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Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen


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Author Topic:   Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen
leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Apr-09-2006 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tigger:
I would expect your marathon pace to be quite a bit faster than easy paced running. MP normally should be a minute or so faster per mile. Marathons can be run around 20 to 25 beats per minute below your max heart rate. My easy pace is around 45 beats lower than max. If I ever have a hope of a BQ it will be because I can squeeze a little extra aerobic speed out of my heart.

As I said - my marathon pace outdoors on hills as compared to
treadmill pace (which is at zero incline). My outdoor pace on hills
is about 1-1:30/mile slower than my best treadmill pace.

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tigger
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posted Apr-09-2006 06:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
As I said - my marathon pace outdoors on hills as compared to
treadmill pace (which is at zero incline). My outdoor pace on hills
is about 1-1:30/mile slower than my best treadmill pace.


I run similar intensity on very hilly (coastal mountains) terrain at about 20 to 30 seconds per mile slower than TM pace. I figure the hills add about 10 seconds to my time on flatter ground.

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leitnerj
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posted Apr-09-2006 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tigger:
I run similar intensity on very hilly (coastal mountains) terrain at about 20 to 30 seconds per mile slower than TM pace. I figure the hills add about 10 seconds to my time on flatter ground.

I do it by heart rate - those paces come from matching my
heart rate on courses outdoors with elevation variations of
around 700 ft or so with the best pace before heart rate
drift on the treadmill. When I run technical trails which
include stream crossings, 20-25% grade hills, and other
such elements, my pace is reduced by around 3 min/mile
at a fixed heart rate. It's basically a science experiment
for me - I log every mile split and average heart rate over
such - it's all in my running log (exception being on some
trails where GPS craps out - I just ran a 50 mile trail
race yesterday and it lost signal completely after mile
20 - at the end it said I had run 317.4 miles).

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tigger
Member
posted Apr-09-2006 09:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
I do it by heart rate - those paces come from matching my
heart rate on courses outdoors with elevation variations of
around 700 ft or so with the best pace before heart rate
drift on the treadmill. When I run technical trails which
include stream crossings, 20-25% grade hills, and other
such elements, my pace is reduced by around 3 min/mile
at a fixed heart rate. It's basically a science experiment
for me - I log every mile split and average heart rate over
such - it's all in my running log (exception being on some
trails where GPS craps out - I just ran a 50 mile trail
race yesterday and it lost signal completely after mile
20 - at the end it said I had run 317.4 miles).




Nice run! That would really help the weekly average!

Yes, when I said intensity I meant HR. I just check my HR every 10 minutes and average them. Crude but close enough for me. I don't run quite that steep of hills but I have 3 uphill and 3 downhill sections of a kilometer at about 10% grade.

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leitnerj
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posted Apr-09-2006 10:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tigger:

Nice run! That would really help the weekly average!

Yes, when I said intensity I meant HR. I just check my HR every 10 minutes and average them. Crude but close enough for me. I don't run quite that steep of hills but I have 3 uphill and 3 downhill sections of a kilometer at about 10% grade.


keep in mind also that on the treadmill, without air resistance,
you get higher pace at given heart rate and that frequently
heart rate will run a bit higher during a race due to the environment.

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kcy1998
Cool Runner
posted Apr-10-2006 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kcy1998     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you have been following my threads then you know that I have been maffing for the past 14 weeks. I have gone from a weekly avg pace of 14:00 mm to 11:37 mm while going from 20 miles a week to 40 miles. Now I have a Half Marathon this Saturday. Will it hurt if I eat an hour before the race? Since maffing I have not eaten any less than 3 hour prior to my runs. The race is at 07:30 and I will have to leave the house by 05:30 in the morning. If I stop eating at 06:30 will that cause my body to quit using mainly fat and to consume more carbs? My goal pace is a 08:05 mm and I really do not want to do anything to hamper my goal. TIA kc

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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner
posted Apr-11-2006 12:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jjwaverly42   Click Here to Email jjwaverly42     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kcy1998:
If you have been following my threads then you know that I have been maffing for the past 14 weeks. I have gone from a weekly avg pace of 14:00 mm to 11:37 mm while going from 20 miles a week to 40 miles. Now I have a Half Marathon this Saturday. Will it hurt if I eat an hour before the race? Since maffing I have not eaten any less than 3 hour prior to my runs. The race is at 07:30 and I will have to leave the house by 05:30 in the morning. If I stop eating at 06:30 will that cause my body to quit using mainly fat and to consume more carbs? My goal pace is a 08:05 mm and I really do not want to do anything to hamper my goal. TIA kc


For a race at 7:30, I either wouldn't eat (eat before I go to bed), or get up at 4-4:30 and eat just a few hundred calories right away (if the race is close by, go back to bed). I just don't like eating closer than 3 hours before a race. I always do better in so many ways when I don't. For my marathon PR, I ate at 4:00 Am for an 8:00 race. Just a few pieces of WW french toast.

That's me. You have to ask yourself why you need to eat at 6:30, an hour before the race. What does it get you? If you don't eat you won't bonk during the race--your body will be using it's fat and glycogen quite nicely (hopefully more fat than in the past). Bring some GU and wait until you've been racing about 45 minutes, and do one. Won't hurt.

Good luck. Have a great race. Have fun!

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner
posted Apr-11-2006 01:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jjwaverly42   Click Here to Email jjwaverly42     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
P.S. My first and worst marathon, I ate pancakes an hour before the race. I had difficulty from the gitgo in that race, and hit a major wall at mile 20. There were other factors than the carbs right before the race, like the heat, Cape Cod hills, and no sleep. Still, I was rested enough, and it wasn't that hot at the start. When the cannon went off, I just could not get my legs moving for at least 5 miles. Back then I didn't know about the no carbs less than 3-4 hours before running thing. In hindsight, I really think eating so close to the race contributed to a very difficult start.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Apr-11-2006).]

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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner
posted Apr-11-2006 01:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jjwaverly42   Click Here to Email jjwaverly42     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.e-caps.com/za/ECP?PAGE=HCA_ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=2227

This article contains some info about eating and racing.

--JJ

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diane143
Cool Runner
posted Apr-11-2006 07:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for diane143   Click Here to Email diane143     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have to look back through my log for the 5K week but is there any data on HR being *lower* the week following a hard effort? But I would swear my hr wasn't bad the week following my last 5K either.

I did a difficult 2 hour mtb race on Saturday. The conditions were horrible, it rained, snowed and sleeting in the hours before we went out, and course was deep mud. My HR came down during the race but I blew my quads out dealing with the goop pretty early.

I did 5.13 miles this morning, 10:06 pace and an average of 141.

My splits/hr were:
9:48 131
10:20 138
10:16 144
10:29 144
9:51 147

I only went over 150 in the last lap when we went up a hill. As you can see, my Z1 is nonexistent.

My run last week was 4.32 miles at 10:54/149bpm

I know my HR has been coming down but this seems pretty good considering the circumstances...... I can't remember the last time I did a low 10 at under 150.


Diane

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tigger
Member
posted Apr-11-2006 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by diane143:
I have to look back through my log for the 5K week but is there any data on HR being *lower* the week following a hard effort? But I would swear my hr wasn't bad the week following my last 5K either.


Diane


I have noticed the same effect after a good threshold run.

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11
Member
posted Apr-11-2006 08:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 11     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I believe I might meet the criteria for this training as I am plagued with minor and now a severe case of medial tibial stress syndrome caused by navicular drop (now wearing orthotics and aircasts), I get sick often, and my run times do not improve no matter how I train. I should add that I have never trained at more than ten miles per week.

I would like to ask the following question:

Somewhere in the thread you mention to one poster that he/she might benefit more from a 5K program, yet also mention in another post that this method will help with distances as short as 400? Will this help me in my two-mile goals and eventual half marathon goals? I just ran a pathetic 17:32 two-mile run which is three and a half minutes slower than my goal. Will this method help me with that?

My 2-mile goal is 14:00 and my HM goal is a 8:00 per mile pace. Id also like to build to a 40 mile week, all injury free.

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11
Member
posted Apr-11-2006 09:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 11     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mumzi23:
..I'm not sure how I'm gonna managed to do it and keep my heart rate low without sinking. Need to be in the pool because we have a boat and I need to know how to swim better than I do.
Molly

Sorry for getting off topic

While body surfing as a child I learned to hold my breath between breaths. This keeps me at positive boyancy whether Im moving or not.

Inhale, hold, exhale and immediately inhale then hold-repeat-

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Apr-11-2006 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 11:

I believe I might meet the criteria for this training as I am plagued with minor and now a severe case of medial tibial stress syndrome caused by navicular drop (now wearing orthotics and aircasts), I get sick often, and my run times do not improve no matter how I train. I should add that I have never trained at more than ten miles per week.

I would like to ask the following question:

Somewhere in the thread you mention to one poster that he/she might benefit more from a 5K program, yet also mention in another post that this method will help with distances as short as 400? Will this help me in my two-mile goals and eventual half marathon goals? I just ran a pathetic 17:32 two-mile run which is three and a half minutes slower than my goal. Will this method help me with that?

My 2-mile goal is 14:00 and my HM goal is a 8:00 per mile pace. Id also like to build to a 40 mile week, all injury free.


I have no evidence that it would actually help in a 400
because it's been forever since I've done one. However,
I can only say that I achieved significant performance
increase in every distance of 1 mile or greater. This
should help you get your mileage up injury free, but
given your propensity towards injuries, you still need to
be mindful of what's going on.

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Apr-11-2006 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by diane143:
I have to look back through my log for the 5K week but is there any data on HR being *lower* the week following a hard effort? But I would swear my hr wasn't bad the week following my last 5K either.

I did a difficult 2 hour mtb race on Saturday. The conditions were horrible, it rained, snowed and sleeting in the hours before we went out, and course was deep mud. My HR came down during the race but I blew my quads out dealing with the goop pretty early.

I did 5.13 miles this morning, 10:06 pace and an average of 141.

My splits/hr were:
9:48 131
10:20 138
10:16 144
10:29 144
9:51 147

I only went over 150 in the last lap when we went up a hill. As you can see, my Z1 is nonexistent.

My run last week was 4.32 miles at 10:54/149bpm

I know my HR has been coming down but this seems pretty good considering the circumstances...... I can't remember the last time I did a low 10 at under 150.


Diane


It depends on what is meant by a hard run. I've definitely
seen a jump in performance the week after a race,
numerous times, whether the race was 10 mile, marathon,
or longer. It's not always the case, but it hasn't been an
unusual circumstance.

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labhiker
Cool Runner
posted Apr-12-2006 10:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for labhiker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Im having trouble dropping a few pounds and could use some help/advise.

For the past 3 -4 months I am following a rather strict low HR training program. My weekly mileage is now averaging around 35mpw. During this period my weight has remained rather stable.

I started monitoring my diet using the free version of Fitday and increased my weekly mileage. For some reason my weight is not changing? Fitday has me burning more calories than I consume. On average the program has me burning between 500 - 1000+ calories more than my daily intake.

Is there a way to determine what minimum or maximum daily intake should be?

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tigger
Member
posted Apr-12-2006 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you are truly burning 500 to 1000 calories per day more than your intake then you will lose one to two lbs per week. If you are not losing weight then you are consuming the same amount of calories as you are burning.

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Tommytwolegs
Cool Runner
posted Apr-12-2006 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tommytwolegs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
labhiker,

"During this period my weight has remained rather stable."

My weight is also stable, but I am eating more (...also healthier) calories and do a much better job of staying hydrated since I've been running about two months now.

My body fat percentage, however, is going down and my pants are getting a little more loose all the time ... so I deduct I am replacing an equivalent weight of bulky fat with more compact muscle. I think when we say we want to lose "weight", most of us really mean we want to lose fat.

Are your clothes fitting any differently?

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kcy1998
Cool Runner
posted Apr-12-2006 01:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kcy1998     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You know my story so I am not going into it again. This is another question about race day. Prior to starting the Maff program I used to run and drink Gatorade. Since I have been Maffing I have had nothing but water on my runs. Will taking Gatorade during the half marathon be a negative or a positive? I am thinking that it will help with the electrolytes.

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Cashmason
Cool Runner
posted Apr-12-2006 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cashmason     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kcy1998, it should be a postive.

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Apr-12-2006 05:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kcy1998:
You know my story so I am not going into it again. This is another question about race day. Prior to starting the Maff program I used to run and drink Gatorade. Since I have been Maffing I have had nothing but water on my runs. Will taking Gatorade during the half marathon be a negative or a positive? I am thinking that it will help with the electrolytes.

as cashmason said, it should be a positive. I would
still recommend that you don't start the gatorade until
you are a good 15-20 minutes or so into the race so that
you don't encourage glycogen vs fat burning. If there's
an aid station at mile 2-3, that should be fine to start
gatorade.

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11
Member
posted Apr-14-2006 04:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 11     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I went out and tried my own MAF test on a treadmill in a gym.

Mile/HR:
15:23 132
16:48 132

This was after a two mile warm up of a brisk walk at 4 miles per hour.

Im not sure why the large difference between the two times, possible because Im not that well acquainted with a treadmill.

Then last night I jogged a couple of miles under 132 BPM. It was torturorusly slow. Interestingly, I can march at 4 miles per hour with a rucksack and my heart rate is typically 110. But to keep my heart rate below 132 while "running" I have have to go about 3 miles per hour. Usually I can jog along comfortably at about 9 minutes a mile with my heart rate around 145.

I was also suprised at how hard it works the glutes.

Anyway, Im commited to the idea for at least thenext 16 weeks Then Ill do it again. I have nothing to loose at this rate and I like all Ive read in the FAQ and elsewhere.

Ill keep you posted for what its worth-

11


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kcy1998
Cool Runner
posted Apr-14-2006 09:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kcy1998     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Best of luck to you 11. I have been at it for 14 weeks and have seen my slowest mile go from a 15:50 pace to 11:33 pace. I am still running slower than my slower than my last marathon but I am keeping my HR below MAF. Basically all of the miles have been on the TM. Stay with it and if you have any questions feel free to post them here. Everyone on the thread have answered my questions with lots of insight. Stay with it and check the ego at the door.

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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner
posted Apr-14-2006 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jjwaverly42   Click Here to Email jjwaverly42     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MAFFETONE EXPERIMENT WRAP-UP

Below are the MAF tests that I've done since starting Maffetone training. All of these were done on a treadmill, at the same temp, and at 0% incline. You'll see that there is a loss of fitness trend that continued until the run on 3/30. All the miles between 11/30 and 3/25 were done at or under MAF of 141. I did a lactate threshold run during a race on 3/26 for 6 miles. After that, I stopped slowing down at the end of long runs and letting my HR drift 5-10 beats over MAF. Mileage was also increased to 70 miles per week. I saw a rapid increase in fitness.

MAF TESTS:
DATE.........ave pace....decay from mile 1-5
11/30/05.......10:07.....15.58%
12/12/05.......10:14.....12.98%
2/8/06..........10:32.....13.27%
2/17/06........10:35.....13.70%
3/30/06........10:12.....10.69%
4/13/06..........9:54 .....8.04%

I started using some MAF runs for recovery during training for Philly Marathon. At the time, I was running "hard" aerobic runs between 65-78% HRR and other recovery runs at 70% HRR and below. Included were some all-out races, lactate threshold runs between 76-88% HRR, and a few interval sessions at 93-98% HRR. I followed a hard/easy approach. Here are the MAF runs I did during this training. These runs are a good indicator of my aerobic fitness at the time.

MAF RUNS DURING MULTI-ZONE TRAINING:
HAHR=(highest average heart rate per mile)
date..........distance.....HAHR..pace.....course
8/24/05......5 miles .....136.....9:39.......Bike Trail
9/17/05......7 miles .....136.....9:32.......Bike Trail
9/25/05......9 miles.....138.....9:24.......Bike Trail
10/11/05.....5 miles.....134.....9:45.......Bike Trail
10/13/05.....7 miles.....136.....9:32.......Bike Trail

PHILLY MARATHON:
11/20/05....... 26.2miles.......time:3:28.10......pace: 7:57 *BQ

A week after the marathon, I started Maffetone Training. All miles averaging 141 or below. Below are the 7 milers I did. The times are remarkably slower than during the multi-zone training period at the same heart rate. Some of the slowing might have been due to post-marathon tiredness, less mileage, and a two week break, but that doesn't account for it all. It took sixteen weeks to get back to 10:48. I experienced a loss of fitness that slowly started to return as I increased mileage and the length of my long runs.

7 MILERS DURING MAFFETONE TRAINING:
11/27/05.......7 miles .....139.....10:48.......Bike Trail
12/1/05.........7 miles......140.....10:56.......Bike Trail
12/3/05..........7 miles.....138.....10:28.......Bike Trail

(2 week break from running from 12/17/05 to 1/02/06)

1/20/06..........7 miles.....139.....11:33.......Bike Trail
3/22/06....... 7 miles.....135.....11:21.......Bike Trail
3/28/06....... 7 miles.....139.....11:11.......Bike Trail
4/1/06............7 miles.....139 .....10:48.......Bike Trail

5 MILERS DURING MAFFETONE TRAINING:
12/2/05..........5 miles......141.....10:31.......TM
12/5/05..........5 miles......134......10:34 ......TM
12/14/05........5 miles......137......10:22 .......TM

(2 week break from running from 12/17/05 to 1/02/06)

1/17/06..........5 miles......135......11:03 .......TM
1/26/06..........5 miles......137......11:07 .......TM
2/9/06............5 miles......136......10:28........TM
3/9/06............5 miles......135......10:10........TM


From the data I've compiled, these are my observations and thoughts about training at or below the MAF:

--I experienced a rapid loss of fitness that reversed itself only when I increased weekly mileage and the length of my long runs to 20+ miles. The rate of progression increased when I topped 70 miles per week and allowed my HR to go to MAF +5 to 10 (67-70% HRR) in the last quarter of my medium long and long runs. Included in this rapid progression was one lactate threshold run that topped out at MAF +37 (88% HRR).

--My rate of progress during this aerobic base period was much slower than when I trained in the two zones prescribed by Hadd (55-60% HRR for recovery days, and 60-77% HRR on hard days), or the two zones I used during Pfitzinger training (65-78% HRR for hard days and 70% HRR for easy days). I never had a loss of fitness with Hadd and Pfitzinger training.

--my progress might have been due more to the higher mileage than the MAF zone (65% HRR and below)

--For me, when I'm building an aerobic base, I think what works best is using a percentage of HRR in two zones. The hard day zone should rise to a ceiling of at least 70% HRR by the end of the run. I found 78% HRR by the end of the run to work really well. Not adding on for drift. The easy/recovery day zone needs to be easy. I ran my best marathon when I started to use MAF and below for some of my easy days. 70% HRR and below worked well during the base periods.

--when I did my first lactate threshold run a t a 10k race, and my first marathon race pace tempo run on Monday, my legs felt slow, and my fitness was no where near what it was prior to the Philadelphia Marathon.

--At this point, I believe that a percentage of MHR or HRR is the way to go. The use of any formula (i.e. 180-age, 205-1/2 age. 220-age) is too arbitrary and doesn't cover everyone. My data from the last two years of trying 3 different methods of heart-rate training indicates that I am still working aerobically on my hard days if I top out near 78% HRR on my 14-22 milers. This ceiling includes at least 5-10 BPM (maybe more) of HR drift, thus by the last part of a long run, I'm really exerting myself the same as about 70% HRR. It's still aerobic.


--I'm going to continue to do MAF tests as I return to multi-zone training. I think it's an excellent way of measuring aerobic fitness. I also am still a believer in a 12-week aerobic base period of no speedwork, racing or lactate threshold work. And of course using the HRM as a tool to either slow myself down or speed myself up according to my body's fitness, not what I think I should be running.


So, since, I'm not pure Maffetone any more, I'll leave this report as my last post in this thread. Take it or leave it, of course.

Thanks Jesse.

It was a worthwhile experiment.

--Jimmy

My Running World


[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Apr-14-2006).]

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junkmiles
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posted Apr-14-2006 10:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for junkmiles     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
MAFFETONE EXPERIMENT WRAP-UP

So, since, I'm not pure Maffetone any more, I'll leave this report as my last post in this thread. Take it or leave it, of course.

Thanks Jesse.

It was a worthwhile experiment.

--Jimmy


Jimmy,

Good luck in Boston on Monday!

Thanks for the report and your rational contributions to the thread.

Just a comment on your report, while it is only one data point it may provide some support for the notion that Jesse's massive volume plays a significant role in his success with this approach. MAF at low volume (<40mpw) seems to work for some folks here, but the rate of improvement is pretty slow if we go by the posts on this thread (and the previous one).

Thanks again,


--jm

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