| Author |
Topic: Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen |
Relja
Member |
 posted Sep-26-2006 09:02 AM
  
Mobius I have same, much higher HR in the morning no matter exact time or weather etc. It is so already 20 years. I couldn't do anything about this. I talked with many friends about it and most people race better afternoon(if not all of them). Of course this is very bad for racing. I usually run 5k race 30seconds slower than afternoon. Halfmarathon is much worse, 2-4 minutes slower. Only thing that helps me is a drink with caffeine or guarana before race. Then is easier, feels fresher but don't drink it when is hot because pulse and blood pressure goes to high then. Another solution is to find races which are afternoon, but most are not, unfortunately.
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Mobius
Member |
posted Sep-26-2006 02:37 PM
Thanks for the high morning HR comments all. I'll report back as the weather cools and see if anything changes. I hadn't thought about dew point. I imagine that's a player somehow. I might be hard coded though like Relja. I wonder if staying up all night makes a (positive) difference! (I doubt it!)
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labhiker
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-27-2006 07:46 AM
Can any Maffers share advice on suggested pre-race hydration and nutrition before a HM? Im thinking of carbo loading a few days before and then tapering the food intake to a minimum before the morning race. Same with hydration. Is it appropriate to super hydrate 24+ hours before the race and keep it to a minimum before the start? Is it OK to run with the fuel belt during the race so you can self regulate your hydration and fluids (water, or pediolit/water mix) I ask these questions as I typically avoid any food intake before morning training runs and want to avoid problems... during the race. Is it OK to approach a HM as simply another long run, only at a higher HR?
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-27-2006 08:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by labhiker:
Can any Maffers share advice on suggested pre-race hydration and nutrition before a HM? Im thinking of carbo loading a few days before and then tapering the food intake to a minimum before the morning race. Same with hydration. Is it appropriate to super hydrate 24+ hours before the race and keep it to a minimum before the start? Is it OK to run with the fuel belt during the race so you can self regulate your hydration and fluids (water, or pediolit/water mix) I ask these questions as I typically avoid any food intake before morning training runs and want to avoid problems... during the race. Is it OK to approach a HM as simply another long run, only at a higher HR?
You don't have to overdo hydrating before the race. Make sure to drink enough to keep your pee on the clear side. Anything more than that is unnecessary. Especially before the race. You don't want to have to keep stopping during the race for pee breaks. Food intake should come no closer than 3 hours before the race and don't gel up or take anything but water until 40 minutes into the race. You can approach the race as a long run, but if you are truly racing it, your HR should be up there for a HM--not at a pace slower than marathon pace. I generally don't use a HRM in a race, so I'm not sure what %MHR I run in for HM's. Probably 85-90% MHR. I just work off my PR times, keep trying to beat those. If you don't have a PR, then go to MCMillan calculator and pop in a recent race time and it'll give you a ballpark figure to go for. If your aerobic system is fit, then you should be able to get that number. Good luck!!
--Jimmy Current Marathon Training
My Running World MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone
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Cashmason
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-28-2006 03:19 AM
No need to carb load before the race as you won't run out of carbs until mile 20 or so and you are doing 13. Eat normally. Eat stuff your tummy likes the night before. Dont want jalapeno pizza you ate last night burning its way out during the race. Likewise no high fiber stuff the day before that will make you need a porta potty stop at mile 8.Get lots of sleep 2 nights before the race. Almost no one sleeps well the night before the race so get it the night before that. Lack of sleep for one night will not affect your race time. Nothing new on race day. Only wear clothes and shoes you have run long distances in before. No new food or drinks before the race. Only use flavors of gels etc you have tried in training.
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-28-2006 06:16 PM
Jesse, when you wear a HRM in a marathon, do you target a specific # or just go by feel? I vaguely remember you writing something about this, but we're 48 pages into this thread and goodness knows how long I'll have to sit here to find it. I ask because I have a target time for my next marathon, but it's aggressive at this stage of my training and I want to be able to dial it back as early as possible. I'm thinking the HRM will tell me if I'm deluding myself on pacing.
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-28-2006 06:18 PM
Jesse, when you wear a HRM in a marathon, do you target a specific # or just go by feel? I vaguely remember you writing something about this, but we're 48 pages into this thread and goodness knows how long I'll have to sit here to find it. I ask because I have a target time for my next marathon, but it's aggressive at this stage of my training and I want to be able to dial it back as early as possible. I'm thinking the HRM will tell me if I'm deluding myself on pacing.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-28-2006 06:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by martinjames:
Jesse, when you wear a HRM in a marathon, do you target a specific # or just go by feel? I vaguely remember you writing something about this, but we're 48 pages into this thread and goodness knows how long I'll have to sit here to find it. I ask because I have a target time for my next marathon, but it's aggressive at this stage of my training and I want to be able to dial it back as early as possible. I'm thinking the HRM will tell me if I'm deluding myself on pacing.
I go by feel, then I find "the right feeling," then I go "sort of" by
heart rate! Confusing, or what? So that you don't have to dig through
to find, here are my splits with avg HR over each split from my last
couple of regular marathons: 4/30 (cool weather):
6:41/154, 6:53/163, 6:55/164, 6:52/165, 6:59/167,
6:54/167, 7:16/168, 7:03/168, 7:26/167, 7:08/167,
7:07/167, 7:19/168, 7:10/168, 7:10/170, 7:16/169,
7:17/171, 7:23/170, 7:25/173, 7:26/170, 7:30/173,
7:25/175, 7:30/176, 7:23/176, 7:29/177, 7:51/178,
8:06/180, 3:38(7:31/mile)/178 6/17 (hot weather)
6:59/155, 6:56/164, 6:58/163, 7:12/164, 7:08/164,
7:14/165, 7:29/164, 7:32/164, 7:29/164, 7:07/163,
7:38/163, 7:31/162, 7:22/165, 7:29/166, 7:46/164,
7:39/166, 7:51/168, 7:48/169, 7:31/169, 7:46/171,
7:47/172, 8:06/169, 8:04/172, 7:48/175, 7:02/179,
7:06/185, 3:05/184(7:27/mi) My MAF is 149 (with the +5), my anaerobic threshold
is at about 177, and my max HR is about 210. These
are all helpful data points. I find a pace that I feel is comfortably challenging,
a bit faster than I'm used to run in training, then I
hold my HR steady for a while, then I let it slowly
climb. It's taken me several marathons to find a
formula that works somewhat ideally. ------------------
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-28-2006 09:03 PM
Thanks. It's interesting that you were faster and more consistent in the heat.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-28-2006 09:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by martinjames:
Thanks. It's interesting that you were faster and more consistent in the heat.
I wasn't. I should have posted the times. The cool weather
one I ran in just over 3:12. The hot one, which was a bit easier
course, I ran in just over 3:17. However, the hot one was probably
the better accomplishment (but the cool one qualified me for
Boston).
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-28-2006 09:19 PM
Just to follow up, note that in the cool weather race, every
mile except for 2 of them were under 7:30. Also, when I hit
about mile 22 or so, I knew that I had my sub-3:15:59 in the
bank, so I saw no reason to beat myself into the ground. And,
by the way, I'll say something now that probably everyone on
this board and anywhere else likely will disagree with. Negative
splits in pace is not the best way to run a race. It would be if the course
were flat and you had no heart rate drift. Negative splits in heart
rate is the best way. If you're not wearing a heart rate monitor,
obviously your only choice is to go by pace. With a heart rate
monitor, you can get yourself "warmed up" over a few miles at
relatively low heart rate, then slowly work yourself up to your
anaerobic threshold, and finally climb over your AT for the last
few miles. All the while your pace will probably slow down
slightly. If you haven't experienced too much heart rate drift
by the end, you can probably take the last few miles at a faster
pace, as I did in the hot weather race. But, the only reason I
was able to do that was because I was too conservative early
in the race. Had I really run at maximum effort, my last few
miles would have been slower, but my overall time would have
been better. ------------------
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-28-2006 09:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by martinjames:
Jesse, when you wear a HRM in a marathon, do you target a specific # or just go by feel? I vaguely remember you writing something about this, but we're 48 pages into this thread and goodness knows how long I'll have to sit here to find it. I ask because I have a target time for my next marathon, but it's aggressive at this stage of my training and I want to be able to dial
it back as early as possible. I'm thinking the HRM will tell me if I'm deluding myself on pacing.
James, For what it's worth http://www.teamoregon.com/publications/wizard.php is right on the money for me. The two spring marathons I ran were both at 172 bpm average, but I allocated the beats much better in one (went out two fast and died in the first). The Cherry Blossom and Annapolis 10-miler were at 183 and 184. If I put in 183 I get a predicted marathon heart rate of 172. Not bad. I've paced a couple of races by heart rate now and I'm a real believer. You need some data to work with, but if you've worn your monitor in some races, you should have that. YMMV though. Jesse's heart rates in the cherry blossom 10-miler and frederick marathon don't make sense to me (only 4 bpm apart). Maybe he's entered Jimmy's enchanted world of Endurango (I love that). Greg
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-29-2006 01:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Just to follow up, note that in the cool weather race, every
mile except for 2 of them were under 7:30. Also, when I hit
about mile 22 or so, I knew that I had my sub-3:15:59 in the
bank, so I saw no reason to beat myself into the ground. And,
by the way, I'll say something now that probably everyone on
this board and anywhere else likely will disagree with. Negative
splits in pace is not the best way to run a race. It would be if the course
were flat and you had no heart rate drift. Negative splits in heart
rate is the best way. If you're not wearing a heart rate monitor,
obviously your only choice is to go by pace. With a heart rate
monitor, you can get yourself "warmed up" over a few miles at
relatively low heart rate, then slowly work yourself up to your
anaerobic threshold, and finally climb over your AT for the last
few miles. All the while your pace will probably slow down
slightly. If you haven't experienced too much heart rate drift
by the end, you can probably take the last few miles at a faster
pace, as I did in the hot weather race. But, the only reason I
was able to do that was because I was too conservative early
in the race. Had I really run at maximum effort, my last few
miles would have been slower, but my overall time would have
been better.
I've only wore my HRM in one all-out marathon. I ran a negative split 1st half-2nd half, and my HR did something like what you're talking about. I find it hard t run anything but a negative split as I always start out a bit slower than projected race pace. Here's the splitsahol with heart rate chaser: SugarloafUSA:
1) 8:30 152
2) 8:32 159
3) 8:16 162
4) 8:11 167
5) 8:10 168
6) 8:11 171
7) 8:17 171
8) 8:13 170
9) 9:00 173
10)8:35 171
11) 7:58 169
12) 7:46 168
13) 7:38 175
14) 7:46 175
15) 7:47 173
16) 7:35 172
17) 7:25 174
18) 7:46 176
19) 7:36 179
20) 7:51 181
21) 7:58 181 My LT is around here
22) 8:17 180
23) 8:18 179
24) 7:54 183 TO here
25) 7:33 187
25.2) 1:42 189
26.2) 7:33 189 First 13.1) 1:49:15 8:20
Second 13.1) 1:41:17 7:44 Total: 3:30:32
ist half 152-175 ave 167 85%
2nd half 175-189 ave 179 91%
If I was to do this by HR, I would end up with a negative split again.
Maybe I don't get what you're saying. Could I have done this differently and performed better? Please explain. One thing interesting is that when I slowed down during mile 22-23, I still had a lot of HR "room" left (Max HR of 197). When I picked up the speed, it felt like a 5k race (distance I had left as well), and my HR went to 5k levels (finished near max). See you in Endurango. It's twitchy in them thar parts. And living is sloooow. --Jimmy Current Marathon Training
My Running World MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-29-2006 05:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gregw:
YMMV though. Jesse's heart rates in the cherry blossom 10-miler and frederick marathon don't make sense to me (only 4 bpm apart). Maybe he's entered Jimmy's enchanted world of Endurango (I love that). Greg
I think what you're seeing there is the fact that I run a lot of
marathons but not many 10 milers! ------------------
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-29-2006 10:55 PM
Jimmy,Your heart rate profile looks perfect to me. It's exactly what I was shooting for in my last marathon (we must have similar LTs), but I got wimpy in miles 20-23 because I was worried about blowing up like I did before. Here are my splits lined up with yours 158 154 152
164 166 159
166 166 167
167 168 167
169 xxx 168
170 167 171
170 171 171
171 168 170
171 170 173
171 169 171
172 169 169
172 169 168
173 170 175
176 171 175
176 173 173
179 174 172
182 173 174
182 174 176
182 173 179
183 175 181
184 174 181
184 175 180
185 174 179
173 176 183
167 178 187
142 181 189
152 188 189 The first column I let myself get to 180 too early and I blew up. In the second I played it safe and waiting for less than 3. Yours (the third column) is about what I was planning. Out of curiousity, do you happen to know what your avg HR was in a recent 10-miler or half marathon? Thanks,
Greg
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-30-2006 01:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gregw:
Jimmy,
Out of curiousity, do you happen to know what your avg HR was in a recent 10-miler or half marathon?Thanks,
Greg
No. As a general rule I don't wear HRM's in races. I did at (Sugarloaf) just to gather some data for training, and it was a mental obstacle for me. I actually stopped wearing it after it fell off once during a race years ago. I have tons of ave HR data under my Current Marathon Training link. --Jimmy Current Marathon Training
My Running World MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone
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RawRunner
Member |
posted Oct-01-2006 01:47 AM
Jesse, can you please confirm what you said somewhere in this thread about adding 5 bpm to MHR after doing an all out run? For instance, my MHR turns out to be 175 after my recent hard run. Please note that I was not quite totally blown out -- didn't see any stars at end of my run. Is it safe to say that my perceived MHR is now 180? Thanks, in advance, for your answer!
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-01-2006 07:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by RawRunner:
Jesse, can you please confirm what you said somewhere in this thread about adding 5 bpm to MHR after doing an all out run? For instance, my MHR turns out to be 175 after my recent hard run. Please note that I was not quite totally blown out -- didn't see any stars at end of my run. Is it safe to say that my perceived MHR is now 180? Thanks, in advance, for your answer!
I'm sorry but I don't understand your question. I don't know anything
about adding 5 beats to max heart rate. You'll have to identify the
context or the quote because I'm not familiar with the question or
the concept. Sorry about that.
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-01-2006 09:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by RawRunner:
Jesse, can you please confirm what you said somewhere in this thread about adding 5 bpm to MHR after doing an all out run? For instance, my MHR turns out to be 175 after my recent hard run. Please note that I was not quite totally blown out -- didn't see any stars at end of my run. Is it safe to say that my perceived MHR is now 180? Thanks, in advance, for your answer!
MHR is almost like nirvana. We believe it exists, but it is kind of hard to get there. I've adjusted my MHR upward a few times since I started my obsession with my bum-bumps. I still think I'm short by a few beats. The problem is that when I measured it for the first time a few years ago (using the Hadd track test), I didn't really warm-up enough, not push myself hard and long enough. Thought I did. Got a 183. 6 months later, I wore my monitor during a training HM. I pushed harder and harder the last 3 miles, until I was sprinting as hard as I could the last half mile. Registered a 193. During my last marathon, I pushed so very down the strect, and registered a 197. The point of this exciting story is that according to my experience and some of the articles I read, it's very difficult to get to MHR. Most of us can't stand the discomfort felt with the exhertion necessary to get to it. Also, we don't warm up enough. A runner might slap down 150.00 for a lab VO2 max test and come out with their official MHR, and it's probably a bit lower than what it really is, since the test is stopped when the runner has "had enough." Is my 197 my MHR? Probably still 2-5 beats short. But being 5 beats short doesn't hurt you in the HRM game. If you go out and try the hill test form "Compleat Idiot" or Hadd's track test, you can't go wrong adding 5 beats to the total, since you are probably a lot shorter than that anyway.
Best way to measure MHR is in a race or training run 10k or longer, running the last mile so hard that you feel like you're going to die. Probably still short a few beats. MAF training doesn't bother with MHR anyway, but I still use it to define different zones I use after MAF base training periods (i.e. lactate threshold training for me is 84-94% MHR) The key is to use the same zones, stay in them, and measure progress over time. Good luck! --Jimmy Current Marathon Training
My Running World MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone
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RawRunner
Member |
posted Oct-01-2006 11:45 AM
Sorry, Jesse, for not making my inquiry clear enough, but I tried looking for the your quote in this thread when the subject of how to determine anyone's maximum heart rate is established -- way too many pages to find that specific quote. Maybe it was someone else making that comment. In any rate, Jimmy answered it for me. Thanks, Jimmy! Yeah, what I am basically saying about our perceived maximum heart rate being the highest heart rate we have ever observed our heart attain. Then certain adjustment may be necessary based on the context under which we attained that maximum heart rate. This is where someone made the comment in this thread about adding 5 bpm, especially if we didn't feel quite blown out at the end of a hard run. Of course, this issue may not have anything to do with MAF, but it is always good to know what our maximum heart rate is and then see if we can still use the 180 - age formula without making a downward adjustment. Please note that not everyone, if I understood correctly, can benefit from this particular formula, especially if he or she has a very low maximum heart rate (i.e. Aharmer). Jesse, am I making sense this time? If so, do you recall the quote (your's or anyone else's) about adding 5 bpm to our MHR if we still feel less than total physical collapse at the end of a hard run?
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-01-2006 01:47 PM
Ok, understood. I'm pretty sure that was Jimmy that had said
that and I do agree. I don't generally refer to max heart rate
because I don't think it's very important unless you are like
aharmer with a very low max heart rate. Indeed, when you think
you've maxed out, there's probably always the possibility that
you'll max out even more!
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-01-2006 02:31 PM
Well, I decided to bag the Army 10-miler and run a half marathon (NCR trail half marathon) today instead. I got fed up with the Army 10 security restrictions and I've never really liked the big events anyway. The half, being 4 weeks out from the marine corps marathon, is better on my schedule as well.Anyway, I had a great day. Very flat course and very good weather (upper 50's, but humid). I stuck to my gameplan and followed my heart rate. I ended up running 1:40:02 on my watch (a few seconds slower officially). I was at 50 flat at the turnaround, but just didn't have enough gas at the end to crack 1:40. Still it was my best race timewise and I'm very happy. Only downside is my plantar fasciitis is killing me! It's funny, I plugged my time in mcmillan and it says to do my long runs at 8:30-9:30 pace. Holy cow. I guess I'm lazy. I did my last two 20 milers at 10:39 and 11:16 min/mi! I've only cracked the 10 min/mi barrier during my shorter runs a few times. One more long run next weekend and it's taper time. Greg
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-01-2006 02:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gregw:
Well, I decided to bag the Army 10-miler and run a half marathon (NCR trail half marathon) today instead. I got fed up with the Army 10 security restrictions and I've never really liked the big events anyway. The half, being 4 weeks out from the marine corps marathon, is better on my schedule as well.Anyway, I had a great day. Very flat course and very good weather (upper 50's, but humid). I stuck to my gameplan and followed my heart rate. I ended up running 1:40:02 on my watch (a few seconds slower officially). I was at 50 flat at the turnaround, but just didn't have enough gas at the end to crack 1:40. Still it was my best race timewise and I'm very happy. Only downside is my plantar fasciitis is killing me! It's funny, I plugged my time in mcmillan and it says to do my long runs at 8:30-9:30 pace. Holy cow. I guess I'm lazy. I did my last two 20 milers at 10:39 and 11:16 min/mi! I've only cracked the 10 min/mi barrier during my shorter runs a few times. One more long run next weekend and it's taper time. Greg
Great job, Greg! If you're running at MAF, it will generally
be much slower than McMillan suggests with the possible
exception being late in your training in cool weather where
you're at your fastest at MAF. Sorry to hear about your
PF. Is that something new for you?
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-01-2006 03:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Great job, Greg! If you're running at MAF, it will generally
be much slower than McMillan suggests with the possible
exception being late in your training in cool weather where
you're at your fastest at MAF. Sorry to hear about your
PF. Is that something new for you?
My comment about mcmillan was really just amazement that I can slog around at 10+ min/mi and then run a half marathon at 7:38 pace. The PF isn't new, unfortunately. I've had it since mid-April. It's been getting progressively worse, but I can still run. With all the miles I haven't really given it a chance to get better. Hopefully the taper and marathon recovery time will help, but I'm doing the Disney Goofy challenge (half on Sat/full on Sun) 10 weeks after MCM, so not much time to dawdle! I'm trying to figure out some plan that will give my PF the best chance to heal. Greg
[This message has been edited by gregw (edited Oct-01-2006).]
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-01-2006 05:23 PM
Hey, for my PF I just taped it and that alone did wonders. There is a great link to show you how to tape it in the med tent section here. I guess I also got some arch supports for my shoes. Just simple Dr Scholl's from K-mart. I kept the tape on for 2 or 3 days at a time, and I would air my foot out overnight on the days I would change the tape. New tape would go on the next morning. Don't forget to strech it about 3 times a day. Best tip I have? NEVER smell the used tape. LOLI also have a maf story but I am saving it for a week or two yet. ------------------
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