posted Jan-07-2007 10:48 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by crb81:
The 305 blows away my last GPS device (which was the
garmin 201) and the HR monitor is basically the same,
although now all of the splits, averages, and HR profiles
are automagic. The GPS works on heavily tree-covered
trails and on all the other places where my other one
didn't work. I'm having too much fun with it!

Garmin 305 rocks. I can't imagine life without it. I'm getting ready to run my first marathon next week at Houston. I spent Feb-Mar at strict MAF and June-July at strict MAF. Since then I have done a modified Hadd and this past 12 weeks have stayed pretty much at MAF except for my LR's. I run my LR's with friends at MP pace +30 to 60 sec. I will let you know how it goes and plan on doing another MAF round afterwards. FYI, my MAF has dropped from 12:30 last Feb to 9:30-10:00 now.

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CLAY,

I found your post interesting. Mostly the part where you mention running your LR "at MP +30 to 60 sec." So, if you wanted to run a marathon with a pace of say a 9 min. mile, you ran your LR at maybe 8:30 or even lower, right????

I was always under the imperssion that your long runs were suppose to be up to a min. under your MP.....if you are not following the Maffetone Method that is.

Are your LR's something that the Hadd Method suggests? I ask because I know nothing of the Hadd Running Plan. If you can give me a short version of how it compares or doesn't to Maffetone, I'd be appreciative. OR...a website so I can read about Hadd.

I'm also wondering if running LR's that much faster can set you up for injuries since your body isn't used to that faster pace for LR's. Don't know, just throwing that idea out there.

Thanks for your insight.
Kris

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posted Jan-07-2007 10:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
To add to Jesse's "quite a bit." My experience last year (taking 2 weeks off at the end of 2005) I lost a ton of fitness in a few weeks. Today, I came off a down period of about 7 weeks, only running 25 miles total, with about 5-6 short stationary bike workouts. My loss of fitness was not as bad as last year. This might be due to a few factors: the high volume base period I did in the fall, walking 6-10 miles a day average in Italy, and the minimal workouts I did.

Her's a brief comparison:

todays run:...bike trail..7 miles..9:35 pace...154 bpm in the last mile
Nov. 10th:....bike trail...7 mile...9:30 pace...141 bpm in the last mile.

Definitely a loss, but not too bad for 7 weeks.

--Jimmy

make my story the center of your universe for a brief moment

---

Hello, Jimmy!

Looks like we're both up late! I can't sleep, and you are even an hour ahead of me!!!

I don't think you lost that much! I'm envious, but I deserve to be kicked in the butt!!! I think you were in exceptional shape before Italy, and that's why you didn't lose that much even with the few weeks of being off-n-on.

By the way, congrats on the Phila. Marathon!!! I would someday like to run that one!!! I'm from Pa., grew up in Collegeville, Pa. and alway went to Phila. for tons of events! So, I just have to run that one!!!!

I need to take time to read your report on that marathon and get the low down!!

Anyway....
Talk to you later, Kris!

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posted Jan-07-2007 11:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:
Hello, Jimmy!

Looks like we're both up late! I can't sleep, and you are even an hour ahead of me!!!

I don't think you lost that much! I'm envious, but I deserve to be kicked in the butt!!! I think you were in exceptional shape before Italy, and that's why you didn't lose that much even with the few weeks of being off-n-on.

By the way, congrats on the Phila. Marathon!!! I would someday like to run that one!!! I'm from Pa., grew up in Collegeville, Pa. and alway went to Phila. for tons of events! So, I just have to run that one!!!!

I need to take time to read your report on that marathon and get the low down!!

Anyway....
Talk to you later, Kris!

---

Philly Marathon race directors bit off more than they could masticate when they added the half marathon this year. The expo was HELL. The bag drop-off was HELL. The start was rough. The host hotel was HELL. Yet the course was still HELLO! Love the course.

Keep at it, Kris. Stay healthy. Have a great 2007.

--Jimmy

2007 allenamento
resistenza

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posted Jan-08-2007 07:36 AM               

I was always under the imperssion that your long runs were suppose to be up to a min. under your MP.....if you are not following the Maffetone Method that is.

Are your LR's something that the Hadd Method suggests? I ask because I know nothing of the Hadd Running Plan. If you can give me a short version of how it compares or doesn't to Maffetone, I'd be appreciative. OR...a website so I can read about Hadd.

I'm also wondering if running LR's that much faster can set you up for injuries since your body isn't used to that faster pace for LR's. Don't know, just throwing that idea out there.

Thanks for your insight

Boston124,
There is a link to Hadd in Jesse's FAQ. I did this in Aug-Oct in preparation for my HM. What I took from Hadd was a gradual increase in HR on my wednesday 8-10 milers. My MAF is 138. On Wednesday I would use 147 for several weeks. I gradually increased these runs to a max Hr of 170. All other runs were kept at MAF. After the HM I jumped into Higdon's intermediate II program at week six. I continued to do runs at MAF. Except on Sundays I traveled to Corpus Christi and ran with a group who were also training for Houston. Our runs started at average pace of about 9m/m. As the weeks went by we decreased the pace until we did our last 20 miler at 8:25m/m. Most of us are shooting for an 8m/m pace at the marathon. I ran with them for the comradery and to get training at faster paces. I don't know if it will work but I had never completed a marathon program w/o overuse injury before MAF. This time I maxed at 55 miles. Before I would always end up injured by 40 m/wk.

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Clay

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posted Jan-09-2007 04:47 PM               

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posted Jan-09-2007 05:17 PM               

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posted Jan-09-2007 05:21 PM               

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MyRunningLog
MyStuff
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posted Jan-10-2007 12:02 AM            

+ (# miles per week) 50
+ (# minutes spent pissed off per week) 30
+ (# minutes of weekly sexual activity on top) 2
+ (# kids) 0
+ (add 5 for wife or husband who hates your running) 0
+ (# pounds you weigh) 175
+ (# times you danced naked last year) 362
+ (# of pounds of garbage moved to the curb per week) 52
+ (# of asses kissed in order to keep job) 1
subtotal

- (# of hours per sleep weekly) 42
- (# of hours laying on couch lost in TVland) 7
- (# of times someone told you they loved you) 10
- (# of o's) .5
- (# of ounces of favorite liquid drug like beer, coffee, etc.) 105
- (# of times playin Uno with the Dali Lama) 1

total=504.5

Divide total by 600=.84 (round off to nearest whole digit) 1
the answer is the number of days you should rest from running per week

--Jimmy

2007 Jog Log
historical carp

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posted Jan-10-2007 12:20 AM            

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posted Jan-10-2007 09:34 AM               

I feel as if I need to work on my aerobic system, but I am only going to average 20 - 24 miles per week with 1 week a month around 14 - 15 miles (75 - 80 miles a month). Will MAF training even be benefitual to someone like me running such a low mileage?

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Took back my life on July 17th, 2006.

[This message has been edited by SysTemP (edited Mar-28-2007).]

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posted Jan-10-2007 12:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by SysTemP:
Excuse me if my question is addressed somewhere in this long thread. I could not get all the way through it.

I feel as if I need to work on my aerobic system, but I am only going to average 20 - 24 miles per week with 1 week a month around 14 - 15 miles (75 - 80 miles a month). Will MAF training even be benefitual to someone like me running such a low mileage?

---

The short answer is maybe. With weekly mileage that low, it will take a very long time to see any benefit. People generally see improvement after about 300 miles, so you will be running for over 3 months and maybe you will see something small happen. I personally would not buy a HRM if I were running that low of a mileage, but that is just me. You are the one that needs to decide if you are willing to try this.

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posted Jan-10-2007 12:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by SysTemP:
Excuse me if my question is addressed somewhere in this long thread. I could not get all the way through it.

I feel as if I need to work on my aerobic system, but I am only going to average 20 - 24 miles per week with 1 week a month around 14 - 15 miles (75 - 80 miles a month). Will MAF training even be benefitual to someone like me running such a low mileage?

---

A few questions:

What training set-up have you been doing?
What results were you looking for?
Did you achieve those results?

Why do you feel you need work on your aerobic system? What happened that indicated to you that this was necessary?
What results are you looking for now? What do you want to manifest?

Why do birds suddenly appear, every time you are near?

Once you answer these, things will be a bit clearer for everyone.

--Jimmy

Daily Jogging Miles
My Glorious Past

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posted Jan-10-2007 03:33 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
What training set-up have you been doing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
What results were you looking for?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Did you achieve those results?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Why do you feel you need work on your aerobic system?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
What happened that indicated to you that this was necessary?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
What results are you looking for now? What do you want to manifest?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Why do birds suddenly appear, every time you are near?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Once you answer these, things will be a bit clearer for everyone.

--Jimmy

---

Good enough?

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Took back my life on July 17th, 2006.
My Log

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posted Jan-10-2007 03:48 PM               

If you're completely spent after your runs, you're running too fast. You're anaerobic. The training value is minimal without a solid aerobic base.

If you hate running b/c you're spent when you're done, and yet you don't want to slow down, ... I'm lost.

You don't have to buy a HRM, but they're cheap, and it's a good way to establish a feel for how "hard" you're training. It's also a good way, as you said, to force yourself to slow down enough to get a good aerobic training benefit.

For years I always thought I was in "good shape" b/c I could go run 5 or 10 or even 15 miles. But I was in poor aerobic condition. I slowed way down with MAF training, learned to enjoy running slow, and over the last 6 months have sped up a lot.

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posted Jan-10-2007 04:04 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Nihilum:
If you're completely spent after your runs, you're running too fast. You're anaerobic. The training value is minimal without a solid aerobic base.

If you hate running b/c you're spent when you're done, and yet you don't want to slow down, ... I'm lost.
.

---

I would like to add that It took me 36 minutes and 10 seconds to run 3 miles last night staying at 144 MAF (180 - age). This is a lot slower than what I could actually do if I just ran as quick as I could (probably do a 28 minute 3 mile). Is this an indication that I do need to work on my aerobic base?

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Took back my life on July 17th, 2006.
My Log

[This message has been edited by SysTemP (edited Jan-10-2007).]

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posted Jan-10-2007 07:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by SysTemP:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ad Nihilum:
[b]If you're completely spent after your runs, you're running too fast. You're anaerobic. The training value is minimal without a solid aerobic base.

If you hate running b/c you're spent when you're done, and yet you don't want to slow down, ... I'm lost.
.

---

I would like to add that It took me 36 minutes and 10 seconds to run 3 miles last night staying at 144 MAF (180 - age). This is a lot slower than what I could actually do if I just ran as quick as I could (probably do a 28 minute 3 mile). Is this an indication that I do need to work on my aerobic base?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, with a look at the goals, I will say that this is a good way to 'learn' the proper pace and feel of training. You have stumbled on a good thing if your wish is to be a lifelong runner.

I would reccommend trying a race though. Start small and local, try it for the fun of it and support your community and local running scene. You might even find a friend or two at the races.

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posted Jan-11-2007 12:02 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by SysTemP:
Good enough?

---

Fine, especially the lyrics.

The HRM will help you slow down, but the interesting thing is that, if you do things right, you'll probably get back to the speed you've been working at lately, but at a much lower HR and fatigue.

At 20 miles per week, it might take a little while to speed up. What's going to happen is that if you use MAF or a 65, 70, or 75% MHR as your ceiling, you will be going much slower than you are probably used to. You'll feel like you're in a strange running dream where you can't speed up, and everything is moving fast around you. Stick with it. If you can, build your mileage a little bit every few weeks.

When you keep your HR down below your MAF or even a 75% MHR, not going over, you will develope those slow twitch fibers and get a solid arobic system. Your body will get used to using fat, and being able to maintain speed while using fat.

You won't be out of breath and "spent"--even after a 20-miler. You'll be a bit tired after a longie, but not spent, and certainly not out of breath.

I've used this system and have been happy with the results.

It's not only good for marathons, but 5k's, 10k's, and sprints to the fridge.
Do this training for awhile, then add some speedy mile and ZOOM!

Endurance.

Good luck. I wish you the best.

--Jimmy

Daily Jogging Miles
The Altar of My Accomplishments (kneel and read)

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posted Jan-11-2007 11:05 AM               

Last night I almost had to walk to stay under 144 HR during a little 3 mile run. my last mile was 13:12. This is definetely teaching me a thing or two about patience.

I really appreciate the responses I received.

------------------
Took back my life on July 17th, 2006.
My Log

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posted Jan-11-2007 11:56 AM               

I started MAF training back in August 2006. Initially I used a HR range of 130-140, although my 180-age=145. My fastest pace at HR 140 was about 12:30 min/mile.

My weekly mileage increased from 25 mpw to about 50 mpw currently. I went from running 5 days a week to 7 days a week.

At HR 140, I can now run a 9:40 min/mile pace. An improvement of about 3:00 min/mile.

After 4 solid months of HR 140 training, I changed my training based on Stu Mittleman's MAP and MEP zones (he was a protege of Phillip Maffetone). My lower MAP zone was 130-140 and my higher MEP zone was 140-150. Yes, the 150 was technically higher than the 180-age=145 number but as Mittleman explains, the number is just an approximation. By paying close attention to your body you can determine a more accurate training range that is still mostly aerobic.

Anyway, I can now run an 8:45 min/mile pace at HR < 150. Compared to the 12:30 min/miles I was running in August, this feels like being strapped to a rocket.

Further, when I run "nice and easy" at HR 127-ish, around 65% of my max HR (195), I can run faster than 10:30 min/mile.

My point is: If you stick with it, you would definitely build. The more mileage per week, the faster your results. As you get faster, you will naturally increase the number of miles per week you run, if you hold the number of hours per week the same. It's better to go by hours than miles, in my opinion. I train about 8 hours per week and hope to get that to 10 by spring/summer.

I'm in the best aerobic condition I've ever been in and I'm still building and making progress. In June I'll start doing some lactate threshold training as described in the Hadd article. My goal is now a sub 3:30 marathon in the fall, something I thought totally out of reach last year. My two marathons times are 4:30 and 4:56.

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posted Jan-11-2007 12:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by SysTemP:
So I guess the long and short of it is this method of training can benefit me even with 24 miles a week. I do plan to continue to increase my mileage, however I never forsee myself running more than maybe 34 or so miles a week. I am going to continue with this method through April and then start some speed type work and then get into runnig races. I will update people on my progress as yet another example of this type training.

Last night I almost had to walk to stay under 144 HR during a little 3 mile run. my last mile was 13:12. This is definetely teaching me a thing or two about patience.

I really appreciate the responses I received.

---

A 13:12 last mile isn't bad for a first effort. I was there just last summer.
Try a 14+!! It was hot.

Good luck. Enjoy your new pace. It will pick up, just keep down there.

--Jimmy

Daily Jogging Miles
Defining the present with my past

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posted Jan-11-2007 12:55 PM            

I am going to try again tonight on the TM but use 155 as my top until I can get more comfortable with it. I know this is not ideal and it may take longer to improve aerobic base but I think this pace will be slow enough to allow me to add days/miles so it should balance out. Does this sound reasonable? Any other suggestions to help me stay slow?

[This message has been edited by notquitethere (edited Jan-11-2007).]

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posted Jan-11-2007 03:24 PM               

But doing it your way, is better than hurting yourself or quiting. You should not have to change your stride to stay under maf, but some people have said the same thing you do.

Most of us can keep the same form and stride rate, just not put as much power into the toe off and thus have a shorter stride length.

System, when I started Maf, I was at 18 minute miles during training and 12:19 pace for racing, a year and a half ago. Yes I had to walk many times to get the heart rate down and then start jogging again. Rinse repeat.

Now my training pace at maf is about 12 minutes per mile and I ran the 5k leg of my tri last month at 7:23 pace or 22:55 for the 5k.

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posted Jan-12-2007 12:26 AM               

If you running at say 4 mph at 1% to 2% incline with a HR of 137ish,VS 4.5 to 4.7 mph at 0% incline with a HR of 137ish. On one side you can increase speed the other side you increase incline..... is one MAF type workout better than the other? Would they be considered a "different" type of MAF work out? Would the end results be the same? Would alternating these two workouts be benificial? My thinking is that if both increased separately, they could eventually come together with impressive results.....

**DTFB**

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posted Jan-12-2007 04:56 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth26:
Just a question and your opnions...

If you running at say 4 mph at 1% to 2% incline with a HR of 137ish,VS 4.5 to 4.7 mph at 0% incline with a HR of 137ish. On one side you can increase speed the other side you increase incline..... is one MAF type workout better than the other? Would they be considered a "different" type of MAF work out? Would the end results be the same? Would alternating these two workouts be benificial? My thinking is that if both increased separately, they could eventually come together with impressive results.....

**DTFB**

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I would spend more time at the higher turnover rate (lowest incline)
assuming you want to continue to get faster. That's what I do anyway.
For myself, I get plenty of incline just running outside around here,
so I never use treadmill incline. That may not be the case for you.

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posted Jan-12-2007 05:35 AM               

Time will tell.
**DTFB**

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