posted Feb-01-2007 12:31 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by labhiker:
has anyone experienced a period in the maf base building phase where you develop the need to take several brief walking breaks inorder to stay below target MAF limits?

Im trying to break through what appears to be a stagnant period in MAF development and am forcing myself to NEVER go above target MAF (135bpm). If I see the HR monitor rise to 140-142, I first try to reduce the HR by slowing down for a few seconds (althrough Im already slow averaging around 10:50 per mile). If there is no immediate change I stop running and walk for 5 seconds until the montior responds.

It seems like my training may be slipping backwards as I have not taken brief walking breaks for some time. Otherwise, I question if I had become accustom to cheating a little and overlooked the need to always stay below MAF.

Has anyone experienced this situation as they try to re-focus MAF training goals.

Similarly, my average training pace seems to have slowed about 30sec per mile (currently 10:45 pace +/-)

---

When you write you have "slowed about 30 sec per mile" what are you comparing that to? Was it to training miles done at the same HR, or higher?

10:45 pace isn't bad. I'm at that speed right now, and don't feel I need to walk at all. The only time I have had t walk was in the beginning of my experiments with this stuff. At the end of a few runs, I had slowed down to 14-15:00 per mile, and found I could walk faster and have a lower HR.

Temporary.

Describe one of your runs (include splits with ave HR every mile).

Thanks.

--Jimmy

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posted Feb-01-2007 01:04 PM            

my reference to slowing down by 30 seconds was with respect to my average training pace for a run and the run being completed with an average heart rate at or below MAF (130-135bbp).

In general, I try to run 5-6 days a week and log about 30-35miles per week. My typical runs during the work week generally range between 3-7 miles, with a common run being 5-5.75miles. Weekend runs are longer to push weekly totals towards the 30 range.

Ive been completing all runs so my average hr is at or slightly below MAF. Im now trying to adopt a strict program which limits my max HR to MAF and does not allow for temporary elevation above MAF. For the past few weeks it seems that I am back to a few walk breaks to keep below MAF ceiling.

Running various routes to keep things fresh, I don't always recordmiles & split times and simply review performance based on average results.

I'll share more details on a few runs in the near future (mile & split times).

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posted Feb-01-2007 05:10 PM            

I can adjust the paces given in the book to fit more of a Hadd-like model. That should not be a problem as he gives a good idea on how to do that in the book. The questions are:

1) How do I adjust this plan to an 8-week peak schedule?

2) How rough is the transition from MAFing to the Pfitzinger plans?

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posted Feb-01-2007 08:43 PM               

It took me about 250 miles to start to see results.

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posted Feb-02-2007 09:01 AM            

I really like the concept of this training and I do know of a person that has had success, but for me it is having the opposite effect. Here's my story:

I'm 43 and have been running consistantly for 8 years. The last 3 years I've gotten more serious and have averaged about 40mpw. My PRs are 19:20 for 5K, 1:38:20 for 1/2 mar, and 3:22 for marathon. In high school I was a sprinter and I'm definitely a fast twitch muscle person. When I first strapped on the HR monitor and tried to stay below 145 bpm, I averaged about 9:30 pace for 4 miles on a treadmill. This made me realize that I had never, I mean NEVER, had a training run below this HR. My easy runs were usually 8:00 - 8:30 pace. Anyway, here's some data over the last 4 weeks at the same distance (4 miles) on a treadmill.
Jan 3: 9:28 avg pace, 144 avg HR
Jan 4: 9:50, 142
Jan 10: 8:55, 140 (seemed encouraging)
Jan 12: 8:56, 142 (still seemed encouraging)
Jan 15: 9:01, 141
Jan 17: 9:22, 143 (seems like its going the wrong way)
Jan 23: 9:33, 142
Jan 24: 9:09, 142
Jan 30: 10:14, 133 (experimenting with lower HR)
Jan 31: 10:00, 140

Even a more noticable decline from the data for 7 miles on the treadmill.
Jan 11: 8:56, 142
Jan 18: 9:15, 142
Jan 25: 9:38, 143
Feb 1: 10:38, 137

Results Summary: Made a quick gain the first week, but since then it's been a steady decline over the last 3 weeks. I thought that maybe the increased HR was because I was about to become ill. After 3 weeks, I'm still "about to become ill" with no symptoms of an illness, so I don't think that's the case.

Finally, I did two Hadd style tests where I ran 1 mile at 4 different HRs with a 90 second rest in between. These were done on a treadmill with the same warmup routine.
Jan 9:
145bpm, 8:53 mile
155, 8:12
165, 7:37
175, 6:57

Jan 28:
145bpm, 9:06
155, 8:26
165, 7:52
175, 7:03

These results also show I'm getting slower.

I'm willing to be patient to ride this out, but I would have expected no improvement as opposed to a degradation. Getting slower really worries me.

Help please! Anyone else see similar result during their first 4 weeks?

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posted Feb-02-2007 02:04 PM               

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posted Feb-02-2007 07:35 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Helgeson:
MAF training making me slower!?

These results also show I'm getting slower.

I'm willing to be patient to ride this out, but I would have expected no improvement as opposed to a degradation. Getting slower really worries me.

Help please! Anyone else see similar result during their first 4 weeks?

---

Are you doing all of your runs on the treadmill? I'm sure you've
read the FAQ over and over again, so bear with me. I do want to
make sure you are getting in enough time in a downhill setting where
you are getting some time (I don't think it needs to be more than about
5-10% at the most) at a faster pace. We have had a couple of other
posters that said almost the same thing as you, practically to a T,
and they were all just flat (or worse, positively inclined) on the treadmill
for every run. Also, of course, I don't see your training log, but I see
no variety at all. No variation in distances, terrain, etc.
Everyone eventually will need to get some time on
the downhills or they will experience the "slow running" phenomenon -
run absolutely nothing but one pace and you will run nothing but one
pace. Most people don't really have to think about this because a
good percentage of their runs are on at least moderately hilly courses,
so there's an opportunity most every run to get some leg turnover.
If you've got a running log you can post, perhaps you address some
of the things I mention and we can dig in deeper.

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posted Feb-02-2007 07:39 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Groves:
I am trying this low heart rate run training and I am seeing progress. I was just wondering how long till it plateaus and how much improvement I can see before it plateaus in terms of minute per mile pace. I started this low heart rate thing with a 11:35 min mile at a heart rate of 160 now I am at 10:35 at 160.

---

It would be nice if there were a single answer! The only thing I can
tell you is that it will be different for everyone based on history, training,
age, fitness when starting, amount of mileage, etc. So, are you 20-25
years old (hence giving a MAF of 160)? If you are, then you really should
be prepared to iterate a bit on your target heart rate. People in their low
20s and late 50s frequently require some adaptation.

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posted Feb-03-2007 10:47 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Are you doing all of your runs on the treadmill? I'm sure you've
read the FAQ over and over again, so bear with me. I do want to
make sure you are getting in enough time in a downhill setting where
you are getting some time (I don't think it needs to be more than about
5-10% at the most) at a faster pace. We have had a couple of other
posters that said almost the same thing as you, practically to a T,
and they were all just flat (or worse, positively inclined) on the treadmill
for every run. Also, of course, I don't see your training log, but I see
no variety at all. No variation in distances, terrain, etc.
Everyone eventually will need to get some time on
the downhills or they will experience the "slow running" phenomenon -
run absolutely nothing but one pace and you will run nothing but one
pace. Most people don't really have to think about this because a
good percentage of their runs are on at least moderately hilly courses,
so there's an opportunity most every run to get some leg turnover.
If you've got a running log you can post, perhaps you address some
of the things I mention and we can dig in deeper.

---

Thanks for your reply. In my post I only referred to the runs where all things were held constant. On the weekends I always ran outside over varying terrain. Ususally Saturday was 1.5 - 2 hour run and then Sunday was a 1 - 1.5 hour run on hills so I could purposely run faster downhill. On the advice of one of the local coaches who's an exercise physiologist, I'm going to move to a more Hadd style and vary my workouts a little. He also thinks my target heartrate is a little low. He suggested running between 134 - 150 for recovery runs and 150 - 162 for longer, steady state runs. Still all in the aerobic zone according to many theories. It's just not Maffetone style. Any thoughts on this?

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posted Feb-03-2007 10:55 AM            

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posted Feb-03-2007 11:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Helgeson:
More data for what it's worth - sorry I should have included this in my last post. My max HR is 190, my resting is 50. My anaerobic threshold is 178 according to the Conconi test. I know the Conconi test is somewhat controversial but my pace at 178 also matches my 10K race pace, so there's at least another piece of data that supports this number.

---

10k pace should be above your anaerobic threshold by about 10 secs/mile. In any case, I'm sure Jesse will correct me if I'm wrong, that really isn't an important number for this method.

Southern Man

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posted Feb-04-2007 03:42 PM               

I will typically average 132 bpm on a 5 miler with a max HR of about 147-148. My HR typically will start touching the low-mid 140s during the running segments of miles 4 & 5 and then drop down into the mid-high 120's after walking for 1 minute. Is the average HR too low? To get the average up I would be exceeding MAF too often. If it is, I may have to ditch the run/walk idea, but, I'd rather not.

Any thoughts?

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posted Feb-04-2007 10:18 PM               

Unfortunately, I could have done even better if I could have held it together past mile 20.

The heart rate was great, right on target through 20. After the pain set in and I slowed down, the heart beat dropped 8-10 beats below target.

My target was 20 beats over maf for the whole race.

My calves and hamstrings got sore and I had to slow down.

Guessing I need more long runs over 20 next time. This time did 2 20's and one 23 miler.

Didn't hurt as bad in the race as I did on the training runs, but enough to slow me significantly.

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posted Feb-04-2007 10:37 PM            

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posted Feb-05-2007 09:13 AM            

I'm hoping the several 22 milers and a 23 miler will allow me to finish fairly strong...or least whatever you can call "strong" after that many miles.

We'll find out in 12 days.

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posted Feb-05-2007 10:51 AM            

I find after about the 15 mile mark my HR keeps climbing and climbing (endurance is an issue for me).

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posted Feb-05-2007 12:05 PM            

For what it may be worth I’d like to sharea few details from the weekend. Ran similar distances Sat. & Sun. (9.5 and 9.75).

Sunday AM
MAF = 135 (age based)
Temp 18F +/-, little wind
Resting HR slightly elevated before run @ 55 bpm? (+7 from average – no signs of cold or illness)
New route (side roads w/ mixed hill up & down).
Drank fluids during run
(Based on recorded splits, I question accuracy of mile markers)

Mile 1 10:59 144ave (142max) (uphill 1/2mile +100ft)
#2 10:02/137(ave) (143 max) (primarily down hill 70ft.)
#3 9:04/139 (148 max) (downhill 50ft ) (? distance for miles 3&4)
#4 12:53/137 (141max) (slight uphill)
#5 11:16/135 (141 max) (up hill)
#6 12:34/ 135 (142 max) (steep hill +60ft) (slow..)
#7 11:21/ 135 (144 max) (steep hill)
#8 10:52/ 136 (143 max) (mostly downhill – high HR??)
#9 11:57/ 137 (143 max) (relatively flat)
#9.7+/- 7:20/ 139(ave) (144 max) (uphill)
136 bpm (ave) 148(max)

Walked twice to control HR (steeper hills – about 10seconds). When trying to reduce HR, response seemed slow even at reduced pace.

Again, my general concern is that I am loosing ground with MAF progress. It seems like Im laboring to keep HR down and have not seen progress in a few months.

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posted Feb-05-2007 12:20 PM               

I'm not the leading expert here but there is one thing that jumps out at me. Your Maff target is 135, but it looks like you are very loose with that number. Have you ever spent an extended period of time where you never went above 135? Not sure if would help or not, but I noticed that your averages were almost all above the number you were supposed to stay under. I have no idea what your history is but would think that allowing your HR to drift that far on every run would slow progress. Just a thought, interested in what others think.

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posted Feb-05-2007 12:32 PM            

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posted Feb-05-2007 01:51 PM               

Here are my splits.

Lap
(#) Time
(m:s) Distance
(mi ) Max Spd
(mph), HR, max heart rate each mile
(bpm) Energy
(Cal)

1 9:43 1.00 7.4 132 148 154
2 9:27 1.00 7.2 144 155 145
3 9:06 1.00 7.8 149 157 148
4 9:34 1.00 8.9 148 156 152
5 9:39 1.00 6.9 152 158 157
6 9:32 1.00 7.4 154 159 146
7 9:44 1.00 6.9 157 165 154
8 9:56 1.00 7.2 157 161 148
9 9:52 1.00 7.6 157 162 149
10 10:10 1.00 7.2 158 161 163
11 10:11 1.00 6.7 159 161 155
12 10:12 1.00 6.7 159 162 152
13 10:25 1.00 6.7 160 163 151
14 10:48 1.00 6.9 158 162 160
15 10:52 1.00 6.5 159 164 154
16 11:16 1.00 6.0 158 162 169
17 11:18 1.00 6.0 161 165 173
18 11:25 1.00 6.0 161 166 159
19 11:06 1.00 6.9 161 166 152
20 11:34 1.00 6.3 160 168 121
21 15:11 1.00 6.0 152 162 103
22 14:10 1.00 6.0 149 155 121
23 12:49 1.00 5.8 150 159 129
24 13:07 1.00 5.8 151 161 140
25 13:17 1.00 5.8 150 156 169
26 13:27 1.00 5.8 151 156 146
27 8:15 0.53 6.7 154 169 96

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posted Feb-05-2007 04:43 PM            

Am coming back from a bout of "overtraining" and illness, which has caused me to 1. Abort running the Boston Marathon and 2. miss basically 23 days of running.

After getting the full medical workup, since "overtraining" make you think everything is wrong with you, I've got a clean bit of health. So I've decided that since Boston is out the way, I want to build up a good aerobic base if I somehow get into New York in the fall.

I'm 34 (will be 35 in April), so I'm assuming that my MAF would be 145. I had been running on average of 50+mpw before I stopped. I am going to gradually come back by running ~3.75 miles a day for 12 days, then jump up to about 6 miles a day for the next 11 days.

I would like to be up to around 80-90 mpw by the end of June. I will run races during this period, but plan on doing no speedwork, etc.

So, should I be doing MAF (180-Age) or about MAF+5 (150) after my 3 week comeback period?

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posted Feb-05-2007 05:45 PM               

In a true base building phase you do not want to race.

Do you know your actual max HR? Your 145-150 Maff projection might be right on. However, it could be too high. I'm 36yo and my training HR is 125. I realized that my true max was lower than the averages say so I had to adjust down substantially or the Maff formula would have had me working too hard. You can't go wrong with going lower (within reason).

Best of luck!

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posted Feb-05-2007 07:23 PM               

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posted Feb-05-2007 09:01 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Helgeson:
Thanks for your reply. In my post I only referred to the runs where all things were held constant. On the weekends I always ran outside over varying terrain. Ususally Saturday was 1.5 - 2 hour run and then Sunday was a 1 - 1.5 hour run on hills so I could purposely run faster downhill. On the advice of one of the local coaches who's an exercise physiologist, I'm going to move to a more Hadd style and vary my workouts a little. He also thinks my target heartrate is a little low. He suggested running between 134 - 150 for recovery runs and 150 - 162 for longer, steady state runs. Still all in the aerobic zone according to many theories. It's just not Maffetone style. Any thoughts on this?

---

Just keep in mind that Hadd recommends a basebuilding phase
pretty much like Maffetone's until the pace at low heart rates is
reasonably fast before moving into the higher zone. On your hilly
runs, are you saying that your heart rate is pretty steady whether
you are going up or down? Do you know what kind of downhill
paces you've been hitting? Do you have any sustained downhills
that last at least 1/4 - 1/2 mile? You'll be aerobic all the way up
to your anaerobic threshold, but too high in the aerobic regime
and you won't be developing your aerobic system. Good luck
using Hadd's approach - it's a good approach. I recommend you
read his writeup a few times and really try to absorb it before
really digging in. Personally, I don't believe that working higher
heart rates is very important for endurance events, but getting
enough fast turnover seems to be very important, at least for
many.

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posted Feb-05-2007 09:03 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Southern Man:
10k pace should be above your anaerobic threshold by about 10 secs/mile. In any case, I'm sure Jesse will correct me if I'm wrong, that really isn't an important number for this method.

---

I certainly agree. The AT will be somewhere between 10k and half
marathon (really, closer to half marathon) effort.

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