posted Feb-24-2007 08:58 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by misstenacity:
I just read the whole Hadd paper, and am definitely intrigued. I already have Maffetone's book as well as Daniels, etc, and have seen benefits from low-HR training, but I want to take it further for my first marathon later this summer.

Quick question - I want to test my max HR and do the initial 2400s test a la Hadd, but I am getting over a cold - should I wait until I am truly better?

My legs have felt dead on the last few runs, but I thought maybe I could still at least do the max HR test by itself. Ok, or not ok?

Thanks!

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You should wait until you're healthy (i.e., your resting heart rate
is back to normal, whatever that means for you) until you do any
form of testing. Otherwise, the test results won't have much
meaning.

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posted Feb-24-2007 10:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by roy c:
Thanks Willamona, but what do you mean the only thing to worry about was a low HR? She will only do it if she choses, I'd never try and make her, no chance of that
Roy

[This message has been edited by roy c (edited Feb-24-2007).]

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LOL, I left out the word Max.....does that help....low MAX heart rate....Sorry, I do too many things at once sometimes.

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posted Feb-25-2007 08:14 PM            

Today is the usual Long Run day, so I went and did it, after 2 complete days off.

Unlike my previous long runs, in which I normally start out "medium" and then pick it up throughout as I warm up and feel good, usually cruising between 75-81% MHR, this time I was determined to make it a pure MAF run.

Based on a decent estimate of MHR=195, I set my range to 135-150 (69-76%) on the monitor, and went for a 14 mile out and back. It was easy to keep it in range on the flat parts, I just went easier than usual. But there's a hill about 2 miles before the turnaround, and to keep it below 150 I had to walk 3 times for about a minute each, and when running I was doing "granny" baby-steps. For comparison, that 2+ mile hill was 29 minutes up, and 16 minutes down, flying just to keep the HR around 140. :-)

Overall it was a great run - I felt like I was tired but could have completed the run again. Yay!

Andrea
in Albuquerque

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posted Feb-25-2007 08:37 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by misstenacity:

Overall it was a great run - I felt like I was tired but could have completed the run again. Yay!

Andrea
in Albuquerque

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Sounds great. A nice MAF run in ABQ starts up in the foothills up
in the NE heights off of Tramway, then down to the bike path, south
to around I-40 - just a long and continuous downhill stretch. Once you
get to the point where you can control on the ups, start at the south
end, putter up to the foothills, then turn around at a faster pace on the
downhill.

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posted Feb-26-2007 08:58 AM            

Rather than go all the way up I decided to go up 1:15 and then turn around, but I'll probably go all the way next time - it's only another half mile or so.

Andrea

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posted Feb-26-2007 08:46 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by misstenacity:
Jesse,
My route was an interesting but not yet routine out & back, starting from Montgomery & Tramway, all the way up to the road that goes to the La Luz trail, then up that a little over 2 miles.

Rather than go all the way up I decided to go up 1:15 and then turn around, but I'll probably go all the way next time - it's only another half mile or so.

Andrea

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That's a good course. I only wish I was a runner when I lived in
ABQ. Now, I just get my runs in when I'm there on biz trips. I
have to remember my head lamp for La Luz since I usually have
to be done with my runs by about 6:30 am.

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posted Feb-28-2007 08:51 PM               

A quick question.... When you finished your first and second round of MAF did you ever feel weird ( like you were kind of starting to run all over again) when you started to add speed and tempos? The reason I ask is I hit a plateau during my last MAF (8 weeks) I seemed to be stuck if not regressing, I didn't really do alot of documentation(MAF tests) but I do know my times were not getting better over all, a few mile checks show some regressions, not major however. I figured I may need to do some different type of runs and try to bring everything back together and see how I fair, (tempos, speed work, long runs still done at MAF, and some minor hill work. I started to add some speed work (still slower than you super duper speeders) and my HR seems to stay lower longer, rarely gets as high as it did last year, eventually it will climb up ther though (180 to 190) it does take a little more time and effort. Feels a little weird...not bad, just different, normal? I don't know? Any thoughts on this.

**DTFB**

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posted Mar-01-2007 09:38 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stealth26:
leitnerj, and others

A quick question.... When you finished your first and second round of MAF did you ever feel weird ( like you were kind of starting to run all over again) when you started to add speed and tempos? The reason I ask is I hit a plateau during my last MAF (8 weeks) I seemed to be stuck if not regressing, I didn't really do alot of documentation(MAF tests) but I do know my times were not getting better over all, a few mile checks show some regressions, not major however. I figured I may need to do some different type of runs and try to bring everything back together and see how I fair, (tempos, speed work, long runs still done at MAF, and some minor hill work. I started to add some speed work (still slower than you super duper speeders) and my HR seems to stay lower longer, rarely gets as high as it did last year, eventually it will climb up ther though (180 to 190) it does take a little more time and effort. Feels a little weird...not bad, just different, normal? I don't know? Any thoughts on this.

**DTFB**

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Certainly building aerobic fibers will make you feel different if you're not used to it. (Like lifting weight will make you feel different when you're not used to it.)
I plot my MAF every couple of weeks throughout the year. If I plateau I think about my stress, diet, etc. to see if I've neglected something that's preventing me from improving. Maffetone says the plateaus can also be normal, and if that's the case it's an ideal time to add anaerobic training.

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posted Mar-01-2007 01:47 PM            

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posted Mar-01-2007 03:35 PM               

Look under Jesse's FAQ for the Hadd link. His teachings are different than Maffetone, and I believe Maff is better for somebody who needs to build that initial aerobic base, but Hadd does a great job describing the physiology behind this stuff and what's really happening. The program I use is a blend of both methods. Good luck!

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posted Mar-01-2007 04:02 PM            

Anyway, today at lunch my coworker ran with me and talked me into running faster than my MAF (she hates to go that slow) so I gave in. It was a great run outside (maybe 45 min or so) not too fast, but I did get my heart rate up fairly high. At the end I decided to see how fast I could go just for fun to get my heart rate way up. I reached 192. Now, is there any way I can change the 180-your age standard, or does it even matter? I'm 35. I would like 192-my age, but does it work the same way??

any comments are appreciated!

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posted Mar-01-2007 04:43 PM            

quote:

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At the end I decided to see how fast I could go just for fun to get my heart rate way up. I reached 192. Now, is there any way I can change the 180-your age standard, or does it even matter? I'm 35. I would like 192-my age, but does it work the same way??

any comments are appreciated! [/B]

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The 180 isn't linked to max heart rate (it's assumed to be less than max) so the fact your max is higher than 180, doesn't give you extra MAF beats. Sorry. I'd guess your max is in the 195+ range so the 180 - your age will probably work for you. From your description it also sounds like you're doing it "right." Get used to everybody passing you when you train. Even when you get much faster, people will still be passing you. Cultivate a self-righteousness about it. Pass them back when you race.

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posted Mar-01-2007 06:13 PM               

Welcome aboard! Obviously you should run in the manner that makes you most happy, but I thought there was a point worth mentioning. If you commit to building base ala Maffetone you need to stay away from the type of runs you described. Running with partners is next to impossible with this method of training. When you are beginning to build your base even the occasional high intensity run will stunt your progress. Many people on this board have complained about their lack of progress and then admit they are doing frequent runs at high intensity. Good luck!

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posted Mar-01-2007 08:04 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stealth26:
leitnerj, and others

A quick question.... When you finished your first and second round of MAF did you ever feel weird ( like you were kind of starting to run all over again) when you started to add speed and tempos? The reason I ask is I hit a plateau during my last MAF (8 weeks) I seemed to be stuck if not regressing, I didn't really do alot of documentation(MAF tests) but I do know my times were not getting better over all, a few mile checks show some regressions, not major however. I figured I may need to do some different type of runs and try to bring everything back together and see how I fair, (tempos, speed work, long runs still done at MAF, and some minor hill work. I started to add some speed work (still slower than you super duper speeders) and my HR seems to stay lower longer, rarely gets as high as it did last year, eventually it will climb up ther though (180 to 190) it does take a little more time and effort. Feels a little weird...not bad, just different, normal? I don't know? Any thoughts on this.

**DTFB**

---

I don't do any speed work or tempos at all, but I run a lot of races.
However, it is difficult for me to push my heart rate high, except
in a race environment, in which case it's not so hard.

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posted Mar-01-2007 08:07 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by tmartell:
I've been doing MAF training for a little over a week. I am a newbie, and I know I could use this kind of training. I would like to build my endurance for longer distances. I am not fast at all, and I run approx 25 miles a week. I use a HRM, and find it less frustrating than when I started. I can actually run now instead of doing the fast walk. Although, my run is very slow, I'm ok with it.

Anyway, today at lunch my coworker ran with me and talked me into running faster than my MAF (she hates to go that slow) so I gave in. It was a great run outside (maybe 45 min or so) not too fast, but I did get my heart rate up fairly high. At the end I decided to see how fast I could go just for fun to get my heart rate way up. I reached 192. Now, is there any way I can change the 180-your age standard, or does it even matter? I'm 35. I would like 192-my age, but does it work the same way??

any comments are appreciated!

---

I'm 37, my max heart rate is 210+, and I run most of my mileage at
139. The 180 has nothing to do with your max heart rate whatsoever,
so knowledge of your max doesn't change the equation (unless your
max is very, very low, at which point you would use a lower MAF
heart rate).

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posted Mar-01-2007 10:00 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Snot Rocket:
Besides the links leitnerj provides, what is the best book on this subject? I see Maffetone wrote a few, but which one is the best? Or is there another book or site out there that is a good reference? The websites give you the basics of the program but is that really all there is to it? I want to start this program next week and would like to read a little more about it.

---

Maffetone's "Training for Endurance" book is great, and being a scientist I like his textbook (Complementary Sports Medicine, Human Kinestics). His website has articles too (www.philmaffetone.com) but I've not read many of them (I'm still listening to his music...).

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posted Mar-02-2007 04:52 AM               

Just curious
What would you consider high in a race?

Does that speed increase feel any different?

One more question, around what HR do you find your best pace to start,on say a marathon? Then by the end what are you at? What is your range of HR drift.

**DTFB**

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posted Mar-02-2007 09:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I'm 37, my max heart rate is 210+, and I run most of my mileage at
139. The 180 has nothing to do with your max heart rate whatsoever,
so knowledge of your max doesn't change the equation (unless your
max is very, very low, at which point you would use a lower MAF
heart rate).

---

Ok.

*hangs head*

I will continue staying below 145. I just need to stay away from all the peer pressure.

Yesterday I blew my MAF out of the water anyway, because when I came home I had to shovel my driveway out (thanks to the plow trucks) in 15 min so I wouldn't miss a concert. That was something to see.

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posted Mar-02-2007 07:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stealth26:
leitnerj,

Just curious
What would you consider high in a race?

Does that speed increase feel any different?

One more question, around what HR do you find your best pace to start,on say a marathon? Then by the end what are you at? What is your range of HR drift.

**DTFB**

---

My best answer would be to point you to races in my running
log, where you can find my splits and average heart rate per
split for virtually all of my marathons. Of course, you can't
glean the hills from it, but it will give you a good idea. I think
I've actually pasted them into some posts earlier in this thread,
but I'll just give you some dates that you can check out in
my running log that are representative of how I run marathons:

2/19/06, 3/5/06, 4/30/06, 6/17/06, 10/14/06, 11/18/06 (50 miler),
11/25/06, 2/18/07

You can tell exactly what I did. There's no doubt it feels different
and running marathons is hard work, but once you've got the
aerobic development, you can keep up a good pace, higher than
you are used to, as long as you can stay mentally focused.

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posted Mar-02-2007 07:20 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by tmartell:
Ok.

*hangs head*

I will continue staying below 145. I just need to stay away from all the peer pressure.

Yesterday I blew my MAF out of the water anyway, because when I came home I had to shovel my driveway out (thanks to the plow trucks) in 15 min so I wouldn't miss a concert. That was something to see.

---

been there done that

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posted Mar-04-2007 03:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by tmartell:
Ok.

*hangs head*

I will continue staying below 145. I just need to stay away from all the peer pressure.

Yesterday I blew my MAF out of the water anyway, because when I came home I had to shovel my driveway out (thanks to the plow trucks) in 15 min so I wouldn't miss a concert. That was something to see.

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Whenever you feel peer pressure from another runner who feels you should be running harder, tell them to shove their sugar-burning body up their arse. But wait, the arse is prt of the body, and their's a negation factor (can shove your arse up your arse). Forget it.

On the snow shoveling and HR front, try wearing your HRM. You'll see it is very aerobic if you pace yourself. I did it once and my HR stayed below my MAF. I considered it cross-training. Whether or not snow shoveling "intervals" done at 95% MHR help is an experiment I haven't tried. Id do find that hard shoveling gives me a superwedgie (requires help from a Gap employee and tongs to undo it), so I go easy.

Good luck.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
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posted Mar-05-2007 09:10 AM            

AM 90 minutes slow on an indoor track, Heartrate 78 to 82.

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posted Mar-05-2007 12:00 PM               

I started Maff training just over a week ago.
I am slightly frustrated about how slow I'm going (read mid-12 minute miles).

On the bright side, my long run yesterday took me out over mill roads that were covered in snow with not a single tire track. I had no worries of slipping or sliding and had a beautiful peaceful run.

The real reason for posting this note is to thank all the contributors; both the gurus and the once in a while posters. It's allowed me to explore a different dimension of running.

So, thanks!

Now just to stick with it.

Namaste,

Obi M

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posted Mar-06-2007 07:53 PM               

8:23/137, 8:25/139, 8:37/140, 8:50/139, 8:30/141,
8:13/141, 8:20/142, 8:48/144, 8:28/144, 8:13/144,
8:09/144, 8:12/145, 8:26/148, 8:44/147, 8:47/147,
8:53/147, 8:46/148, 8:46/149, 8:48/149, 8:53/150,
8:45/151, 8:29/159, 8:34/155, 8:40/155, 8:43/155,
8:51/156, 2:28/159

The course was very flat except for about 4 sections, so
it's a good measure of heart rate drift.

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posted Mar-06-2007 08:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
Monday

AM 90 minutes slow on an indoor track, Heartrate 78 to 82.

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Thank you. I missed this.

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