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Topic: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen |
runyak
Member |
 posted Dec-31-2006 12:42 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
I can only guess you were dehydrated. How much did you weigh
before and after your run and how much did you drink during?
Haven't done the weigh-in either pre or post run, but normally go through 24 oz every hour on shorter runs. As far as water consumption for this run: took a swig every 10 minutes, a little more often toward the end, and ended up drinking 120 ounces over the course of the run. You're probably correct as I've demonstrated a lack of water ingestion in prior marathons. I just thought I was drinking enough. I'll try the weigh-in over my next 2 12 milers. Any comments about the taper approach? Im assuming that since the miles are at MAF, a long taper is not really needed? Thank you.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-31-2006 01:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by runyak:
Haven't done the weigh-in either pre or post run, but normally go through 24 oz every hour on shorter runs. As far as water consumption for this run: took a swig every 10 minutes, a little more often toward the end, and ended up drinking 120 ounces over the course of the run. You're probably correct as I've demonstrated a lack of water ingestion in prior marathons. I just thought I was drinking enough. I'll try the weigh-in over my next 2 12 milers. Any comments about the taper approach? Im assuming that since the miles are at MAF, a long taper is not really needed? Thank you.
95% chance it was dehydration. Without knowing specific
weights before/after it's impossible to pinpoint. As far as your
taper goes, it's definitely a personal thing and dependent a lot
on how you feel. Since I don't work hard in training, I don't
bother to taper, unless I'm just generally feeling overworked,
which for me usually comes when I've accumulated a lot
of recent races. I think if you follow strict MAF running, you
can really get away with no taper. There were two marathons
I did this year the day after a 20 mile run, one in 3:19 in
20 degree weather and another one week later in 3:29 in
80 degree weather.
------------------
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-31-2006 04:15 PM
Hey everybody,I've started a blog to document the success (hopefully) of a new marathon training program I put together. I began Maffing in May 2006 and I believe it paid great dividends. This is not a Maff program, more similar to a Hadd type program, but it is HR based so I figured people here might be interested in taking a look. If you visit, please give feedback positive or negative, it's all valued. In case I messed up the site on my signature, it is hrmarathontraining.blogspot.com. ------------------
My Profile "Pain is Temporary. Regret Lingers Forever."
hrmarathontraining.blogspot.com
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bdags
Member |
posted Dec-31-2006 05:14 PM
Progress! I've knocked about 50 seconds/mile off my pace (although still slow) and lowered my avg. HR about 3-4 beats in about 1 1/2 weeks since dropping from 143 BPM to 138 BPM. Also, no more problems with drift. Funny how that works!bdags
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crb81
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-31-2006 07:37 PM
HR was normal. Air temp was OK. I routinely take only water on my long runs, and assumed I was well hydrated. Only thing I can think of is lack of carbs as once I did get home (just another 0.5 miles walking), I felt immediately better after downing 2 sodas, 6 chocolate truffles, and 2 glasses of Accelerade. I agree. Dehydration would have resulted in increased HR. Sounds like hypoglycemia to me. ------------------
Clay
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-31-2006 09:30 PM
Hey guys. I am back from the holiday and just catching up on the thread. This is to the person who ran four hours with just water. It is very important that you have some sort of electolyte available to ingest. In the ultra fourm there are quite a few that swear by Succed (sp?) tabs. In a run that lasts four hours, you should have something, even if it is just a salt packet/tablet. You can avoid carbs, but you will die without elecrtolytes. ------------------
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crb81
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-31-2006 09:51 PM
runyak,
Where are you and what were the temperatures? Unless you are in the extreme south, I doubt it was electrolytes or dehydration. Taking a sports drink and/or goo during the race should make this a nonfactor.------------------
Clay
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runyak
Member |
posted Jan-01-2007 01:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by crb81:
runyak,
Where are you and what were the temperatures? Unless you are in the extreme south, I doubt it was electrolytes or dehydration. Taking a sports drink and/or goo during the race should make this a nonfactor.
Phoenix AZ with temps between 40 and 48 at time of run. Did a weigh in pre and post run (9 miles) today and found out there was about 2 # difference even with drinking 26 oz water during the run. Based on this snapshot, it looks like
I need to drink about 6 oz per mile to keep up with my perspiration and respiration water loss. My approach has been to carry either 1 or 2 (depending upon the distance and route) 20 oz bottles in a pack and imbibe the contents of one each hour. Therefore, my normal easy run intake for this distance would have been only 3 oz per mile @ 10 min/mile, which is woefully short based on the above snapshot. Like leitnerj suggested, I will repeat this weigh in procedure several more times and take the average. Currently my plan for this marathon is to just stop at every water station and take in a full 6 oz. And, of course, will add the gels every 45-50 minutes. Don't think I will lose too many seconds per mile overall according to other reports. Thanks to all.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-01-2007 01:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by runyak:
Phoenix AZ with temps between 40 and 48 at time of run. Did a weigh in pre and post run (9 miles) today and found out there was about 2 # difference even with drinking 26 oz water during the run. Based on this snapshot, it looks like
I need to drink about 6 oz per mile to keep up with my perspiration and respiration water loss. My approach has been to carry either 1 or 2 (depending upon the distance and route) 20 oz bottles in a pack and imbibe the contents of one each hour. Therefore, my normal easy run intake for this distance would have been only 3 oz per mile @ 10 min/mile, which is woefully short based on the above snapshot. Like leitnerj suggested, I will repeat this weigh in procedure several more times and take the average. Currently my plan for this marathon is to just stop at every water station and take in a full 6 oz. And, of course, will add the gels every 45-50 minutes. Don't think I will lose too many seconds per mile overall according to other reports.
Ok, good recordkeeping - it will help you! A couple of points: 1. Keep in mind that your amount of dehydration per mile is
also a function of your intensity, the course profile, and most
importantly the temperature and humidity (if you take note of
the temperature and dewpoint, that will tell the story). Also,
at least in warmer weather, you will dehydrate at a higher rate
later in long runs. 2. Drink what you can at each aid station, but don't worry about
it beyond that. You will end up dehydrated by the end, most
likely, but if you take in what you can at water stops, that should
be sufficient. ------------------
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ZimGrlRun
Member |
posted Jan-04-2007 09:24 PM
I was making some really good progress on my MAFFing but I came down with a cold a week or so ago. My times slowed but I kept on increasing my mileage.Now, my HR doesn't stabilize close to my MAFF (155) like it used to before the cold. Is there a rule to go by when one has a cold? Increase or decrease my HR? Also, I am planning to run a HM on January 21. So far, my highest mileage has been 44mpw. Do I need to taper the week of the HM or I can just keep MAFFing? What do you guys do? Thank you.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-04-2007 09:34 PM
It can sometimes take 2 weeks or more to get all of the effects
of the cold flushed from your system to return back to where you
were. Just take it easy and slow and you will return. How does
your resting heart rate compare to how it was before you were
sick? That should be a decent indicator.------------------
MyRunningLog
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-06-2007 05:40 PM
zzzzzzzz....is it time?
....i think it is...........
....italy was YES.......
...great people
...great food
...magnificent uncircumcised units on those statues
...not fat
...lots of walking in Italy
...St. Catherine's head in Siena changed my life
zzzzzzzzzzzz.....is it time?
....running
...oh, yeah, I'm a runner
..started forgetting that identity
....25 miles since November 20...
zzzzzzzzzz
...start tomorrow.......
....for real.......
....make a goal....
...zzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzz.....5 miles seems long in my mind
.....will it hurt?
....everything is rested
...especially my mind
zzzzzzzzz....
...good runner's world this month---endurance
...enough already about Lance and his running through pain and having it be hard. Had Joanie elbowing people for him. Joanie is my hero. I'd break 3 hours if I had Joanie running with me. I'd be running on air.
...as I ran back in from the out and back at Philly Marathon, thinking I was MR. Mentally strong because I was running in pain, I saw the runners at the back of the pack. They knew they'd be finishing in 5-6-7 hours. Then they do it. THAT'S mental strength.They deserve the articles in Runner's World.
zzzzzzzzzzzz....
...happy new year enduropeople
...be healthy
...longer
...faster
...no chaffing
...no stored energy on waist or thighs
...find your inner coach
...run here, run now
....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....tomorrow....zzzzzzzzz
--JimmyProfile Star the new year with a yuck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPx266rGw3E
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Tommytwolegs
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 07:28 AM
In my 1st base-building phase, does it physically matter that I mix up my paces or can I / should I run everything right up against MAF? (Right now, my variety is coming from alternating daily distances and a once-a-week "downhill" on the treadmill.)
p.s. It's OFFICIAL, I'm now a LHR believer. Yesterday, I was able to complete the local 10K course in 1:04/132bpm average and then ... after pausing for just barely a minute ... ran it a second time at 1:06/132. The best I ever did, pre-MAF, was a single loop at 0:56 followed by a full day of couch rest. Thanks guys!
[This message has been edited by Tommytwolegs (edited Jan-07-2007).]
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 07:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tommytwolegs:
In my 1st base-building phase, does it physically matter that I mix up my paces or can I / should I run everything right up against MAF?
[This message has been edited by Tommytwolegs (edited Jan-07-2007).]
What do you mean by that? What is a 1st base-building phase?
What is mixing up your paces?
Can I, should I? Experimentation will tell you everything. Inner coach. --Jimmy lala
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 11:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tommytwolegs:
In my 1st base-building phase, does it physically matter that I mix up my paces or can I / should I run everything right up against MAF? (Right now, my variety is coming from alternating daily distances and a once-a-week "downhill" on the treadmill.)
As long as you don't make it a habit of just using downhills for
recovery and just letting your HR go way down, I think it's very
useful to mix it up. I'm usually 5-10 beats or more below MAF
and I approach a pace mix in various ways. One thing I sometimes
do on hilly runs (frequently, actually) is to really slow down going
up, using it for recovery and trying to keep 10 beats below, then
speed up a lot on the downs and stick right at MAF, getting good
practice at a fast turnover. ------------------
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Boston124
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 12:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
As long as you don't make it a habit of just using downhills for
recovery and just letting your HR go way down, I think it's very
useful to mix it up. I'm usually 5-10 beats or more below MAF
and I approach a pace mix in various ways. One thing I sometimes
do on hilly runs (frequently, actually) is to really slow down going
up, using it for recovery and trying to keep 10 beats below, then
speed up a lot on the downs and stick right at MAF, getting good
practice at a fast turnover.
Jesse, How do you like the Garmin 305 compared to your previous HR Monitor equipment? Kris
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 01:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Boston124:
Jesse,How do you like the Garmin 305 compared to your previous HR Monitor equipment? Kris
The 305 blows away my last GPS device (which was the
garmin 201) and the HR monitor is basically the same,
although now all of the splits, averages, and HR profiles
are automagic. The GPS works on heavily tree-covered
trails and on all the other places where my other one
didn't work. I'm having too much fun with it! ------------------
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crb81
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 03:11 PM
The 305 blows away my last GPS device (which was the
garmin 201) and the HR monitor is basically the same,
although now all of the splits, averages, and HR profiles
are automagic. The GPS works on heavily tree-covered
trails and on all the other places where my other one
didn't work. I'm having too much fun with it!Garmin 305 rocks. I can't imagine life without it. I'm getting ready to run my first marathon next week at Houston. I spent Feb-Mar at strict MAF and June-July at strict MAF. Since then I have done a modified Hadd and this past 12 weeks have stayed pretty much at MAF except for my LR's. I run my LR's with friends at MP pace +30 to 60 sec. I will let you know how it goes and plan on doing another MAF round afterwards. FYI, my MAF has dropped from 12:30 last Feb to 9:30-10:00 now. ------------------
Clay
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labhiker
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 07:35 PM
I had a few foot pains which forced me to take time off around the holidays. After a few weeks of RICEt and no running the foot and ankle are now pain free and I want to get back into a structured training program. Prior to the forced recovery break I was logging close to 45 mpw.
Im fearful of jumping back into the same marathon training program (same weekly miles) as I do not want to pick up another overuse type injury. I feel fortunate for having just dodged any significant over use type injury and am now very sensitive to the "10% rule". I want to be smart about getting back into logging miles.Im looking for experienced advice on how to best resume weekly mileage after a few weeks of forced recovery. I ran a comfortable 5 miles today at target MAF without any pain or discomfort. In general the run felt great, however I felt like I was struggling a bit to maintain desired MAF HR. HR wanted to climb. Is it possible to loose cardiac fitness in as little as a few weeks without running? (or is due to a combination of 0 running and all the excesses associated with the holidays)
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 08:18 PM
I miss figbash and his crazy (albeit true) mileage pace and heart rates.------------------
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Tommytwolegs
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 08:52 PM
Jimmy,Originally posted by Tommytwolegs: In my 1st base-building phase, does it physically matter that I mix up my paces or can I / should I run everything right up against MAF? [This message has been edited by Tommytwolegs (edited Jan-07-2007).]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you mean by that? What is a 1st base-building phase? (This is my junior MAF-ninja test, right?) Base-building is when you run several weeks ...12+ hopefully... of strictly aerobic miles before you add speedwork. This brings about physical changes in your body's energy system that can be helpful for some *but not every* runner...especially endurance for longer distances. (Before I stumbled onto this thread, I didn't have any sort of organized training strategy ...so this is my "first" base. I also understand you should lay down additional base(s) as part of your annual training cycle, though it might not take as long in subsequent years.) What is mixing up your paces? Should I try to run everything (short, medium, and long distances) as close as possible to my MAF (133.0000 bpm), or some slower ... like long runs at 125, 119, 38, 0.5 bpm ...whatever?
Can I, should I? Experimentation will tell you everything. Inner coach. Just wondering what other people are having success with? (Do I get my junior MAF-ninja sticker?)
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 09:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tommytwolegs:
Jimmy,Originally posted by Tommytwolegs: In my 1st base-building phase, does it physically matter that I mix up my paces or can I / should I run everything right up against MAF? [This message has been edited by Tommytwolegs (edited Jan-07-2007).]
Thanks, now I get what you are talking about. Mixing it up below or against MAF at the very least will give you some variety. I've tried several things during the base period, and as long as I was "down there" , it worked. Recently I did a base period with mostly everything below MAF-10 (65% MHR for me). I've done it where I pushed gainst MAF for hard days and kept at MAF-5 or 10 on easy days. I've even done it where I do every run where I max out at the top of the zone in the last mile (doing it this way, short runs/easy days tend to be faster paced than the longies ). You can also try doing every run like a MAF test, where you stay at MAF the entire run. Most often this will be an exercise in slowing down. I prefer to peak at MAF by the last mile so that I am practicng even or negative splits. The point is to just keep at or below MAF. I believe no matter you do in the variety sense in that low zone, it will all work. Building miles is the key. I always urge people on this thread to experiment and be their own coach, and not to trust what I or anyone else is saying as truth and right. It's how I've approached all of this, and have found that some things work and some don't. For me and my "specialness." :> ) Good luck. I wish you the best this year. --jimmy My specialness
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 10:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by labhiker:
Is it possible to loose cardiac fitness in as little as a few weeks without running?
Absolutely, quite a bit! ------------------
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Boston124
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 10:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Absolutely, quite a bit!
AGREE, here with Jesse! Labhiker, I'm a GOOD example of losing fitness after a period of nearly 2 months off. This happens to me EVERY winter, and I ALWAYS kick myself for it and tell myself every year that I won't let it happen, and it does. Winter gets me really down...I HATE the cold with a passion....it is an ugly time of year, and certainly doesn't help with my asthma situation. Although, I could run in it, it is a struggle getting out the door with all those clothes on, and masks, and other stuff needed for the cold weather. However, YES, YES, YES, you will lose fitness. I am now back to the 14 min. mile (maybe alittle less!!) that I was in the beginning to middle of marathon training. I've lost quite a bit of aerobic depth, I gained weight, and my muscle tone is poor. The only person to blame is myself. I hope you are able to get back on track and do it safely with the Maffetone Method. I haven't read all the posts you've included and I'm catching up on others. I used this method for 5 years now and it does work; consistency and increasing time on your feet is a huge component of the plan for it to work. Just run and be consistent. I need to take my own advice!! This is a good place to start and great thread for help. AND....I like my Garmin 305 as well.....I know I haven't learned all the tricks it can do; yet, but will try!!! Good luck with your running,
Kris!
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-07-2007 10:28 PM
To add to Jesse's "quite a bit." My experience last year (taking 2 weeks off at the end of 2005) I lost a ton of fitness in a few weeks. Today, I came off a down period of about 7 weeks, only running 25 miles total, with about 5-6 short stationary bike workouts. My loss of fitness was not as bad as last year. This might be due to a few factors: the high volume base period I did in the fall, walking 6-10 miles a day average in Italy, and the minimal workouts I did. Her's a brief comparison: todays run:...bike trail..7 miles..9:35 pace...154 bpm in the last mile
Nov. 10th:....bike trail...7 mile...9:30 pace...141 bpm in the last mile. Definitely a loss, but not too bad for 7 weeks. --Jimmy make my story the center of your universe for a brief moment
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