posted Oct-01-2006 05:37 PM               

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posted Oct-01-2006 05:39 PM            

I have PF (mild right now, and I've been lazy about treating it until is 100% gone) and if you haven't already, I would try a night splint.

I use The Sock (www.thesock.com). It can take a bit of getting used to when sleeping, but it really helped my PF. Moreso than stretching, frozen ice bottles, tennis balls, etc.

And no I don't have any affiliation with that company. I know a few others in the Med Tent have had good luck with this as well.

Oh, you mentioned the McMillian runnin calculator as well...how ironic. I ran a 5K about 3 weeks ago (my 2nd timed ever) and ran 23:44 on a pretty tough course. Then yesterday I ran my first 10K race ever and ran 49:18, which is *exactly* what McMillian predicted for a 10K. How odd/lucky is that?

The 10K course was pretty tough as well...almost no flat terrain. I won't know what to do when I run a flat race.

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posted Oct-01-2006 08:19 PM            

I use the sock and it's the single most effective thing I've done so far. I wear it every night and it always feels like I'm just good enough to run the next day. I don't think I would have made it this far without it. You're right on getting used to it when sleeping though. For a while I would wear it for two or three days and then give up from being sleep deprived. Finally I gutted it out for 4 or 5 days and now I don't notice it anymore. I'm also not affiliated with the company :-)

I switched my work shoes to Rockports but would wear running shoes if they'd let me! The last couple of days I've started to stick my foot in a bucket of ice water after my weekday runs and I think that helps. (I take an ice bath after a long run.) One thing I haven't done consistently enough is stretching and I haven't tried the strength exercises I've read about (picking up marbles, toe taps, etc.) I'll also have to try some arch supports and the tape.

Thanks,
Greg

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posted Oct-01-2006 08:59 PM               

I had horrible PF years ago and went through several treatments with no success. Eventually a physician friend of a friend recommended buying heel cups from Target and wearing them in whatever shoes I have on. Also recommended never going without shoes unless sleeping. In three weeks my pain was gone and have felt none since. If nothing else, it's a cheap alternative to try if nothing else works. Good luck!

Adam

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posted Oct-03-2006 12:43 PM               

I ran a 8k this morning the first 4k were nice and simple no problems but at just after the 4k mark my HR went crazy from my 144 to 150 and would not go down unless i stopped or walked for a longer than normal period.

yesterday was Yom Kippur (jewish fast day) where i did not drink or eat for 25 hours BUT i rehydrated last night

The clocks have changed here therefore I ran an hour later could these factors be the cause of my erratic HR and what do I do in such circumstances ignore the HR or just walk :-(

TIA

By the way those with PF must strech the soleus not just the gastrocnemius

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posted Oct-03-2006 05:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by footsie:
HELP!!!!

I ran a 8k this morning the first 4k were nice and simple no problems but at just after the 4k mark my HR went crazy from my 144 to 150 and would not go down unless i stopped or walked for a longer than normal period.

yesterday was Yom Kippur (jewish fast day) where i did not drink or eat for 25 hours BUT i rehydrated last night

The clocks have changed here therefore I ran an hour later could these factors be the cause of my erratic HR and what do I do in such circumstances ignore the HR or just walk :-(

TIA

By the way those with PF must strech the soleus not just the gastrocnemius

---

I'm not sure what you mean when you say your heart rate was "erratic." It sounds like it just went above MAFF and you couldn't keep it below without walking. If that's the case, I'd see how you do the next time you run. Fasting for a day is a major stress. I'd expect your heart rate to be higher.

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posted Oct-03-2006 06:34 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by footsie:
HELP!!!!

I ran a 8k this morning the first 4k were nice and simple no problems but at just after the 4k mark my HR went crazy from my 144 to 150 and would not go down unless i stopped or walked for a longer than normal period.

---

144 to 150 doesn't sound erratic to me. 140 to 185, then back to
170 is erratic. I agree with Greg. See what happens next run.
Don't try to make evaluations after putting your body through
unusual circumstances. At least don't expect to make sense of
what you see.

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posted Oct-04-2006 06:03 PM            

the reason i ask is that i have a 10k scheduled for oct. 14 (just under 2 weeks away). i ran at or below maf for 3 months. in that time i've gone from 15 - 20 mpw to 25 - 30. this week might be my first week over 30. in the last month i've added fast finishes and now keep the average hr for the entire run below maf.

this will be my first 10k. i'm looking at it as pacing practice as much as a race. part of me wants to continue to build my mpw but the main reason i started doing maf running was because i don't have the best knees and don't want to make matters worse. thanks in advance for the advice and info.

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posted Oct-04-2006 06:13 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by streeetch:
i have a taper question and i know it will be an "individual" thing but i was hoping to get some of the more experienced maf runners advise before i start trying different things. by doing all low hr running, does that decrease the need for an extended taper before races? 10k, half, full, etc.

the reason i ask is that i have a 10k scheduled for oct. 14 (just under 2 weeks away). i ran at or below maf for 3 months. in that time i've gone from 15 - 20 mpw to 25 - 30. this week might be my first week over 30. in the last month i've added fast finishes and now keep the average hr for the entire run below maf.

this will be my first 10k. i'm looking at it as pacing practice as much as a race. part of me wants to continue to build my mpw but the main reason i started doing maf running was because i don't have the best knees and don't want to make matters worse. thanks in advance for the advice and info.

---

I can't make a general recommendation but I can tell you what
I do. I don't really taper at all for any races. I may slightly reduce
the mileage for a few days before but in many cases I don't even
do that. For two of my marathons this year, I ran a 20 miler the
day before. I certainly wouldn't do anything intense in the days
before the race other than a short burst or two.

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posted Oct-05-2006 03:20 PM               

by the way it was the clock change that killed me I ran today 16km (back week ) at the same pace that used to knock me out for the whole day but I finished and felt like i could do it again

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posted Oct-05-2006 06:12 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by footsie:
nother question for you guys i am currently at 25 km long run with next week being 28km but i have been invited to do a 32km fun run on sunday to do or not to do that is the question i will do the run strictly at maff

by the way it was the clock change that killed me I ran today 16km (back week ) at the same pace that used to knock me out for the whole day but I finished and felt like i could do it again

---

There's not much difference between 28k and 32k.

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posted Oct-05-2006 10:56 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by footsie:
nother question for you guys i am currently at 25 km long run with next week being 28km but i have been invited to do a 32km fun run on sunday to do or not to do that is the question i will do the run strictly at maff

by the way it was the clock change that killed me I ran today 16km (back week ) at the same pace that used to knock me out for the whole day but I finished and felt like i could do it again

---

I'm such an American. The whole time I'm reading this I'm going "What's 25k now? Let's see, 5k is 3 miles about, and 5 goes into 25 five times, which makes it about 15 miles, maybe less....Oh, damn, now what's 32k? That's another 5k plus 2 k, which is like 18 miles and change. So, I guess Footsie has a dilemma between doing a 15 mile medium long run and an 18.something mile long run. Oh, damn what's with the 16k? Why bother with another k? Wait that was 15 miles, not k. It was 25 k, which was 15 miles, and 32k, which was 18 miles. 16 k would be 3 5k's plus 1 k, or about 9 miles and change. So how did the 16k, or 9 miles, relate to the 32k that Footsie had a dilemma about?"

My answer: "Don't worry about it Footsie, whatever you choose, everything will be o-K-K-K-K-K-K-K-K-K-K-K-K-K!"

Whew. Get me a ruler. Ah, a sweet foot. I think I'll measure things...it's 22 feet from my computer to the fridge....8 feet to the bathroom....and my EBay bought replica of Gene Simmon's tongue is half a foot...

--Jimmy

Current Marathon Training
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MAF training source:
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posted Oct-06-2006 02:17 AM            

1) I run 3 days/wk (M, W, F) about 3 miles/day. I do about 5-10 of warm up wawlking and cool down walking.
2) Keep my HR at about 136-140 which is a little above my range (180-40-5=135)
3) Currently it takes me an avg of 15-17 minutes to run a mile.

Given the distance (9-10 miles/week) and HR, will I see much benefit?
Do I need to increase either my miles or days/wk?
My first goal is to get down to a 10mm at MAF. Then steadily decrease it.

Thanks for all the great posts.

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posted Oct-06-2006 03:54 AM               

thats more than the 10 % rule

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posted Oct-06-2006 06:53 AM              

9/12/06 10/3/06
Mile 1: 10:31@139 10:24@140
Mile 2: 11:25@139 11:21@140
Mile 3: 11:30@142 11:30@140
Mile 4: 12:23@142 11:28@139
Mile 5: 12:28@140 11:30@133

Peak HR: 151 145
Avg pace: 11.64mm 11.22 mm
So far so good! I currently run 6 to 6.5 hrs a week, which ends up being around 30 mpw. Most runs are about 130 (MAF-10). Some observations I've had during my 1st month:

I'm getting alot "smoother" and am able to "run" slower than a normal walking pace.

Able to keep HR within range even on hills (had to walk early on).

I was real sore the first couple of weeks and had an awful 2nd week - dropping to 20 mpw for that week. My calfs were burning/"pumped-up feeling" too bad to complete my runs.

I'm never tired or out of breath during my runs (except the soreness mentioned above)

After 3 weeks at MAF-10, MAF pace seemed "harder" but certainly not straining.

Able to do a 2 hr long run and not be burnt the rest of the day. (of course it's only 9 mi or so at MAF-10)

Also, I stopped even thinking about milage and instead I schedule based on time (hours per week instead of miles per week).

Anyway, thanks for this great post. I have the book, but it leaves a lot of gaps!

Bryan

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posted Oct-06-2006 08:43 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by footsie:
25 kilometres = 15.5 miles
32 kilometres - 20 miles

thats more than the 10 % rule

---

Ah, 15.5 and 20 miles. That feels good. I give you gallons and pounds of thanks.

Yes it is more than the 10% rule.
It comes down to your inner Karno and
whether or not you want to the let the beast
out of its cage. Karno don't know no percentages,
only what a cheesecake tastes like in the 120th mile
of a 200 mile run to the ocean. So you have to enter the dualistic state of mind and ask yourself "What am I doing? What do I want to create in my life?". Or someday you might find yourself living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself in another part of the world
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile
And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife
And you may ask yourself-well...how did I get here?
And you may ask yourself
How do I work this?
And you may ask yourself
Where is that large automobile?
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful house!
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful wife!
And you may ask yourself
What is that beautiful house?
And you may ask yourself
Where does that highway go?
And you may ask yourself
Am I right? ...am I wrong?
And you may tell yourself
My god!...what have I done?

"My god, what have I done?"
Why didn't I run that twenty miles.
Why did I run that twenty miles?

--Jimmy

P.S. Excuse me, sometimes my inner Byrne comes out.

Current Marathon Training
My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

http://members.cox.net/jimmybrunelle/heartratephase4.html

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posted Oct-06-2006 02:19 PM            

Your response to the running by funerals cracked me up big time.

Your Byrne was pretty good too.

AZ High Country. Many of us find that it takes about 250 miles to see an improvement in our maf times. You may see results faster or slower than that.

Upping your mileage depends on your body. Do you feel good making those 3 mile runs into 4 milers. Do have time in your life to add an extra running day. Can your body handle running a couple of days in a row or does it need more time off to recover? Only you can answer that.

By the way, I found that when I first started running I needed more time to recover, and now that my body is used to running I dont need as much recovery time.

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posted Oct-06-2006 03:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

P.S. Excuse me, sometimes my inner Byrne comes out.

---

How about your inner Henley? Endurango, you've been out riding fences...

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posted Oct-06-2006 06:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by AZ High Country:
I just started running around Feb06. I'm 41M, 5'10", 175lbs. Never liked running EVER. Until lately when I started using MAF. I have some questions based on the following:

1) I run 3 days/wk (M, W, F) about 3 miles/day. I do about 5-10 of warm up wawlking and cool down walking.
2) Keep my HR at about 136-140 which is a little above my range (180-40-5=135)
3) Currently it takes me an avg of 15-17 minutes to run a mile.

Given the distance (9-10 miles/week) and HR, will I see much benefit?
Do I need to increase either my miles or days/wk?
My first goal is to get down to a 10mm at MAF. Then steadily decrease it.

Thanks for all the great posts.

---

Results at very low mileage are very inconsistent. If you want to
get down to 10 min/mi at MAF, I would suggest you increase your
weekly mileage - recommendation being at least 20-25. Some people
have seen improvements on low mileage but others have seen
practically none.

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posted Oct-06-2006 06:45 PM            

I have been following this thread and the original thread since August of 05.

My first marathon is October 15th. The taper has given me time to post.

Here are my results. I was a new runner July 05. 40M so MAF is 140-145

Before HRM I had worked up to a 7.6 mile run at 8:59 pace.

Miles per month

Aug 89
Sep 102
Oct 90
Nov 58
Dec 87
Jan 185
Feb 187
Mar 181
Apr 169
May 140
Jun 177
Jul 181
Aug 223
Sep 193

I started MAF training when I got my HRM in October of 05. Wow 1 year!!!

My first MAF run (pushing right up to the 141 HR and no warm up(hadn¡¦t read enough of the thread yet)) was the same 7.6 miles at 11:08 pace 140 AHR.

Ran for a couple of weeks between 11:00 and 11:30 pace 140 AHR. Then I upped my HR to 151. 10:40 and slower pace for November and December.

New Years Resolution to keep under 141. With walking first mile included, average pace was down to 13:30 136 AHR. I worked up to long run of 18 averaged 12:54 134 AHR. By end of Jan 12:21 pace for 7.6 mile loop 136 AHR.

End of March 8.6 mile loop 11:30, 136 AHR. 18 averaged 12:10, 136 AHR.

End of April 8.6 mile loop 10:50, 136 AHR. Half Marathon 8:44 pace. 167 Avg. HR.

End of May warmer temps pace 10:45 to 11:00, 136 AHR. 20K 8:58 pace 169 Avg. HR.

June-July pace all over because of heat and humidity???.

August cool morning 12.6 mile loop 10:23 and 132 AHR.

Last night 6.2 miles 10:29 137 AHR.

Not a lot of improvement since April however I have increased long runs. Didn¡¦t really want to increase pace during hot humid summer anyway so just kept at MAF.

I have splits and AHR for most all runs if someone would want me to email spreadsheet to them for further analysis.

Just wanted to give you guys some more data points for your experiment. ļ And to thank you for starting and keeping this thread going. It has really helped me increase my mileage and hopefully I am prepared for my marathon.

I am also going to post a marathon prediction message in basic training. So please let me know what you think about my pace plan.

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posted Oct-08-2006 01:40 PM               

I made a new PR with a 1:34:27 (7:13 pace). My Previous PR was a 1:36:21 (7:21) done on the same course last year. I had a marathon race pace tempo run scheduled for today, and decided to go do it at the race to be social. When I got there, my competitive nature got the best of me, and I decided to race, starting with my previous PR pace, see how it felt, then just run a little faster. Ended up feeling pretty good, so I held a slightly faster pace. Speeding up the last 3-4 miles. I could have gone a bit harder the whole race, but didn't want to kill my legs for this weeks training. I wore my HRM, not to control or limit my speed to stay in a zone, but to gather data for training. Here are the splits with ave heart rate. I decided to start at my previous PR pace of 7:21, and I don't know how I did it, but hit it exactly in the first mile:

1) 7:21 161
2) 7:20 168
3) 7:17 170
4) 7:03 173
5) 7:32 174 (long, long hill)
6) 7:13 173
7) 7:19 178
8) 7:10 176
9) 7:17 178 (long hill)
10) 6:59 177 (downhill)
11) 7:07 179
12) 7:20 182 (long steep hill)
13.1) 7:24 186 (6:44 pace)

What I'm finding with the low HR training is that after a period of pure MAF training, when I start to add some higher heart rate miles, it's like jumping of a cliff into the land of Overallfasterpacia. It's like lighting a load of slow twitch dynamite with a fast twitch fire. Just two or three runs with marathon race pace miles and one lactate threshold run, and it's like ZOOOOM! Paces dropped bigtime at all heart rate zones. This stuff is great.

Now, 3 more weeks of high volume, then a taper, then Philly.

--Jimmy

Current Marathon Training
My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Oct-08-2006).]

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posted Oct-08-2006 02:15 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

What I'm finding with the low HR training is that after a period of pure MAF training, when I start to add some higher heart rate miles, it's like jumping of a cliff into the land of Overallfasterpacia. It's like lighting a load of slow twitch dynamite with a fast twitch fire. Just two or three runs with marathon race pace miles and one lactate threshold run, and it's like ZOOOOM! Paces dropped bigtime at all heart rate zones. This stuff is great.

Now, 3 more weeks of high volume, then a taper, then Philly.

--Jimmy

---

Excellent, Jimmy! You're seeing what I've experienced now -
that's great. I'm glad you decided to wear your HRM. It will
really help you understand how to set your pace for future
races, especially when you don't know exactly what kind of
pace shape you are in.

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posted Oct-08-2006 06:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
What I'm finding with the low HR training is that after a period of pure MAF training, when I start to add some higher heart rate miles, it's like jumping of a cliff into the land of Overallfasterpacia. It's like lighting a load of slow twitch dynamite with a fast twitch fire. Just two or three runs with marathon race pace miles and one lactate threshold run, and it's like ZOOOOM! Paces dropped bigtime at all heart rate zones. This stuff is great.

Now, 3 more weeks of high volume, then a taper, then Philly.

--Jimmy

Current Marathon Training
My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Oct-08-2006).]

---

Good job on the PR! A 7:13 pace is impressive. When you say "a period of pure MAFing" does that mean you did nothing but MAF and then race the HM? How long of a period of "pure MAFing" did you perform? After Chicago I am thinking about doing nothing but MAF for the Virginia Beach Marathon in the spring. After MAFing for several months I decided to throw some speed work into the equation. After 4 weeks of speed work I felt pain in my knee. So I had to take a week off. I have started running again and feel great.
Once again good job on the PR.
kcy

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posted Oct-08-2006 07:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

I made a new PR with a 1:34:27 (7:13 pace). My Previous PR was a 1:36:21 (7:21) done on the same course last year. I had a marathon race pace tempo run scheduled for today, and decided to go do it at the race to be social. When I got there, my competitive nature got the best of me, and I decided to race, starting with my previous PR pace, see how it felt, then just run a little faster. Ended up feeling pretty good, so I held a slightly faster pace. Speeding up the last 3-4 miles. I could have gone a bit harder the whole race, but didn't want to kill my legs for this weeks training. I wore my HRM, not to control or limit my speed to stay in a zone, but to gather data for training. Here are the splits with ave heart rate. I decided to start at my previous PR pace of 7:21, and I don't know how I did it, but hit it exactly in the first mile:

1) 7:21 161
2) 7:20 168
3) 7:17 170
4) 7:03 173
5) 7:32 174 (long, long hill)
6) 7:13 173
7) 7:19 178
8) 7:10 176
9) 7:17 178 (long hill)
10) 6:59 177 (downhill)
11) 7:07 179
12) 7:20 182 (long steep hill)
13.1) 7:24 186 (6:44 pace)

What I'm finding with the low HR training is that after a period of pure MAF training, when I start to add some higher heart rate miles, it's like jumping of a cliff into the land of Overallfasterpacia. It's like lighting a load of slow twitch dynamite with a fast twitch fire. Just two or three runs with marathon race pace miles and one lactate threshold run, and it's like ZOOOOM! Paces dropped bigtime at all heart rate zones. This stuff is great.

Now, 3 more weeks of high volume, then a taper, then Philly.

--Jimmy

---

Way to go Jimmy! From your heart rates compared to your Sugarloaf heart rates it looks like you were pretty conservative. I'll bet you knock a couple of minutes off that PR when you decide to. Our marathon heart rates match up almost exactly and I did a half a week ago at 182 bpm average.

I think you're right that a little stimulus goes a long way with low heart-rate training. After 10 weeks of pure MAF, I've done about a race a month for the last three months. It seems like each one builds on the last and carries over to training (of course the weater has improved, too!).

Greg

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posted Oct-08-2006 09:26 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Excellent, Jimmy! You're seeing what I've experienced now -
that's great. I'm glad you decided to wear your HRM. It will
really help you understand how to set your pace for future
races, especially when you don't know exactly what kind of
pace shape you are in.

---

Thanks, Jesse. Using the HRm today actually gave me invaluable data for the marathon, as I work up around those HR's in the latter part of the race.

I'm really psyched about my place in my age division at this race. Last year I was 20th out of 49 runners (40-49 division), and this year I was 18th out of 70 runners

--Jimmy

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