posted Nov-10-2006 03:32 PM            

I'm sticking with 95% MAF right now, and will do a few tempo runs before the marathon in February. As this is my first marathon, and my first go at anything close to high mileage, I feel that the more MAF I do, the better off I will be.

I ran my first half marathon last Saturday at a 7:57 pace, which was pretty much the same pace I ran a 5K in early August! Obviously I'm improving aerobically and have stayed healthy as well.

IP: Logged

posted Nov-10-2006 05:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
Jimmy, could you please add a little detail next time? These one and two word responses are tough to follow.

---

That was the cut-down version (sent it into Reader's Digest for the "Humor in Shorts" column), the full version gets into how each method effected my income, sleep habits, sex life (since I started Maffetone, I'm no longer called Mr. Quickie), and overall attractiveness. Someday, it will be included in the museum that will inevitably be built where I now live. Quotes from it printed on mugs and sold in the gift shop.

--Jimmy

Current Marathon Training
My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

IP: Logged

posted Nov-10-2006 06:22 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
My agent keeps telling me to post a little less, create some mystery, but when a newbie marathoner needs me to chime in, I must chime. Your wish has been granted, Juraddin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Congrats on an excellent first season! Nice first half marathon!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

Don't make an assumption that your aerobic fitness ain't bad based on those relationships in your performances this year. It's your first year, and that slower 5k (in relation to the 10k-hm) could be an indicator of many, many......many things. If you have your sights on a marathon, assume that your aerobic fitness is bad, and act accordingly. Which means you might consider a 12-16 base training period. There are many ways and views about how to do this, and through experimentation, you'll find what works for you.

---

It's funny how you said don't assume, as I was thinking the same thing writing my original post. I was wondering if I was making an assumption that my aerobic fitness was good. In any case, good or bad, there is always room for improvement, especially when preparing for a race that uses mainly the aerobic system. My base building phase will consist of 100%MAF running as I increase my mileage to where I want to start my marathon training, ~45-50mpw.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

For my first marathon, I did the Hadd training for a nice long period of time, and even though the calculators predicted a possible 3:35 based on a few shorter races a few weeks out, I shuffled in with a 4:14 like a turtle with arthritis being forced to go to the mudhole for the elderly against his will.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

In retrospect, there are lots of factors that went into this performance that I can point to. It was a freak hot 70º day on Oct 31st in Cape Cod. I didn't know about not eating close to the race (I ate a stack of pancakes an hour before). I took too much rest during the taper. Maybe went too high in mileage on my long runs (24 miles). But that doesn't account for not breaking four hours. When it comes right down to it, I wasn't fit enough to tackle that course in less than four hours. Doing Hadd, I really don't think I worked low enough in my aerobic zone. I worked low enough 14-24 weeks out from the race, but coming into the 12-14 weeks before the race, I began to do my hard days above 150 (77% MHR), and soon above 160, and then around 170--using that progressive method Hadd touts. I also included hill repeats and a few interval sessions. It ended up I was doing two 12-14 mile marathon tempo runs per week, along with a long run. This resulted in not being aerobically fit enough for the marathon. I hit the wall at mile 20 and got really slow. A 4.2 mile race I did 3 weeks before that marathon showed significant progress in speed, but that surely didn't mean I was aerobically fit. I was a slow-twitch sapling still. The marathon was still a great experience, I'll never forget, and I was happy with being able to finish, and the time wasn't that bad.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

I switched to a modified Pfitzinger and Douglas 70-mile per or less program from their book "Advanced Marathoning." I started with a solid base training period under their ideas--no speedwork (90% of miles below 70% HRR, and the other 10% drifting to 78% HRR).

After base periods, going into the next two marathons (VCM in MAY 2005, Philadelphia in Nov. 2005), I did at least 80% of my miles under 70% HRR (what Parker reccomends), 90% under 78% HRR ( I would allow myself to drift and speed up to the 78% in the last 3-4 miles of long runs), and the remaining 10% a few lactate threshold runs and V02max sessions. There was also a race season thrown in. I didn't go over 22 miles in my long runs.

2005 Training for Philadelphia Marathon:

total aerobic miles (78% and below)=90%
tempo at marathon race pace=5.5%
lactate threshold=3.5%
VO2max=1%

A year after my first marathon at Cape Cod, I came in with a 3:28 at Philly, aven though I was 5-7 pounds heavier. The thing that stands out when I compare the Pfitzinger training to the Hadd is that I spent a lot more time below 70% HRR, LOTS more time. I only did two marathon tempo runs. The LT runs were relatively short and few. I have nothing bad to say about Pfitzinger, Douglas and their Advanced Marathoning method. I saw good results.

---

Again, funny you mention Pfitz. I have the book and at one point was thinking of using it, but some of my "virtual friends" over at the Boomer board had some difficulties with it. It gave me the impression that this program, again, is geared towards more experienced athletes. Pfitz uses a lot of "striders" on easy runs, wouldn't that interfere with low HR training? Did you incorporate those at all?

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

So the one thing I can say that works for me, from my two years of experiments, is to have a 8-12 week base period before the spring and fall race seasons. All miles below 70% HRR at the very most. Keep 90% of my miles below 70% HRR once I start higher heart rates (3-5 mile lactate threshold runs, fartlek, marathon race pace tempo runs, and progression long runs). The Maffetone formula has kept me at 72% MHR and below, or 65% HRR and below. I believe the 180-age formula is a good overall way to keep your HR down in the fat-burning regions, and will work for most, but might not work for some as it puts you either too high or too low in terms of %MHR or %HRR.

Recommendations:

Pfitzinger's and Douglas's "Advanced Marathoning"--yes, but after a base period, and keep 80% of your miles 70% HRR and below. 90% of your miles below 78% HRR, and the rest at higher heart rates. I recommend his LT runs. He includes HR zones for each of his runs:

recovery= 70%HRR and below
long/medium long runs: 65-78% HRR
Lactate Threshold: 76-88% HRR (15k race pace)
VO2max Intervals: 93-98% HRR

Maffetone--yes. Do a base period, and add higher heart rates the last 6-8 weeks coming into the race. No more than 10% of your total mileage above 80% HRR.

I wouldn't recommend Hadd.

---

Thanks, so much, I will definitely read up on Pfitz again. I also looked at Higdon, but I am coming to the point where there are too many different programs ping-ponging around in my head and it's time to take a step back and just choose one, then sticking to it consistently. Lot of people seem to like Pfitz...
One more thing (sorry), I just would like to run my HR #'s by you.

Age 45
HRmax:182 (measured in a lab)
HRrest: 48 (measured ~1x/week before getting up in the morning; I often go back to snoozing while measuring it)
LT: (based on a lab test in June this year):146-151
MAF: 135 = 74% of HRmax = 65% of HRR
MAF when recovering from injury: MAF-5=130 = 71% of HRmax = 61% of HRR

Your recommendations:

recovery= 70%HRR and below = 142 or below for me
long/medium long runs: 65-78% HRR = 135-152
Lactate Threshold: 76-88% HRR (15k race pace) = 150-166
VO2max Intervals: 93-98% HRR = 173-179

Does this sound about right? I am wondering because even the recovery HR seem quite a bit higher then my MAF...

Thanks again for the very thorough info, lot of us noobs will benefit from it I think.

------------------
jura

[This message has been edited by jura (edited Nov-10-2006).]

IP: Logged

posted Nov-10-2006 08:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jura:
Thanks, so much, I will definitely read up on Pfitz again. I also looked at Higdon, but I am coming to the point where there are too many different programs ping-ponging around in my head and it's time to take a step back and just choose one, then sticking to it consistently. Lot of people seem to like Pfitz...
One more thing (sorry), I just would like to run my HR #'s by you.

Age 45
HRmax:182 (measured in a lab)
HRrest: 48 (measured ~1x/week before getting up in the morning; I often go back to snoozing while measuring it)
LT: (based on a lab test in June this year):146-151
MAF: 135 = 74% of HRmax = 65% of HRR
MAF when recovering from injury: MAF-5=130 = 71% of HRmax = 61% of HRR

Your recommendations:

recovery= 70%HRR and below = 142 or below for me
long/medium long runs: 65-78% HRR = 135-152
Lactate Threshold: 76-88% HRR (15k race pace) = 150-166
VO2max Intervals: 93-98% HRR = 173-179

Does this sound about right? I am wondering because even the recovery HR seem quite a bit higher then my MAF...

Thanks again for the very thorough info, lot of us noobs will benefit from it I think.

---

When I used Pfitzinger/Douglas, I modified it a bit. I didn't do striders on aerobic runs. So most of my running ended up being as I stated. This method can be a bit tiring. It is called "Advanced" for a reason. I had to take more rest than planned coming into that taper. I was feeling a bit burnt.

Looks like you MAF is right in your MHR/HRR aerobic wheelhouse.
Keep track of all your data, then you'll have something to compare to as you move through your journey and try different things.

Good luck.

--Jimmy

Current Marathon Training
My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

IP: Logged

posted Nov-11-2006 01:35 PM            

First, let me confess I have a hard time posting here. I seem to be easily intimidated by you successful experiments. Most here seem to be young, strong and so knowledgeable, and I guess, just plainly in better shape so you see results fairly fast. It seems that some of you, like Stealth26, are seeing amazing results very quickly with the MAF approach. Congratulations Stealth26. Your results are really
encouraging.

I am a 51 year old women, hopefully not headed to the ‘mud hole for the elderly against her will.’ Thanks Jimmy for the giggles plus your wisdom provided here. I appreciate your honesty. I understand completely and that is why I asked. I have to get over this apprehension to posting because I need advice and encouragement as I continue on. With that said, I have been strictly MAFing for the last 10 weeks. I have seen negligible improvement in my pace, but on the other hand, I have been able to pile on the mileage like never before. However, I am always walking. I cheated on MAF yesterday when I headed for the hills to try the downhill running. I had a blast; it felt so good to run, but then I had a hard time stopping, hence the “cheating.”

Hadd, in his “Approach” says “don’t chop and change ideas with every book/schedule you read. You cannot beat consistency over time.” That is great advice, so why am I asking anything? I know the answer! Still, I am a bit out of the age range and I think I am getting bored with the walking. What am I trying to ask? If I stick with another 12 weeks of MAF, will I still be walking? No one can answer that! If I go with Parker Jr., (and my max hr and rhr is very similar to Jura’s, by the way,) my target hr would be <142 instead of the <129 I have been using. I am afraid to erode what I may have accomplished over the last 10 weeks if I go higher. I am never going to burn up the track, but 18-19 minute miles is discouraging. I have been intrigued by Cashmason’s comment:
"Cashmason
Cool Runner posted Oct-25-2006 01:58 PM 

Hi Rocky,
Yes guaranteed you will have to walk part of this at first to keep your heart rate under the target. Yes its frustrating.
I started at 18 minute miles, and stayed in running motion even though I could easily walk faster than that.
It will take a few weeks before you can run at your target heart rate without walking."

For the next 12 weeks, I will be taking Cashmason’s advice about staying “in running motion.” Maybe that will help with the discouragement I am feeling with the walking.

Sorry for the long post. I guess I am feeling alone with this training. I know it is the best thing for me personally. I do believe that. But my running buddies don’t understand. They are not impressed with my increased weekly mileage as I am. They just know that I am wanting or needing to walk when I am with them. I know that I am frustrating to them. Thanks for letting me vent.

IP: Logged

posted Nov-11-2006 07:40 PM            

I have read your FAQ, Pfizinger, Matt Russ, Hadd Articles in entirety to better understand the whole MAF process. As you may recall, I started my MAF training two weeks ago, Monday would be my 3rd week. I am not going to report the results yet because I don't want to read too much into the numbers too early, I feel given the length of time I have been training, the results are not as meaningful yet.

However, I do have a question about not having carbs before going out on my run. I usually have a powerbar, about an hr before I hit the road. When I started running, I was just drinking water before my run but as my runs got longer, I felt I needed a little fuel before going out. Does it mean that when I go running under my MAF, I am using the carbs from the powerbar first before I use fat as fuel? I just don't understand how the powerbar would make it into the system that fast.

Thanks in advance.

IP: Logged

posted Nov-11-2006 08:24 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beevee:

First, let me confess I have a hard time posting here. I seem to be easily intimidated by you successful experiments. Most here seem to be young, strong and so knowledgeable, and I guess, just plainly in better shape so you see results fairly fast. It seems that some of you, like Stealth26, are seeing amazing results very quickly with the MAF approach. Congratulations Stealth26. Your results are really
encouraging.

I am a 51 year old women, hopefully not headed to the ‘mud hole for the elderly against her will.’ Thanks Jimmy for the giggles plus your wisdom provided here. I appreciate your honesty. I understand completely and that is why I asked. I have to get over this apprehension to posting because I need advice and encouragement as I continue on. With that said, I have been strictly MAFing for the last 10 weeks. I have seen negligible improvement in my pace, but on the other hand, I have been able to pile on the mileage like never before. However, I am always walking. I cheated on MAF yesterday when I headed for the hills to try the downhill running. I had a blast; it felt so good to run, but then I had a hard time stopping, hence the “cheating.”

---

Hi Beevee-

First off, there are many of us here who struggle to see progress
for months! Some may be luckier than others, some may have
some physiological propensity to improvement, and some of
us may just put in a lot more training miles, possibly in much
more ideal environments. Then there is the other fact that it's
clear that people in the low 20s and 50s and above tend to need
to make more adjustments than others. However, some
possibilities at least for the case of those over 50 are that
the mileage tends to be lower than those younger, or
for new runners at that age, it takes a while to develop the
leg turnover required, and lastly it's possible that they
are not as likely to pick up the pace on the downs..
(For those on the younger side, I think
it's simply the case that the aerobic system really pushes out
to high heart rates and the scale is not linear on the low end
of age). Now, I take it that you've read some of my recent
posts concerning downhill running and I think you've developed
a bit of a liking to it, so much so that you're starting to keep
your downhill pace on the flats, hence jumping into higher
heart rate no-no land, is that right? Ok, so it's time to search
out some longer downhill stretches! It's good to start small
anyway - too much downhill too soon can start to lead to
some unwanted knocks and pings anyway. In either case,
do your best to keep the HR under control when you transition
from down to flat (and going up, of course), but do what you
can to pick up the pace on the downs. Try it for a while and
see if it gives you the stimulation that you need. There are
plenty of people around here with many levels of fitness - I
can assure you that you're not alone.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Nov-11-2006 08:31 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ZimGrlRun:

However, I do have a question about not having carbs before going out on my run. I usually have a powerbar, about an hr before I hit the road. When I started running, I was just drinking water before my run but as my runs got longer, I felt I needed a little fuel before going out. Does it mean that when I go running under my MAF, I am using the carbs from the powerbar first before I use fat as fuel? I just don't understand how the powerbar would make it into the system that fast.

Thanks in advance.

---

I can point you to two articles. First, the last of the links I have
up near the beginning in the FAQ (no carbs before running article)
and then the following article from Pfitzinger:
Pfitzinger on Fat Burning. You don't need to read the whole
Pfitzinger article, just this part: "How much fat you burn during running
can also be affected by how long it has been since you ate
carbohydrates. If you eat carbs during the 90 minutes before you run
(particularly foods with a high glycemic index), your body will tend to use
less fat and more carbs during the run. This occurs because insulin is
released in response to eating carbohydrates, which reduces the
mobilization of fatty acids, which reduces your muscles’ ability to use fat
for fuel."

Hence, eat something high in carbs shortly before you run and you
will encourage the body to use carbs for fuel, somewhat defeating
the purpose and training effect of this approach. Aside from that,
there is a lot of value in training yourself to make it through your
runs based on the energy sources that you already have. Note that
this is not to say anything about what you have after. Also note that
there's no problem taking in carbohydrates during exercise (but I
still recommend you avoid carbs during your training runs, but that's for
another reason based on McMillan's philosophy).

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Nov-12-2006 01:32 AM               

Good Luck to you.

IP: Logged

posted Nov-12-2006 10:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Now, I take it that you've read some of my recent
posts concerning downhill running and I think you've developed a bit of a liking to it, so much so that you're starting to keep
your downhill pace on the flats, hence jumping into higher
heart rate no-no land, is that right? Ok, so it's time to search
out some longer downhill stretches! It's good to start small
anyway - too much downhill too soon can start to lead to
some unwanted knocks and pings anyway. In either case,
do your best to keep the HR under control when you transition
from down to flat (and going up, of course), but do what you
can to pick up the pace on the downs. Try it for a while and
see if it gives you the stimulation that you need. There are
plenty of people around here with many levels of fitness - I
can assure you that you're not alone.

---

Thanks again Jesse. Yup, I have no trouble finding hills here in Colorado! It was so fun to run downhill and see the hr dropping as I was decending. But you are also correct about "the knocks and pings." I felt it in my legs the next day. It also felt good to breathe harder, like there was some effort behind the workout. The walking at <129 is not giving me that. I will start heading for the hills once a week to break up the walking.
Bev

IP: Logged

posted Nov-12-2006 10:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
BeeVee, I am 50 and Roy C. who also posts here is somewhere near me in age. Jura, is a few years younger and quite a bit faster than I am.

Good Luck to you.

---

Thanks Cashmason. As you have read, I have watched your progress and plan to take some advice you gave to another poster. Your experience gives me hope that I can bring my pace down to at least be able to wog!

IP: Logged

posted Nov-12-2006 04:22 PM               

even when I have rails to use my arms to avoid breaking with my legs I still get eccentric pain. I read sometimes that you re supposed to run downhills without breaking with normal striding. how in the heck can you do that without becoming a runaway runner?

RR

IP: Logged

posted Nov-12-2006 06:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by heavyweight:
Can someone explain to me how you can walk or run down hills and avoid the eccentric exercise pain? no matter what I do try to walk normally down hills (I end up going faster and faster unless I break) and still my quads squeam at me.

even when I have rails to use my arms to avoid breaking with my legs I still get eccentric pain. I read sometimes that you re supposed to run downhills without breaking with normal striding. how in the heck can you do that without becoming a runaway runner?

RR

---

Can't say much about walking down hills, but running down hills
your stride should change. You should have a short stride with
fast turnover, very slight lean forward, no giant steps or leaps, and
not braking.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Nov-12-2006 07:43 PM            

A brief background, ran boston this spring on inadequate training (peaked in the high 40s per week) and poor aerobic efficiency. the combination of a too aggressive a goal pace, ITB problems, and not enough miles lead to disaster. recovered from injury and regrouped for NYC. Trained even harder peaking at 55 miles per week (with 5 runs in the 20-23 range). race was a success.

Here are my stats....

ran NYC in 4:11:56, did saturday long training runs between 9:45 and 10:30 (heart rate would usually be under 140 for first hour, 140-150 for second hour, 150+ for third hour, 160+ for everything over third hour). did my 9 miler on tuesday in the 9-9:30 range (under 150 for first hour, high 150/low 160s there after). did my 8 miler on thursday in the 9:30 range. did my 5 milers (w,f, sunday) in the 10+ range in the 140-150 range. I am 36 and have a resting heart rate in the 48-53 range.

As my thoughts have turned to 2007 marathons (one spring and NYC next fall), I want to build my base further. I am not interested in focusing on a single school of though (be it lydiard, hadd, daniels, mcmillan, pfitzinger, or maffeton). Rather, I am interested in simply using a solid plan that incorporates fundamental "truths" that make sense. So my question is how long is a base building period? How should I measure the weekly build (in time or miles)? If I spend more time base building, (i.e., from now to february) is it safe to assume that training could count for the early weeks of a spring marathon training plan?

thanks in advance for your help

[This message has been edited by cohenmd (edited Nov-12-2006).]

IP: Logged

posted Nov-12-2006 07:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by cohenmd:
Rather, I am interested in simply using a solid plan that incorporates fundamental "truths" that make sense.

[This message has been edited by cohenmd (edited Nov-12-2006).]

---

What are these fundamental truths that make sense?

If you can lay them out clearly already, you don't need any help.

--Jimmy

Current Marathon Training
My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

IP: Logged

posted Nov-13-2006 12:33 PM            

My 5k and half-marathon times are similar to yours. However, my heart rate is lower than yours when it comes to the 9:30 pace and faster. It used to be more like yours. You need to run more miles a week at a much lower intensity. Doing your training runs at a pace you'd race at is a mistake. I have done this in the past. Basically the more you beat your body up in training, the more quickly your heart rate will go up because your body is already tired at baseline. If you include more low intensity workouts into your schedule your body begins its training at a rested state rather than a fatigued state. A fatigued state increases your HR very quickly. This is my experience at least.

If you slowed your 9:30 runs to a 9:48 pace you'd probably get your desired HR's. You just have to learn to accept that the pace is slower. It does pay out to train this way.

Also if your heart rate isn't below 150 for your recovery then you're not slow enough for recovering. If you have to gut out a 12 min mile to get your HR to 138 bpms then do it! Who cares what people think! This is for you and for your health. It can be dangerous (IMHO) to train this hard all of the time. Plus you risk burn-out.

[This message has been edited by running411searcher (edited Nov-13-2006).]

IP: Logged

posted Nov-13-2006 03:41 PM            

Yesterday I completed my highest weekly mileage (70) punctuated with my longest run ever - a 22 miler at an easy, but not slow 9:45 min/mile pace. I had no problem finishing, have no soreness whatsoever, and the lap paces throughout were very consistent, included the ones at the end.

What surprised me bigtime though, was that my HR only averaged 135 (67% HRR, 76% HRMax) and the highest HR recorded overall was only 150 (78% HRR, 84% HRMax). There was a bit of HR drift near the end, but really very little.

An encouraging, confidence-building long run for sure! Now I need to start researching what HR to run my marathon at ...

Thought you might find this of interest. Thanks for all the good info in this thread.

Bill

------------------
Bill's Profile

IP: Logged

posted Nov-13-2006 04:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I can point you to two articles. First, the last of the links I have
up near the beginning in the FAQ (no carbs before running article)
and then the following article from Pfitzinger:
Pfitzinger on Fat Burning. You don't need to read the whole
Pfitzinger article, just this part: "How much fat you burn during running
can also be affected by how long it has been since you ate
carbohydrates. If you eat carbs during the 90 minutes before you run
(particularly foods with a high glycemic index), your body will tend to use
less fat and more carbs during the run. This occurs because insulin is
released in response to eating carbohydrates, which reduces the
mobilization of fatty acids, which reduces your muscles’ ability to use fat
for fuel."

Hence, eat something high in carbs shortly before you run and you
will encourage the body to use carbs for fuel, somewhat defeating
the purpose and training effect of this approach. Aside from that,
there is a lot of value in training yourself to make it through your
runs based on the energy sources that you already have. Note that
this is not to say anything about what you have after. Also note that
there's no problem taking in carbohydrates during exercise (but I
still recommend you avoid carbs during your training runs, but that's for
another reason based on McMillan's philosophy).

---

I understand the theory but I find I am starving! when I get up in the morning and need some food asap. Also, I drive my DD1 to school before I get to do my training. What whould you recommend to help me through this time between getting up and running?
Also, I would love to hear about McMillan's philosophy on the subject, can you elaborate or give a link? Avoid carbs during training? So no gels or Gatorade?
The nutrition aspect of marathon training is something I am just starting to study up on, but already see what a huge inflance proper nutrition has on marathon success.
I appreciate your advise.

------------------
jura

IP: Logged

posted Nov-13-2006 05:02 PM               

Beeve,
I didn,t fully begin MAF 100% until 9/20/06, this was after my first and only HM (2:15:56), my HR was at 193 when I finished. I started this year out walking for a week, then on to the C25K program, then I progressed on to thinking "how far/hard can the 13.1 mile thing actually be?". So I went and found out. I used the beginner HM schedule on this site and added a longer slower run to sunday that went up to 19.36 miles and removed 80% of speed work. Speed work is really hard on me, I've had some issues with my hips and lower back and neck that 9+ months of physical therapy just can't let me forget. On my long slow runs as far back as July I would put in longer slower miles. I have never been a fast runner nor had I ever liked running for distance. Hmmm, something has changed. I'm not a fast runner but the distance thing is starting to look better. I started reading this thread, bought a few books and am still slow, but improving. My HR during my first 6 weeks of MAF was very speratic, some time it would spike by 10 bpm, still may if I'm not careful, I slow down, let it recover, then move on. My HR has become alot more stable and recovers faster.

I ended last year (05) with asthma, 5'8"at 230+ pounds, smoked, had the worst diet in the world. I had a hard time just walking up steps. I needed a change! Now at 191 pounds, no cigs (almost a year), a good diet, 1040 miles under my belt. I may not be fast, but I plan on being able to go the distance. MAF may not make you faster......It will make you stronger. In 07 (GOD willing) I plan on a full 26.2, I plan on finishing around 4:30ish. Slow for some, fast for others, just right for me. My MAF number is 135bpm (145-10), sometmes it will go to 140bpm. I figure if on a bad day since it is MAF-10....I can't ever go over 145bpm. I've cheated a couple of times...couldn't resist with winter coming and all.

Beeve,
I didn,t know how I was doing with MAF until this last test. I was actually considering quiting MAF. This last test has changed my mind. If your struggling, keep at it, ask lots of questions. leitnerj, jjwaverly42, Cashmason, and other maffers are a true godsend. Thanks maffers.

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**DTFB**

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posted Nov-13-2006 06:04 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by running411searcher:
Camy,

My 5k and half-marathon times are similar to yours. However, my heart rate is lower than yours when it comes to the 9:30 pace and faster. It used to be more like yours. You need to run more miles a week at a much lower intensity. Doing your training runs at a pace you'd race at is a mistake. I have done this in the past. Basically the more you beat your body up in training, the more quickly your heart rate will go up because your body is already tired at baseline. If you include more low intensity workouts into your schedule your body begins its training at a rested state rather than a fatigued state. A fatigued state increases your HR very quickly. This is my experience at least.

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Here is my history:
I started the C25K program in 3/05 and jogged "as easy as possible". I rather quickly got to a 6 mi weekly run, but my ave HR in it was 175 and a 12-13 min/mi pace.

Over the next 9 months, I pretty much kept the same pace, but my aveHR dropped to about 160 for my 12 min/mi pace.

After which, I tried to follow a low HR plan (70% HRR), but I slowed down over the 10 weeks I tried it and then went another direction. Note that I increased my time using the 10% rule and over these 10 weeks, I ran considerably more than I had in any 10 weeks span prior. I do believe that the progress I made next is somewhat due to this running.

This next training had me build my zones based on a 30' time trial. It had me doing my easy runs in the 160 range and threw in some 5-8k tempo runs in the 180-185 HR range. Initially, my 160 runs were in the 11:xx and almost immediately droped to 10:xx. About 2 months later, it fell into the 9:xx range. I also saw my 5k go from 29:xx to 23:00 in about 6 months. Also, I started to get some minor aches and joint "tweaks" here and there, but nothing that shut me down.

I am now going to give the Mark Allen derived MAF # a try. It puts me at 150 (180-age + 5). I'm going to give it 6 weeks. If I'm not improving, I'm going to mix in some slightly higher runs in ala Hadd and give it another 6 weeks. The big wrench here, though, is that I'm a leader for some Team In Training runs where I'll have to pace the group. If my 150 HR puts me slower than 10:30 or so, I'm going to have to just accept the HR that run will be at, so it may be Hadd-like from the beginning.

I'll go run my MAF test tonight on a track.

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posted Nov-13-2006 06:18 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by jura:
I understand the theory but I find I am starving! when I get up in the morning and need some food asap. Also, I drive my DD1 to school before I get to do my training. What whould you recommend to help me through this time between getting up and running?
Also, I would love to hear about McMillan's philosophy on the subject, can you elaborate or give a link? Avoid carbs during training? So no gels or Gatorade?
The nutrition aspect of marathon training is something I am just starting to study up on, but already see what a huge inflance proper nutrition has on marathon success.
I appreciate your advise.

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First I would make sure you are not hypoglycemic or diabetic. If you
are, then take in the carbs you need when you need them - that's it.
Next, the issue for you may just be that you need food, not necessarily
carbs. I can get up, not anything at all, then go run for 4 hours without
taking in any food, but many cannot. Try some foods, such as beef
jerky, beef stick, eggs or egg beaters, etc., that have low or no carbs.
That should get some fuel in your body without raising your blood
glucose levels. Here's McMillan's Advice on long runs, including the "no carb" element.

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MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
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posted Nov-13-2006 06:22 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by cohenmd:
can one of the wise voices here offer a suggestion for basebuilding period for me?

...

As my thoughts have turned to 2007 marathons (one spring and NYC next fall), I want to build my base further. I am not interested in focusing on a single school of though (be it lydiard, hadd, daniels, mcmillan, pfitzinger, or maffeton). Rather, I am interested in simply using a solid plan that incorporates fundamental "truths" that make sense. So my question is how long is a base building period? How should I measure the weekly build (in time or miles)? If I spend more time base building, (i.e., from now to february) is it safe to assume that training could count for the early weeks of a spring marathon training plan?

thanks in advance for your help

[This message has been edited by cohenmd (edited Nov-12-2006).]

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There's, of course, no magic answer, but it sounds like you have
at least decent aerobic conditioning to start out with, so you might
just plan on 10-12 weeks, but be ready to adjust in either direction
based on your progress. 12 weeks is fairly standard for someone
who is starting out with some aerobic development. I certainly
couldn't call this a fundmental truth (as Jimmy as poetically alluded
to) but rather somewhat of a rule of thumb. One thing about low
HR training- you just never know how the progress is going to go
in the first couple of months.

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MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Nov-13-2006 11:46 PM            

Let me know how it goes! I think patience is a virtue here. Think about how little you've been running. Elites are not born overnight.

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posted Nov-14-2006 12:44 AM               

My warmup was a 5-10 min walk (HR at 100) followed by a slow 1.37 mi. jog with ave/maxHR 140/148.

I then ran 5 miles on the track. I went a bit faster than I thought I would go and got a little faster with pretty much each mile. Here are the splits:

Mile--Time-----AveHR----MaxHR
1-----11:52-------147--------152
2-----12:06-------149--------152
3-----11:49-------148--------151
4-----11:39-------148--------151
5-----11:32-------149--------153

I finished up this with a 1.38 mi cooldown with ave/max HR 146/150.

A couple of observations.
Running on the track was not nearly as bad as running on a treadmill.
Initially, the pace seemed real slow, but about halfway into it, it seemed normal.
A good burp gets me about a 10-15 bpm drop for a few seconds.
My Garmin 305 does a real good job on the track.

Chris

[This message has been edited by camy (edited Nov-14-2006).]

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posted Nov-14-2006 02:54 AM            

Hmmmm that doesn't seem right to me. Are you taking stimulants? (lol j/k). If you do take caffiene before running it would be good to know this! How much do you weigh? Are you overweight by chance? Are you a nervous runner?

How long are your long runs? If you're going 10 miles max, I'd suggest slowing your pace down and really work it up to 15 miles. The long long runs at low heart rates will help you tremendously. There is a ton of scientific literature on this. You increase capillary density, aerobic base, etc. during these long runs. You'll want your long run to be done for AT LEAST 1 hour 30 min.

Not enough long runs = not enough endurance = not enough aerobic base = high heart rate.

Anyone agree with me on this?

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