| Author |
Topic: Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
 posted Sep-12-2006 06:19 PM
   
quote:
Originally posted by Docster:
My mileage has increased almost 2 fold (up to 30-35 a week). I have gone above MAF, but only on a few nasty hills for the most part. On long runs, my average per mile has been 147 or so towards the end. Otherwise I've stuck with it. Last Saturday I ran a 5K race. Now, the only other one I've ran was 6 weeks ago, so my history is skewed in that regards. I've also lost 7 pounds during that time. (currently at 211 lbs) I PR'd by 2 minutes, down to 23:44. The course wasn't the same, but it was definitely no easier. (The top finishers ran both races, and their times were actually slower during this last race by a few seconds) Did MAF training help me? Absolutely. If nothing else, I'm able to run more miles per week while losing several nagging injuries I had. (PF, some ITB flare ups, etc)
Ok, it's all just a guessing game, but assuming the course
and environment were equivalent, I would surmise the following: 1. The increase in mileage has helped you. Possibly a lot, even
for the short term. 2. Given that you are running most of your runs probably at a much
easier level of effort, you have probably achieved a recovery state
that you have never felt before, at the same time as doing more
mileage. It's a great formula for good race performance. 3. You may have received some aerobic benefits in the short term
but it's hard to say. ------------------
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-12-2006 07:11 PM
What a difference the weather makes. Same 8.3 mile route, afternoon of June 1st, 89F, 55F dew pt, 13:17 min/mi, 138 bpm avg
morning of Sept 12th, 60F, 40F dew pt, 10:12 min/mi, 136 bpm avg Can we just pretend, I'm actually 3 min/mi faster? 
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caldwellb
unregistered |
posted Sep-12-2006 08:48 PM
Hello, new poster and maffer here - I just started a week ago and got around to my first MAF test today (when I could get to the track). I'm looking at 10:45 @ 140 to start. Anyway, I'm 40 y.o and I've been only been running about 2 yrs. My question is: it seems like people who have a background in running (high school/college) have better conditioning off-the-bat even though they may have been inactive for many years. I've seen stories of folks who BQ after two years of running, starting out as overweight couch potatoes and it's discouraging becuase I never seem to get faster (at least consistenly). I've never been that overweight, but have been somewhat sedentary in the past. I keep thinking that I've got a lot of base-building to do to make up for years of neglect. As a running novice, is this approach a good tactic for me to get faster/fitter? I've enjoyed my first week of slow running, but I certainly don't want to get any slower than I already am! Funny story - I've read here about how you have to put your ego away, especially at first. This morning when I was doing the MAF test, there was a group a Kenyans and Ethopians at the track doing mile repeats (at a 4:30 clip) while I'm shuffling around! It was pretty funny! What was kind of eye-opening was that their recovery laps were slower than my "shuffle" so I'd actually pass them once in while (OK, once).
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-12-2006 09:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by caldwellb:
Hello, new poster and maffer here - I just started a week ago and got around to my first MAF test today (when I could get to the track). I'm looking at 10:45 @ 140 to start. Anyway, I'm 40 y.o and I've been only been running about 2 yrs. My question is: it seems like people who have a background in running (high school/college) have better conditioning off-the-bat even though they may have been inactive for many years. I've seen stories of folks who BQ after two years of running, starting out as overweight couch potatoes and it's discouraging becuase I never seem to get faster (at least consistenly). I've never been that overweight, but have been somewhat sedentary in the past. I keep thinking that I've got a lot of base-building to do to make up for years of neglect. As a running novice, is this approach a good tactic for me to get faster/fitter? I've enjoyed my first week of slow running, but I certainly don't want to get any slower than I already am!
I think it is generally the case that people with a strong running
background from high school or college seem to really get back
into a groove relatively quickly while it's much tougher for those
that haven't. Not really a MAF thing - it applies across the board.
I'm not sure if it's the actual period in those years spent running
or if it's the fact that most people who run in high school or college
have talent and may be naturally good runners.
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caldwellb
unregistered |
posted Sep-12-2006 09:42 PM
Don't want to get too off-topic, but if you ran in HS and college that'd be 8 yrs. of *coached* experience right there- vs. my almost two years on my own. I suppose sports aren't something you can exactly learn by the internet and books. OTOH, I'm a firm believer in "any plan is better than no plan" which is where I'm starting. So, I'm planning on trying low-heart rate training, and if I don't see results or get bored after a few months, then perhaps I should hire a coach or join a running club or something.
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Docster
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-13-2006 10:12 AM
quote:
Ok, it's all just a guessing game, but assuming the course and environment were equivalent, I would surmise the following:1. The increase in mileage has helped you. Possibly a lot, even for the short term. 2. Given that you are running most of your runs probably at a much easier level of effort, you have probably achieved a recovery state that you have never felt before, at the same time as doing more mileage. It's a great formula for good race performance. 3. You may have received some aerobic benefits in the short term but it's hard to say.
I agree Jesse. I do keep running logs, but I know there has been improvement just from the numbers in my head. I might check them closely at some point, but given that I haven't been running for long, improvement will come with any increase in mileage, more weight loss, etc.
I'm not following the plan to a T, but I'm mostly there. I suspect with the temps cooling down that I will be strictly maffing except for a few shorter races in the next 3 months. I'm not looking for validation of any sort...if that day comes I'll start posting crazy numbers here. Maybe next year...  Cheers.
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jrescpa
Member |
posted Sep-15-2006 02:01 PM
I've been doing the MAFF thing for about a year now. Started after a 3 month layoff over summer 2005 due to pulled abdominal muscle. 6 weeks no activity followed by 6 weeks of slow cycling then started began running around Labor Day. I did almost all MAFF running and ran 3:53 at Boston going very easy. Athought the downhill made my legs sore, I had no real fatigue at the end. I ran a couple of mile repeats at 8mpm and 1 tempo run at 7:30 pace for 20 minutes. That's it. I was in better shape. I peaked averagin 42 mpw of 8 weeks prior to taper. No bad at all. Now I'm training for a Dec marathon and my MAFF pace is approx 9mpm. Haven't run faster than 8:25 pace in months. I'm racing a half on Oct 15, so I'll see where I'm at. I think I can run 1:37 ish. Then I'll add in tempo work. I find the slower runs leave me refreshed with fewer aches and pains after. I also started doing most long runs on only water and sometimes weak Gatorade ala McMillan. I don't know if it really works, but when I pop a gel in a race, I'm turbo charged so I accept that after 15 or 20 miles I start to run out of gas but not as much as you might think even with no breakfast.Jon
Age 45
Weight 145
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pmbooks
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-15-2006 03:45 PM
Not sure anyone over here in basic Training has yet, but we've lit some birthday candles for Jesse over in the ultra/trail group.Happy Birthday leitnerJ Pawl ------------------
Moi
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labhiker
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-15-2006 05:52 PM
I have a rather basic question for fellow Maffers.For the past several months (6+) I've been trying to follow MAFF. Althought I have not practiced multiple MAF tests (on TM or track), my results are generaly positive. With time I have experienced an increase in weekly mileage and my average training pace has increased to about 10 - 10:20mm (hilly roadways -- previously 12mm+/-). I've certainly improved my aerobic base. Over the past several months my current training has me logging about 30-35 mpw. The miles are very comfortable and all remains injury free. Basically, Im a slow Maffer trying to improve overall fitness and performance goal. For the past several weeks I am trying to adjust my training goals to limit my maxHR to MAF -5 to -10 (128 - 123 range). I did this because my progress in July/August appeared to be stalled. (Previous to this change I had started running weekly long runs in the MAF+10 range, and may have done too much anerobic work? Thus thought is appropriate to slow down again.) In making this change I am surprised that my average training pace did not not decreased too much (45 sec +/-). Id like to run a few local 5ks with friends, however am uncertain what a good target race pace might be? I know it should be quicker my 10mm training pace, but not sure what a realistic goal should be? Is it realistic to shoot for something towards 8mm or less (per maff summary chart)? My fear is going out too fast and then suffering the consequences afterwards. At the same time I do not want to simply jog the course and not take advantabe of the improved aerobic base. I'd hate to stop the weekly LSD training program because I went after a goal which was inappropriate. Will this short-term anerobic work mess up my long-term training goals? I trust these questions are not too basic for this thread and would appreciate feedback and comments from fellow Maffers, who are more experienced than myself. Thanks.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-15-2006 06:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by pmbooks:
Not sure anyone over here in basic Training has yet, but we've lit some birthday candles for Jesse over in the ultra/trail group.Happy Birthday leitnerJ Pawl
aw shucks, thanks - I'll have to pop on over there ...
(must be that ultralist thing ...)
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-15-2006 06:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by labhiker:
Id like to run a few local 5ks with friends, however am uncertain what a good target race pace might be? I know it should be quicker my 10mm training pace, but not sure what a realistic goal should be? Is it realistic to shoot for something towards 8mm or less (per maff summary chart)? My fear is going out too fast and then suffering the consequences afterwards. At the same time I do not want to simply jog the course and not take advantabe of the improved aerobic base. I'd hate to stop the weekly LSD training program because I went after a goal which was inappropriate. Will this short-term anerobic work mess up my long-term training goals? I trust these questions are not too basic for this thread and would appreciate feedback and comments from fellow Maffers, who are more experienced than myself. Thanks.
I think if you keep your racing to a small percentage of your
weekly mileage, you shouldn't see much, if any, negative
effect. If you wear your HR monitor to race, I would suggest
you not think about pace too much. Start out at around
MAF+15, see how that feels, if comfortable build up after
a mile or so to 20 beats or so over, hold it for a mile, then
start to progressively open it up. I think you'd be capable
to go 7:30-8, maybe faster, but for your first race after all
this MAFfing, you'll need to get a feel for running fast.
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labhiker
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-15-2006 07:54 PM
leitnerj,Thanks for the comment and advice. Having limitted experience with tempor or race pace, I think the recommendation to use the HR monitor is great as all training is simply slave to the monitor. The advice to slow increase to MAF +## levels shoulds perfect. Other than reaching a point of exhaustion, is there any limit as to how high you could climb above target MAF? Is it safe to go +25, 30 or more? Im trying to recall how long one can work at full anerobic condition? Is the limit approximately 5 minutes before things start to shut down or simply run out of gas. Other than detailed testing, how can one predict the maximum anerobic threshold? Is a safe estimate about 170 or 180 bbp? Secondly, can we improve this limit over time with training (like MAF performance)?
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-15-2006 08:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by labhiker:
leitnerj,Thanks for the comment and advice. Having limitted experience with tempor or race pace, I think the recommendation to use the HR monitor is great as all training is simply slave to the monitor. The advice to slow increase to MAF +## levels shoulds perfect. Other than reaching a point of exhaustion, is there any limit as to how high you could climb above target MAF? Is it safe to go +25, 30 or more? Im trying to recall how long one can work at full anerobic condition? Is the limit approximately 5 minutes before things start to shut down or simply run out of gas. Other than detailed testing, how can one predict the maximum anerobic threshold? Is a safe estimate about 170 or 180 bbp? Secondly, can we improve this limit over time with training (like MAF performance)?
I don't really know a great way to predict anaerobic threshold,
except by experimentation or a vo2max test. There are some
methods online that you can google. You certainly can push it
up, but what you will really do is gain the ability to run closer
and closer to it for longer and longer (at least that was the case
with me). Nonetheless, it's your anaerobic threshold that tells
you how much over MAF you can go. You'll have to learn for
yourself after some trial and error.
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-15-2006 08:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by labhiker:
Other than reaching a point of exhaustion, is there any limit as to how high you could climb above target MAF? Is it safe to go +25, 30 or more? Im trying to recall how long one can work at full anerobic condition? Is the limit approximately 5 minutes before things start to shut down or simply run out of gas. Other than detailed testing, how can one predict the maximum anerobic threshold? Is a safe estimate about 170 or 180 bbp? Secondly, can we improve this limit over time with training (like MAF performance)?
http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/enduranc.htm is an excellent web site and answers a number of these questions.
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roy c
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-16-2006 07:05 AM
Thanks Jesse, Cashmason and others
for all the sound advice that has been dished out.
I tried this in early July but had HR monitor problems which in the end was rectfied by a change of battery although I do use the gel cash recommended.
Anyway not so long ago I was post 14:00 pace especially on my longer runs above 8m. I am now in the 12:+ pace but under 13:00 even on my long runs. I have now stopped eating before I run, which for me I didn't think possible. Today I did 9 miles no food and just 1 sip of sports drink at mile 4 nothing else. My pace today was 12:19, 12:23, 12:21, 12:37, 12:38, 13:21, 12:49, 12:08, 13:02 AHR 132 which is my MAF target.
I don't have a race until Dec, so I will stick at it until then and beyond.
Thanks
Roy
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Beevee
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-16-2006 11:39 AM
I am starting week 3 of MAF and my miles are up and injury/soreness/complaints are down. I can't wait to begin to see some progress, hopefully by Thanksgiving. I will be a heck of a walker, if nothing else! No telling what kind of improvement I could see after 24 weeks.I do have a question though. I did 8 miles yesterday, and I had a hard time staying under hr by the last mile. It was like my body was forcing a cool down as I had to keep going slower and slower to stay under MAF. Is this the case? As time goes on, will I gradually be able to increase the miles on a long "run" as I adjust to MAF? A big thanks to Jesse and Jimmy for your advice and encouragement. I finally feel confident enough to post here. Thanks too to Cashmason for your posts, as they have helped me to see that I will, given time, improve my pace as you have done. And just like Cashmason, roy c, I have watched your progress since you started posting on Coolrunning and you are an inspiration too. Thanks all!
Bev
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-16-2006 03:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Beevee:
I am starting week 3 of MAF and my miles are up and injury/soreness/complaints are down. I can't wait to begin to see some progress, hopefully by Thanksgiving. I will be a heck of a walker, if nothing else! No telling what kind of improvement I could see after 24 weeks.I do have a question though. I did 8 miles yesterday, and I had a hard time staying under hr by the last mile. It was like my body was forcing a cool down as I had to keep going slower and slower to stay under MAF. Is this the case? As time goes on, will I gradually be able to increase the miles on a long "run" as I adjust to MAF? A big thanks to Jesse and Jimmy for your advice and encouragement. I finally feel confident enough to post here. Thanks too to Cashmason for your posts, as they have helped me to see that I will, given time, improve my pace as you have done. And just like Cashmason, roy c, I have watched your progress since you started posting on Coolrunning and you are an inspiration too. Thanks all!
Bev
That's great, Bev, I hope whatevery you take from this benefits
you in the long run. I used to say that the big loss in pace late
in runs was just due to early stages of getting used to the distance
and the aerobic system being in development. However, I think
it is most likely due to dehydration. As you dehydrate, you will
experience a gradual drift in heart rate, but there seems to be a
point at which the loss in fluids accumulates to a point of no
return and you can no longer control your heart rate. Drinking
something quickly won't help much as it's too late. If you weigh
yourself before and after, you may be able to isolate whether
that's the problem and you may be able to identify a magic
number of some kind. When I hit about 6 lbs fluid loss, that's
it, my heart rate goes out of control. That's a bit over 3% body
weight. ------------------
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streeetch
Member |
posted Sep-16-2006 04:12 PM
Thank you for the thread (leitnerj, Happy Birthday) and thank you to everyone for all the information. Quick question about no eating before runs. What to do on race day?I've been MAFing for almost 3 months and have followed the no eating 2 - 3 hours before all runs and bike rides. During the week I run/ride at lunchtime. On the weekend I do run first thing in the morning but I'm thinking that might not be the best idea on race day. My first race (5k) ever is next weekend and is only about 15 minutes from the house. I'm debating on eating a little an hour before a couple runs this week to see how it goes. What to do on race day? ------------------
I run because I can [This message has been edited by streeetch (edited Sep-16-2006).]
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-16-2006 05:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by streeetch:
Thank you for the thread (leitnerj, Happy Birthday) and thank you to everyone for all the information. Quick question about no eating before runs. What to do on race day?I've been MAFing for almost 3 months and have followed the no eating 2 - 3 hours before all runs and bike rides. During the week I run/ride at lunchtime. On the weekend I do run first thing in the morning but I'm thinking that might not be the best idea on race day. My first race (5k) ever is next weekend and is only about 15 minutes from the house. I'm debating on eating a little an hour before a couple runs this week to see how it goes. What to do on race day?
This is truly an invidual thing. And, really, if you're following the
Maffetone advice, you just need to avoid carbs right before a run,
not eating altogether.
I don't take in anything on a race of any distance, even 100 miles,
until at least a few miles in, unless I'm up at least 3 hours before.
Now, for a 5k, you won't run out of energy and it will be over quickly
(so you shouldn't miss breakfast), so I wouldn't bother eating before
anyway. ------------------
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roy c
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-17-2006 04:17 PM
What would you eat before a run in the morning?
Roy
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-17-2006 05:12 PM
Nothing. I'm usually eating up until I go to bed it seems, so I have plenty to go on in the morning if it's needed.--Jimmy Current MAF Training
My Running World MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone
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kcy1998
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-17-2006 05:39 PM
Belated Happy B-Day to Jesse!
A few weeks ago I posted about my 9 month experience w\ MAF and how I was two minutes slower than last year. It started a lively discussion with good input. Now I want to tell you about a success story in a 5K I ran today. It was my first road race I had ever run (2002). My times by years are listed below.
2002-30:45
2003-21:37
2004-22:32
2005-22:01
2006-21:36
I believe that my MAFing has helped me achieve a PR. Over the past two weeks I have been doing some intervals. My MAF mileage has been over 80% of my total mileage. All of this has contributed to knocking a second off of my 5K times. One thing that I did do in this race is tell myself that it will be a hard run but I can stick it out. In my previous Half Marathon I believe that after reading of all the success I had a mind set that the my MAFing had made it EASY to achieve my goal time. In this 5K I had a different mind set that it will be hard but my MAFing will allow me to run through the pain. Some how I had interpeted all of the success that has been posted to this board as MAFing made the desired times EASY. In my experience MAFing makes he desired times more achieveable. MAFing does not gurantee there will not be any pain. If I can help someone avoid the trap that I fell into then fantastic.
kcy------------------
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-17-2006 05:47 PM
Nice run! Congratulations.
I think your legs just needed some stimulus, and now you can reap some fo the benefits of a good base.Keep going --Jimmy Current MAF Training
My Running World MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone
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novarobin
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-18-2006 09:34 AM
So I have read the FAQ and browsed the many pages of this thread and I have a very basic question.First I will give you my background. I ran a HM in the spring. I experienced similiar problems explained in the FAQ causing me to believe I don't have a strong enough aerobic base. After I took a couple weeks off (moved, new job) I got back to running and started a 12 week HM training program. I am still experiencing the same problems, so I figured I am going to go back to basics. My longest long run so far was 12km. My goal is to run a HM next spring, possibly a marathon. My question is what should my training schedule be during the basebuilding phase? How long should my runs be? How many times a week? I also have a VO2 max test scheduled for tomorrow.
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verses
Member |
posted Sep-18-2006 12:03 PM
Dear GForce and KCY,I noted something that hadn't been addressed with respect to the preceding discussion. You stated that the vast, vast majority of training has been done inside on a treadmill since beginning MAF, apart from isolated runs every now and then outside. I take it the room in which the treadmill is situated is cooled, or atleast possesses a fan / is cooler than ambient outdoor temperature? Is it possible that formerly (prior to beginning target HR training) your runs were done outside, and thus you were considerably better acclimatized to the heat, whereas now, having trained almost entirely on a treadmill in a controlled environment, you have lost that former heat acclimatization and thus had difficulty when exposed to the HM conditions despite considerably better aerobic fitness as would be indicated by your considerable drop in pace at target HR? You stated you felt tired and / or fatigued during the HM, which would be in line with this conjecture, as well as the weight loss over the half. Furthermore, one would expect that your race pace for a given heart rate would be found at a greater differential from your MAF test pace, yet they seem to be a bit closer together than what others training in their racing environment have reported -- I imagine this is indicative of conditions that your body is not presently used to? Please correct me if I miss the mark on the vast majority of your training since starting target HR training being on a treadmill whereas afore it was most likely out in the environment in which you were racing, humidity, temperature and sun wise Best Wishes,
Sach
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