posted Oct-12-2006 09:31 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Southern Man:
I am interested in doing a period of base building using a heart-rate monitor and following the principles of the Hadd thread. I read the first three pages of this thread and the last three pages--seems to me like the Hadd principles are compatible with the MAF principles? Right? Hadd uses some higher aerobic runs, it seems like that is not the same as Maff principles?

I go into this with somewhat mixed feelings, I am not a great candidate to see big improvements since I don't race most of my runs and I have a pretty good relationship in my race times, but I did benefit from a long period of base building last year to help me get to that point. I view the HRM as a tool to help me do what I was doing last year even better. Waiting until I am fully recovered from my marathon to start doing this.

Southern Man

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I was wondering the same thing. From what I've read in his article I think he said his example guy built a base of 50 mpw then added in the higher heart rate running during the official marathon training. So I think the key is to build your base at that lower heart rate which makes it very similar to MAF.

Experts, Please correct me of I've misinterpreted this.

Chris

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posted Oct-12-2006 01:14 PM            

In the past week I have experienced a noted decline in training pace and difficulty holding MAF HR. Hoping to see improvement I have taken a few day off, reduced daily mileage, focused on hydration and tried to catch up on sleep. For some reason my training pace remains nearly 1mpm slower than normal. Something is out of balance?

Has anyone experienced a similar situation?

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posted Oct-12-2006 03:23 PM               

I experienced a similar problem several weeks ago. I had just taken about 5 days off due to a sore achilles, and upon returning my pace was very slow. Looking back through my log, I ran on Miami Beach for 4 days and could not control my HR so I let it go much higher than any other time in the previous 5 months. That's the only explanation I was able to come up with. At this point I'm back to and below normal pace. Good luck!

Southern Man,

I was in a similar situation several months ago before I began low HR training. I didn't think it would help me because I already had a great aerobic base. Turns out I had a better base than most because I immediately started at about 9:00 miles. However, it was not nearly as strong as I believed because I'm now running about 7:40 with similar terrain and weather.

Due to an unusually low max HR, Maffetone's formula doesn't work for me so I went with Hadd's recommendation. Maffetone would have me at 144 plus the extra 5 I qualify for. I used Hadd's guidelines and settled on a 125 training HR (max 176). I had to use his guidelines for HR, but I've followed the Maffetone principles strictly for almost 5 months.

My next race (Saturday) is 100K so I wanted to put in as much mileage as possible without risking injury. I thought any faster running (higher HR training) may increase injury risk so I stayed away from some of Hadd's principles. However, I have studied his program thoroughly and am excited to give them a try at some point.

What do you think? I seem to remember that you and I are similar speed and age...I'd be interested to hear more about your techniques.

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posted Oct-12-2006 06:18 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth26:

l
The last few weeks have been very educational and….lets me say… humbling. I would like to add the following, I have increased my mileage in the last few weeks to 40+ miles per week…I seem to be taking the extra miles better than I did in August 06. I was around 32 mpw prior. I ran 14 miles last Sunday and only had to walk for a few times while going up some hills and to recover from a couple of HR spikes. I attribute the higher starting HR (2 to 3 bpm) to the cold/allergies. For some reason during this MAF test it was really hard to regulate my HR. My MAF Should be 135, 180-35-10, Is a small amount of drift ok? I shoot for 136/137 only because my MAF is so low/slow. Is this ok. Other than the cold/allergies thing, I’ve never felt better….Do these numbers look ok? Other thoughts?

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sounds like you're doing fine. If you were sick, that will raise your
heart rate by 10 beats or more. You haven't been going very long,
so your results are pretty typical after 6 weeks or so. Going a bit
over 180-age-10 a few beats should be fine.

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posted Oct-12-2006 06:34 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Southern Man:
I am interested in doing a period of base building using a heart-rate monitor and following the principles of the Hadd thread. I read the first three pages of this thread and the last three pages--seems to me like the Hadd principles are compatible with the MAF principles? Right? Hadd uses some higher aerobic runs, it seems like that is not the same as Maff principles?

I go into this with somewhat mixed feelings, I am not a great candidate to see big improvements since I don't race most of my runs and I have a pretty good relationship in my race times, but I did benefit from a long period of base building last year to help me get to that point. I view the HRM as a tool to help me do what I was doing last year even better. Waiting until I am fully recovered from my marathon to start doing this.

Southern Man

---

MAF is just maximum aerobic function, basically a term for
aerobic threshold, so it's not really an approach in itself. Both
Maffetone and Mark Allen propose a basebuilding period, where
you run strictly under MAF heart rate for a sufficient period of
time (with many criteria that I talk about in the FAQ for deciding
when you've had enough). After this period of time, one can
incorporate small quantities of higher intensity workouts (still
keeping the higher intensity stuff as just a few percent of
overall volume - Maffetone generally suggests that running
frequent races is sufficient to cover that). Hadd proposes
something very similar, but uses different formulas for
calculating the training heart rate. His formulas will provide
similar training heart rates for most people, but they will
be much more accurate than Maffetone's for people who
have very low max heart rates. Mark Allen proposes
a long period of basebuilding the first time (he went over
a year I believe), then periodizing between basebuilding
phases and race/speedwork phases (but speed work is
still a very small % of overall volume). The approach I've
followed has been to do no speedwork or intense training
runs at all, but I do run a lot of races, mostly long races.
That approach has been very successful for me, helping to
cut about an hour off of my marathon time. If you are already
well-conditioned aerobically, your training pace is quite a bit
less than your marathon race pace, you don't really hit the
wall in marathons, and you aren't overly reliant on carbs
in training runs and races, then you may not see anything
different about following such an approach. One way to tell
is when you strap on that heart rate monitor during your training
runs, you'll see where you are relative to Hadd's, Maffetone's
or Mark Allen's suggestions.

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posted Oct-12-2006 08:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:

Southern Man,

I was in a similar situation several months ago before I began low HR training. I didn't think it would help me because I already had a great aerobic base. Turns out I had a better base than most because I immediately started at about 9:00 miles. However, it was not nearly as strong as I believed because I'm now running about 7:40 with similar terrain and weather.

What do you think? I seem to remember that you and I are similar speed and age...I'd be interested to hear more about your techniques.

---

Background, I am 36 and been running for 2 years. I have done good base training w/ similar principles, but only monitoring by perceived effort. Like most, I think I have probably underestimated how hard I am running. This fall I ran 5m in 32:50, 10m (hilly) in 69:30, and marathon (downhill) in 3:16. Those times line up pretty well. I don't race frequently, or much at all at shorter distances, but I did run a 1 mile at my clubs summer track series for kicks and ran 5:47 and ran the 5k at that same track series in about 19:50-20:00 (the course is known to be short, how much is a matter of some debate).

I base trained all last winter and spring, then followed the Pfitzinger 18 week, up to 70 mpw plan for my marathon, with a few modifications to make the mileage a little higher. I'm sure I still have some good aerobic benefits yet to come, as I've only been running two years. I've seen the people w/ the most dramatic benefits be those who have a poor assocaiation of race times and people who tend to race all their training runs.

I've averaged just over 60 mpw this year, w/ peak weeks just over 80. I would like to increase my weekly average to about 80 mpw next year, with peak weeks being over 100. I also think I have a low maxHR. I did a volition graded exercise test last spring and only hit 180, though it may be a few beats higher. My racing goals begin and end with seeing how fast I can run a marathon.

Southern Man

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posted Oct-12-2006 08:37 PM               

With that information I would probably use a training HR of about 130 for your base building. Everybody has a different approach in getting to and maintaining their training HR, but the most important is that you do not go over that number. My rate is 125 and most runs average 122-124. The pace you can run at 130 will give you a good indication of your current aerobic base.

The biggest question is when is your next marathon? Do you have time to commit 16+weeks to pure aerobic base building followed by some higher HR work (ala Hadd)?

I look forward to hearing your progress...keep us updated and good luck!

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posted Oct-12-2006 08:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Southern,

The biggest question is when is your next marathon? Do you have time to commit 16+weeks to pure aerobic base building followed by some higher HR work (ala Hadd)?

I look forward to hearing your progress...keep us updated and good luck!

---

All I've got is time. I won't race another marathon before next fall.

Southern Man

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posted Oct-13-2006 04:22 PM            

I was running 15+ min. miles. I had to walk probably 4 - 6 of those minutes. It was maddening.

This is the first time I have actually ran enough to call myself a "runner." My enthusiasm is at an alltime high, but I can't help but feel that my gains are still tentative to mess with.

I'm still fascinated by the LHR training approach. If I ever run a marathon, I will absolutely do a 12 week base training program. A year from now (at least if I don't get sick) I'll be able to add 10 bpm to my MAF. And, while most of my fitness gains will be anaerobic, there will be <i>some</i> aerobic gains. I probably won't have to run a mile in 15 minutes. Hopefully at least.

Anyway, thanks again for the info. I'll still follow the thread and ask questions from time to time.

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posted Oct-13-2006 07:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by dag2000:
Thanks for the replies. For better or worse, I have decided to postpone working on my aerobic system until I've been running at least one year (which would be April 2007).

I was running 15+ min. miles. I had to walk probably 4 - 6 of those minutes. It was maddening.

This is the first time I have actually ran enough to call myself a "runner." My enthusiasm is at an alltime high, but I can't help but feel that my gains are still tentative to mess with.

I'm still fascinated by the LHR training approach. If I ever run a marathon, I will absolutely do a 12 week base training program. A year from now (at least if I don't get sick) I'll be able to add 10 bpm to my MAF. And, while most of my fitness gains will be anaerobic, there will be <i>some</i> aerobic gains. I probably won't have to run a mile in 15 minutes. Hopefully at least.

Anyway, thanks again for the info. I'll still follow the thread and ask questions from time to time.

---

Just a final thought. If you are running 15:00 miles and having to walk half the time, then that is what you should be doing. You are not ready for running any longer or faster than that. You are out of shape and have no aerobic fitness. You should not put off working on your aerobic system until later. You are welcoming the greater possibility of injury. Do not let your impatience kill it all for you. There I said it. Enjoy your "fast" miles. I truly hope it works for you. Go in peace, health, and love.

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posted Oct-14-2006 07:53 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by dag2000:
Thanks for the replies. For better or worse, I have decided to postpone working on my aerobic system until I've been running at least one year (which would be April 2007).

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Well, you'll be working your aerobic system to some degree as long as you're running

I think getting to maff is psychologically easier if you can still "run" when at MAF. By happenstance, I worked my way from high heart rates to low, starting w/o a HRM, then Pfitz zones, then deciding to do everything <75% Max (Pfitz recovery zone), and finally below MAF (~73% Max for me). Even if you're not maffing, I wouldn't give up on the heart rate monitor. Whatever you do, make sure you have some true recovery days. The HRM is a good way to ensure you're doing this.

Good luck!
Greg

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posted Oct-14-2006 03:44 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dag2000:
Thanks for the replies. For better or worse, I have decided to postpone working on my aerobic system until I've been running at least one year (which would be April 2007).

I was running 15+ min. miles. I had to walk probably 4 - 6 of those minutes. It was maddening.

This is the first time I have actually ran enough to call myself a "runner." My enthusiasm is at an alltime high, but I can't help but feel that my gains are still tentative to mess with.

I'm still fascinated by the LHR training approach. If I ever run a marathon, I will absolutely do a 12 week base training program. A year from now (at least if I don't get sick) I'll be able to add 10 bpm to my MAF. And, while most of my fitness gains will be anaerobic, there will be <i>some</i> aerobic gains. I probably won't have to run a mile in 15 minutes. Hopefully at least.

Anyway, thanks again for the info. I'll still follow the thread and ask questions from time to time.

---

No, don't give up on your aerobic building!!! You would only have to slower your pace all over again if you started at another time, so sick to it!!!!

I think I told you that when I started I was a 14 min.mile, and sometimes that was even slower when the heat was high, humidity high, and hills were involved. Just don't throw the towel in.

You will see paces increase and strength build, and weight change within weeks!! Just stick to it! This is probably the best time of year to begin....cooler (depends where you live), and all the winter months of Maffetone running will prepare you for the spring!! You can do it!

There were MANY times I wanted to stop....but I felt good, so I stuck with it. I noticed changes within one month.

I didn't read the previous pages of posts to your questions so I hope I'm not draining you with more stuff.

Just stick with it!!

AND....keep us posted

[This message has been edited by Boston124 (edited Oct-15-2006).]

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posted Oct-14-2006 05:10 PM            

This is probably the best time of year to begin....cooler (depends where you live), and all winter months of Maffetone running will prepare you for the spring!!

I couldn't agree more. I'm in TX and have seen a noticeable increase in pace in the last month or so.

After 3 months of strict MAF running I ran my first 5k (hilly) in Sept: 24:43 with an average HR of 164. Today I ran my first 10k (flat) in 49:00 with an average HR of 161. My pace and HR was steady and in control throughout the entire race even with a negative split.

MAF running isn't for everyone but I've seen improvements every month since I began, mileage and pace.

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posted Oct-15-2006 09:07 AM               

I'm new to this website and I have enjoyed reading the 50 pages of MAF! I've been MAFing off and on for 10 years. Everytime I break away from it and do my on thing my times get worse. Now I've returned to MAF to get ready for a 50k trail run. One thing I noticed in the discussions (and maybe I missed it) was the lack of talk over diet and how it relates to MAF. The other thing I noticed was the fitness test every 3 weeks that Maffetone recommends. I think both are crucial for continued aerobic development. If anyone would care to discuss these items let me know.

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posted Oct-15-2006 10:01 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by 11runhard:
Hello all,

I'm new to this website and I have enjoyed reading the 50 pages of MAF! I've been MAFing off and on for 10 years. Everytime I break away from it and do my on thing my times get worse. Now I've returned to MAF to get ready for a 50k trail run. One thing I noticed in the discussions (and maybe I missed it) was the lack of talk over diet and how it relates to MAF. The other thing I noticed was the fitness test every 3 weeks that Maffetone recommends. I think both are crucial for continued aerobic development. If anyone would care to discuss these items let me know.

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11RUNHARD,

Diet is probably one crucial element that I don't adhere to that well when base building and incorporating Maff. It would probably help to develop my fat burning better, but I do eat cookies, candy and junk....usually whenever I want!! I know, it's NOT good. I don't eat lots of this stuff, but I do have some once-in-awhile. I do eat good foods as well, I promise!

I'm not good at the Maff tests. I don't do them every three weeks. I do them when I remember....sometimes two months will go by and then I'll do them. I'm finding that doing the Maff tests on the treadmill are better (for me). It's where I can get more reliable information....the treadmill is flat, environment conditions are the same.

How about you??

[This message has been edited by Boston124 (edited Oct-15-2006).]

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posted Oct-15-2006 10:21 AM               

I good about the fitness tests. They encourage me when I get faster at the same heart rate. If they slow I can always go back and see what might have slowed me down. I can also predict where I'm at with any given race distance. Example: before a marathon I did a 3 mile MAF test on the track and averaged 6:22. I raced the marathon at that pace. I've done this several times and it comes out pretty close.

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posted Oct-15-2006 10:30 AM               

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posted Oct-15-2006 02:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
I count
on Jimmy to promote good eating habits.

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Rule #1 Don't miss your mouth.

Rule #2 Zone Bars can break your teeth if you keep them cold--don't.

Rule #3 GU should not be used for lubrication during mating.

Rule #4 Don't think Parisians will like you any better if you tell them you eat a lot of French toast. In fact, they'll add a little condescending snicker into the mix. Don't tell them you eat French toast. Lie and tell them you eat crepes covered in heavy cream, butter and cheese.

Rule #5 Hoard the after-race food after the marthon, and leave none for the people who run 5 hours or more. That's what they get!

Rule #6 Throw your spouse a bone once in awhile and actually eat something other than pasta.

Rule #7 Don't try the bird-like regurgitation method to revive a severely bonked running partner. They'll bonk you.

--Jimmy

P.S. Forgive me. Comedy is a journey.

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My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

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posted Oct-15-2006 02:49 PM               

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posted Oct-15-2006 03:34 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by sputteringalong:
I have been maffing since Mid Jan have about 562 miles. I am struck. Was 60 when I started, Maff limit 120, I should have reduced Maff number for sick & injury, didn't. I am pleased with the injury free mileage. Knowing I should have gone to 110, I feel good about my progress. When someone complains about how slow you can physically run, I have spent months at 24 mpm. I am now now running in the 30+ mi/wk. running at 18-20 mpm. Over time I am stronger as I run, and know the times will come down, but what to do with a weekly long run. Is a weekly long run of 9 miles or more in the cards when it takes three hours for 9 miles. I have run as long as 13 miles, but is it doing any good, it doesn't seem to do any harm. What are the suggestions to speed up my pace.

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That's a lot of mileage, plenty to establish a base! Try some
different forms of stimulation - take one of your long runs a week
and pick it up to a challenging pace for the last 3 or 4 miles.
Run a 5k or 10k race here and there and open it up. It's time
now to set a few sparks, especially if your pace is not continuing
to improve. As long as you keep the more aggressive stuff to
a small percentage of your volume, you shouldn't have any problems.

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posted Oct-15-2006 03:36 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Rule #1 Don't miss your mouth.

Rule #2 Zone Bars can break your teeth if you keep them cold--don't.

Rule #3 GU should not be used for lubrication during mating.

... and more!

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See, now that's what I'm talking about!

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posted Oct-15-2006 04:54 PM               

Actually the Strawberry Slam from E-gel works pretty good for mating purposes!

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posted Oct-15-2006 05:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by 11runhard:
Rule #3 GU should not be used for lubrication during mating.

Actually the Strawberry Slam from E-gel works pretty good for mating purposes!

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That was a typo. I meant SELF-mating.

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posted Oct-15-2006 07:14 PM               

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posted Oct-15-2006 08:34 PM               

That is just wrong.

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