posted Feb-18-2007 09:20 PM            

The Goal: 3:39 or better based on my half marathon of 1:44 last November.

The result: 3:34:45.

Based on gun times, my first half split was 1:49:48, and my 2nd half was 1:45:56, a negative split of almost 4 minutes.

One thing I noticed was that my HR for the first 4 miles or so was higher than I would normally see given that pace. I think this might be due to taking 4 out of 5 days off leading up to the race, but that's just a guess.

I added 3.5 seconds to each of the split times to account for the increased distance measured by my Garmin, which was expected, of course. So, while the data isn't exact from the Garmin, the splits and heart rate data are consistent, and the
time comes up correct I believe.

Lastly, the temperature was 27 or so at start, which is about 10 degrees below normal for Myrtle Beach this time of year. The wind was calm early on though, thankfully. The temp. at the end of the race was probably 46 and breezy.

MAF HR = 145, Max HR per 5K race = 200.

Here we go:

Mile Split AHR Ele.Ch. Total Time

1 8:35 159 +0 8:35
2 8:22 163 +6 16:57
3 8:26 160 +9 25:23
4 8:27 163 +10 33:50
5 8:16 163 -51 42:06
6 8:25 163 +31 50:31
7 8:17 165 +10 58:48
8 8:08 165 -7 1:06:56
9 8:11 165 -32 1:15:07
10 8:12 165 +0 1:23:19
11 8:05 169 -8 1:31:24
12 8:09 169 +57 1:39:33
13 8:10 168 -26 1:47:43
14 8:05 168 +6 1:55:48
15 8:05 169 +5 2:03:53
16 8:03 169 -9 2:11:56
17 8:05 169 -15 2:20:01
18 7:59 171 -10 2:28:00
19 8:07 171 +74 2:36:07
20 8:08 174 -33 2:44:15
21 8:02 173 +6 2:52:17
22 8:13 173 +23 3:00:30
23 8:13 172 +9 3:08:43
24 8:12 174 -24 3:16:55
25 8:08 174 +43 3:25:03
26 8:01 176 -67 3:33:04
.2 n/a n/a n/a 3:34:45

I'm very happy with the race, and while I'm guessing I could have run a few minutes faster, I wouldn't have wanted to risk it on my first marathon.

Aharmer, I posted some data a few weeks ago, and you estimated my AHR would be 170. It was 168, but I think 170 is closer to where it should be, if not higher given the cool weather. Nice call.

To be quite honest, aerobically I felt very strong. I believe that my limiting factor in this race was simply my leg strength. Overall they are strong, but only as strong as their weakest link, which I think are my abductors/adductors and
probably some hamstrings (compared to my quad strength). I fought a weak/sore groin for a few months, but it went away a few weeks before the marathon, thanfully. So, that will be my cross training focus for the next few months without a doubt.

Another note regarding my training. I ran 270 miles in January, and 180 in December. My wife ran the half marathon yesterday (her first) in 1:58:19 (9:02 pace), following MAF training like me. Last August she was barely able to run 2.5
miles at any pace. Unlike me, she hasn't really lost any weight, as she didn't need to. She's just firming up and becoming an aerobic machine, or that's what I tell her, anyway. Anyway, I run 30 to 40 miles a week with her (10:50 average or so), which equates to about MAF -20 for me. So...take that however you want, but I'm posting some of how I train as a reference if nothing else.

So, the future? I'm going to pace my wife at the Country Music Marathon in Nashville in late April. During our training from now until then I'm going cross train my weak areas, run many, well below MAF miles with her, and also throw in
some speed work as I will be running some 5K's over the spring and summer. Ultimately, if I can lose another 12 to 14 pounds and get down to 185 or so, continue to log healthy miles, then perhaps a shot at a BQ next fall is possible.

Sorry for the verboseness, but thanks again for all the help you have provided.

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posted Feb-19-2007 07:00 AM            

I know there are roughly 3 different kinds, the magnetic resistance, the belt, and a fan one. I know the magnetic one is obviously more expensive but i was thinking the magnetic would likely feel a bit more realistic. I dunno, theres a big difference in price and i was just wondering if it is worth it.

Any suggestions?

[This message has been edited by Stevie B (edited Feb-19-2007).]

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posted Feb-19-2007 08:07 AM               

Awesome job buddy. I think your biggest accomplishment would be quitting smoking, followed by 40+ lbs weight loss. You must feel so great every day compared to the past. Now for that third little accomplishment, a 3:34 debut marathon! You ran a great race from the start. Any negative split is awesome but 4:00+, that's really great. Having the HR data from this race will help you immensely as you prepare for the next one.

I usually see the elevated HR in the beginning miles as well, probably due to the excitement and adrenaline of the race. It could also be the weather as you mentioned.

You may have posted this, but others would probably benefit greatly from hearing about your training prior to the race. Knowing what your training paces were compared to the pace you did the marathon would be a big confidence builder for many.

Great job!

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posted Feb-19-2007 09:39 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:

The result: 3:34:45.

Based on gun times, my first half split was 1:49:48, and my 2nd half was 1:45:56, a negative split of almost 4 minutes.

---

That is simply spectacular! Congratulations on a great performance
and overall transformation of everything! Your heart rate was definitely
higher at first due to taking off 4 or 5 days. That cost you about 2-3
minutes (but you probably made it back in having a little bit less
fatigue later!) Also, with such negative splits, it means you stayed
below the bar and you could have been even a few minutes faster!
Nonetheless, finishing with such negative splits makes the whole experience
so much better and you will definitely recover quickly. I have no doubt
that in your current conditions, an all-out, knock-down, drag-out
performance (as most people run) would nail you 3:25 or better!
Not that it's anything but meaningless, however, other than the fact
that you've saved a little bit for your next. Great job.

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posted Feb-19-2007 09:41 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stevie B:
hey leitnerj (or anyone), u mentioned cross training on a stationary exercise bike was a good way to crosstrain for maf correct? Well, this is not directly related to MAF but i'm going to pick one up, i was wondering if there is anything i should consider before i choose one because i am not very familiar with them.

I know there are roughly 3 different kinds, the magnetic resistance, the belt, and a fan one. I know the magnetic one is obviously more expensive but i was thinking the magnetic would likely feel a bit more realistic. I dunno, theres a big difference in price and i was just wondering if it is worth it.

Any suggestions?

---

I would highly recommend that you try out many of them before
you buy. On some of them you may find that you can't even get
your heart rate up close to MAF because there's simply not enough
resistance.

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posted Feb-20-2007 10:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Hey Doc!

Awesome job buddy. I think your biggest accomplishment would be quitting smoking, followed by 40+ lbs weight loss. You must feel so great every day compared to the past. Now for that third little accomplishment, a 3:34 debut marathon! You ran a great race from the start. Any negative split is awesome but 4:00+, that's really great. Having the HR data from this race will help you immensely as you prepare for the next one.

I usually see the elevated HR in the beginning miles as well, probably due to the excitement and adrenaline of the race. It could also be the weather as you mentioned.

You may have posted this, but others would probably benefit greatly from hearing about your training prior to the race. Knowing what your training paces were compared to the pace you did the marathon would be a big confidence builder for many.

Great job!

---

Thanks Aharmer!

Good point about the training log. For reference here is the link to my Coolrunning log: http://www.coolrunning.com/cgi-bin/log/display.cgi?u=Docster;s=run4life

I also keep all of my splits, etc. using SportTracks with my Garmin, which is very handy.

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posted Feb-20-2007 10:13 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
That is simply spectacular! Congratulations on a great performance
and overall transformation of everything! Your heart rate was definitely
higher at first due to taking off 4 or 5 days. That cost you about 2-3
minutes (but you probably made it back in having a little bit less
fatigue later!) Also, with such negative splits, it means you stayed
below the bar and you could have been even a few minutes faster!
Nonetheless, finishing with such negative splits makes the whole experience
so much better and you will definitely recover quickly. I have no doubt
that in your current conditions, an all-out, knock-down, drag-out
performance (as most people run) would nail you 3:25 or better!
Not that it's anything but meaningless, however, other than the fact
that you've saved a little bit for your next. Great job.

---

Thanks Jesse. I think I could have ran 3:32 or maybe a bit better if I really put everything out there, but for my first marathon, I really wanted to finish solid. (and upright)

And it does, of course, give me confidence going forward as well as the experience which cannot be duplicated in training runs.

Now it's time to start looking for a fall marathon....hrm....so many to consider.

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posted Feb-20-2007 05:02 PM            

I looking into doing something similiar to your plan if I ever get back to running (that's a big if right now).

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posted Feb-20-2007 05:37 PM               

When I started the most recent period of base building it was at about 9:00/mile. In September 2006 I was down to around 8:00/mile at 70%. One long race followed by a few weeks of my only running being at very high HR's eroded my base back to about 9:00 pace. It certainly takes longer to build than it does to erode! Good luck, feel free to shoot me an email if you have questions.

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posted Feb-20-2007 09:50 PM            

I just ran a 20K this weekend as a tuneup for a half marathon mid-March (Shamrock in VA Beach). I was pleased with my time of 1:53. My HR was pretty steady at 168-170 for the race (maxHR = 200 for me). I had negative splits by 1 minute. It was a 2 loop 10K course.

What I noticed most was how tired my legs got. I've done 12 mile training runs before (at/below MAF which is about 10:20's for me.) and never had an issue. Clearly the increased pace was a factor here.

Is this common for everyone else? How do you remedy the issue? Add some tempo runs to the schedule now? Strength training?

I found I was able to keep pace the second lap, but it definitely took more effort. At the time I felt like I was running slower, though the (barely) negative split shows I wasn't. The legs really felt tired though!

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posted Feb-21-2007 09:15 AM            

On the marathon I ran last weekend, it was definitely my leg condition/strength that was my limiting factor. I suspect this is common, especially for someone new to running like I am. I would certainly welcome responses from the more seasoned runners in this thread though.

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posted Feb-21-2007 09:56 AM            

1. going out to fast (1:29 -> 1:36)
2. Tired legs
3. Blister (luckily with 300m left)

Now #1 is controllable. As for #2, I don't know if that was attributable to not taking in enough calories, or just the pounding of 26+ miles. I took gatorade basically every two miles after mile 4 and then more frequently probably 20-22+. I had one gel.

My biggest problem was that the last 4 miles or so of NY is very rolling. I find that puts more strain on your legs that simple flat areas. I had to hold back on downhills for fear of my hamstring or calf muscles blowing out. I think that If I ever run a marathon again, I would try to do more long runs of 22+ miles. I had one run of ~21.8 and one of ~22.3. The rest where about 18.5 to 19.5. I think more time on your feet gets your body used to the pounding.

Hopefully, I'll be able to run Boston 08 after not running this year.
Also, a lot of the street in NY are concrete which doesn't help.

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posted Feb-22-2007 06:21 PM            

I'm a 26 year old female. I've been running off and on for over 8 years, though it wasn't until about 2 years ago that I got more consistent, but still ran mostly for fitness. Last summer I did my first two sprint tri's and have been off and running so to speak ever since then. In that time, I have not had any injuries to speak of. In fact, I haven't had any injuries from running since I started. I owe this to the fact that I am not a speed freak in any sense as well as the fact that I like to quit while I'm ahead.

Current goal is a marathon (my first) that is exactly 94 days away.

Now that the background stuff is out of the way, here is the the crux on my problem. I have been training for the last 6 weeks pretty much doing the MAF thing and I'm not seeing my times budge in the least. There are probably several reasons for this

1.) I have no will power when it comes to diet. I eat 90% organic food, and that is mostly whole grains, fruits & veggies and nuts. However, I have a HUGE sweet tooth and often find myself 'binging' on sweets. I realize this probably means I have a certain level of carbohydrate intolerance. I intend to follow Maffetone's Two-Week plan as soon as I figure out how to do that w/o meat. But really, how much could this be contributing to my lack of results????

2.) I'm wondering if I'm training at the 'right' MAF. I've been training at 154 (MAF-age). But I suspect that I should be more strict and train at 149 or even 144 (no chronic illness to speak of, but I do take the Pill, which I like to think doesn't count because I'm not actually sick, but after reading some more of Training for Endurance, I have a feeling that Dr. Maffetone would say that since it screws with hormonal balance it absolutely counts, but I'm really hoping that some will say it doesn't!). I can generally run up to 10 miles at the MAF of 154 with an average pace around 12:00 mm. I ran at 149 today and had to walk alot- still trying to figure out if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

3.) I am not completely strict about the MAF thing. My marthon traingin schedule calls for one speed/strength session a week, which I have been doing (3 sessions so far), I do swim one day a week on a Master's Swim team and sometimes on hills, I let my HR wander up to 159, just so I don't have to walk. With the very real 'deadline' of a marathon in a little over 3 months, do I really have time to follow a strict MAF training program and still run the marathon ( my goal is to finish in under 5 hours and to run the whole thing!)

So these are my questions:
1.) Which one of the the above transgressions are probably hampering my efforts the most? ie. what should I start 'fixing' first?

2.) Which MAF should I use in order to most quickly and effectively develop my aerobic base? I have obviously lost objectivity in determining this.

3.) I can give up the speed work, but I paid good money to be on the swim team, can I still do that without being completely ineffective with my base-building efforts?

4.) Do I still have time to meet my marathon goals, if I start adhering more strictly to MAF training now?

5.) I was planning to train for two triathlons (Sprint & Oly) after the marathon, but in light of all of the above, I'm wondering if I should wait until next summer and embark on a several months of s extended, strict MAF training. Any thoughts on that? (oh yeah, it may be helpful to know that tis Master's swim session ends in Apr, so after the marathon, I will not have an races or any other excuses to not follow the training to the T if I don't do the tri's.)

One last caveat I'll include and that is this: I realize that in only 6 weeks, I probably haven't given it enough time to see appreciable results. However, given the above admitions as well as the fact that I am having more trouble keeping my weight down then I ever, my intuition tells me that this "plateau" so to speak is the not the positive kind!

Thanks in advance for any and all help you can give and thanks for taking the time to read my lengtheny and verbose post!

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posted Feb-22-2007 11:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChristaM:
I have no will power when it comes to diet.

---

How much protein do you get in your diet? What time of day do you run, and what's your mpw?

It shouldn't come as a surprise that athletically active people need more protein than sedentary folks. Last summer a doc who advises our running group shared some formulas and guidelines used for college athletes and other very active people. I was shocked to find he recommended 1/2 gram protein daily for each pound of body weight, as a minimum. If I reach my goal weight and get my mpw up to 60-70, that can go up to 3/4 gram protein per pound daily.

I mention this because I get a "sweet tooth" if I don't get enough protein in my diet.

My diet came under control when I started running in the early AM (before breakfast, of course) at least 45 min - 1 hour at an easy comfortable pace. Curbs the appetite all day. Just one person's experience, FWIW.

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posted Feb-23-2007 05:27 AM               

"Current goal is a marathon (my first) that is exactly 94 days away."

"do I really have time to follow a strict MAF training program and still run the marathon ( my goal is to finish in under 5 hours and to run the whole thing!)"

I am also thinking about trying this 26.2 thing in like 70ish days....Shooting for 4.5 hrs. However anything under 5hrs. would be ok. I need to find the guts to just do it.

Remember that MAF is a training tool, nothing more, nothing less, just a good training tool.

I would say yes, you have the time. I am assuming that your long run is currently 10 miles.

I would consider using at least four (six might be better) more weeks of MAF training to build your base as well as your mileage up on your long run and your total mileage. This would be benificial as to increasing your mileage and keeping your injury risk to a minimum. This would leave you with 4 to 6 weeks to add some good tempo runs as well as some speed work. I would use your first MAF # just because you started with it already. Next time you could try a lower one, see what works. I am not a fast runner by any ones standards so take all of this in stride....pun intended. I would also try to get in at least three 20 mile runs prior to a full 3 week taper. I wouldn't skimp on the long runs.... from what I have read, they are the most important of all for finishing a full 26.2.

I'm not the best at the diet thing either, nor the speed work thing....me love chocolate but me no like pain!

I think it is great that you are going for it. I don't have alot of answers but there are alot of smart people on this thread that do. Remember this running thing can take some time. Best of luck, keep us posted.

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posted Feb-23-2007 09:21 AM            

My speedwork consisted of running the last 5 to 7 miles of a few of my long runs at marathon pace. Using MAF I was able to log 270 miles in January, and I believe the mileage helped me more than any amount of speedwork would have.

Sure, down the road I will incorporate more advanced workouts into my marathon plans, but for the first one I'm glad I had a few 70 mile weeks under my belt rather than some speedwork on 55 mpw, etc.

My $0.02.

P.S. Good luck with your training!!!

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posted Feb-23-2007 11:22 AM               

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posted Feb-24-2007 02:25 PM            

My question is what has all the walking at MAF done for me? Physiologically, did I gain some benefit that will help as I start again?

Thanks again,
Bev

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posted Feb-24-2007 03:05 PM               

I also have a question for the experts, it's one to do with my wife
She is nearly finished the C25K program, do you think it would be a good idea for her to go into MAFF straight away. She has never run before, she is 5'4" &116 lbs so not overweight and likes running?
Roy

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posted Feb-24-2007 04:42 PM               

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posted Feb-24-2007 04:51 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by heavyweight:
i was under the impression based on articles I read That your body automatically reqruits slow twitch muscles first (fat burner muscles) and recruits only faster twitch if the slow twitch cannot do the job so no matter whether you run slow or fast slower twitch muscles are being trained.

It is based on the central nervous system determining what muscles to use. Now if you are recruiting all your slow twitch musces to run and it is not enough to do the run then your body recruits the faster twitch. I would think if your using the slower twitch muscle at max they will build all the mitrochondria, myoglobin and increase in glycogen storage as well as size?

So can you please explain this to me?

RR

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I'm not sure of the question (it's probably my poor reading), but I recall that training the aerobic muscles teaches them to burn more fat and go faster at the same heart rate. This occurs without any significant anaerobic muscle use. I recall that when Mark Allen first started with Maffetone his pace at 155 hr was around 8 minutes, and a couple of years later (maybe more I don't recall) it was 5:30. (I heard them lecture together in San Jose.)

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posted Feb-24-2007 05:30 PM               

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posted Feb-24-2007 06:23 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by roy c:
Bev, I will let the experts answer your question, glad you are now well and hopefully completely recovered.

I also have a question for the experts, it's one to do with my wife
She is nearly finished the C25K program, do you think it would be a good idea for her to go into MAFF straight away. She has never run before, she is 5'4" &116 lbs so not overweight and likes running?
Roy

---

This approach is absolutely perfect for a newbie runner. They need to build the base mileage and this is the safest and easiest way to accomplish that goal for any race. The only thing to worry about is the possibility of a low heart rate, and that would become obvious within the first week of MAFing.

Just make sure it is something she wishes to do.

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posted Feb-24-2007 06:58 PM               

[This message has been edited by roy c (edited Feb-24-2007).]

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posted Feb-24-2007 07:58 PM            

Quick question - I want to test my max HR and do the initial 2400s test a la Hadd, but I am getting over a cold - should I wait until I am truly better?

My legs have felt dead on the last few runs, but I thought maybe I could still at least do the max HR test by itself. Ok, or not ok?

Thanks!

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