posted Feb-05-2007 09:05 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by bdags:
I've been experimenting with run/walk on most of my runs.(run 3 or 4 minutes/walk 1 minute) I'm also trying to keep my heart rate under MAF (143 for me right now). This feels much better because I am able to run at a faster pace with increased turnover than if I just ran the whole time. The overall pace per mile ends up being a little slower, but, fairly close.

I will typically average 132 bpm on a 5 miler with a max HR of about 147-148. My HR typically will start touching the low-mid 140s during the running segments of miles 4 & 5 and then drop down into the mid-high 120's after walking for 1 minute. Is the average HR too low? To get the average up I would be exceeding MAF too often. If it is, I may have to ditch the run/walk idea, but, I'd rather not.

Any thoughts?

---

Doesn't sound too low. Whether you do run/walk or not depends on
your objectives. At some point here, you should be able to transition
to all run, if that's what you want. I think you'll see more aerobic
benefit that way, but at the moment, it sounds like a good way to
build up.

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posted Feb-05-2007 09:11 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Well Maf training got me a one hour pr on my marathon today.

Unfortunately, I could have done even better if I could have held it together past mile 20.

The heart rate was great, right on target through 20. After the pain set in and I slowed down, the heart beat dropped 8-10 beats below target.

My target was 20 beats over maf for the whole race.

My calves and hamstrings got sore and I had to slow down.

Guessing I need more long runs over 20 next time. This time did 2 20's and one 23 miler.

Didn't hurt as bad in the race as I did on the training runs, but enough to slow me significantly.

---

Can't complain about an hour PR! If your heart rate was sinking,
it seems to indicate you were running low on glycogen. Certainly
more long runs would be helpful in this regard. It's possible that
you needed a slightly lower HR target. Each race is definitely a
new lesson learned, but there's no doubt you're going in the right
direction, and fast!

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posted Feb-05-2007 09:16 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dcv2002:
New to this thread, but have been following it.

Am coming back from a bout of "overtraining" and illness, which has caused me to 1. Abort running the Boston Marathon and 2. miss basically 23 days of running.

After getting the full medical workup, since "overtraining" make you think everything is wrong with you, I've got a clean bit of health. So I've decided that since Boston is out the way, I want to build up a good aerobic base if I somehow get into New York in the fall.

I'm 34 (will be 35 in April), so I'm assuming that my MAF would be 145. I had been running on average of 50+mpw before I stopped. I am going to gradually come back by running ~3.75 miles a day for 12 days, then jump up to about 6 miles a day for the next 11 days.

I would like to be up to around 80-90 mpw by the end of June. I will run races during this period, but plan on doing no speedwork, etc.

So, should I be doing MAF (180-Age) or about MAF+5 (150) after my 3 week comeback period?

---

Assuming you don't have a very low max heart rate as aharmer
mentions, you should do your best with the lower target to the
best of your abilities. It may take a few weeks to really figure out
how to stabilize at that low of a heart rate. That will also be your
best way to safely build up mileage without a likelihood of reaggravating
things.

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Feb-05-2007).]

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posted Feb-05-2007 11:07 PM            

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posted Feb-05-2007 11:29 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Well Maf training got me a one hour pr on my marathon today.

Unfortunately, I could have done even better if I could have held it together past mile 20.

The heart rate was great, right on target through 20. After the pain set in and I slowed down, the heart beat dropped 8-10 beats below target.

My target was 20 beats over maf for the whole race.

My calves and hamstrings got sore and I had to slow down.

Guessing I need more long runs over 20 next time. This time did 2 20's and one 23 miler.

Didn't hurt as bad in the race as I did on the training runs, but enough to slow me significantly.

---

Congratulations, Cash. A 1 hour PR is a testament to your hard work and perserverance.

In the future, don't slow down. Just don't. You weren't low on glycogen, just a few swiss cheese legs. You can still maintain pace if you haven't hit the wall. It's har, and your heart rate will get higher (one reason I don't wear it in races--you see your heart rate getting high and you panic). The one race where my legs were toast, and began to slow, and was wearing a HRM (for data gathering), I realized I could pick up the pace, even though my legs hurt badly from 12 straight miles of downhill running (after 11 miles of up, up, up). I finished the race with my fastest miles. When I looked at my HR after the race, I saw that it kept creeping higher and higher. Essentially I raced the last 3 miles at 5k heart rate, just to maintain a pace slightly faster than the average for the entire race. I hit my max heart rate in the last few hundred yards ("sprinting" for a BQ by 27 seconds). That was the race where I learned that slowing down is a choice, unless of course the glyco tank has truly hit E, or you've hit a strong headwind, or the HRM has become pack leader.

Again, AWESOME!

--Jimmy

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posted Feb-05-2007 11:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I've been out of town with limited internet access

---

I find that if I chew on a kiwi flavored ethernet cable it get's me through such times. One of the many ways flavored and scented ethernet cables can keep you mentally stable and multidimensionally satisfied.

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posted Feb-06-2007 12:09 AM            

So I start with the MAF runs and HR monitor and now I'm digging deep on the TM at 8.5-9.0 min./mile pace. My buddy is in absolute shock. I'm sweating like a pig and just want to get done except the mileage readout is going soooo slow. Long story short I thought this would be easier. It is absolutely not.Somebody tell me this is normal.

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posted Feb-06-2007 12:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyL:
Just checking in for some reassurance. I've been MAFfing for about 3 weeks now. I ran a 3:18 marathon in Dec. running into a headwind so I felt like I had some aerobic fitness.
Most days of the week I ran from my office to the gym(approx. 2 mi.), set the treadmill at 8.6 mph(6:58 min./mi.), ran for 5-7 miles depending on how long I had and then ran back to the office. I ran on the TM next to a buddy and was conversational the whole way.

So I start with the MAF runs and HR monitor and now I'm digging deep on the TM at 8.5-9.0 min./mile pace. My buddy is in absolute shock. I'm sweating like a pig and just want to get done except the mileage readout is going soooo slow. Long story short I thought this would be easier. It is absolutely not.Somebody tell me this is normal.

---

Standard. You are going to hate life for a couple of months. Then you will be allright.

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posted Feb-06-2007 12:19 AM            

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posted Feb-06-2007 12:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyL:
Just checking in for some reassurance. I've been MAFfing for about 3 weeks now. I ran a 3:18 marathon in Dec. running into a headwind so I felt like I had some aerobic fitness.
Most days of the week I ran from my office to the gym(approx. 2 mi.), set the treadmill at 8.6 mph(6:58 min./mi.), ran for 5-7 miles depending on how long I had and then ran back to the office. I ran on the TM next to a buddy and was conversational the whole way.

So I start with the MAF runs and HR monitor and now I'm digging deep on the TM at 8.5-9.0 min./mile pace. My buddy is in absolute shock. I'm sweating like a pig and just want to get done except the mileage readout is going soooo slow. Long story short I thought this would be easier. It is absolutely not.Somebody tell me this is normal.

---

Wicked normal.
And wicked temporary.

--Jimmy

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[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Feb-06-2007).]

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posted Feb-06-2007 09:49 AM            

Anyways, I ran a 3:06 marathon at NY. Was training for Boston, was going OK, but a cold which turned into a upper respiratory infection, plus running 70 miles in a week in cold weather made me hit the wall.

That last week I had run 7 miles @ ~8:20 with Avg HR of 134. Towards the end of the week, my HR would should up high quickly at a slower pace (~9:00/mile). I knew something was off.. So now its three weeks later with absolutely no running or any exercise.

Today, I ran ~2.7 miles in 30:00. Rather slow. Kept HR under 145. Avg ~133 for total run. Actually was walking at ~4.2mph the first 6 minutes as I didn't want to jump right into things. I think I first have to mentally get back into running, as I was actually nervous before the run, like before a race when you notice your HR jumps up about 10 beats.

For the rest of the week I'm just going to do 30 minutes with HR never going over 145.

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Assuming you don't have a very low max heart rate as aharmer
mentions, you should do your best with the lower target to the
best of your abilities. It may take a few weeks to really figure out
how to stabilize at that low of a heart rate. That will also be your
best way to safely build up mileage without a likelihood of reaggravating
things.

---

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posted Feb-06-2007 11:58 AM               

I was in the exact situation about a year ago while preparing for Boston. All my runs were 7:00 pace or faster. I started Maffing in May 2006 and have loved every minute of it. Hopefully you'll get used to the slower paces, I actually enjoyed slowing down and being able to relax during runs instead of hammering every time.

And you won't be running this pace forever. In September/October last year my pace at 125bpm was down below 8:00/mile. That base was eroded through light mileage and racing for a few months but it's already come back down to about 8:15 again. Just be sure to give it a legitimate shot before giving it up, then you'll be confident in whatever decision you make.

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posted Feb-06-2007 05:57 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dcv2002:
Well, here's some history. My max is basically right at my 220-age formula, though I've just got a working HR monitor back, but when I had my old HR monitor I got up to 186 during a 10k.

Anyways, I ran a 3:06 marathon at NY. Was training for Boston, was going OK, but a cold which turned into a upper respiratory infection, plus running 70 miles in a week in cold weather made me hit the wall.

That last week I had run 7 miles @ ~8:20 with Avg HR of 134. Towards the end of the week, my HR would should up high quickly at a slower pace (~9:00/mile). I knew something was off.. So now its three weeks later with absolutely no running or any exercise.

Today, I ran ~2.7 miles in 30:00. Rather slow. Kept HR under 145. Avg ~133 for total run. Actually was walking at ~4.2mph the first 6 minutes as I didn't want to jump right into things. I think I first have to mentally get back into running, as I was actually nervous before the run, like before a race when you notice your HR jumps up about 10 beats.

For the rest of the week I'm just going to do 30 minutes with HR never going over 145.

---

From what you describe, it sounds like you may still have a bit
of your infection. Your approach sounds good. Take it easy until
you get back to your normal pace.

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posted Feb-07-2007 12:52 PM            

My observation. At about 30 minutes I was able to increase speed and incline a bit because my HR dropped below 135. Any ideas of the cause of this? Did I just run a 30 minute warm-up and a 15 minute run? Is this normal or should I be concerned about something?

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posted Feb-07-2007 02:03 PM            

Since its probably impossible to run an entire run exactly at MAF (due to lower HR in beginning). I guess you will always see your average HR for a run at MAF to be below your MAF. How much below the MAF is your Ave HR?

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posted Feb-07-2007 03:21 PM               

I see the same phenomenon in most of my treadmill runs. I usually have to slow down very gradually for a couple miles, then my HR slows and I can gradually speed back up to the point where I'm at my initial speed. Not sure what causes this but I've heard others comment on this as well. It's a good feeling isn't it?

dvc,

Everybody's a bit different. I set the TM at a speed that takes me about 2 miles to reach my Maf HR. I usually stabilize for a period, then have to slow about 0.2 mph for a few miles. Then I usually get to speed back up due to my HR lowering. When I'm able to run 3-4 miles before reaching my Maf HR I know it's time to start the run 0.1mph faster.

You are correct in your assumption that avg HR for a run should be below your Maff target number. My number is 125 and my avg is almost always 121-124. If your runs are averaging more than your Maff number you know that you're being a bit too loose on the drift.

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[This message has been edited by aharmer (edited Feb-07-2007).]

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posted Feb-09-2007 03:55 PM               

i guess my question is...how do you know when you're running too slow?

i mean, i felt very comfortable for my first 'maf-style' run...not out of breath at all! it's definitely been a weird experience compared to my quicker 10-15K runs I'd do. my joints did ache a little in my legs and hips afterwards...(as if doing a really really long walk 'ache')
felt like my lungs got a bit of a 'stretch', my mid section felt slightly tight as well

is the ache resulting in my body's needing the time to adapt to the slower, longer running?

unfortunately i don't have a heartrate monitor to refer to...been checking my pulse frequency and from time to time i'll blurt out some gibberish to make sure i can breathe and talk clearly...that's my 'monitor' right there

[This message has been edited by tatrunner (edited Feb-09-2007).]

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posted Feb-09-2007 05:15 PM            

I started MAF training in August 2006. I was making good, slow and steady progress using MAF-5 (=140). After 3+ months, in late November, I mixed in a few days of HR 140-150 in the spirit of Stu Mittleman. I saw even more progress. I was now running 7 days a week, 25-45 miles per week. I could run a 9:00 min/mile at HR 148-ish. I could run 10:30 min/mile at HR 130-ish.

Fast forward to mid-January. I took 4 days off. No good reason, I wasn't really tired or anything, but I figured it would be a good break for my body. When I resumed running, it was as if I'd lost all my progress. For a given HR, my paces were 1:00 to 2:00 min/mile slower.

That was 3 weeks ago. I took 5 days easy and ran 20-30 minutes each day. Now I'm into my regular schedule again but my paces and HRs are awful. All that great progress I made is gone. GONE.

I'm not sick. I think I'm eating well. My legs feel fresh and strong. I'm sleeping well.

I'm completely at a loss to explain what's going on and how to get back to where I was.

Help me, Obi-wan Kenobi. You're my only hope...

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posted Feb-09-2007 11:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Harper:
Help!!

I started MAF training in August 2006. I was making good, slow and steady progress using MAF-5 (=140). After 3+ months, in late November, I mixed in a few days of HR 140-150 in the spirit of Stu Mittleman. I saw even more progress. I was now running 7 days a week, 25-45 miles per week. I could run a 9:00 min/mile at HR 148-ish. I could run 10:30 min/mile at HR 130-ish.

Fast forward to mid-January. I took 4 days off. No good reason, I wasn't really tired or anything, but I figured it would be a good break for my body. When I resumed running, it was as if I'd lost all my progress. For a given HR, my paces were 1:00 to 2:00 min/mile slower.

That was 3 weeks ago. I took 5 days easy and ran 20-30 minutes each day. Now I'm into my regular schedule again but my paces and HRs are awful. All that great progress I made is gone. GONE.

I'm not sick. I think I'm eating well. My legs feel fresh and strong. I'm sleeping well.

I'm completely at a loss to explain what's going on and how to get back to where I was.

Help me, Obi-wan Kenobi. You're my only hope...

---

Losing 1-2:00 in pace at the same HR after 4 days rest doesn't sound right. Not saying it's impossible. Just doesn't sound right.

That being said. You are where you are, and like everything else in life-- except untreated toenail fungus--it's temporary.

Keep it going. Keep the Parker in the mix since it was working so well.

--Jimmy
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posted Feb-10-2007 12:42 AM            

Did I run too fast in the 140-150 zone and lose fitness; if so, why did I get faster from it?

Am I eating enough and getting enough protein? I think I am.

Am I overtrained? My legs feel fresh, I'm sleeping well, and I haven't been sick in over a year, colds included.

Is the 0-degree weather making my HR higher? Yet I ran the other day on a treadmill and my HR and pace still wasn't much improved over outdoor running.

I just can't figure out why there was a sudden decrease in my HR and pace.

But ultimately, you're right. The only thing I can do is just accept where am and keep training. I feel like I'm playing Chutes & Ladders and just slid down a big chute.

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posted Feb-10-2007 02:45 AM               

I started a new 8 to 10 weeks of maf again and seem to be really slow??????? Like I was ever fast right!!!! I am seeing the same 1.5 to 2 min slower times. I also know now that if your truely sick your HR will climb around 10 points. I have had this problem for the last 3 days. I have to beat this cold/possibly the flu thing before I can even consider running any long runs over 10 miles. I'm thinking that this is the season for colds and flu, I feel as if i'm in pure survival mode just trying to make it to spring in tact. Once I can get back outside...(alot of boring teadmill miles this winter) its been way to cold here for me to even consider running outside (alot of - temps) I will then be more able to focus on improving my times and speeds. I figure that I now have a 12 week sesion and another 8+ weeks of pure arobic base to run on this coming season. I think at the very least I have a better foundation to build on than I did a year ago. Time will tell. I just keep hoping that all of the sick people will stay away until I can run away. Best of luck.

**DTFB**

[This message has been edited by Stealth26 (edited Feb-10-2007).]

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posted Feb-10-2007 09:16 AM            

Then I thought it must be overtraining. Although I don't seem to have any other symptoms and I took 5 easy days and that made no difference.

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posted Feb-10-2007 07:04 PM               

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posted Feb-12-2007 06:30 AM            

So this is directed to anyone, i value everyones opinion!

Anyhoo, a brief history: Im 21 years of age, which would give me a MAF of 159. My MHR is 199. I do not know my AT, ive never been to any lab to do any tests. I started running January of last year, however ive taken many many breaks here and there, basically i have not been running very consistantly. It was not until this past christmas that i have begun to take running more seriously (i got a HRM for christmas from my beautiful girlfriend woo!)

in 2006 i ran two races (a 10k and a HM). Keep in mind i did not research any training strategies or anything. I simply went to the track, and ran as hard as i could to the point where i could hardly walk home.

sporting life 10k (may 7th 06)
= 0:53:39

Scotiabank Toronto Waterfront Half-marathon (sept 27 06)
= 2:20:13.8

As you can see my times do not match up at all. Which after reading this thread, leaves me to believe my aerobic ability needs some work. according to mcmillan calculator my HM should have been closer to 1:59:23.

After reading over everyones experiences using MAF here, i dont think i have anything to lose. In the past 4 weeks ive begun "lower" heart rate training but not exactly at maf. It was not until the past 2 runs that i have been trying to stay at or below maf.

It would be helpful to note that i am doing the same 10k again this year in may, and this time instead of a half marathon in september (29th, so almost october), i am going for the full marathon. I have a lot of time off from college and work between now and next september so i have all the time in the world to pack on the miles (which would be safer if i do MAF style workouts from what ive read)

Im currently at 30 MPW running 3 days and resting in between. I have been steadily increasing my mileage weekly by 20% (yes i took a step back after 3 weeks) and i do intend to slow it down probably after next week to around 10-15% to where i feel comfortable. Once i get up there in the mileage i realize i will have to run maybe 5-6 days, but as of now i want to play it safe and ease into things. Apparently its better to run longer 3 day runs rather than shorter 5 or 6 day weekly runs. I hope to eventually hit around 60 MPW if my body can handle that.

Now for my questions:

1. Iive heard alot of "if you are in your low 20's (20-25) or over 55, you may need to alter your MAF rate". Alter it how? should i add +5 bpm to my maf, or take some off? 159 BPM is already 80% my MHR. If it is of any help, when i run at my age-based MAF (159 bpm) im running 12:24 per mile.

2. I just wanted to clarify this downhill running business. I seem to remember Jessie mentioning 10% of my total mileage should be downhill @ maf? I may be wrong but i think i remember correctly. What % decline is considered a good downhill (how steep it too steep?). I always run outdoors, so i would have to estimate but i have run on a treadmill in the past, so i could get a good idea on what is sufficient.

Also, when i run my downhills, would it work if i did it all in one workout? because where i run, there arent too many hills, there are some but not even close to 10% of the course. I was thinking of running downtown (even though i hate running on the busy streets, i think it is the only place i can get a good steady decline).

3. I think it would be really cool if i could finish the marathon in 3:45-4:00 (or better!), do you think that is possible with 32 weeks? I really dont care how i do on he 10k race.

4. How long should i do strictly MAF training for optimum results? is the 12 week period enough?

If it matters at all, im 5'9'' 165 lbs, which gives me a BMI of about 25.1! which just barely throws me in the overweight catagory... I've been steadily losing weight these past few weeks though and hope to lose about 20 lbs and stay around 145 maybe which would give me a healthy BMI of 21.7. Perhaps by dropping a few pounds it will help out along the way as well.

So theres me, if you took the time to read it thanks. Any comments are appreciated.

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posted Feb-12-2007 06:28 PM            

quote:

---

1. Iive heard alot of "if you are in your low 20's (20-25) or over 55, you may need to alter your MAF rate". Alter it how? should i add +5 bpm to my maf, or take some off? 159 BPM is already 80% my MHR. If it is of any help, when i run at my age-based MAF (159 bpm) im running 12:24 per mile.

---

I think you're probably running at too high a heart rate by MAF standards. If you look at the 80% LT prescription, your LT would have to equal your max heart rate to justify 160bpm. My LT is somewhere around 185 and I'd guess yours is somewhere around there. 80% of 185 is 148, so I'd ultimately aim for 150bpm or less.

However, since you're already running 12+ min/mi, running slower might be frustrating enough to not stick with the program. I'd suggest lowering your target HR as you improve until you're running under 150.

quote:

---

2. I just wanted to clarify this downhill running business. I seem to remember Jessie mentioning 10% of my total mileage should be downhill @ maf? I may be wrong but i think i remember correctly. What % decline is considered a good downhill (how steep it too steep?). I always run outdoors, so i would have to estimate but i have run on a treadmill in the past, so i could get a good idea on what is sufficient.

---

Don't worry about the downhills. The point of that is to maintain the neuromuscular coordination needed for speed. Given your 10K and half times, turnover isn't what's limiting you at the moment.

quote:

---

3. I think it would be really cool if i could finish the marathon in 3:45-4:00 (or better!), do you think that is possible with 32 weeks? I really dont care how i do on he 10k race.

---

I definitely think it's possible. Don't invest too much into a specific time goal though. Race times are just an indicator of where you are fitness-wise. Work on your fitness and the times will come.

quote:

---

4. How long should i do strictly MAF training for optimum results? is the 12 week period enough?

---

Keep with it at least 8 weeks and then until you're not seeing improvement. Then work on something else and come back when that stops working. Given what you've told us, I think you'll see a big improvement.

On the mileage schedule, you provided, I think you might be in danger of getting injured, especially running at 80% MaxHR. I did something similar at 33 and got hurt. You are 21, however, so that probably makes you bullet-proof. I would spread that 30 mpw over 5 days and then go to 6 days as you work up. teamoregon.com has some nice plans, including base-building schedules, that cover a 6-month marathon buildup.

Good luck and let us know how you're doing.
Greg

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