posted Mar-24-2006 09:39 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by GForce1:
Thanks again for your quick and helpful responses. I’d really like to try the treadmill but don’t have access to one yet. I could drive to a track and run there on weekends but during the week would meaning rising even earlier. Jesse, would I expect, with the treadmill, to just get a baseline, because I could get that at the track running it everyday for a week, or would you expect I’d show a little improvement in as little as two weeks?

As far as a race goes, I can run a couple training loops I’ve run many times over the years at top speed or run a mile at the dirt track down the road, but I don’t think it will be very fast. Today I ran at 8:21 pace and had my heart rate up to 174 by the end of the run. I used to run at least a minute faster with less effort not too long ago and maybe even 1:30 faster.

Also, I’ve noticed something that probably has no bearing on this discussion, but after I ran faster the past couple days, I felt the endorphins kick in afterwards. I felt really calm. I haven’t felt this way since I started doing MAF and I miss that feeling. Is this to be expected?

---

As far as the track goes, the primary purpose would be to look at
a trend over several days that is completely unbiased by other
factors that affect pace at a given heart rate. Of course, it would
be a bonus if you actually see improvement over those days as
well. Now, for your other questions - yes, you have definitely been
missing the runner's high. I lost it for about 4 months until it returned.
Certainly another short-term negative side effect.

Just another note - if you are trying this mainly to try to increase
mileage without injury, that's probably a good reason. However, it's
definitely not the most efficient way to improve at the 5k race (I
carved maybe 40 seconds off of my 5k time - perhaps more if I
raced a 5k today). Also, even 30 miles a week is quite light to
see a lot significant improvements. Some have been very successful
even at that low mileage, but it would probably be a really slow process
for many. I've been doing an immense amount of volume - running,
biking, and swimming. I see fairly significant pace improvements
pretty much every week nowadays. It was a long time and a lot of
patience getting there, though.

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posted Mar-24-2006 09:57 PM               

GForce1,
This could be part of your problem. I train at 10:30-11 at MAF+5 on very small hills. I run my MAF tests at 10 on a flat course.

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posted Mar-24-2006 10:06 PM            

Even John Parker admits to a little cheating like that. Now, I'm in North Texas, so we don't have the hills that some of you might see.

Today, I ran 6 miles. My overall pace was 9:41. I need to go back to my old logs (2003, I think) and see what I was doing then as a comparison. I do know that I'm a good 15-20 pounds heavier.

The ironic thing is that I have broken down and bought myself an early Father's Day gift; a Cardiosport Xtreme HRM. I took the old Timex out figuring that I could get a smart 4-5 miles in before it acted up. Wouldn't you know it behaved today.

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posted Mar-25-2006 06:19 AM               

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posted Mar-25-2006 06:34 AM               

im currently 17 and i have been on this programme for 3 weeks, adding +5 maf for my younger age and since i have been running rather frequently already. i was doing mainly tempo runs before i started this training.

in the first week i was running at a pace of 13min mile and i was going for about 34 minutes before i felt a little tired but went on till 37 minutes. after 3 weeks of this training 3 times a week i can currently run 42 minutes at a 11min mile pace VERY comfortably all slightly under maf pace.

thanks a lot jesse, i would be stuck at that plateau if it wasnt for this

[This message has been edited by d3finition (edited Mar-25-2006).]

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posted Mar-25-2006 05:11 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
after suffering from shin splint i decided to take up this maf programme and it has improved my fitness by leaps and bounds.

im currently 17 and i have been on this programme for 3 weeks, adding +5 maf for my younger age and since i have been running rather frequently already. i was doing mainly tempo runs before i started this training.

in the first week i was running at a pace of 13min mile and i was going for about 34 minutes before i felt a little tired but went on till 37 minutes. after 3 weeks of this training 3 times a week i can currently run 42 minutes at a 11min mile pace VERY comfortably all slightly under maf pace.

thanks a lot jesse, i would be stuck at that plateau if it wasnt for this

[This message has been edited by d3finition (edited Mar-25-2006).]

---

Hey that's good news - it will be very interesting to see the data points
for a 17 year old. Keep posting.

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posted Mar-25-2006 05:14 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by roy c:
Well I tried again today on a 9 miler same course just longer with the gentle hills.
This is how it went:-Laps AHR 1 - 122, 2 -133, 3 - 131, 4 - 131, 5 - 132, 6 - 134, 7 - 133, 8 - 132, 9 - 132
Overall AHR was 131pace 13:39 compared to yesterdays 6 miler AHR 129 pace 13:26
Now I don't expect decreases yet and understand small rises due to run distance, temp etc. MAF for me is 132, in fact I suppose it could be slower, the pace I mean, considering I have just started. I might try a 10 miler tomorrow if I have time..
Roy

---

Ok, sounds good. As a general rule of thumb, don't get too fixated
on what happens on a daily basis (it doesn't sound like you are -
it's just worth mentioning). See how things go at around 3 week
intervals. You definitely just want to make sure that you don't
get on a slope of continuous negative progress without trying to
assess what's going on. As you stretch out your distance as well,
you will certainly see some overall pace reductions, which is also
why it's good (if possible) to track pace and HRavg at each mile.

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posted Mar-26-2006 10:12 AM               

Friday I ran my long run, 12 miles in 1 hour 49mins = 9:05/mile. Average heart rate was amazingly low - 132. I am 30 years old. It felt GREAT! I still have 6 weeks to train before this years 25k.

My point is that all of this base building Maff stuff is working far better than I had imagined. I just wanted to thank Jesse and others for all of the time spent researching and posting for all of our benefit.

Cory

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posted Mar-26-2006 03:50 PM            

Last year 10k 1:16:32

Today 10K 58:21 Pace if using 10k 9:23

Pace using total distance I covered 6.44 miles 9:05 minutes per mile.

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posted Mar-26-2006 06:37 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
This stuff freaking works. Average Maf pace last week 12:30 per mile.

Last year 10k 1:16:32

Today 10K 58:21 Pace if using 10k 9:23

Pace using total distance I covered 6.44 miles 9:05 minutes per mile.

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Congratulations! Keep up the good work.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

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posted Mar-26-2006 07:37 PM               

After eating like a slop-starved hog for 3 days, I felt great by Saturday (yesterday). I ran 15 miles. I felt so good after that, that I decided to go down to Bristol, RI for a 10k. I've been running everything under MAF since November, and had in the back of my mind that I'd get in 7 miles before the race under MAF, then run the race at MAF and let it drift up a bit to get in some other part of my aerobic zone.

I got the 7 miles in--heart rate was up as my legs hadn't recovered from the 15 miles just 18 hours earlier. The race started, and being on tired legs, and running at about 138 bpm (MAF 141), the rest of the field instantly left me in the dust. I realized that I'd fall way too far behind, so I started to pick it up. I figured I had 16 weeks under my belt, and perhaps it was time to wake my fast-twitchers up a bit. After finishing the first mile in 9:49 and a 149 HR, I decided to make it a lactate threshold run (160-178 bpm), and averaged 8:39 for the last 5.2 miles. Heart rate averaged 167 and climbed to 178 the last mile (8:31).

My legs felt a tad sluggish in terms of speed--it felt strange to be running fast. Endurance was good. My breath was conversational the whole time. I'm not sure how fast I can run a 10k just yet, as I usually run them much harder in terms of exertion. Today sort of felt like a mental health day. It was good to add a little variety for a few miles, and also to get past the last few weeks. I also look forward to the coming race season.

I was very surprised I was able to run 15 yesterday afternoon and 13 (6 hard) this morning without a problem--all within 20 hours. I'd never done that before. Using this method is not only building endurance, but it is acting as a workshop for stretching my limits of what I think is possible for me.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

My Running World
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posted Mar-26-2006 09:51 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

I was very surprised I was able to run 15 yesterday afternoon and 13 (6 hard) this morning without a problem--all within 20 hours. I'd never done that before. Using this method is not only building endurance, but it is acting as a workshop for stretching my limits of what I think is possible for me.

---

For some reason I think I know what you mean. Yesterday, I ran
my 4th marathon(or more) in the past 6 weeks, the HAT run 50k.
I can honestly say it was the most brutal, grueling race I have ever
done, much harder than the 2 50 milers. And with no mile markers
and very poor GPS coverage, it made it all the more interesting.
All big ups and big downs on mostly ratty trails. What a pounding,
not to include my two face-plants. (I did learn that I have not put in
the needed training mileage on the trails this year!)
But did that stop me? No, I still
needed to get my Sunday 20 miler in, albeit quite slowly. I could
barely get my heart rate over 139 today. It's hard to believe that
2 years ago, my body could barely take 50-60 miles per week of
running alone. It just goes to show how much of your body's
capacity you can leave on the training course. Now my marathons
are much lower level of effort than my training runs were back
then, at a much faster pace. I hope everyone else here gets to
the same point.

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posted Mar-27-2006 06:23 AM               

i just increased my milage from 45min per session at 11 min mile to to 50 min at 11 min mile. im doing this 3 times a week. im currently wondering if i should increase frenquency per week to say 4 times a week or should i just increase my milage per run. just curious on which will benefit my aerobic training more. currently after my 50 min runs my legs get a little more sore than normal and i reckon i need at least 2 days break (meaning running again on wednesday if i ran on monday) but i think i might be able to do 4 times a week if i do a 40 to 45 minute run.

although running more times a week will effectively increase my mpw by a little more (from 13.6 mpw to 16 mpw) but running longer per session should effective increase my "endurance per session" and also leg strength which i feel i need to build up since this is only my 4th week into this training.

any advice?

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posted Mar-27-2006 09:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
should i increase frequency per week or increase milage per run??

i just increased my milage from 45min per session at 11 min mile to to 50 min at 11 min mile. im doing this 3 times a week. im currently wondering if i should increase frenquency per week to say 4 times a week or should i just increase my milage per run. just curious on which will benefit my aerobic training more. currently after my 50 min runs my legs get a little more sore than normal and i reckon i need at least 2 days break (meaning running again on wednesday if i ran on monday) but i think i might be able to do 4 times a week if i do a 40 to 45 minute run.

although running more times a week will effectively increase my mpw by a little more (from 13.6 mpw to 16 mpw) but running longer per session should effective increase my "endurance per session" and also leg strength which i feel i need to build up since this is only my 4th week into this training.

any advice?

---

IMO, you're better of adding a 1 or 2 additional days of easy runs at this point. Keep them shorter than your other days. After you settle into that routine, you should start turning one of your runs into a long run. You want to maintain some variation in your runs day to day, i.e. don't run 50min everyday. For example, if you add 1 and then 2 days for up to 5days per week, then make two days 60min and the other 3 30min. eventually start to extend one of the 1hr runs (5-10min at a shot) out to 90m-2h. that'll be your long run. once your past 90min on the long run, your can extend your short days a little. As a guideline, your long run will eventually be 2-3 times longer than your typical short day. that is not a hard and fast rule, just something to keep in mind if you feel things are out of balance.

--jm

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posted Mar-27-2006 10:31 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
should i increase frequency per week or increase milage per run??

i just increased my milage from 45min per session at 11 min mile to to 50 min at 11 min mile. im doing this 3 times a week. im currently wondering if i should increase frenquency per week to say 4 times a week or should i just increase my milage per run. just curious on which will benefit my aerobic training more. currently after my 50 min runs my legs get a little more sore than normal and i reckon i need at least 2 days break (meaning running again on wednesday if i ran on monday) but i think i might be able to do 4 times a week if i do a 40 to 45 minute run.

although running more times a week will effectively increase my mpw by a little more (from 13.6 mpw to 16 mpw) but running longer per session should effective increase my "endurance per session" and also leg strength which i feel i need to build up since this is only my 4th week into this training.

any advice?

---

It all depends what your dream is. What is it that you want?
Let your vision lead you. You'll be surprised at what you can do.
If more mileage is necessary to manifesting your dream, then it comes down to what you are willing to do. Solidify your vision, weigh your priorities, and do what you need to do. Never lose touch with how your body feels. If you go more, take extra rest when you need it. Good luck.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

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posted Mar-28-2006 08:02 PM            

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posted Mar-28-2006 08:19 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
I have been a Maffing it for the past 12 weeks. My mileage has gone from 20 to 40+ per week. Of the 350+ miles I have run during this period almost 85% has been done on a treadmill. I am now able to run 9 miles at a 12 min pace with my heart rate under MAF. Over the past 16 months I have done two marathons and hit the wall each time. My last marathon was completed in 03:56 (PR). My best 5K is 21:28. About six weeks prior to that marathon I did a 01:43 half marathon. This is my question. Do you think that doing a half marathon in April will set my Maffing back? I need to do it in 01:45:59 to earn a preferred start at the Chicago Marathon. Since the half is on April 15th should I go out and do some speed work or should I just stay Maffing? Or should I throw in a few strides after my Maffing? Please do not tell me that doing a 01:45:59 half marathon is not possible. I just want advice on how a fellow Maffer would approach their training for the half.
TIA, kc

---

I don't think doing the half marathon will have any negative affect
on your progress - you've put in significant aerobic mileage and it's
time to remind yourself what it feels like to open up a bit. There's
not too much speedwork you can do at this point for a race two weeks
away, but you can squeeze in one tempo run (warmup 2-3 miles below
MAF, say 5 miles of tempo pace, then cool down 2 miles below MAF)
and possibly a "fast finish" long run, if you want. I don't believe either
are critical or will have a significant effect, other than psychological
for a race on tax day. I would, however, suggest that you get in most
of the rest of your runs on the road, so that you don't jump right in
without recent feeling for road running. Has your pace below MAF
improved since you started?

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posted Mar-29-2006 07:41 AM            

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posted Mar-29-2006 06:11 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by kcy1998:
LeitnerJ,
My pace has improved. Not at the rate I had desired. My first 4 mile run, on the treadmill, was at an average pace of 14:30 per mile. The other day I ran 9 miles at an average pace of 11:59 per mile. The first eight were at a 12:00 pace. Mile 9 was at a 11:47 pace. I am going to try and do a 4 mile test later today at a 11:30 pace. Hopefully the test will prove positive. After my last two marathons and how I was really out of it at the end I figured it was time to try something else. Hopefully this will be the magic key.
kc

---

Although you've got a bit of a ways to go before you "catch up" to your
previous high HR speeds (which were not holding out throughout the
marathon distance), that's pretty darn good progress. Just keep in mind
that this approach is strategic, rather than tactical, providing long-term
benefits (and ambiguity in the short-term). Your half marathon will be
a very interesting test. Your race times are very similar to where mine
were before I started this. Hopefully you'll see similar eventual results.
I think my training paces became "enjoyable" after about 4 months or
so.

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posted Mar-31-2006 07:52 AM               

first lap: 1:55
second lap: 1:53
third lap: 2:05
fourth lap: 2:12

and this is considering that after the 2nd lap i was panting rather hard and after the 3rd lap i thought i couldnt go on anymore. my leg muscles was feeling a lot of fatigue. the funny thing is that i feel that i am improving a lot on maf training. i can run a 55 minute run at a 11 min mile 3 times a week comfortably. and this is a big improvement from my 13 min mile 3 times a week for 35 minutes after 1 month. i wonder if this is common (for runners doing the maf training to be weak in anaerobic strength). kinda shaken by these interval results.

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posted Mar-31-2006 08:41 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
i did a (4x400) interval training for physical education lessons in school today, with a 1 min break in between. (mainly out of curiousity) and my timings really sucked very bad. (considering i have a fitness test coming up and i need to run at least sub 13 minutes for 2.4km)

first lap: 1:55
second lap: 1:53
third lap: 2:05
fourth lap: 2:12

and this is considering that after the 2nd lap i was panting rather hard and after the 3rd lap i thought i couldnt go on anymore. my leg muscles was feeling a lot of fatigue. the funny thing is that i feel that i am improving a lot on maf training. i can run a 55 minute run at a 11 min mile 3 times a week comfortably. and this is a big improvement from my 13 min mile 3 times a week for 35 minutes after 1 month. i wonder if this is common (for runners doing the maf training to be weak in anaerobic strength). kinda shaken by these interval results.

---

your anaerobic capacity will deteriorate quite a bit for a while, but
eventually your aerobic capacity will make up for some of it, at
least for distances 400 and above. It may be a while, however.

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posted Mar-31-2006 11:34 AM            

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posted Mar-31-2006 06:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Miamirunner:
I have a question about HR training. I've ben training for the past 4 weeks using the John Parker book. I'm a 34 year old female and My max HR per his formula was 193. (disclaimer, I never took the track test or the hill test as he prescribes to get the 'accurate' max HR). That means my HR at 70% which is what de says to run most of your runs at or under is 135. According to Maffetone's 180 formula my max aerobic heart rate is 146. This means I'll be going from a 12:00 pace to a 10:00 to 10:30. For me that's great because it was really hard to keep my HR at 135 especially since it's always in the 80's here with high humidity. I actually had a really easy run Tuesday night and had to speed up to get to 135 because we had a cool front and the temps were in the 60's.So to me the 146 seems like it'll be WAY too easy. I can run at a 10:00 pace all day long. In fact that's what I was doing all along when marathon training. So how do I know that I should run at this 146 HR...if I've been running at that anyway? I guess I'm confused!

---

So your concern is that the 146 number is too high, if I'm reading
you correctly. The only way the number will be too high is if your
max heart rate is very low. (If you're very concerned, you should
test yourself.) If you already have a very solid aerobic
fitness (which could be the case if you've been running a lot of
mileage aerobically), then it may actually be challenging for you
to keep up the MAF pace for all of your runs. Many of the fittest
runners around here probably run half of the their mileage, if not
more, at less than (or far less than) the MAF heart rate. At times
for myself nowadays, I have difficulty keeping at MAF, e.g., on
the treadmill in many cases I have to set it at a much faster
pace than I want just to keep within a few beats of MAF. It's not
something I would do every day as I would get burned out. In Mark
Allen's guidelines, he says to put in your mileage during basebuilding
phase at between 80% and 100% of MAF, so there's almost no way
to go too low, as long as you're still running. The key element is to
track your progress (your pace around MAF heart rate) every few
weeks and make sure it's getting faster. If it's not, then it's an
indication that you have plateaued and you'll have to add some more
aggressive runs into the mix. How many miles are you putting in
each week?

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Mar-31-2006).]

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posted Mar-31-2006 06:27 PM            

I ran a 10k last Sunday, and ran at a 9:25 pace for the official distance 9:05 pace for the distance actually ran. ( Yes I didn't take the best line as I was passing people.)

I ran most of the race at 40 beats above Maf, and never felt tired, never felt like walking. Granted its only 1/4 of a marathon, but thought this might give you some hope.

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posted Mar-31-2006 07:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Miamirunner:
I have a question about HR training. I've ben training for the past 4 weeks using the John Parker book. I'm a 34 year old female and My max HR per his formula was 193. (disclaimer, I never took the track test or the hill test as he prescribes to get the 'accurate' max HR). That means my HR at 70% which is what de says to run most of your runs at or under is 135. According to Maffetone's 180 formula my max aerobic heart rate is 146.

---

I have John Parker's book. One thing that is very confusing about it is that when he says less than 70% of Max HR he means what would usually be called 70% of Heart rate reserve on this forum. On page 6 of my copy he says

quote:

---

Here's the formula for figuring your Recovery Ceiling (70% of your Max):

(MAX - Resting HR) X .70 + (Resting HR)

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If your resting heart rate is say 50 then (193-50)*.7 + 50 = 150.

As Jesse will surely point out :-) one problem with heart rate reserve is that the target heart rate goes higher the worse shape you are in, since that corresponds to a higher resting heart rate.

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