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Topic: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
 posted May-05-2007 05:41 AM
   
quote:
Originally posted by Stealth26:
"the aerobic roller coaster." I love this phrase....could be a carnival ride or even a heavymetal band name. leitnerj, if you were a boxer you could use this..... And in this corner, weighing in at 170 pounds, theeeeeee one the only, theeeeeee aerobic roller coaster------jleitner! Just another sick and twisted thought that I had to share. 
Ok, but I'm not the aerobic roller coaster! I just ride them when
I get the chance. ------------------
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted May-05-2007 08:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Ok, but I'm not the aerobic roller coaster! I just ride them when
I get the chance.
Jesse, Are you still planning to ride the aerobic roller coaster at the Frederick marathon tomorrow? Any chance you'd carry a wind screen in front of me The temps look fantastic for May (50-60 during the race) but the winds are 15-20 mph from the NNE, which is basically the orientation of the course. Greg
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-05-2007 09:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gregw:
Jesse,Are you still planning to ride the aerobic roller coaster at the Frederick marathon tomorrow? Any chance you'd carry a wind screen in front of me The temps look fantastic for May (50-60 during the race) but the winds are 15-20 mph from the NNE, which is basically the orientation of the course. Greg
I'll be there. Nothing worse than wind. At least it ain't point
to point! I'm not fully recovered from my brutal mountain race
last weekend, so I won't make a good drafting wall.
------------------
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted May-05-2007 09:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
I'll be there. Nothing worse than wind. At least it ain't point
to point! I'm not fully recovered from my brutal mountain race
last weekend, so I won't make a good drafting wall.
Come on, man. It was only a hundred miles  I'm actually surprised you're going to make it to Frederick, but I guess I shouldn't be. See you there. Greg
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-05-2007 10:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gregw:
Come on, man. It was only a hundred miles I'm actually surprised you're going to make it to Frederick, but I guess I shouldn't be. See you there.Greg
Actually, I recovered from the 100 miler fine, that was no big deal.
Even Boston 2 weeks later was fine. However,
This race beat the living crap out of me! ------------------
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Ace8
Member |
posted May-07-2007 09:47 AM
I have read as much as I could in a short time and want to start MAF-type training this week. My biggest remaining questions concern diet, If anyone can help me with answers or point me in the right direction(s).1. I understand I should not eat carbs within 3 hours before an endurance-building run. What are some examples of what I should eat before a run? Do I eat protein, fat? 2. What is a good night-before-a-long-run dinner? Should I stay away from certain things and include others? Any examples would be helpful. 3. What do you comsume during endurance-building long runs, if anything? Do you use gatorade/gels/clifbloks or do you just do water/electrolyte tablets and let the stored fat do the rest? Thanks very much!
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Mobius
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 10:58 AM
Just an update to share progress.After starting running in March 06 I spent the summer doing some local 5K's. Over the fall/winter I trained up for a pair of half marathons. My first. (march: 1:55 and april: 1:54). I ran a 5K on Saturday -- my first since last fall. I ended up with a 24:07 -- a PR by 2+ minutes. The only disappointing aspect is that it throws off my McMillan calculator curve. I thought I finally had a great base going but a 24:07 maps to a 1:51 HM Still, if that's the worst news, I'll take it! I'll be deviating from MAF over the summer by throwing in some faster work for 5K season plus a few triathlons, then do another base building session this fall I think. My MAF tests have flat lined over the last 3 months so I think it's time to shake things up anyway. PS. The few hot days we've had (upper 80's and humid) have had a significant impact on my pace. I'm losing up to 2 min/mile to maintain MAF. It's painful!
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 11:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ace8:
I have read as much as I could in a short time and want to start MAF-type training this week. My biggest remaining questions concern diet, If anyone can help me with answers or point me in the right direction(s).1. I understand I should not eat carbs within 3 hours before an endurance-building run. What are some examples of what I should eat before a run? Do I eat protein, fat? 2. What is a good night-before-a-long-run dinner? Should I stay away from certain things and include others? Any examples would be helpful. 3. What do you comsume during endurance-building long runs, if anything? Do you use gatorade/gels/clifbloks or do you just do water/electrolyte tablets and let the stored fat do the rest? Thanks very much!
Hi Ace8, Is that name a poker hand reference? Probably not, but I'm a poker player and my first thought goes there. I'll give you my thoughts on your questions: 1. For convenience sake, I've cut that time to 2 hours. 3 is probably better, just not realistic for me all the time. High fiber meals are very healthy. Unfotunately they can also cause runners great stress. Prior to runs or races I try to stick to very low fiber foods. My staple is a white bagel with peanut butter and a banana. 2. Most runners do pasta or another high carb dinner the evening before. I always do high carb the night before and try to make it an early dinner in order to assure it is "gone" before the run begins. Caffeine helps me in that area. 3. This is the area where you'll get the most difference of opinion most likely. I use water and electrolyte tabs only. Prior to a marathon I use gel packets on a couple long runs to be sure my stomach still likes them. During the race I use a few gel packets to keep the mental edge. From what I've read they are more useful in keeping your blood sugar stable which keeps the mental side sharp, than in prolonging your muscle glycogen stores. Best of luck, looking forward to hearing about your progress! ------------------
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Ace8
Member |
posted May-07-2007 03:13 PM
Not poker- just an old pet's name & a number.Thanks for your help! Hopefully I will have good results to share in 3 months. One more question- are there any diet rules after a run? Is gatorade/endurox okay?
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 06:06 PM
I don't really pay much attention to what I eat the day
before a long run, to be honest with you. It's just as simple
for me not to eat anything before a run at all unless I'll
be starting it late. As aharmer said, 2 hours is probably
sufficient. Certainly you can eggs (with bacon if you
like), if you can tolerate that before a run. I'd recommend
you try to see if you can live without eating before your
run, but I know some people just can't do that. I personally
believe that one can acquire the ability to do it with
training.
------------------
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labhiker
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 08:30 PM
I was thinking of posting a very similar question as Ace. What is everyones opinion on drinks/ supplements for training runs greater than 1.5 - 2hr ++? I seem to be confused with the focus of low HR training which teaches the body to consume fat as opposed to sugar and the possible use of supplements during log runs? Being concerned with consuming sugar and possibly conflicting with burning fat for fuel, I used to use a sugar-free sports supplement loaded with only electrolytes (ultima). Although most people seem to use gu's or cliff blocks to pick up an energy boost, I thought it was best to avoid the sugar spike. Does this make sense during training runs? I've heard some interesting things about Accelerade, a 4:1 carbo/protein drink (extended endurance & recovery). I'd like to give it a try but am concerned about the sugar content. Would this type of endurance/ recovery drink conflict with basic MAF training goals? Ahammer - you mentioned using just water and etabs during training runs and then gu during races. Is this primarily to avoid sugar loading during training runs and forcing the body to consume fat for fuel? I know there is no "special drink" to cure all concerns, but wondered if something with sugar would destroy hours of MAF training. As mentioned, Im confused. As MAF training requires more time (due to slower pace) my interest is to maximize results.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 10:11 PM
There's no problem with taking in whatever you want during
training runs - it doesn't break any of the "rules" for this type
of training. I've trained myself not to rely on anything during
runs of 4 hours or less and I think that has helped me. Perhaps
it doesn't make a difference at all (other than the fact that I
can run for four hours, even at a solid pace without any calorie
intake). That's not something I was able to do before. Try
different things - see what works for you. I like accelerade
and I take it in triathlons, but I don't take it in training runs.
------------------
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 10:58 PM
I also don't bother with any nutrition during long runs, or any training run for that matter (not even the run to the fridge on the commercial during The Amazing Race--though I will eat before and after this run). I never bonk or even get hungry. If I'm hungry starting the run, it goes away.--Jimmy @@@@
jog log [This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited May-07-2007).]
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 11:09 PM
On training runs, I do water if it is under 2 hours and add Gatorade if it goes over 2 hours. I did try to up it to 3 hours on just water but then I just wondered why I bothered. On race day, however, I am all over the Gatorade. ------------------
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slowgino
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 11:37 PM
I use Gatorade diluted 3:1 or 4:1 on most training runs. On long runs sometimes just water and Endurolytes (electrolyte replacement), so no calorie input. Did that last year on a 21 miler in August. In the "olden days" I used ERG. Did a 100K when it got to 85 degrees F in the shade and the running was mostly in the sun - just water and ERG.Does anyone have any opinion about whether training in very hot weather (e.g. Death Valley) conditions your body to have less salt in your perspiration?
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 12:11 AM
Here's a bit of a HRM training report:As of right now, my next planned marathon is Boston 2008, using my qualifying time from Philly Marathon in Nov 2006 (window started in September). I'm in a rebuilding phase, just finishing the highest weekly volume since marathon training for Philly--36 miles. Weird how perceptions change, as that seems like a lot now, and feels like a big achievement. I might do a fall marathon, depending on how things go with my current plan. Although, I like the idea of being able to start training for Boston 24 weeks out, instead of cramming in a 12-week schedule in the new year. I'll be running shorter races once a month, following my running club's Grand Prix competition. My first hard race since Philly was the Giunta 5k in Fall River, MA in April. I managed a 21:19 on a tough course with a headwind. Relative to the performance of the field and age group, it was actually my best performance ever in a race (61st of 753, and 11th of 116 in age division). Considering my aerobic fitness, and small base of 25 miles per week average, I was pretty happy with that. Still, I felt directionless and needed to solidify a training program that included a slow volume build-up and aerobic development. Keeping with my experimental approach to training, to see what works what doesn't, I borrowed the idea to use a multi-zone aerobic training approach. First, for fun I did a Conconi LT test, and it confirmed the zone I had been using for a few years for LT runs (87-90%MHR or 173-180 BPM). I read in a few places that the aerobic threshold is about 20 beats less (153-160); this range fell into the long run zone in Advanced Marathoning (73-83% MHR or 145-165 bpm). I also came across this coach named Tinman website, and he recommended his Tinman Tempos. He gave me a pace of 7:42 per mile based on my recent 5k time. Come to find out, this pace puts me almost smack into my LT zone--just 1-2 beats ave lower. So, I've just decided to stick with the LT zone I've been using, letting the zone dictate the pace. Also, I'll be running by time instead of miles for a nice change (the Forerunner 305 will take care of my mileage fix). These are the zones I'll be using: recovery=MAF 140 bpm (71%) and below 45-50 minutes
medium long= 149 bpm (75%) and below MHR 90 minutes
long=160 bpm (81%) and below 2 hours (longer come marathon training)
LT=173-180 bpm (87-90%) 30-40 minutes The training ratios will be: LT=10% (less as mileage builds)
160 and below=90%
149 and below=80% My first two weeks plus a day: date...miles...avpace...peak ave HR
4/23 rest
4/24...8.23....10:51..... 150...76% (90 minutes)
4/25...4.14....10:44......131...66% (45 minutes)
4/26...4.45.....9:38......140...71% (45 minutes)
4/27....12.......9:50......160...80% (2 hours)
4/28 rest
4/29...4.42....10:57......126...64% (50 minutes) week total> 33.24 total time 5:50 4/30...7.05 miles (LT):
warm...2......11:00........138...70%
LT.......4........7:41........178...90% ave HR for run 175
moder..1........8:49........168...85% total time (62 minutes) 5/1 rest
5/2....8.38......10:33.......148...75% (90 minutes)
5/3....4.15......10:30.......138...70% (45 minutes)
5/4.....12..........9:52......160...80% (2 hours)
5/5 rest
5/6....4.41.........9:51......136....68% (45 minutes) week total> 36 total time 6:02 5/7...8 miles (LT):
warm...2......10:26........140..71%
LT.......4........7:41........181...90% ave HR for run 176
moder..2........9:39........160...81% total time (70 minutes) I'll keep you posted on progress using this system. This system is sort of a cross between Maffetone, Parker, Mark Allen (75%) and Pfitzinger (minus the V02max intervals). It's the Maffparkmarkingerelle program. I know some people have had questions as to what happens if you go over MAF for a few miles per week. Well, I'll be going over the 75% for about 15-20% of total milage, and over the 81% for only 10% or less.
I'll be a Guineau pig, and show you what happens to my aerobic fitness, training paces, and race times. Keep going! --Jimmy @@@@
jog log [This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited May-08-2007).]
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 07:30 AM
Hey Jimmy,Sounds similar to what I'm doing. Very different, but very similar...I know you're a deep thinker so what do you make of that? Anyway, I've had tremendous success with mine...can't wait to hear how yours goes. Adam ------------------
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 08:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aharmer:
Hey Jimmy,Sounds similar to what I'm doing. Very different, but very similar...I know you're a deep thinker so what do you make of that?
We're like...cunnected.
Maybe it was you in that dream I had that told me to do this. This man, wearing nothing but a fig leaf, was chasing me, throwing apples off the back of my head, yelling "you're still aerobic!" Well, he was doing some serious harm to the back of my head. Finally, I realized I was dreaming, stopped, turned to him and said "Why are you chasing me and throwing apples?" The man stopped and said "Eve, tell him." Suddenly, a Botticellian Eve appeared, wearing a fig leaf evening gown and she said "Here's the scoop, macho man. 4 zones, nothing above anaerobic threshold, and you'll be good to go, secure, for another year, and by the way could you add to this inbred gene pool that's beginning to happen in my sicko family? Don't even get me started on Cain..." Well, like usual, I woke up before Eve and I started a new DNA line in the human race.
Yup...cunnected. --Jimmy Just downloaded my first copy ever of American Beauty--inspired by Classic Albums on VH1. It will be a day of Jerry, Phil, Bob, and Pigpen... @@@@
jog log [This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited May-08-2007).]
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monikam
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 09:53 AM
Good Morning..I'm a newbie to LHR training.. just started this week. According to MAF formula 180-age I should be maxing at 145. It's now my second day and I'm slowly easing into running at such low intensity level. Today I managed to average at 154. Eventually my goal is to run at 140-145. In old days I was running easy at 10:30mm, today I ran at 16mm so it's quite an adjustment.. My question is regarding my first MAF test. When should I do it and what HR should I do it at?? My understanding is I should do it when I'm well rested and at the max HR of 145.. Is that right? Also what mileage should I do during the test? Currently I'm running 30mpw, 4-6 miles daily and 10 miles on my long run.
------------------
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 10:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by monikam:
Good Morning..I'm a newbie to LHR training.. just started this week. According to MAF formula 180-age I should be maxing at 145. It's now my second day and I'm slowly easing into running at such low intensity level. Today I managed to average at 154. Eventually my goal is to run at 140-145. In old days I was running easy at 10:30mm, today I ran at 16mm so it's quite an adjustment.. My question is regarding my first MAF test. When should I do it and what HR should I do it at?? My understanding is I should do it when I'm well rested and at the max HR of 145.. Is that right? Also what mileage should I do during the test? Currently I'm running 30mpw, 4-6 miles daily and 10 miles on my long run.
Do one soon so you have a benchmark with which you can compare. If you have access to a treadmill, use that. Gives you control over more variables. Do a warm-up of 1-2 miles, getting your HR up to a zone of 143-147. Then everytime you feel the HR is hanging to much around 146-147, and you're not seeing, 143-144 anymore, slow the speed down.
You want to average 145. Or you could just slow down as soon as you start seeing 146 for longer than a blip. A 3-5 mile test is fine (I prefer a 5 miler). Just do the same exact thing every time you do it. As you go along, you should see a drop in the discrepancy between the pace of the first mile and the last (decay), and an improvement in pace. Don't freak if one time you seemed to have gotten worse, just give it time, and you'll see an overall improvement (if you are building your miles a bit). Any HR method where you are staying "down there" will be slow at first, but stick with it. It'll pay off bigtime. --Jimmy Jog Log
zzzzzzz
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monikam
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 10:37 AM
Awesome!!! Thanks Jimmy!!------------------
"It's never too early, it's never too cold and it's never too far... I AM A RUNNER" Monika
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 11:25 AM
You're welcome.
--jj
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slowgino
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 01:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by monikam:
Good Morning..
I'm a newbie to LHR training.. just started this week. According to MAF formula 180-age I should be maxing at 145...My question is regarding my first MAF test. When should I do it and what HR should I do it at?? My understanding is I should do it when I'm well rested and at the max HR of 145.. Is that right? Also what mileage should I do during the test?
You should do a MAF test soon so you have a base benchmark from which to measure progress. Make sure you decide on a format/regime for the test so you can do the same test format every time. Mileage is not as critically important as repeating the same test. You might do a 5 mile run, keeping the HR constant and recording split/lap times. You might do 4 or 5 mile repeats, with a controlled recovery down to a particular lower HR in between, recording split times for it all. Etc. I use that second method, because I like to see the improvement in the HR recovery times. If you have somewhere you can do it indoors, out of the weather, that will make it easier to have the same test conditions when the weather gets nasty. Based on your profile, mpw, etc, your 180-age number will probably be ok to start with. You can raise it later if test results indicate that (I think there's an algorithm in Mafetone.) Be aware that this number does not always give folks their Aerobic Threshold (AeT) exactly. In the little database I have of VO2 test results, here are the Aerobic Thresholds for the 8 people aged 34-36: 161,134,137,157,167,169,133,134 Oh, that 161 AeT is for a 34 year old woman, who had a max measured VO2 of 47.3 at an HR of 182. Yes, that's 15 bpm higher than what the 180 formula would have given her. If you really want to pin down the HR training ranges, you can get VO2 tested some time. That might make sense, e.g., if your MAF test results seem to hit a plateau after a while and don't change for a few months. Good luck with your running, it seems like you're doing great.
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Long Run Nick
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 03:39 PM
Great info. I sheepishly add that over the last few days I read the whole damn thing. I appreciate the initiation of the thread by Jesse--even the threads from a couple of years ago.I have posted for the last several years mostly on the Newbie Forum. My simple message has been to slow down--it is ok to walk, to have fun, and not get too serious and make running a life long pursuit. Having just begun my 32nd year of very consistent running (over 63,600 miles--and counting) I was very fortunate to stumble across a guy by the name of Tom Osler. He wrote a small pamphlet titled "Conditioning of the Long Distance Runner" back in the late 60's. I read it in early 1976 and it made sense. He followed that with a book on Ultra Marathoning--in the late 70's. Mix in Joe Henderson who used the phrase LSD--Long Slow Distance and I was lucky to follow their lead. Pre-Maffetone--I think. I attibute my longevity to basically running 2-3 minutes slower than race pace after warming up at 4-5 minutes slower than race pace. I have competed in over 400 races (15 marathons) and numerous Ultras. Osler recommended a run/walk approach for long runs. He ran 10 walked 5. I got to a point of running 27 min/walk 3. It worked. In my mid 40's(after 10 yrs of running) I ran in the low 18's 5K(PR 17:46)/low 37's 10K(PR36:41)/ 3:16 marathon and 8-9 hour 50 milers (PR 8:12). Most of this with little if any speed work. My main speed work was racing. I rarely ran more than 50 miles per week nor less than 40 miles per week. 1 injury--Plantar F--back in'97. Brought me to my knees. No running for several months. I biked. Now, as I close in on turning 64 I run 5K's around 22:30 and 10K's in the mid 46's. I ran my first marathon in 21 years back in February. I wanted a sub 4hr(BQ)--ended up with a 4:07.
Never thought much about HR. When Polar came out with theirs--I got one. I was amazed that once I figured out my HR Max I found I had been doing most of my running at 65-70% of my Max. For years my max was 207--even into my mid 50's. At 63+ my max is 200. I have communicated with Jesse recently and he is going to assist me as I give the MAF approach a shot. That 180-63 leaves me at 117+5 = 122 Yikes!! I will listen to what Jesse recommends and fiddle with it. Oh, rambling is authorized once you are eligible for Social Security. A final point. Most posts on this thread are about the here and now. Once in awhile look down the road a decade or 2. Don't get too wired about this Fall's race--think about Boston in 2027 or so. I hope most of you will be still running. Take it easy or you will join the biggest running club in the world: "I Use To Run But......Club". Remember start off EZ---then back off. Nick PS Thanks again to Jesse/Jimmy and all the knowledgeable folks that have added to this thread.
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Docster
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 04:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
Great info. I sheepishly add that over the last few days I read the whole damn thing. I appreciate the initiation of the thread by Jesse--even the threads from a couple of years ago.I have posted for the last several years mostly on the Newbie Forum. My simple message has been to slow down--it is ok to walk, to have fun, and not get too serious and make running a life long pursuit. Having just begun my 32nd year of very consistent running (over 63,600 miles--and counting) I was very fortunate to stumble across a guy by the name of Tom Osler. He wrote a small pamphlet titled "Conditioning of the Long Distance Runner" back in the late 60's. I read it in early 1976 and it made sense. He followed that with a book on Ultra Marathoning--in the late 70's. Mix in Joe Henderson who used the phrase LSD--Long Slow Distance and I was lucky to follow their lead. Pre-Maffetone--I think. I attibute my longevity to basically running 2-3 minutes slower than race pace after warming up at 4-5 minutes slower than race pace. I have competed in over 400 races (15 marathons) and numerous Ultras. Osler recommended a run/walk approach for long runs. He ran 10 walked 5. I got to a point of running 27 min/walk 3. It worked. In my mid 40's(after 10 yrs of running) I ran in the low 18's 5K(PR 17:46)/low 37's 10K(PR36:41)/ 3:16 marathon and 8-9 hour 50 milers (PR 8:12). Most of this with little if any speed work. My main speed work was racing. I rarely ran more than 50 miles per week nor less than 40 miles per week. 1 injury--Plantar F--back in'97. Brought me to my knees. No running for several months. I biked. Now, as I close in on turning 64 I run 5K's around 22:30 and 10K's in the mid 46's. I ran my first marathon in 21 years back in February. I wanted a sub 4hr(BQ)--ended up with a 4:07.
Never thought much about HR. When Polar came out with theirs--I got one. I was amazed that once I figured out my HR Max I found I had been doing most of my running at 65-70% of my Max. For years my max was 207--even into my mid 50's. At 63+ my max is 200. I have communicated with Jesse recently and he is going to assist me as I give the MAF approach a shot. That 180-63 leaves me at 117+5 = 122 Yikes!! I will listen to what Jesse recommends and fiddle with it. Oh, rambling is authorized once you are eligible for Social Security. A final point. Most posts on this thread are about the here and now. Once in awhile look down the road a decade or 2. Don't get too wired about this Fall's race--think about Boston in 2027 or so. I hope most of you will be still running. Take it easy or you will join the biggest running club in the world: "I Use To Run But......Club". Remember start off EZ---then back off. Nick PS Thanks again to Jesse/Jimmy and all the knowledgeable folks that have added to this thread.
Amazing number of years and miles, Nick. Good luck in your expriment. I look forward to keeping an eye on how things go!
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