posted May-01-2007 01:30 PM               

IP: Logged

posted May-01-2007 01:47 PM            

Thank you for answering my questions. I ultimately would like to do an ultra, so I find your perspective especially helpful.

Today's a rest day for me and I feel great! I'm sure that the slower running the last couple of days is responsible.

Thanks again.

IP: Logged

posted May-01-2007 06:31 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:
leitnerj, I'm interested in the whole Maffetone thing, and also interested in your great race improvements. Could you post some more info about yourself, to give a better idea of what type runner you are? i.e. height, weight, age, build.

---

Most of the stuff is on my "my stuff" link (37, 170 lbs, 5' 10", somewhat
heavy-set, at least for someone who runs 70 mpw and rides for 100 more).
About 4 years ago, I weighed about 220 and couldn't run a 1/4 mile.
2 years ago, I was struggling to crack 4 hrs in a marathon, although
I was running plenty of long runs, plenty of weekly mileage, and I was
plenty fast. Most of my data, running logs, etc., you can get from
one of the links in my signature, but if there's something else you
want to see, just let me know and I'm sure I'll be happy to provide.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted May-01-2007 07:08 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by monk03:
Hi folks. 55 year old male here. Running approximately 12 miles a week. 3 miles or so a run. I'd like to increase the distance I'm running to 25-30 a week in hopes of a half marathon. Is MAF for me? My Max Hr is 190. I'm figuring on doing walking and running if I do MAF. However, at my lowdistance and even low distance hopes is it worth doing for me? Should I do something else?

---

I think the real way to tell if it is for you is to try it for a couple of
weeks and see what happens. It's definitely a very safe way to build
up mileage. It really doesn't matter what your max heart rate is, but
at 55, if you're not taking meds or anything, you'll use a target HR of
around 125-130.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted May-01-2007 07:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:
leitnerj, I'm interested in the whole Maffetone thing, and also interested in your great race improvements. Could you post some more info about yourself, to give a better idea of what type runner you are? i.e. height, weight, age, build.

---

13aquared
Click on the MyStuff link at the end of one of his post.

[This message has been edited by Ewart Harris (edited May-01-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted May-01-2007 07:57 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
Jesse,

Thank you for answering my questions. I ultimately would like to do an ultra, so I find your perspective especially helpful.

Today's a rest day for me and I feel great! I'm sure that the slower running the last couple of days is responsible.

Thanks again.

---

Happy to pass on my experiences because there are many others
just like me in many ways. Feel free to post your questions - there
are a lot of good (and bad) experiences around here. Once you enter
the ultra world, you'll never turn back.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted May-02-2007 01:14 PM            

Okay, here's my stuff:
32yo male, 5'9", highest weight was 6 years ago when i was at 265+, last year I was at 205, now at 185pounds (looking to drop to 170 by Columbus Marathon in October).

Race results:
5k -- 21:47, 7:04/mi
Half -- 1:54:22, 8:43/mi
Full -- 4:05:43, 9:20/mi.
I was starving through the last 6-7 miles of the marathon. Had to alternate walk/running starting at mile 22.

Not sure what you can tell from this, but is it worth giving Maff a try? My 'natural' pace on most runs tends to be in the 8:35-8:40 range but i always feel just on the edge of going 'too fast' all the time. I can carry on most of a conversation though.

I am currently without a hrm but i've had one in the past. My heart rate on most runs would be 150 to 160 on training runs.

IP: Logged

posted May-02-2007 02:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:
Thanks for the response. Must have been me, but every time I clicked on the 'my stuff' link it would go to a 'couldn't connect' sort of screen. Today's click worked though.

Okay, here's my stuff:
32yo male, 5'9", highest weight was 6 years ago when i was at 265+, last year I was at 205, now at 185pounds (looking to drop to 170 by Columbus Marathon in October).

Race results:
5k -- 21:47, 7:04/mi
Half -- 1:54:22, 8:43/mi
Full -- 4:05:43, 9:20/mi.
I was starving through the last 6-7 miles of the marathon. Had to alternate walk/running starting at mile 22.

Not sure what you can tell from this, but is it worth giving Maff a try? My 'natural' pace on most runs tends to be in the 8:35-8:40 range but i always feel just on the edge of going 'too fast' all the time. I can carry on most of a conversation though.

I am currently without a hrm but i've had one in the past. My heart rate on most runs would be 150 to 160 on training runs.

---

Your marathon and half times compared to your 5k time indicate a lack of aerobic development. Based on that 5k time you could easily be down below 3:40 with a good 12-16 week aerobic base period keeping below the MAF or 75% MHR as Mark Allen prescribes.

Your MAF would be 148 + 5 for good behaviour= 155 bpm. Just stay below that.

Be prepared to experience a slow down in the beginning as you try to keep below that number. You can do these runs one of two ways:

--You can try to stay around 150-155 the whole time, slowing down to stay under.

--You get to around 135 by the end of the 3rd mile, then hold that pace. Most likely you'll top out around 150-155. This depends on distance. You can experiment with this. I prefer this method as you can practice an even pace, and as you get fitter, you will be speeding up n the latter part of the run.

I got down to 3:22 PR last November at Philly, keeping under MAF -10 beats for a solid 8 weeks, then bringing in some higher heart rates in the last 6-8 weeks leading to the marathon. I also did a 12 week block of pure MAF at the beginning of the year.

Building weeekly miles and long runs are key to progress.

Spending a good block of time on your aerobic system will pay off big time on all race distances. Try it.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

IP: Logged

posted May-02-2007 02:45 PM            

IP: Logged

posted May-02-2007 06:28 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:

Okay, here's my stuff:
32yo male, 5'9", highest weight was 6 years ago when i was at 265+, last year I was at 205, now at 185pounds (looking to drop to 170 by Columbus Marathon in October).

Race results:
5k -- 21:47, 7:04/mi
Half -- 1:54:22, 8:43/mi
Full -- 4:05:43, 9:20/mi.
I was starving through the last 6-7 miles of the marathon. Had to alternate walk/running starting at mile 22.

Not sure what you can tell from this, but is it worth giving Maff a try? My 'natural' pace on most runs tends to be in the 8:35-8:40 range but i always feel just on the edge of going 'too fast' all the time. I can carry on most of a conversation though.

I am currently without a hrm but i've had one in the past. My heart rate on most runs would be 150 to 160 on training runs.

---

Your numbers above are almost exactly what mine were a couple of
years ago.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted May-02-2007 09:47 PM            

My natural pace was about 8:40; but I did a lot of runs at 9:00 or slower to build aerobic capacity.

If you read the posts in here, if you're not in great shape w/high cardiac capacity you'll have heart rate drift over time. Maffetone seems to consider this "natural", but I think its a function of not being in ideal shape.

For me, when I was doing 35 MPW, I'd have a heart rate of 140 at about 8:45 pace for the first 5 miles, but then the pace would slide at the same heart rate - and by mile 15 I'd be running 10:00 pace for a HR of 140.

Now, I run 50-55 miles/week, and my heart rate stays at 140 for 8:40 pace for 15 miles and beyond - no degradation.

As such, I can keep up a stronger pace for longer distances.

I still train occasionally slower. Today I ran 10.5 miles in 1:44:20 with an average HR of only 124.

IP: Logged

posted May-02-2007 10:07 PM            

5k on 4/14/07 24:47

Marathon on 4/29/07 3:48:22

These are both PR's (it was my first 5k). Expound.

------------------
***********
My myspace
No Complaining
My User Profile
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...

IP: Logged

posted May-02-2007 10:39 PM            

You're 6'0", 140 pounds - so the lightness gives you a lot of endurance w/o weight to carry around?

The 5K was in 80 degree weather, but the marathon was in 50 degree weather?

The 5K was hilly, but the marathon was flat?

Lots of ideas... but need more details.

Just as an example, I could say I ran a 21:00 5K last year and a 6:18 marathon - and ask what gives? Most people would say I'm in desperate need of long runs/aerobic capacity. But the 5K was on a flat course at 750' above sea level. The marathon was the Leadville marathon, starting at 10,152' and peaking at 13,200' or so - and I had no acclimation.

I doubt your differences are this extreme, but gotta know the extenuating circumstances.

IP: Logged

posted May-02-2007 10:57 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dfcameron:
Hmmm... about 2 years ago, I could run a 5K in 21:33, but a half in 1:37 and a marathon in 3:27.

My natural pace was about 8:40; but I did a lot of runs at 9:00 or slower to build aerobic capacity.

If you read the posts in here, if you're not in great shape w/high cardiac capacity you'll have heart rate drift over time. Maffetone seems to consider this "natural", but I think its a function of not being in ideal shape.

For me, when I was doing 35 MPW, I'd have a heart rate of 140 at about 8:45 pace for the first 5 miles, but then the pace would slide at the same heart rate - and by mile 15 I'd be running 10:00 pace for a HR of 140.

Now, I run 50-55 miles/week, and my heart rate stays at 140 for 8:40 pace for 15 miles and beyond - no degradation.

As such, I can keep up a stronger pace for longer distances.

I still train occasionally slower. Today I ran 10.5 miles in 1:44:20 with an average HR of only 124.

---

dfcameron,

I see very similar results. Next week will be my 1-year Maf anniversary. In the beginning I had severe pace erosion. Today my runs are very stable and I actually speed up at the same HR after about 5 miles many times.

I have a buddy who trains with me occasionally. He only runs "slow" when he's with me. A year ago we would run 15 miles together and our HR's maintained the same gap for the entire run. Today that gap is the same for the first couple miles but widens significantly as we go further.

------------------
My Profile

"Pain is temporary. Regret hurts forever."
http://www.hrmarathontraining.blogspot.com/

IP: Logged

posted May-03-2007 09:46 AM            

Can't wait to get edjucated!

another question:
since i still havn't picked up a hrm, what does running in the MAFF zone 'feel' like? I have been running really easy this past week and on this morning's run I suddenly hit a great stretch where it felt like i wasn't even running at all, and i could have easily recited the Pledge of Allegiance... is this the magic pace zone i should be training in? my splits when i looked at SpoprtTracks afterwords were actually just as fast as ever, i've just been very conscience of not entering the discomfort-zone that i always thought was jogging. idears?

IP: Logged

posted May-03-2007 09:59 AM            

I'm coming off a 3 month layoff. I'm in my 2nd week. I'm starting off gradually, my first week was runs of 4 days of 3 miles. This week if 1 day 3 miles and 3 days 4 miles.

My runs so far have been (I'm 35)

4/20 3mi: 11:45mpm@143
4/22 3mi: 11:39mpm@142
4/24 3mi: 10:51mpm@141
4/26 3mi: 10:18mpm@141
4/28 3mi: 10:12mpm@141
4/29 3mi: 9:48mpm@140
5/1 4mi: 10:17mpm@142
5/3 4mi: 10:26mpm@143

First, I was surprise to see a rapid drop in pace, but slightly discouraged to see the increase in pace this last week. Please note that I ran a 3:06 marathon (1:29+/1:36+) at NYC in Nov 2006.

My goal race in 2008 Boston, so I'm basically on a 52 week plan, where I plan to gradually build up my mileage to around 80 mpw. That will hopefull happen in around 24 weeks (I'm in week 2).

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
dfcameron,

I see very similar results. Next week will be my 1-year Maf anniversary. In the beginning I had severe pace erosion. Today my runs are very stable and I actually speed up at the same HR after about 5 miles many times.

I have a buddy who trains with me occasionally. He only runs "slow" when he's with me. A year ago we would run 15 miles together and our HR's maintained the same gap for the entire run. Today that gap is the same for the first couple miles but widens significantly as we go further.

---

IP: Logged

posted May-03-2007 06:01 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dcv2002:
Aharmer, If you don't mind me asking, what was your pace like one year ago when you started? What pace did you decay too?

I'm coming off a 3 month layoff. I'm in my 2nd week. I'm starting off gradually, my first week was runs of 4 days of 3 miles. This week if 1 day 3 miles and 3 days 4 miles.

My runs so far have been (I'm 35)

4/20 3mi: 11:45mpm@143
4/22 3mi: 11:39mpm@142
4/24 3mi: 10:51mpm@141
4/26 3mi: 10:18mpm@141
4/28 3mi: 10:12mpm@141
4/29 3mi: 9:48mpm@140
5/1 4mi: 10:17mpm@142
5/3 4mi: 10:26mpm@143

First, I was surprise to see a rapid drop in pace, but slightly discouraged to see the increase in pace this last week. Please note that I ran a 3:06 marathon (1:29+/1:36+) at NYC in Nov 2006.

My goal race in 2008 Boston, so I'm basically on a 52 week plan, where I plan to gradually build up my mileage to around 80 mpw. That will hopefull happen in around 24 weeks (I'm in week 2).

---

dcv,

Your data is very interesting, I look forward to tracking your progress if you're willing to continue posting. I don't have exact numbers handy regarding erosion, but I would guess my long runs would end about 1:30/mile slower than the first miles.

For reference, my long runs a year ago were averaging about 9:20/mile. Today they are just under 8:00/mile. All at a HR of 125. (paces assume similar course and weather conditions)

Do you have any HR data for your marathons or other races? Do you have an close estimate of your max HR, or have you had your AT and/or VO2max checked in a lab setting?

------------------
My Profile

"Pain is temporary. Regret hurts forever."
http://www.hrmarathontraining.blogspot.com/

IP: Logged

posted May-03-2007 08:21 PM            

Anyways, my only HR data I have was from 2005. My HRM died so I didn't use it last year for training for the marathon. Basically went off pacing based upon race results using Daniels' pacing.

I don't really have any maxHR, except that for a 10K I ran back in 2004/05 I saw 188. Don't know what it is now, but probably 185-188. No other lab check up done with regards to AT or vO2max.

Pre-break I had runs of 6 miles @ 139bpm @ 8:07mpm and 5 miles @ 134bpm @ 8:31mpm. Most of my easy run pre-HRM were around 8:00 mpm.

I will continue to post.

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:

Do you have any HR data for your marathons or other races? Do you have an close estimate of your max HR, or have you had your AT and/or VO2max checked in a lab setting?

---

IP: Logged

posted May-04-2007 11:30 AM            

I posted back on April 5th talking about ending Couch to 5K and starting to MAF directly after completing that. My Garmin FINALLY got here yesterday and I took it out on W7D3 this morning (0.25mi warmup, 2.5mi continuous jog, and 0.25mi cooldown).

Well, official result: I am INCREDIBLY slow and in INCREDIBLY poor aerobic health. I averaged 15:20 min/mile on the jogging segment and my heart rate averaged 157 with a high at the end of 172. I felt I could talk the whole way (and I occasionally DO talk out loud during my runs), but 172 is much higher than my MAF of 150 (180-25-5 (health problems)).

I'm obviously going to have to slow down to do MAF training and this slow down might have to be to a very brisk walk.

Questions: I have a 5K planned once a month from may-aug. Should I forgo completing the 5K's in favor of just slowing down and running to build up mileage?

Is this really going to help me speed up? Will I EVER speed up? I'm SO PAINFULLY slow and sometimes I get a little down that I'll never be able to speed up. Just some more hearing that leitnerj started at 17 min/mi will make me feel better. Or other people who have slowed way down (to below 12 min/miles) to see good improvements.

Thanks!

IP: Logged

posted May-04-2007 12:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:
since i still havn't picked up a hrm, what does running in the MAFF zone 'feel' like? I have been running really easy this past week and on this morning's run I suddenly hit a great stretch where it felt like i wasn't even running at all, and i could have easily recited the Pledge of Allegiance... is this the magic pace zone i should be training in? my splits when i looked at SpoprtTracks afterwords were actually just as fast as ever, i've just been very conscience of not entering the discomfort-zone that i always thought was jogging. idears?

---

The courses I run most often have rolling hills, so I find myself comfortably slow on the flats, picking up the pace quite a bit on the downhills (MAF speedwork?!), and crawling like snail on the uphills. It's only been a week, but I'm getting a little better at managing my HR over the course, but the frequent changes in pace is a little irritating at the moment. I'm very surprised at how a modest change in incline can raise/lower my HR so much.

IMO you should never be in a "discomfort-zone" when running at MAF. Even when I pick up the pace on downhills it feels smooth and easy.

IP: Logged

posted May-04-2007 01:55 PM            

IMO you should never be in a "discomfort-zone" when running at MAF. Even when I pick up the pace on downhills it feels smooth and easy. [/QUOTE]

Yep, this sounds about right. Although, over the past 6 months, however,I can run up hills quite a bit faster than I used to be able to. (relative to my MAF pace) Jesse (leitnerj) calls downhills his "aerobic speedwork", which is a great term for it.

Keep working hills into your runs. (doesn't sound like you have much choice ) Personally, running below MAF allows me to add even more hills into runs without feeling too tired afterword. This has made me much stronger with hills over the past 3 or so months than I used to be. I definitely notice a smaller HR drift than I used to, though. Have others noticed this as well?

[This message has been edited by Docster (edited May-04-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted May-04-2007 02:14 PM            

Do you have any advice for avoiding the rollercoaster HR that comes with rolling hills?

At first I tried to run right at my MAF (133), but my last couple of runs I've run below that which gives me a little bit of a cushion for the inevitable HR increase on the hills. This seems to have smoothed out my run ... not as herky jerky as it was initially.

"Aerobic Speedwork" ... I like that ... I was very surprised how much I had to increase my leg turnover on the downhills to maintain MAF. I think in the past I did just the opposite ... I pushed up the hills and then rested on the downhills to catch my breath. It will be interesting to see how this new type of training (new to me!) works out.

IP: Logged

posted May-04-2007 06:15 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:

---

Yep, this sounds about right. Although, over the past 6 months, however,I can run up hills quite a bit faster than I used to be able to. (relative to my MAF pace) Jesse (leitnerj) calls downhills his "aerobic speedwork", which is a great term for it.

Keep working hills into your runs. (doesn't sound like you have much choice ) Personally, running below MAF allows me to add even more hills into runs without feeling too tired afterword. This has made me much stronger with hills over the past 3 or so months than I used to be. I definitely notice a smaller HR drift than I used to, though. Have others noticed this as well?

[/QUOTE]

What you describe is almost identical to what I've seen for myself.
These downhill (and uphill) elements, are so critical to getting the
best performance out of such training.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted May-04-2007 06:20 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
Docster,

Do you have any advice for avoiding the rollercoaster HR that comes with rolling hills?

At first I tried to run right at my MAF (133), but my last couple of runs I've run below that which gives me a little bit of a cushion for the inevitable HR increase on the hills. This seems to have smoothed out my run ... not as herky jerky as it was initially.

"Aerobic Speedwork" ... I like that ... I was very surprised how much I had to increase my leg turnover on the downhills to maintain MAF. I think in the past I did just the opposite ... I pushed up the hills and then rested on the downhills to catch my breath. It will be interesting to see how this new type of training (new to me!) works out.

---

Don't avoid that roller coaster! One thing that I haven't touched on
very much here is how well you will train yourself to run hilly races
in an optimal fashion if you learn how to maintain a near steady
effort going up and down hills. I have now paced a number of
people through marathons, the last three to very significant PRs.
These are people who were well-trained, not necessarily using a
MAF approach, but who really didn't know how to tackle hills in a
long race. They were a bit uncomfortable with how much I slowed
them down going up the hills, but when they felt better than ever
at mile 22 or so, they all understood what was going on. Also, I
believe you benefit substantially from a significant mix of paces
in your training runs, which is what you get when you ride the
aerobic roller coaster.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted May-05-2007 02:38 AM               

I love this phrase....could be a carnival ride or even a heavymetal band name.

leitnerj, if you were a boxer you could use this.....

And in this corner, weighing in at 170 pounds, theeeeeee one the only, theeeeeee aerobic roller coaster------jleitner! Just another sick and twisted thought that I had to share.

------------------
My Profile

My Running Log

**DTFB**

IP: Logged