posted Nov-14-2006 04:24 AM               

1)is one allowed a cup of cofee with milk or is this going to cause the body to use carbs ?

2) will it damage the maff training if one gives it a push once in a while ie how many races will affect aerobic capacity

3) how long before a mrathon should one stay with this method of training as opposed to adding in tempo intervals etc

tia

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posted Nov-14-2006 05:10 AM            

As a middle aged "back-of-pack" runner I have seen significant improvements in endurance and fitness over the past year. Last week I achieved a personal goal as my weekly training exceeded 40mpw (this may seem low to most, but it was a personal goal for me). In doing so Im thinking that the extra miles may key to seeing improvements with a low HR training program. Same with forcing yourself to keep the entire long run at sub-MAF pace.

While adopting this training approach it bothers me that I am always focused on slowing down to keep within a desired sub-MAF zone. Is this common or does it go away with time as additional aerobic fitness is achieved?

Second question - Based on all I have read Im a believer in the benefits of basebuilding and low HR training. How come so little seems to be published on the subject and most everything we read in running mags or books seems to focus on introducing the concepts of speed work and more agressive workout programs?

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posted Nov-14-2006 07:54 AM               

In my opinion, the trick is to teach yourself to not get frustrated by the paces and the cardiac drift. You'll always be forced to slow down to some extent during runs. As your aerobic capacity improves those paces will simply start and end at a faster pace. Some people find that their "drift" diminishes as well with improved fitness. I look at it as a positive...I get to slow down AND it improves my fitness at the same time. We've all been programmed to view slowing down as a negative event, so it takes some time to overcome that feeling.

As far as the publications go...I'm not sure why this kind of training isn't published more often. Might have to do with your comments above...people find it frustrating so these magazines don't want to be the ones to advocate using it. Or it could be because it isn't a quick fix program. If people read that they might have to prepare for longer than 18 weeks for a marathon they might not buy the magazine.

Great job on the mileage milestone and good luck with Maff!

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posted Nov-14-2006 07:55 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by labhiker:
Being a new post I want to start by thanking all the experienced MAFers who share advice and comment on this forum. Ive been following the post for some time and greatly appreciate all the input & comment concerning low heart rate training and hope that one day I can share similar results. Thanks.

As a middle aged "back-of-pack" runner I have seen significant improvements in endurance and fitness over the past year. Last week I achieved a personal goal as my weekly training exceeded 40mpw (this may seem low to most, but it was a personal goal for me). In doing so Im thinking that the extra miles may key to seeing improvements with a low HR training program. Same with forcing yourself to keep the entire long run at sub-MAF pace.

While adopting this training approach it bothers me that I am always focused on slowing down to keep within a desired sub-MAF zone. Is this common or does it go away with time as additional aerobic fitness is achieved?

Second question - Based on all I have read Im a believer in the benefits of basebuilding and low HR training. How come so little seems to be published on the subject and most everything we read in running mags or books seems to focus on introducing the concepts of speed work and more agressive workout programs?

---

It doesn't seem low to me. I think it's a pretty good milestone.

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posted Nov-14-2006 09:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by footsie:
question time

1)is one allowed a cup of cofee with milk or is this going to cause the body to use carbs ?

2) will it damage the maff training if one gives it a push once in a while ie how many races will affect aerobic capacity

3) how long before a mrathon should one stay with this method of training as opposed to adding in tempo intervals etc

tia

---

1) I don't think a dab of milk in your coffee is going to make much of a difference. I use about a tablespoon of fat free half and half in mine (1.5 carbs).

2) You need to experiment with that. I find my aerobic base wilts after about 6-8 weeks of racing, though I tend to cut mileage down during that period as well which is a factor. The idea of base-training is to have a solid base period of 8-12 weeks or more. A few tempo runs probably wouldn't hurt, and you can experiment with that, but the point is to charge your aerobic system. So that's up to you and whether or not you have the mental fortitiude or will to hold yourself back for at least 8 weeks.

3) I usually have a 12-16 week aerobic base period in the winter, followed by 6-8 weeks leading into the spring marathon of racepace tempo runs, lactate threshold runs, and a few tune-up races. This faster stuff still only makes up 10-15% of total miles. The rest is around 141 bpm or below. I'll then race for awhile into summer. Then I do another 8 week period, followed by 6 weeks of faster (10-15%). My experience with working with MAF has been interesting. After the base period, adding the faster stuff is like lighting aerobic dynamite. I can't say if it's the 180-age formula or working at 72% MHR and below (or 65% HRR and below). I lean more towards the %MHR of %HRR, as I think the formula is just a tool that will gat the majority of runners down into their fat-burning zones, how big of a majority I can't say.

It still comes down to working those slow-twitch fibers for a period of time. Whatever the zone is that works best for you is, you might choose to find it and try hanging out there for 12 weeks, then add some fast stuff, but not too much. Or keep doing what you're doing if that's working.

Keep going!
May your races be monuments to flow.

--Jimmy

Current Marathon Training
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MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

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posted Nov-14-2006 10:34 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by running411searcher:
Chris....

Hmmmm that doesn't seem right to me. Are you taking stimulants? (lol j/k). If you do take caffiene before running it would be good to know this! How much do you weigh? Are you overweight by chance? Are you a nervous runner?

How long are your long runs? If you're going 10 miles max, I'd suggest slowing your pace down and really work it up to 15 miles. The long long runs at low heart rates will help you tremendously. There is a ton of scientific literature on this. You increase capillary density, aerobic base, etc. during these long runs. You'll want your long run to be done for AT LEAST 1 hour 30 min.

Not enough long runs = not enough endurance = not enough aerobic base = high heart rate.

Anyone agree with me on this?

---

I made this run about 2 hours after eating dinner (turkey hot dogs) and was about 5 hours after my last cup of coffee. I'm 6'1" and weight 170 and am at 17% body fat.

I thought the actualy HR number doesn't mean much and the "ideal" HR will be different between people. I also thought the goal here is to have a run at an HR for which the pace does not slow. A weak aerobic system will have a slow decline in pace or increase in HR, right? For my MAF test, I finished the 5'th mile with the best pace and I ended it at about the 1:15 mark of the run, with this run being 1:32 long.

Do you really think I need to slow down more? I'm not sure it matters, but my maxHR is 205 and from field tests, I put my LT/AT around 185 (I've had 2 hour bike/run triathlon segment in the mid 180 aveHR range).

Thanks for your interest.

Chris

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posted Nov-14-2006 02:19 PM               

I stopped messing about and really started MAF training properly (i hope) just a few months ago. My mileage has gone up and my pace has come down from over 14:00 miles to yesterday when I managed an 11:56 average on an 8 miler.
Beevee don't give up keep at it. A number from the Boomer thread use this type of training, including Cashmason and Jura and everyone eventually reaps the rewards but patience is the key. That is why I said 'I stopped messing about,' as I use to get frustrated and would all of a sudden throw in the towel, train faster, get injured and tired, reduce mileage, skip training days and so on and so on.
It really works if you stick at it, it will all come together.
I am going to run a marathon, not until next Oct but it is my intention just to MAF train for it.
Roy

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posted Nov-14-2006 02:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth26:
Originally posted by Beevee:
It seems that some of you, like Stealth26, are seeing amazing results very quickly with the MAF approach. Congratulations Stealth26. Your results are really
encouraging.

Beeve,
I didn,t fully begin MAF 100% until 9/20/06,

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I started on 8/31/06 and I am about to finish up my first 12 weeks. I am up to 28 miles a week and that is really an accomplishment for me personally. I would never have seen my mileage that high without doing MAF.

quote:

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I have never been a fast runner nor had I ever liked running for distance. Hmmm, something has changed. I'm not a fast runner but the distance thing is starting to look better. I started reading this thread, bought a few books and am still slow, but improving.

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I am not fast, never have been, never will be. But I would like to see 10mm again and be able to maintain those minute miles like never before. I have discovered, like you, that I have the endurance to go long. I read everything I can get my hands on too, and that can start putting doubts in my mind, that’s why I quoted from Hadd earlier. I just need to be patient and let it work for me.

quote:

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I ended last year (05) with asthma, 5'8"at 230+ pounds, smoked, had the worst diet in the world. I had a hard time just walking up steps. I needed a change! Now at 191 pounds, no cigs (almost a year), a good diet, 1040 miles under my belt. I may not be fast, but I plan on being able to go the distance. MAF may not make you faster......It will make you stronger.

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Okay, now your results are not just encouraging, they are downright impressive! Wow! Good for you, and thanks again for your encouragement. I look forward to your future posts.

quote:

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In 07 (GOD willing) I plan on a full 26.2, I plan on finishing around 4:30ish. Slow for some, fast for others, just right for me. My MAF number is 135bpm (145-10), sometmes it will go to 140bpm. I figure if on a bad day since it is MAF-10....I can't ever go over 145bpm. I've cheated a couple of times...couldn't resist with winter coming and all.

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My first goal in 2007 is a 10K at the end of May, and I have no clue as to how I will do. I hope after 24 weeks of MAF ending in February, and then another 12 weeks before the end of May, I will see results remarkable for me, just me, and they don’t have to be spectacular results, just enough to keep me encouraged, keep me MAFing and have my running buddies believers.
Thanks again for your insights and your encouragement.
Bev

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posted Nov-14-2006 03:23 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by roy c:
Hi
Jesse thanks for restarting the thread, it's so useful.

I stopped messing about and really started MAF training properly (i hope) just a few months ago. My mileage has gone up and my pace has come down from over 14:00 miles to yesterday when I managed an 11:56 average on an 8 miler.
Beevee don't give up keep at it. A number from the Boomer thread use this type of training, including Cashmason and Jura and everyone eventually reaps the rewards but patience is the key. That is why I said 'I stopped messing about,' as I use to get frustrated and would all of a sudden throw in the towel, train faster, get injured and tired, reduce mileage, skip training days and so on and so on.
It really works if you stick at it, it will all come together.
I am going to run a marathon, not until next Oct but it is my intention just to MAF train for it.
Roy

---

Thanks Roy! I have watched your progress here and mainly on the Boomer board. I am such a lurker!
I tried Parker Jr. last fall and saw results very quickly, but I stopped after a month or two. That is why I can't let my running buddies, or my impatience sway me this time. This is for me and I know it is the right thing for me. If I don't do this, I will stop running altogether and I don't want to stop. I am at a weekly mileage (and increasing) that let's me know I am on the right track. I appreciate your words because my experience is similar. I did an 8 mile run in July and I couldn’t run for a week after that. I have done a few 8 milers in the past weeks and I am up and going again the next day with very few complaints. I whine and gripe about the walking though. I can’t wait to post that I am truly running. I will have a new appreciation for wogging when it comes!
Thanks again Roy, and good luck to you with MAF and your marathon goal.
Bev

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posted Nov-14-2006 05:09 PM               

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posted Nov-14-2006 07:43 PM            

But as a runner with 40 years and a 100,000 miles on my legs eventually nothing really makes sense except slow running. The slower the better. All of my fast races come after prolonged periods of slow running. I do run time trials of 2-3 miles when I get close to racing but that is it. Everything else is low heart rate training. So I don't run at pure MAF but I do run somewhere between MAF and what is considered 70% of max (heart rate reserve method). So MAF says 124 and 70% of true max is 152 so I run much of my training in the 130-135 range and if I stick to that, I run fairly fast for a guy closing in on 60. I am in low to mid 18 minute 5K shape right now. If I run speed work or push up my HR on my daily runs that quickly slides into the 19's. So the choice is simple.

I train alone most of the time because none of my colleague will train that slow but i can beat them in races. It befuddles me as much as it does them but I don't argue with what works.

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posted Nov-14-2006 08:12 PM               

Here I've wasted valuable running time giong too fast. I guess I don't want to think of myself as older or slower. Although I was nver a speed demon. So I guess I'll stick to the 70%HRR type plan and see what happens. After all I can't get slower!

I'd like to build my base to 20-25 miles a week. I'm hitting the TM. FWIW the room I train on is usually around 70 deg F so that should help when the warmer weather comes back around in New England. Just wanted to vent I guess but if anyone has suggestions please give them to me! Thanks!

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posted Nov-15-2006 01:02 AM               

More info: I do all my MAF tests on a treadmill. All MAF #s are taken in real time. This keeps me honest. If HR is high when the mile is up it is documented as such, this makes me try to keep my HR steady even more, all conditions are kept as neutral as possible for my MAF tests. During the weeks between tests I will let the numbers move a little more (very little 2 to 3bpm) toward the end of longer runs I seem to get some drift of +/-5/7bpm. Hills are getting better, big ones are still challenging. My HR seems more stable now than it was when I started. In 5 weeks I will be done with the 1st 12 weeks of MAF, I am planning on having a free week of running, a whatever, whenever, however I want to run week, then I think I will go back into another 8 to 12 weeks of MAF. This will bring me into the begining of March 07. Consecutive 10min/miles are also my current goal, whether for 10 miles or more. I can only pray and hope the running gods are listening. Good luck to you Beevee, and please do keep us up to date on your progress.

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posted Nov-15-2006 06:35 PM            

In logging low HR training miles and building a base does anyone follow a specific program or mileage plan? I

have been simply following the basic mileage plans (marathon) listed on cool running @ a MAF - 5 goal throughout. The plan seems to cycle weekly miles up for 2-3 weeks, back down a week and then start building again. For the most part this seems to break things up a little.

Following the advice of prior posts I now consider the easy downhills to be the time for speed work or simply rapid turn over. Prior to this advice I tended to simply rest on downhills.

Im curious how others more experienced MAF's have approached a specific training schedule?

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posted Nov-15-2006 06:52 PM               

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posted Nov-17-2006 11:12 AM            

You just need more miles. You hit it on the head. 12-15 mpw is not enough. Gradually raise your miles (maybe a mile a week) until you are at 25-30. So what if it takes 10-15 weeks. You will get there.

Right now you do not have the aerobic capacity to carry out your relative speed. I ran 70-80 mpw in my best days with much of it slow running. I used races for speedwork. I was more of a Joe Henderson long slow distance guy rather than a MAF guy (we didn't have HRM"s back then).
I did OK on that type of training running a low 15 minute 5K all the way to a 2:28 marathon.

These day I run half that amount (max) and still run most of it slow. I know that if I dropped to 12-15 mpw I woud be much much slower. It's enough for cardiace fitness but not enough to run faster on.

Raider

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posted Nov-17-2006 05:29 PM               

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posted Nov-18-2006 08:35 AM            

I've read Maffetone and Allen's articles, and I'm waiting on a copy of Maffetones book to arrive, but is there any reason I can't get started with the information that I have now?

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posted Nov-18-2006 10:27 AM               

Be warned the first few weeks are reallly frustrating as you will be force to go so slow that snails will jump up and bite you on the ankles, and granny's in their walkers will pass you.

If you stick with it you will be able to run many more miles than you do now and eventually you will be faster and the running will be easier.

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posted Nov-18-2006 08:57 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by kponds:
Is there any thing I need to know to just jump into this other than to never go above my MAF and to not eat carbs right before a run?

I've read Maffetone and Allen's articles, and I'm waiting on a copy of Maffetones book to arrive, but is there any reason I can't get started with the information that I have now?

---

Cash is right - I should mention that I added one more FAQ to the end
that provides a nutshell for what you can do.

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posted Nov-18-2006 09:28 PM            

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posted Nov-18-2006 09:49 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Tommytwolegs:
I'm brand new to MAF ... just "officially" starting my 1st base-building cycle ... so I want to be sure about this detail I've not seen answered or been able to figure out on my own.---
When I run on my treadmill (about half the days), I like to use a box fan to keep me cool. I know from experimenting that for the same pace it drops my HR about 5 points when it's on, so I would need to adjust my HR down for that or run without the fan, right?

---

no, you don't need to adjust anything. It's a heat acclimation issue-
if you ran without the fan for a while, your heart rate would eventually
be basically the same with or without it. But, it really doesn't matter
as long as you stay below MAF, avoiding or using cooling methodologies.

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posted Nov-19-2006 07:53 AM               

here is my Maffetone test done 10 mins ago compared to my first test which was done 5 weeks after i started
first TODAY

LAP 1 5:45 5:05
LAP 2 6:06 5:14
LAP 3 6:22 5:39
LAP 4 6:54 5:47
LAP 5 7:05 5:47
LAP 6 7:36 5:51
LAP 7 7:56 5:56
LAP 8 7:50 5:58

6:16 pace 5:40 pace

Leitner why did my rate of decline slow down after the 5km mark ??

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posted Nov-19-2006 08:11 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by footsie:
for all you doubters out there I gave been maffing for approx 3 months besides less pain I have got faster at the same effort level

here is my Maffetone test done 10 mins ago compared to my first test which was done 5 weeks after i started
first TODAY

LAP 1 5:45 5:05
LAP 2 6:06 5:14
LAP 3 6:22 5:39
LAP 4 6:54 5:47
LAP 5 7:05 5:47
LAP 6 7:36 5:51
LAP 7 7:56 5:56
LAP 8 7:50 5:58

6:16 pace 5:40 pace

Leitner why did my rate of decline slow down after the 5km mark ??

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Well, I could pretend that I know the real answer, but I can
only say that if it's not excessively hot and the overall distance
is not too long, I generally reach a steady state after 4 or 5 miles
or so, where my heart rate drifts very slowly. In the first few
miles there are a lot transients that will eventually die out.

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posted Nov-19-2006 08:46 AM               

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susan

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