posted Jan-17-2007 11:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

It was in the January issue of Runners World, page 73:

"If you want to be a runner for life' says Allen "90% of your training should be in your aerobc zone, which is around 75% of your maximum heart rate. That's where you are going to simulate your systems, rather than wearing them down."

Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jimmy,
I find it interesting also. What is his reasoning for using 75% of MHR over MAF? I do not even want to venture a guess. Hopefully someone can provide insight for the switch.
kcy

---

I'll take an uneducated guess that the 155 bpm he used as a ceiling was about 75% of his MHR, and maybe he stuck with the 75% MHR instead of lowering his MAF every year. And he continued to improve. Or maybe Maffetone insulted Mark Allen's wife's thighs (chicken, not her legs) at dinner one night, and now no free advertising for Phil.

I think that it is not the MAF formula but a % of MHR or HRR or some kind of threshold that is the more accurate way of judging where you should be training. The MAF formula gets a majority of runners into that meaty aerobic target zone, but leaving some in zones that don't really work. My MAF ceiling was about 72% MHR, I found that adding some miles in up to 75% didn't hurt, seem to speed me up a bit. Also found that going down to 65% MHR didn't hurt either (I combined that zone with big volume).

My 75% MHR is almost equivalent to my 70%HRR (Parker).

I don't have a 76% MHR. I lost it in Cape Cod.

SO, perhaps, a good rule of thumb for those of you who are trying the MAF formula, but see no progress, use 75% MHR as a ceiling, starting your runs around 65-70%, finishing at 75%. That might work. Mark Allen says it does. Mark is alpha, baby.

--Jimmy

Daily Jogging Miles
ID

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Jan-17-2007).]

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posted Jan-18-2007 09:53 AM            

Of course, if you take away the maff formula from maff then what's left? Basically, it's the prescription to do a period of base training with no speedwork and use a HRM to ensure you're going slow enough. The latter is the distinction I think. Using short race results to get a training pace doesn't work when your marathon doesn't match your 5K.

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posted Jan-23-2007 12:10 PM            

I am training for Boston and have been planning on a 12 week base building phase using Maffetone after Boston. I have used Pfitz 70 mpw schedules for my last 3 marathons resulting in times in the 3:15-3:20 range, pretty much following them to the letter, but have somewhat stalled out after upping the intensity of tempo runs and the speed of my general aerobic runs.

Anyway, I am convinced that a more solid aerobic base will do me well. My question basically is would you start something like this with 12 weeks until Boston? Would it sacrifice the "speed" that I have now or would it benefit me to put in 70 mile weeks under MAF?

Should I try this or continue w/ Pfitz until after Boston?

------------------
Tom

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posted Jan-23-2007 01:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyL:
Jesse, Jimmy, Cash, anyone,

I am training for Boston and have been planning on a 12 week base building phase using Maffetone after Boston. I have used Pfitz 70 mpw schedules for my last 3 marathons resulting in times in the 3:15-3:20 range, pretty much following them to the letter, but have somewhat stalled out after upping the intensity of tempo runs and the speed of my general aerobic runs.

Anyway, I am convinced that a more solid aerobic base will do me well. My question basically is would you start something like this with 12 weeks until Boston? Would it sacrifice the "speed" that I have now or would it benefit me to put in 70 mile weeks under MAF?

Should I try this or continue w/ Pfitz until after Boston?

---

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posted Jan-23-2007 02:31 PM            

There is a local sports Dr. however ... who's a triathlete as well ... that does lactate threshold testing (bike or treadmill) for $70. I'm not even sure of the zone calculations once I have this data, but will this test tell me everything I need to know for now?

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posted Jan-23-2007 02:45 PM               

I would say that the system you've used for a long time is fairly predictable, meaning you will probably come in at 3:15-3:20 for this marathon as well. Boston is usually not a PR course, so you probably will not run a blistering time either way.

However, I'm not convinced that you can't run the same time WITH the 12-week basebuilding before the race. You probably wouldn't be able to run as fast a 5K after 12 weeks, but that's not what we care about right now. Your marathon "speed" will not go anywhere. Most of my training is at about 9:00/mile and I can go out and run sub-7 pace any time I want. The goal is to get to the point where I can do it for 26 miles. The leg speed necessary for a marathon is always with you. The key is conditioning your body to optimize that speed for 26 miles, and basebuilding is a big part of that. Some increasingly higher intensity aerobic runs each week can help in this situation in my opinion. A true basebuilding phase would not incorporate these but being so close to a goal race you may want to keep some of this. If you decide to basebuild pre-Boston read my blog, maybe you'll get some ideas to incorporate into your plan.

You'll get several opinions here, take whatever you feel works best for you and good luck!

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posted Jan-23-2007 06:24 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyL:
Jesse, Jimmy, Cash, anyone,

I am training for Boston and have been planning on a 12 week base building phase using Maffetone after Boston. I have used Pfitz 70 mpw schedules for my last 3 marathons resulting in times in the 3:15-3:20 range, pretty much following them to the letter, but have somewhat stalled out after upping the intensity of tempo runs and the speed of my general aerobic runs.

Anyway, I am convinced that a more solid aerobic base will do me well. My question basically is would you start something like this with 12 weeks until Boston? Would it sacrifice the "speed" that I have now or would it benefit me to put in 70 mile weeks under MAF?

Should I try this or continue w/ Pfitz until after Boston?

---

I actually agree with all of the responses so far. It is a crapshoot
as to what you'll do by just slowing down for the next 12 weeks until
Boston. Looking at your shorter distance times, I have little doubt
that you should be hitting about 3 hrs or so for marathons and
with a good base. However, you just never know what will transpire
over the 12 week period. I would suspect that you may just see
some nice results come race time, but if you don't then you're
bound to be very soured on the approach and the would be
unfortunate. It all depends on how important is for you to really
hit a PR at Boston.

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posted Jan-24-2007 07:21 AM            

I ask the question as Jimmy commented how the MAF formula gets most people, however some may need to be raised or lowered to get in the ideal aerobic target zone. Im interested in comparing my calculated MAF value to actual % of MHR or HRR. Hopefully its somewhere around 75%.

At times others reference books by Parker, J Daniels or others. Are these books worth read or do their recommeded training programs contradict the Maffetone approach?

Lastly, I continue to follow a training program which simply logs all training miles @ strictly MAF HR with a long-term thought of introducing a little speedwork in the spring. When I see a hill I focus on fast turn over and holding MAF HR. Do others support this basic approach?

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posted Jan-24-2007 07:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyL:
Jesse, Jimmy, Cash, anyone,

Anyway, I am convinced that a more solid aerobic base will do me well. My question basically is would you start something like this with 12 weeks until Boston? Would it sacrifice the "speed" that I have now or would it benefit me to put in 70 mile weeks under MAF?

Should I try this or continue w/ Pfitz until after Boston?

---

Congrats on your great marathon times thus far. Based on your 10k PR, the McMillan calculator gives you a possible 3:10 for a marathon. You are about 5-10 minutes off that mark. Have you been slowing at the last 5 miles of the marathon? How have your half splits been?

The question you ask is in the realm of the experimental spirit.
The only risk you run is losing some speed, but at the same time, you'll be able to hold your speed much longer with some good aerobic work.
You might try it for 6 weeks, and see if your training paces drop in that time. If your using the Pfitzinger-style progression long runs, keep doing them during this period. If your paces drop, then stick with the MAF for 90% of your miles for the final 6 weeks, but add in the LT runs or intervals.

That all being said, you might be thinking of Boston as a visit to a "major", and might not want to mess with what you've been doing thus far with Pfitzinger.

Whatever you choose, it won't be a wrong decision, as there will be more Boston's for you for sure, and your choice will be a learning experience.

Little tip about Boston--don't get sucked into running those first downhill 5-6 miles too fast, you'll pay for it big time in the end if you do.

Good luck.

--Jimmy

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posted Jan-24-2007 10:11 AM            

Hello folks. I've posted here occasionally, but have been busy focusing on my upcoming (first) marathon on 2/17 at Myrtle Beach. I still keep up with the thread, of course.

I'm posting my 12 mile run from this morning, and my predicted marathon time based on my only half marathon in November. I'm curious for thoughts on what fellow Maffers have experienced regarding their MAF pace versus MP under similar conditions.

My half marathon on 11/4 was 1:44:03. (7:57 pace) My last 3 miles I averaged a ~7:30 pace, and that included a +100 elevation change, so I believe I had a bit faster time in me. Nonetheless, I surpassed all expectations that day.

I haven't raced since then, and have been running ~95% of my miles at MAF (145 for me) or below. Quite a few (50%) I run at MAF -15 to -20 with my wife.

Age: 35 MHR: 200

So, based on my HM time, I'm predicted (McMillan) for a ~3:39 marathon, which is a pace of 8:23. I've probably lost 5 pounds since the HM as well, for what it's worth.

I ran 201 miles in December with long runs of 20, 20, and 21.5. January is shaping up for 240+ miles with long runs of 21.5, 22, and 23. I ran my 22 miler with the last 7 at marathon pace. (8:18) That has been my speed work in the last few months, and I will do the same for my 23 miler this weekend. I might throw in a few more HM pace (7:40 ish) miles, but not much else during taper.

Anyway, sorry for the details, but I guess it's better than too little information.

Here are my splits for my 12 miler today, including elevation change and Average HR. The temp was 30F at start, and maybe 33 when finished. I expect (hope) the marathon to be a tad warmer, but not drastically so.

MILE PACE Avg.HR % of MHR Elev. Change

1 9:26 128 65% -98
2 9:27 138 69% +62
3 9:11 140 70% -32
4 9:07 142 71% +16
5 9:16 141 71% -5
6 9:27 140 70% +28
7 9:00 142 71% -9
8 9:04 143 72% +9
9 9:20 142 71% -22
10 9:14 145 73% +22
11 9:07 143 72% -39
12 9:49 146 73% +85

Miles 7 and 8 were the flattest. I did a 1.5 mile loop twice in there also that has one good size hill with a few rolling downhills.

Mile 1 is mostly downhill, and mile 12 was coming back, so it is almost entirely uphill with some flat areas mixed in.

My main question is this for those of you with a few marathons under your belt. What is/was your marathon pace in relation to, say, 8 to 10 miles of MAF or below?

So, for me, I averaged a 9:17 pace today at -4 MAF (141) for 12 miles, which is 54 seconds per mile off of MP. I don't have a VO2 max test done, but based on what I've read (87% of MHR), my AT is probably ~175.

I'm pretty confident that a sub 3:39 is in me, but it is my first marathon, so who knows. For my long runs I've been using at most 1 GU and some gatorade. The rest is water. I've done several 20+ with just water and some gatorade and have never bonked. I sure was hungry though.

Thanks!

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posted Jan-24-2007 10:16 AM            

To answer some questions I am not trying to PR at Boston. That being said if the conditions were perfect I would give it a shot. I'm more interested in running a nice even race with no death march. As you may have guessed my split times have been 1:35/1:40, 1:35/1:43 etc. with some final miles 8:45-9:00 or worse.

Here's the approach I am considering. Running 70-75 mpw below MAF(180-38+5=147). Every other week doing a LT run of 4-6 mi. peaking at 3.5 weeks out doing a 6-7 mi. tempo at approx. 6:40-6:45. My rationale is that I can do that right now and it will give me the confidence that I really haven't lost anything. I hope that one tempo run every other week will not wreck the aerobic benefit. I am also going to take the leap of faith that my VO2 max will increase and not do nearly as many VO2 max intervals as I usually do with Pfitzinger. Just enough towards the end for confidence. I will also continue to lift upper body 1-2 times a week. I really can't give that up.

Jesse, even if it doesn't go as planned with ths experiment, I also have a science background and am smart enough to know that there are many variables that go into this and won't automatically sour on the approach.

Aharmer, I have read your blog and like the approach. After I see how this goes for a few weeks maybe I'll consider gradually increasing the intensity as you are.

Just another experiment of one.

I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks again.

------------------
Tom

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posted Jan-24-2007 10:27 AM               

Looks like you're ready to rip! I would think you should expect to avg about 175 for the marathon distance. Do you have HR data for those final 8 miles that you did at MP? The questions I would ask are:

What was avg HR for those 8 miles?
Was the HR fairly steady or did it climb throughout (ranges?)
Was it a pace that you could have continues for several more miles? I know at the end of a 22 miler that might not be reasonable, but was the effort one you could continue on its own for several additional miles?

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posted Jan-24-2007 01:32 PM            

I believe your 170 number is about where I will end up if all goes well.

Miles 12 through 15 that day were at ~149 AHR with a pace of 9:35 or so.

Miles 16 through 23 I went from 160 to 172. I did stop and refuel (probably 2 to 3 minutes).

AHR was 160, 166, 166, 169, 174 (uphill a bit), 171, and 172. My last 3 miles were 8:15, 8:05, and 8:06.

Yes, I could have run a few more miles. It wouldn't have been fun (my feet were more sore than my legs, which I can deal with) but I could have done it.

So I sped up from 8:24 to 8:05 at the end...after 3.5 hours I was ready to get into my ice bath.

Oh, and that day it was about 70F when I ended..high 60's for sure, so it was a good test for me if it should happen to be that warm next month. It's unlikely but possible given this whacky winter. The race starts at 6:30 a.m. as well, so hopefully I'll be done around 10.

For the half marathon I ran I was at 170 AHR, but I really believe I should have been running 5 to 10 seconds faster per mile...I just had no idea given that was my first half.

I'll try to post this weekends 23 miler. I'm planning to run 8 with my wife (maf -15 to 20) and then 8 at roughly 9:30 pace which will be ~MAF, and then the last 8 at 8:15 or better. Yes, it's a bit faster than 8:23, but it's also my speed work. *hehe*

It's my last long run before my taper begins, and I will still be running a lot of easy miles with my wife, so I don't believe it's too much to ask. I recover much better from my 21+ runs now than I did my 16 milers a few months ago, so that's encouraging.

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posted Jan-24-2007 06:37 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:

I'm curious for thoughts on what fellow Maffers have experienced regarding their MAF pace versus MP under similar conditions.

My main question is this for those of you with a few marathons under your belt. What is/was your marathon pace in relation to, say, 8 to 10 miles of MAF or below?

> snip <

So, for me, I averaged a 9:17 pace today at -4 MAF (141) for 12 miles, which is 54 seconds per mile off of MP. I don't have a VO2 max test done, but based on what I've read (87% of MHR), my AT is probably ~175.

---

Ok, just responding to these two Q's ... First, I wouldn't use
a % of HRmax for anaerobic threshold. Most people with high
max heart rates (e.g., a good deal higher than 220-age) do
not necesarily have high ATs. Also, AT has somewhat significant
dependence on fitness, HRmax does not. As a side note, my
AT is 84% of my HR max, for what it's worth. Nonetheless, it's
not terribly important unless you plan to use that approximation
in a race!

Ok, now it's probably a fair time to repost a summary I posted in
one of the previous instantations of this thread. It shows my
recent training paces near MAF and subsequent marathon pace/
HR splits. (Of course, you can pull this from my running log,
but then you'd have to dig through and ferret it all out!)
Here goes (sorry if the formatting gets a bit messed
up in the paste):
------------------------------------
Ok, given that there have been a lot of questions about
training pace, training heart rate, race pace, race heart rate,
I thought I'd compile some of my own data for my last several
marathons along with the training paces leading up, so that
people don't have to dig through my training log to put all
the pieces together. So here's
what you'll see (in my usual format of mile split/avg HR over
split):
marathon 1, date, splits, temperature
most recent long run splits and temp
most recent treadmill run splits

marathon 2, ...
...
(I'll defy what I just said and do the tahoe triple all at
once and post the training splits after all day 3)

---------------------------------
tahoe triple day 1, 10/6/05, 27 deg (alt 6400-7200 ft)
8:16/144, 8:08/155, 8:03/155, 8:00/157, 9:11/156,
8:54/156, 9:15/156, 9:03/156, 9:12/156, 9:15/155,
9:12/154, 9:24/156, 9:28/158, 9:37/161, 9:19/163,
9:05/165, 9:23/165, 9:24/162, 9:37/167, 8:30/167,
9:31/172, 8:46/171, 9:04/171, 10:10/172,11:56/172,
12:14/172, 1:02/170
avg HR 162, max 174, time 4:03:12
(last 4 miles were a 1000 ft unrelenting climb)

tahoe triple day 2, 10/7/05, 35 deg (alt 6400-7000 ft)
8:22/143, 8:19/150, 9:23/156, 8:05/154, 7:47/153,
9:08/156, 7:42/154, 8:54/155, 8:47/155, 8:53/156,
11:21/148 (stopped for construction for about 4 minutes),
8:45/156, 9:14/157, 9:07/159, 10:25/161, 8:58/157,
8:33/160, 9:10/164, 9:23/161, 9:40/162, 9:13/163,
9:11/166, 9:28/164, 10:03/169, 8:57/162, 9:31/165,
1:37(9:16/mi)/165
avg HR 158, max 174, time 3:58:10

tahoe triple day 3, 10/8/05, 45 deg (alt 6400-7200 ft)
9:04/150, 8:47/157, 8:20/157, 8:38/158, 8:48/159,
8:57/158, 8:52/156, 8:41/158, 9:00/157, 8:37/157,
9:10/156, 9:01/157, 9:00/158, 9:13/158, 8:06/158,
11:12/160, 11:57/162, 9:48/157, 8:33/152, 11:09/160 (steep up!),
8:03/156, 8:25/160, 8:15/162, 8:56/164, 10:04/160,
10:28/156, 4:03(8:45/mi)/161
avg HR 158, max 170, time 4:03:21

recent treadmill run, 10/3/05
9:11/133, 9:06/138, 8:57/139, 8:57/139, 8:58/140
avg HR 138, max 142

recent long training run, 9/23/05, temp 85 at end
8:55/132, 10:33/141, 9:29/141, 9:24/142, 9:43/143,
9:56/142, 9:55/143, 9:36/145, 10:26/149, 10:52/146,
10:40/150, 10:39/152, 10:41/143, 10:10/149, 11:42/149,
11:19/140, 11:19/140, 13:53/138, 12:06/XX, 11:56/xx
1:21/XX (HR monitor crapped out at end)
avg HR 147, max 172 (didn't worry about it going high
since race day was coming up)

-----------------------------------------------------

NCR trail marathon, 11/26/05, 28 deg (one week after 50 mile race)
7:04/164, 7:24/163, 7:52/161, 7:46/162, 7:44/163,
7:42/163, 7:29/163, 7:47/163, 7:38/163, 7:46/164,
7:42/163, 7:49/165, 7:52/166, 7:35/167, 7:11/168,
7:25/169, 7:24/170, 7:46/169, 7:46/169, 7:47/169,
8:02/170, 8:14/167, 8:00/167, 8:39/165, 8:34/167,
7:47/171, 2:34(7:52/mi)/178
avg HR 166, max 179, time 3:24:30

recent treadmill run, 11/25
7:52/141, 7:52/145, 8:15/143, 8:17/143, 8:18/144
avg HR 143, max 147

recent long run (before 50 mile race previous week), 11/12, 30 deg,
8:41/131, 9:16/141, 8:43/140, 8:31/141, 9:08/141,
9:33/XX, 8:04/140, 8:51/142, 8:29/141, 8:51/141,
8:36/141, 8:19/142, 9:15/143, 9:09/143, 8:15/146,
8:39/146, 8:41/151, 8:19/148, 9:23/148, 9:02/149,
3:11(8:42/mi)/154
avg HR 143, max 158

------------------------------------------------------

Greenbelt GW Birthday marathon, 2/19/06, 20 deg
7:26/155, 7:16/159, 7:36/165, 7:42/165, 7:36/164,
8:02/164, 7:22/165, 7:56/164, 8:02/165, 7:46/163,
7:48/163, 8:18/164, 8:13/164, 8:07/164, 8:17/163,
8:30/165, 8:31/164, 8:23/162, 8:18/166, 8:25/166,
8:06/169, 8:12/170, 8:17/170, 8:57/168, 8:35/166,
9:14/169, 3:25(7:13/mi)/172
avg HR 165, max 173, time 3:34:43

recent treadmill run, 2/13
8:56/126, 8:01/138, 7:55/143, 8:29/142, 8:35/141,
8:21/142, 7:55/144, 1:54/145
avg HR 139, max 146

recent long run, 2/11, 32 (snow)
9:35/135, 10:45/140, 9:42/141, 9:25/142, 10:03/141,
10:29/141, 8:58/141, 10:01/141, 9:19/141, 9:46/141,
9:44/141, 9:30/141, 10:24/142, 10:10/143, 9:20/145,
10:22/143, 10:23/143, 10:01/142, 10:58/143, 10:28/145,
3:21/145
avg HR 141, max 154

--------------------------------------------------------------------

B&A Trail marathon, 3/5/06, 25 deg
7:27/151, 7:17/164, 7:34/166, 7:18/166, 7:25/166,
7:10/165, 7:05/166, 7:36/168, 7:31/166, 7:28/166,
7:14/167, 7:24/167, 7:29/169, 7:27/171, 7:38/173,
7:46/171, 7:33/175, 7:46/173, 7:44/173, 7:46/168,
7:43/173, 8:01/173, 8:02/172, 8:00/173, 7:59/171,
7:55/176, 2:17(7:52/mi)/180
avg HR 169, max 184, time 3:19:49

recent treadmill run, 3/3/06
8:56/136, 8:32/143, 8:10/142, 8:20/143, 8:20/143,
8:16/144, 8:14/145, 1:12/144
avg HR 142, max 146

recent long run (day before marathon, 3/4/06), 25 deg
10:27/123, 10:26/129, 10:19/133, 9:49/133, 9:17/134,
9:59/135, 9:40/136, 9:43/136, 9:35/135, 10:06/135,
9:51/134, 10:09/135, 10:44/135, 10:19/135, 9:04/136,
10:05/140, 10:48/139, 9:48/137, 10:46/139, 10:44/139,
4:02/142
avg HR 135, max 148

------------------------------------------------------

Lower potomac marathon, 3/12/06, *82 deg*
7:02/151, 7:05/163, 7:11/164, 7:06/166, 7:16/165,
7:19/166, 7:14/165, 7:22/165, 7:23/165, 7:19/165,
7:23/166, 7:32/166, 7:30/166, 7:34/167, 7:42/168,
7:52/170, 8:21/169, 8:17/168, 8:13/169, 8:44/172,
8:46/170, 8:35/163(may have been low readings for
a few minutes), 9:01/168, 9:03/168, 9:05/171,
9:10/171, 3:57(8:19/mi)/167
avg HR 168, max 180, time 3:29:15

recent treadmill run, 3/6/06 (day after B&A marathon)
9:20/124, 8:27/136, 8:20/139, 8:20/141, 8:20/142,
8:21/143, 8:19/142, 0:35/141
avg HR 138, max 144

recent long run, 3/11/06 (day before marathon), 65 deg
9:31/137, 10:30/142, 9:41/141, 9:25/141, 9:50/142,
10:23/142, 9:25/139, 10:04/140, 9:25/146, 9:54/141,
9:43/141, 9:46/145, 10:34/142, 10:05/148, 9:33/143,
9:56/145, 9:55/147, 10:07/144, 11:04/145, 2:48/146
avg HR 142, max 153

---------------------------------------------------------------

Frederick Marathon, 4/30/06, 60 deg
6:41/154, 6:53/163, 6:55/164, 6:52/165, 6:59/167,
6:54/167, 7:16/168, 7:03/168, 7:26/167, 7:08/167,
7:07/167, 7:19/168, 7:10/168, 7:10/170, 7:16/169,
7:17/171, 7:23/170, 7:25/173, 7:26/170, 7:30/173,
7:25/175, 7:30/176, 7:23/176, 7:29/177, 7:51/178,
8:06/180, 3:38(7:31/mile)/178
avg HR 170, max 184, time 3:12:47 (ran off course, too!)

recent treadmill run, 4/24/06
8:30/125, 7:33/139, 7:50/141, 7:59/139, 8:10/141,
8:04/140, 8:15/141, 3:37/145
avg HR 138, max 143

recent long run, 4/23/06, GPS out, 19.3 miles, avg pace 9:37,
avg HR 137, max 152, temp 68

---------------------------------------------------------------

grandma's marathon, 6/17/06, 78 deg, 90% humidity
6:59/155, 6:56/164, 6:58/163, 7:12/164, 7:08/164,
7:14/165, 7:29/164, 7:32/164, 7:29/164, 7:07/163,
7:38/163, 7:31/162, 7:22/165, 7:29/166, 7:46/164,
7:39/166, 7:51/168, 7:48/169, 7:31/169, 7:46/171,
7:47/172, 8:06/169, 8:04/172, 7:48/175, 7:02/179,
7:06/185, 3:05/184(7:27/mi)
avg HR 168, max 185, time 3:17:35

recent treadmill run, 6/11/06 (day after half ironman)
8:30/128, 7:56/139, 8:28/140, 8:34/141, 8:34/142,
8:34/141, 8:34/141, 0:48/141
avg HR 139, max 143

recent long run, 6/3/06, 75 deg
9:08/139, 9:56/143, 9:15/142, 8:54/143, 9:28/145,
9:58/144, 8:32/143, 9:23/143, 9:11/142, 9:20/142,
9:33/142, 9:24/144, 10:12/145, 10:13/145, 9:35/145,
9:41/147, 9:59/149, 10:10/146, 10:07/144, 11:02/145,
5:38/147
avg HR 144, max 154
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posted Jan-25-2007 09:59 AM            

I'm curious about this particular log since the weather was identical, etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

B&A Trail marathon, 3/5/06, 25 deg
7:27/151, 7:17/164, 7:34/166, 7:18/166, 7:25/166,
7:10/165, 7:05/166, 7:36/168, 7:31/166, 7:28/166,
7:14/167, 7:24/167, 7:29/169, 7:27/171, 7:38/173,
7:46/171, 7:33/175, 7:46/173, 7:44/173, 7:46/168,
7:43/173, 8:01/173, 8:02/172, 8:00/173, 7:59/171,
7:55/176, 2:17(7:52/mi)/180
avg HR 169, max 184, time 3:19:49

recent treadmill run, 3/3/06
8:56/136, 8:32/143, 8:10/142, 8:20/143, 8:20/143,
8:16/144, 8:14/145, 1:12/144
avg HR 142, max 146

recent long run (day before marathon, 3/4/06), 25 deg
10:27/123, 10:26/129, 10:19/133, 9:49/133, 9:17/134,
9:59/135, 9:40/136, 9:43/136, 9:35/135, 10:06/135,
9:51/134, 10:09/135, 10:44/135, 10:19/135, 9:04/136,
10:05/140, 10:48/139, 9:48/137, 10:46/139, 10:44/139,
4:02/142
avg HR 135, max 148

------------------------------------------------------

I know I definitely don't have the endurance you have (obviously) nor the speed. Just over 6 months ago I was still smoking some and was a good 25 pounds heavier. So, I'm really just getting to the point where I feel like a runner to be honest. I'm sure my lungs are still repairing the damage done from 15 years of off and on smoking. *sigh*

Your numbers (and age) are fairly close to mine, though. It's encouraging, if nothing else.

Perhaps I'll post my recent training logs and my marathon numbers next month. I know some of us get into the numbers, and of course the impending discussion about those numbers.

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posted Jan-25-2007 06:49 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:
Thanks Jesse! yes, I knew going through your logs would be cumbersome, but I would have plowed through them this weekend most likely.

I'm curious about this particular log since the weather was identical, etc.

---

I wouldn't say anything is obvious! That was my first marathon
breaking 3:20 and I was actually targeting 3:30. In fact, I ran a
20 miler the day before because I had planned to make that race
part of a back to back long run in preparation for a 50 mile race
I was doing. It was another race where I was surprised as to how
well I could do. In fact, I slowed down a lot at the end because I
was so much ahead of my goal (and I didn't think I was ready for
3:15 yet).

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posted Jan-28-2007 03:35 PM               

Experimental tidbit of the day.

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posted Jan-29-2007 05:25 PM            

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posted Jan-30-2007 09:47 PM            

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***********
My myspace
My User Profile
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...

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posted Jan-31-2007 10:04 AM               

My 6 mile run last night (141 avg HR 146 max HR):
11:27
11:36
11:33
11:31
11:30
11:22

If nothing else I have been able to speed up considerably at this low HR even with only running 69 miles in a 23 day period and I am starting to actually look forward to running instead of dreading it. I am anxious to see where I am at in another couple of months. I am going to continue this through April.

*edited to state that the next 23 days I will run considerably more than 69 miles.

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[This message has been edited by SysTemP (edited Jan-31-2007).]

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posted Jan-31-2007 10:30 AM            

First question, does a 30 minute run at or below MAF provide any real benefit or should I be doing at least an hour? Obviously an hour every time would be best, but I can't always fit an hour in.

Is there a minimum number of hours(or miles) per week to recognize the benefits? Again obviously more is better, but do I need a low end target.

My current plan is
M-Rest
Tu - 45 min
W - 1 hr minimum
Th - 45 min
F - Rest
Sa - 45 min
Su - 1.5 hr
Allowing for flexible weekend and running 'long run' on either day.

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posted Jan-31-2007 05:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by notquitethere:

First question, does a 30 minute run at or below MAF provide any real benefit or should I be doing at least an hour? Obviously an hour every time would be best, but I can't always fit an hour in.

Is there a minimum number of hours(or miles) per week to recognize the benefits? Again obviously more is better, but do I need a low end target.

My current plan is
M-Rest
Tu - 45 min
W - 1 hr minimum
Th - 45 min
F - Rest
Sa - 45 min
Su - 1.5 hr
Allowing for flexible weekend and running 'long run' on either day.

---

I'll let the gurus answer your question re MAF training, but here are two observations based on personal experience.

The time when you're 30-45 minutes into the run seem to be a time of transition for the body's systems. I discovered that when I ran 30 minutes or less, especially if I ran it harder, that I would be hungry at breakfast. If I ran longer than 35-40 minutes I would not be hungry at breakfast, and not so much at lunch either. The longer I ran, the longer it would take me to get hungry. Someone from our local medical school/hospital explained this to me once in terms of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. A running guru told me that's the time when the body seriously switches over to a predominantly fat-burning mode. Whatever. I've shared this with other folks and they often report the same thing.

It's interesting that you can only fit in ca. 5 hours running per week. My method was to get up at 4:30 - 5:00 AM and hit the road. Plenty of time to run for 1 - 2 hours (or more), shower, breakfast, and go to work. Usually worked at least 55-65 hrs/wk, "crunch time" we worked longer. A long run on one of the weekend days.
You might consider 2 mid-week runs (Tues, Thurs) combined with a weekend long run of your choice. You could use MWF for "easy" or "recovery" run days or even rest if you need it. What worked for me was at least 2 hrs Tu/Thur and at least 3 hrs on one of the weekend days.

FWIW ( $.02 ? )

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posted Jan-31-2007 06:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by willamona:
Jesse, I spend a lot of time in the newbie fourm with the running moms now. I talk about MAFing. They ocassionally ask. I have attached your FAQ to my sig. If it is ok with you, I would like to leave it there. If it is not ok, just say the word. I will get rid of it as quick as the fat kid gets rid of a bag of chips. (I am not hatin' I am just demonstratin')

---

No problem with me. It can be pulled up with a google search
anyway, so there's no keeping it secret!

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posted Jan-31-2007 08:41 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by notquitethere:

Is there a minimum number of hours(or miles) per week to recognize the benefits? Again obviously more is better, but do I need a low end target.

---

I don't think there's a straightforward answer, but I do believe,
as slowgino said, that really the benefits really come from
spending more time running. I think you'd be hard pressed
to find a number that you could really call a minimum. I do
believe that the more mileage you do, in particular with longer
runs at a sitting, the more progress you'll see.

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posted Feb-01-2007 10:36 AM            

Im trying to break through what appears to be a stagnant period in MAF development and am forcing myself to NEVER go above target MAF (135bpm). If I see the HR monitor rise to 140-142, I first try to reduce the HR by slowing down for a few seconds (althrough Im already slow averaging around 10:50 per mile). If there is no immediate change I stop running and walk for 5 seconds until the montior responds.

It seems like my training may be slipping backwards as I have not taken brief walking breaks for some time. Otherwise, I question if I had become accustom to cheating a little and overlooked the need to always stay below MAF.

Has anyone experienced this situation as they try to re-focus MAF training goals.

Similarly, my average training pace seems to have slowed about 30sec per mile (currently 10:45 pace +/-)

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