| Author |
Topic: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
 posted Feb-12-2007 07:15 PM
   
The only thing I would add to (and divert from) what Greg said
is that I don't think you should worry about max heart rate at
all, because it really doesn't have much meaning. The important
quantity would be anaerobic threshold. Likewise, at 21, the absolute
MAF number doesn't mean much either. The rule that Maffetone
and Mark Allen use would be to add about 5 beats, but quite frankly
you can probably even go a bit higher than that. The point is that
at age 21, you will have to do some experimentation, but the runs
should probably feel too easy, and when you finish, it will probably
feel like you really didn't do anything. Then you know you're
probably at a good heart rate! As Greg said, you probably don't
have to worry a lot about downhills at the moment, but if it's
convenient, getting some downhill time in will do you some good.------------------
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Stevie B
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-13-2007 12:12 AM
Thanks guys! yeah whenever i come home from a long run or any run for that matter, i pretty much feel like i could do it again. The next day i usually have little to no soreness as well. so at this moment i definitely dont think im overworking. So i guess i will just keep it between 150-159 at least, at that rate i feel invincible. If a few weeks go by and i can keep my pace and drop a few beats perhaps i will stay closer to 150. i guess we'll find out!Thanks again, i will update my results.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-13-2007 05:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Stevie B:
Thanks guys! yeah whenever i come home from a long run or any run for that matter, i pretty much feel like i could do it again. The next day i usually have little to no soreness as well. so at this moment i definitely dont think im overworking. So i guess i will just keep it between 150-159 at least, at that rate i feel invincible. If a few weeks go by and i can keep my pace and drop a few beats perhaps i will stay closer to 150. i guess we'll find out!Thanks again, i will update my results.
That's just the right plan. If you can work your way down to lower
heart rates and a consistent place, that says you're going in the
right direction. ------------------
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TommyL
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-13-2007 09:20 AM
Quick question for anyone,I have been running with the assumption that my MAF is 147 through Maffetone's calculation. Most of the time I have to push it pretty hard( 7 m/m on the TM) to get my HR to 142-143. It doesn't feel easy. This lead me to wonder if my MAF is to high. I did a MHR test on the stepmill and surprisingly found my MHR to be around 173. Hadd suggests something around 125 for this MHR. Should I simply lower to 140 or so or should I go way down to 125-130. Just looking for opinions. Should I try a MHR test on a different day? Does MHR matter?
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-13-2007 07:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by TommyL:
Quick question for anyone,I have been running with the assumption that my MAF is 147 through Maffetone's calculation. Most of the time I have to push it pretty hard( 7 m/m on the TM) to get my HR to 142-143. It doesn't feel easy. This lead me to wonder if my MAF is to high. I did a MHR test on the stepmill and surprisingly found my MHR to be around 173. Hadd suggests something around 125 for this MHR. Should I simply lower to 140 or so or should I go way down to 125-130. Just looking for opinions. Should I try a MHR test on a different day? Does MHR matter?
Indeed it sounds like you're in aharmer's category. You should
definitely use Hadd's HR recommendation for basebuilding. It
will definitely seem very slow at first, but I think it will pay off.
------------------
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 12:25 AM
Yes Tommy, drop back. I had the same experience (176 max HR) when I started and eventually realized I had to go back to 125. With a max HR of 173 your avg marathon HR is probably about 150. ------------------
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Stevie B
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 05:42 AM
i was wondering, if someone has a higher max heart rate, i know it does not have anything to do with current fitness but could it mean greater fitness potential? just something that crossed my mind today.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 06:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Stevie B:
i was wondering, if someone has a higher max heart rate, i know it does not have anything to do with current fitness but could it mean greater fitness potential? just something that crossed my mind today.
Unfortunately it does not and it's all but irrelevant. ------------------
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dcv2002
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 08:39 AM
How do people with kids in school get training in through the winter. Argh. I just starting my (really) slow comeback to running last week after about 3 weeks off. I still thought I had remnants of my upper respiratory infection since my pace was way slower. However, of course I have come down with another cold/virus (4th since early November) so that also could have been the reason for the high HR (started past Saturday). Oh well haven't run since Sat AM, maybe I'll be able to start up again on Fri.I don't know if I'll ever be able to run Boston next year since I wonder if I can get through a winter without being sick all the time!
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gurutc
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 08:53 AM
I have to chime in with a 'thumbs up' on this Heart Rate Stuff.My wife got me a Garmin 305 at the start of December. I'd had to lay off running for a month and a half due to some non-sport-related surgery. I was really bummed because I was signed up for some ultras in late Winter and early Spring. Since I'd lost all of what I thought was my fitness, I had nothing to lose by sticking to the heart rate ranges. I'm 42, but my max HR is 200 from big number readings I have always gotten. I still bumped that down to 190 for safety. I started back running and found myself having to go much slower than what I was used to in order to keep my heart rate in the 130 to 140 range that I wanted to use to stay aerobic and burn fat. This was a 12 min/mile speed range. Keeping it slow like this, I was able to get back up to the serious high mileage I needed for ultras much more quickly than I predicted. Also in 2 months my pace per mile while keeping my heart rate in the 130-140 range dropped to under10 minutes per mile. The most interesting thing is how much this has helped my raw speed without doing any speed work. I can reel off 4 or 5 6:30 minute miles in a row now. It's truly nuts. I've found out that for years I've been running too fast to get any faster. Like my wife said, I needed to slow down to get faster. And I was able to ramp up to high mileage (not recommended, I know) injury-free. I'm in better shape for this year's Mt Mitchell Challenge than I was last year. Get a heart rate monitor and slow down, quick! - gurutc
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 10:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gurutc:
Get a heart rate monitor and slow down, quick!- gurutc
A story very similar to mine! ------------------
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 10:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by dcv2002:
How do people with kids in school get training in through the winter. Argh. I just starting my (really) slow comeback to running last week after about 3 weeks off. I still thought I had remnants of my upper respiratory infection since my pace was way slower. However, of course I have come down with another cold/virus (4th since early November) so that also could have been the reason for the high HR (started past Saturday). Oh well haven't run since Sat AM, maybe I'll be able to start up again on Fri.I don't know if I'll ever be able to run Boston next year since I wonder if I can get through a winter without being sick all the time!
I've found that if I keep putting in the miles, over about 60/wk, I don't
catch any of the crap that my kids bring home. Once I start dipping
down, it all starts to hit me. ------------------
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dcv2002
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 11:44 AM
This is my oldest child's first year in preschool. So I guess (I hope) I'm just building up an immunity to it this winter. Next year he's off to kindergarten. Exposure to even more kids to bring home those fun colds!
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Harper
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 12:34 PM
A question for the experts...How long does it take for one's aerobic base to erode somewhat if one varies from strict low HR training and mixes in too many higher HR runs? I went through a winter funk recently where my paces were 1:00 to 2:00 slower per HR and I'm not entirely sure why. My latest thinking is that in the month or two prior, I added some faster HR work 2 or 3 times a week (up to MAF+5) rather than keeping it at or below MAF-5. It seemed like a good idea at the time; in fact, for the first 3 or 4 weeks of the faster HR work, I got faster at all paces and my HR got lower. Then suddenly it just seemed like the wheels fell off. Be that as it may, I'm back to strict MAF-5 or below training now.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 01:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Harper:
A question for the experts...How long does it take for one's aerobic base to erode somewhat if one varies from strict low HR training and mixes in too many higher HR runs? I went through a winter funk recently where my paces were 1:00 to 2:00 slower per HR and I'm not entirely sure why. My latest thinking is that in the month or two prior, I added some faster HR work 2 or 3 times a week (up to MAF+5) rather than keeping it at or below MAF-5. It seemed like a good idea at the time; in fact, for the first 3 or 4 weeks of the faster HR work, I got faster at all paces and my HR got lower. Then suddenly it just seemed like the wheels fell off. Be that as it may, I'm back to strict MAF-5 or below training now.
Alas, it's another one of those very individual things and it depends
on where you were when you started. I've had times where just a
a couple of weeks of many runs over MAF have seemed to set me
back by 4 weeks! ------------------
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 01:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Stevie B:
i was wondering, if someone has a higher max heart rate, i know it does not have anything to do with current fitness but could it mean greater fitness potential? just something that crossed my mind today.
Negative. At the end of my marathon my HR was at 217. So I would guess that my Max HR is somewhere in the 220s. I still have to build areobic fitness, just like everyone else. It definatly does not mean I can go any faster. I would guess that my anerobic threshold is average. Overall fitness deals with more than just heart rate anyway. If I have the genetic potential to be 'fitter' than someone else, then I will be. If not, then I won't. I know that if I keep up with this type of basebuilding, I will reach a greater fitness level than the 'everyday is raceday' mentality that most follow out in the real world. I guess I am saying that it is all relative. ------------------
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sansmap
Member |
posted Feb-14-2007 08:55 PM
A question for the forum: I am 43, have run regularly for many years, and currently run 20-25 miles/wk. I am looking to run a sub-5 mile later this year (in high 5's now). I started reading this forum and decided to give the low HR training a try. For the first week or so, I used 142 as my target zone max HR (185-43). Then I got a heart rate monitor, and after giving it some data and letting it run its test, it gave me a target zone of 116-152. So this week, I've been staying under 152.The question, then, is which is the right one for training. The 152 feels fine, although obviously a bit more strenuous than the 142. My mile times at 152 over 5 miles start around 7:30 and end around 8:15, while at 142 I have more difficulty managing it and need to slow to more than 10 min miles at some points. Any thoughts on what is the best way to determine which one to use as my max? Thanks! John
http://sub-5.blogspot.com/
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 09:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by sansmap:
A question for the forum: I am 43, have run regularly for many years, and currently run 20-25 miles/wk. I am looking to run a sub-5 mile later this year (in high 5's now). I started reading this forum and decided to give the low HR training a try. For the first week or so, I used 142 as my target zone max HR (185-43). Then I got a heart rate monitor, and after giving it some data and letting it run its test, it gave me a target zone of 116-152. So this week, I've been staying under 152.The question, then, is which is the right one for training. The 152 feels fine, although obviously a bit more strenuous than the 142. My mile times at 152 over 5 miles start around 7:30 and end around 8:15, while at 142 I have more difficulty managing it and need to slow to more than 10 min miles at some points. Any thoughts on what is the best way to determine which one to use as my max? Thanks! John
http://sub-5.blogspot.com/
Of course, you know the answer. It's entirely up to you. If you
want to follow the primary approach recommended here, you'll
target 142, and really try to spend a good deal of time at 137
or less. Once you get to where you have a good pace in the
130s, you'll want to mix in some good speed work if your focus
is the 1 mile. I actually brought my 1 mile race time from the
low 6s to 5:36 after not much time of purely low HR training
with an average pace of around 10-11 min/mile. ------------------
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gurutc
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-14-2007 09:41 PM
Ok, I posted earlier. In 2-1/2 months with a 140 target and 42 years old here's the poop on getting that mile time under 5 minutes.At mile 5 of an 8 mile trail run I met up with a friend who's training for the Olympic Marathon Trials. Remember, I've been HR training at 12 to 10 minute miles... We threw down a couple of 6:30 miles and brought it home with a final mile of 4:54 uphill on trails. Believe it or don't. But here's some more poop. It crapped me out for 2 weeks. You go for speed and you use up the aerobic base in one run if you push it that hard. It is so completely non-intuitive that it'll blow your tiny mind. Slow it down, keep it down, and then lock up the women and children. - gurutc
[This message has been edited by gurutc (edited Feb-14-2007).]
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sansmap
Member |
posted Feb-15-2007 05:58 AM
ok, thanks for the replies. i'd like to give this low HR training a shot. you guys have made some impressive gains (though I still don't understand this idea of 'losing' the gains by running fast on occasion - the body just doesn't usually work that way.)Just out of curiosity, what are your resting HR's like? thanks again.
john
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-15-2007 07:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by sansmap:
ok, thanks for the replies. i'd like to give this low HR training a shot. you guys have made some impressive gains (though I still don't understand this idea of 'losing' the gains by running fast on occasion - the body just doesn't usually work that way.)Just out of curiosity, what are your resting HR's like? thanks again.
john
http://sub-5.blogspot.com/
Personally, I don't see (physiologically) how occasional fast running will result in lost gains except in an indirect way. Even hardcore LSDer like Van Aaken and Joe Henderson allow up to 5% or so of harder running. That said, I've been racing more this winter (every other week or so) and it can be disruptive to base-building because of the recovery time. When I wasn't racing, 60mpw became very habitual and easy. During the week, it was just something I did after brushing my teeth. Now, I'm getting it done but have been pretty sore, never quite catching up between races. Resting HR? I've never slept with my HRM or tried to catch it after I wake up, but I had kind of a lazy Saturday morning with a full night's rest last weekend and saw 42 before I headed out the door for a run. Before I started running a couple of years ago, it was ~70. Greg
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gurutc
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-15-2007 09:45 AM
The temporary lost gains come from soreness and torn fast twitch fibers from the extreme sprinting. While that's rebuilding, the whole system's gonna be out of whack. So in my case, the aerobic stuff isn't broken, it's just offline while injured muscles heal.The Low Heart Rate Training builds the foundation for speed with enhanced heart and lung function as well as increased capillary and vessel growth allowing the fast twitch muscles to get a lot more oxygen and flush faster. After a base building stage, regular speedwork would prevent this tear-related soreness. Where racing breaks the low heart rate stuff is when you're cutting way back on the long slow miles to do speedwork and races. If you can keep the long slow stuff in the picture, you'll have a chance to keep aerobic fitness, but you're still dealing with the endocrine stuff that comes from running fast. Sounds like BS from a newbie, right? Actually not a newbie. I used to train like this way back in the day when Derek Clayton had a column in Runners World. He said, over and over, long slow distance. I just had to be forced to remember. - gurutc [This message has been edited by gurutc (edited Feb-15-2007).]
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gurutc
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-15-2007 09:49 AM
Resting HR pre Low HR training: 54Resting HR after 3 months Low HR training: 42 - gurutc
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-15-2007 10:32 AM
When I'm in "rebuilding mode" after a lot of races or
after a few weeks break, my RHR is around 52-54 or so.
When I'm at my aerobic peak it's about 38. ------------------
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sansmap
Member |
posted Feb-15-2007 11:58 AM
great feedback, guys. thanks again.
looking forward to my new and improved aerobic base!
i'll let you know if i reach my goal (targeting late summer).john
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