posted Sep-04-2006 03:18 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
I need feedback as to what happened in my half marathon that I ran on Sunday. Over the past 9 months I have been Maffing. According to my records making great progress. Going from a 14:+ mm to a 08:57 mm while keeping my HR @ Maf (135 bpm). Last year I ran the same half in 1:41:45. This year I ran it in 01:44:00. My goal was to run it in the same time as last year. I did not I woke up at 05:45 in the morning and the race started @ 07:30. I did not eat anything prior to racing. This has been part of my training over the past 9 months. At mile 06 I took a GU. Up until that point I had only drank water. After mile 6 I drank Gatorade. I did weigh myself before and after the race. I lost 3.5 pounds during the race. The temp was 69 at start and low humidity. I only drank about 20 ounces of water during the race. Below are my splits and my HR.
1-07:45-157
2-07:53-160
3-07:55-161
4-07:28-165
05-07:50-167
6-07-45-168
7-07:35-170
8-07:58-179
9-07:45-177
10-08:35-172
11-08:19-165
12-08:36-172
13-07:30-177
I finished with a HR of 183 and my average HR was 169.
At mile 10 the wheels fell off. I remember telling myself about Jimmy's race report and how it was a mind game. I could not make my legs go any faster.
I am willing to listen to any and all.
Thanks, kcy

---

What jumps out at me is the mile 8 split and the 7:58/179. Was that a very steep hill you charged up? This is 10bpm over your average so maybe that put you over your lactate threshold and helped the wheels come off.

If that's not the case, it looks like you started to run out of gas just trying to keep pace, Did you taper?

What mileage were you running before last year's half? What kind of training were you doing? (We have to consider the possibility your were in better shape/had more endurance then.) Do you have your splits (curious about mile 8)? Was the weather much better?

How were you feeling? Is it possible you were ill?

Of course, it just might not have been your day. I ran an inexplicable 4:49 marathon last fall after running a 20 mile race in 3:06 6 weeks earlier.

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posted Sep-04-2006 05:32 PM            

The course was not pancake flat but it was flat for the most part. There were not any killer hills. All the hills were short and had a small incline.

Last year I was running between 30-35 miles a wee prior to the race. This year my mileage has increased. The week prior to the race I ran 33 miles. I did taper. Prior to the 33 miles I had run 60 miles a week for the prior 3 weeks.

The weather was the same for both races.

At mile 8 & 9 my HR increased. Then at mile 10 it decreased. I believe the decrease is due to my friend reminding me to drink. I had a few swalows of Gatorade and that could have caused my HR to decrease.

It is not that my experience has been bad maffing. I believe that my legs had not ran fast for quite a while and this is the biggest difference I can think of in my training. Last year I ran faster in my training prior to the half marathon. I am hoping that in the full marathon my maffing will kick in during the later miles. Can you provide any insight into maffing kicking in at later miles?

I am going to try some 12,000 meter itnervals and finish up my long runs at marathon pace. Hopefully the problem was that my legs did not know how to run fast.

What do you think?

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posted Sep-04-2006 05:52 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
I need feedback as to what happened in my half marathon that I ran on Sunday. Over the past 9 months I have been Maffing. According to my records making great progress. Going from a 14:+ mm to a 08:57 mm while keeping my HR @ Maf (135 bpm). Last year I ran the same half in 1:41:45. This year I ran it in 01:44:00. My goal was to run it in the same time as last year. I did not I woke up at 05:45 in the morning and the race started @ 07:30. I did not eat anything prior to racing. This has been part of my training over the past 9 months. At mile 06 I took a GU. Up until that point I had only drank water. After mile 6 I drank Gatorade. I did weigh myself before and after the race. I lost 3.5 pounds during the race. The temp was 69 at start and low humidity. I only drank about 20 ounces of water during the race. Below are my splits and my HR.
1-07:45-157
2-07:53-160
3-07:55-161
4-07:28-165
05-07:50-167
6-07-45-168
7-07:35-170
8-07:58-179
9-07:45-177
10-08:35-172
11-08:19-165
12-08:36-172
13-07:30-177
I finished with a HR of 183 and my average HR was 169.
At mile 10 the wheels fell off. I remember telling myself about Jimmy's race report and how it was a mind game. I could not make my legs go any faster.
I am willing to listen to any and all.
Thanks, kcy

---

2 minutes slower than last year isn't a failure, it is what it is, and could be due to many reasons, including the occasional bad race that we all have (law of averages), or that the training didnt work.

Ist off, you say you went from 14:00 per mile to an 8:57 mile at 135 HR. Does that mean you didn't go over 135? What was the zone?
How far was this particular benchmark run with the 14:00 to 8:57?
How many miles per week did you put in training?
How many long runs of 18+ did you do?
Did you taper?
You did 9 months of just 135 and below? No tempo miles at race pace or race miles at all?
Do you normally race with a HRM? Did you last year?
Was there a difference in temp and humidity from last year's race?

If you were running 8:57 miles at 135 HR in training for runs of 13 miles or more, then going just a little over a minute harder shouldn't have pushed your HR so high IMO.

You certainly didn't start too fast in the race. You had one fast mile at 7:28, but nothing that would zap the ending of the race. You also managed a 7:30 pace the last mile. It seems you could have held a faster pace for the 3 miles before, and you slowed for some reason other than physical.

What's your max HR?

--Jimmy

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posted Sep-04-2006 06:22 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
probably so but as always, the more miles the merrier. I'm not sure
if breaking the runs apart has any effect, positive or negative on
the base-building progress.

---

Thanks for the reply.
Today I managed to get in 7.25 this morning and 3.75 this evening. Morning pace 13:39 & evening was 14:22 as the evening run was in London as compared to the country lanes for the morning I will put the slower pace down to busy streets.
But surely with miles like that I will eventually get there?
Roy

[This message has been edited by roy c (edited Sep-04-2006).]

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posted Sep-04-2006 06:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I'm beginning to see a pattern here. In all of the testers that use
an RQ of less than 1 for AT, (1) none maxed out the test and
(2) none showed the heart rate at every stage of the test. I
really don't understand this. It's pretty clear you did not max
out because you never hit an RQ of 1. And, although your
vo2 appeared to pick up and then dip down, it's not clear that
you did hit max because (1) I don't see what your HR was at
vo2max, (2) I don't see your HR at the stage just before
and just after vo2max, and (3) I don't see what the test
environment (incline and/or speed) at vo2max, just before,
and just after. Maybe there was some other indicator, but
if so, I don't see it. Clearly you didn't hit (or possibly even
come close to) max heart rate because that would happen
well after vo2max and well after RQ = 1. Oh well. At least
the test indicated that your aerobic threshold was right around
your MAF heart rate ...

---

Yeah, I don't think I maxed out......however, I don't think I was very far from max based on the way I felt. I was praying for him to stop the test when he did. I certainly don't think I could've held that pace for much longer, not with the mask on anyway.

The max speed was 8.5mph, once that was reached the incline was increased 1% every minute. I believe at the end of the test it was at 4 or 5 % incline (total test = 18 minutes). At 177HR I was struggling to say the least. I'll email him to see if the other data is available and ask a few other questions as well.......

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posted Sep-04-2006 07:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
I will try to take your questions one at a time.

---

Unfortunately, it was GregW responding and not Jesse

quote:

---

The course was not pancake flat but it was flat for the most part. There were not any killer hills. All the hills were short and had a small incline.

Last year I was running between 30-35 miles a wee prior to the race. This year my mileage has increased. The week prior to the race I ran 33 miles. I did taper. Prior to the 33 miles I had run 60 miles a week for the prior 3 weeks.

The weather was the same for both races.

---

There goes most of my possible explanations.

quote:

---

At mile 8 & 9 my HR increased. Then at mile 10 it decreased. I believe the decrease is due to my friend reminding me to drink. I had a few swalows of Gatorade and that could have caused my HR to decrease.

---

I'd say the reason your heart rate went down for miles 10-12 was because you slowed down. Why? I'm not sure. It could be because the previous two miles were too fast or at least your heart rate was too high.

The real mystery for me is mile 8. How did you go from 7:35/170 to 7:59/179. 9 bpm is a lot! Maybe the mile markers were misplaced?

quote:

---

Can you provide any insight into maffing kicking in at later miles?

---

I can't answer this, but I think "maffing kicking in" is just the absence of the wall kicking in.

quote:

---

I am going to try some 12,000 meter itnervals and finish up my long runs at marathon pace. Hopefully the problem was that my legs did not know how to run fast.

---

Marathon pace at the end of a long run sounds reasonable (if you do this try and record the distance and your heart rate for the MP portion). Not sure what 12K intervals are. Usually intervals are shorter (like 800m-1600m) and total 5K or less. 12K is even long for a tempo run.

Oh, I thought of one big question I forgot to ask. Do you know what you weighed last year and what you weighed this year?

Greg

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posted Sep-04-2006 08:56 PM            

I know I drink more than the average runner (I weigh 210 right now) but 20 ounces in that race for me would constitute trouble. When I down 6 ounces on a warm morning (75 ish with high humidity) my heart rate usually drops several bpm for a few minutes.

However, I don't believe given your weekly mileage that it should have affected you that much. I'm wondering if your lack of any tempo runs is more likely the cause.

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posted Sep-05-2006 05:04 AM               

edited to add - what did your training look like for the week leading
up and how did it compare to previous weeks? It would also be
interesting to see what a MAF training run would look like for you
for the days after the race.

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Sep-05-2006).]

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posted Sep-05-2006 12:45 PM            

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posted Sep-05-2006 02:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregw:
Your story is basically the same as mine. I ran a marathon and swore to keep 9mm and make 4 hours. I was at 20 miles almost at 3:00:17 (9:01) only to blow up at mile 23. I went out too fast early and let my heart rate creep in the 180s (above LT) and then it was just a matter of time. It was hot as hell too.

Does the red line look familiar? The blue line is a marathon I ran 8 weeks laters. 4:00:03 officially (ugh), but 3:59:56 on my watch -- no chip timing. I only did slow running between the two (not MAF, but <150 -- my MAF is 145) the too. However, I don't think I was in any better shape for the second. The difference was 1) weather and 2) better pacing. You can't control 1, but you can control 2. I don't think switching to MAF will help now (but back off some if you're really worn out).

My advice is to run as even splits as possible or better slightly negative. Even 10 sec/mile makes a difference. Run no faster (not one second!) than 4 hour pace over the first 20 miles. If you have your heart rate data from you last marathon you can use that as a guide. In my graph, you can see the barely perceptible 2-3 bpm difference over the first half. That was the difference for me.

How many miles per week are you running? If you adopt MAF, the thing you gain is being able to run more miles without too much strain. I'm not sure what the conventional wisdom is here, but I don't believe lower hr while running the same mileage will result in improvement. Maybe there's a counterexample?

Good luck. I know how you feel. I'm hoping to get that 4 seconds off my back in another 8 weeks.

Greg

---

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posted Sep-05-2006 02:18 PM            

Thanks for the advice. I am running about 30-35 miles per week which I assume is too low. I will try and increase this mileage and keep my HR < 145 until after the St George marathon at which time I will go over to a strict Maffetone protocol and see what it does for me.

Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregw:
Your story is basically the same as mine. I ran a marathon and swore to keep 9mm and make 4 hours. I was at 20 miles almost at 3:00:17 (9:01) only to blow up at mile 23. I went out too fast early and let my heart rate creep in the 180s (above LT) and then it was just a matter of time. It was hot as hell too.

Does the red line look familiar? The blue line is a marathon I ran 8 weeks laters. 4:00:03 officially (ugh), but 3:59:56 on my watch -- no chip timing. I only did slow running between the two (not MAF, but <150 -- my MAF is 145) the too. However, I don't think I was in any better shape for the second. The difference was 1) weather and 2) better pacing. You can't control 1, but you can control 2. I don't think switching to MAF will help now (but back off some if you're really worn out).

My advice is to run as even splits as possible or better slightly negative. Even 10 sec/mile makes a difference. Run no faster (not one second!) than 4 hour pace over the first 20 miles. If you have your heart rate data from you last marathon you can use that as a guide. In my graph, you can see the barely perceptible 2-3 bpm difference over the first half. That was the difference for me.

How many miles per week are you running? If you adopt MAF, the thing you gain is being able to run more miles without too much strain. I'm not sure what the conventional wisdom is here, but I don't believe lower hr while running the same mileage will result in improvement. Maybe there's a counterexample?

Good luck. I know how you feel. I'm hoping to get that 4 seconds off my back in another 8 weeks.

Greg

---

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posted Sep-05-2006 04:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Hmm, this will be an interesting one to look at. Do you know what
the dew point was at the end of the race? Dehydration is certainly
a factor - that's a good bit of weight loss for the end of a half, but
it's not the complete cause. Of course, it is possible that you need
some additional stimulation. However, can you post your splits and
avg heart rate per split for each of your last few training runs,
especially long runs? It would be interesting to compare. It just
sounds like your pace was not terribly faster than your training
pace at MAF and that would be my first thing to peruse.

edited to add - what did your training look like for the week leading
up and how did it compare to previous weeks? It would also be
interesting to see what a MAF training run would look like for you
for the days after the race.

---

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posted Sep-05-2006 06:31 PM               

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posted Sep-05-2006 09:49 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:

I agree..."Hmm, this will be an interesting one to look at." Where to start.....
My MAF test has been 4 miles and my HR is at 135 this has been done on a TM. I have had several runs greater than 13 miles and at a 09:30 pace my HR tops out at 155. In a few posts it was mentioned that something other than physical could have been the problem. The race was small, 350, runners and I do feed off of the dynamics of larger crowds. I also question my mental toughness during the race. After MAFing for 9 months I might have had the mind set that the half would be easy.
As far as splits and HR that is something I do not have. My HRM is only real time. During the race I had a friend ride his bike and I yelled out the HR at each mile marker. He then recorded it on a tape player.
At the time of the race the Dew Point was 63. I am not sure how much this contributed to the weight loss (3.5 lbs). I do believe that the weight loss played a significant role. This explains why I have been out of at the end of my marathons.
One thing that I have noticed is my quads and thighs are sore and hurt. It could be that my training was not as optimal as it could have been.
The week prior to the race I did a taper and went from 60 miles to 33 miles. My legs should have been fresh but they may not have been able to run at the pace I desired.
Last month I put in 247 miles. It is a personal best. I contribute this to MAF. MAF has allowed me to build a base. Now it is time to do some speed work.
After taking Monday off and not running I did 6.5 on the TM on Tuesday. I was unable to keep my HR @ MAF while I did 4 miles at 08:57. In the past this was not a problem. Today my HR averaged 142bpm for the same 4 miles.
What does this mean...I am not sure. I do believe that MAF has allowed me to build a good base. Now I will try adding some 1,200 meter speed work into my training.
Thanks for all of the input.
kcy

---

Looking at your splits, I believe you could have gone faster the last 4 miles, especially since your last mile's pace was one of your fastest.
If you had hit the wall, you couldn't have done that. Doesn't mean you weren't tired, but tired legs don't equal slow legs. It was mental slowing all the way. Nothing wrong with that. It's a learning curve.

Also, did you do all your training on the treadmill?
How far were your long runs, and how often?
Absolutely no miles at race pace in training?

Did you measure the decay in pace between the first and last miles in your MAF tests? It's an important factor in determining aerobic progress.
As important as increase in pace in my book.

--Jimmy

Current MAF Training
My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Sep-06-2006).]

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posted Sep-05-2006 10:32 PM               

You mention that your Maff TM tests are done at 135bpm...I assume this is your Maff number? If so, why are you doing 13+ mile training runs at 9:30 pace that top out at 155bpm? Unless I'm missing something (which is very possible because I haven't read the entire thread), you're not really doing Maff training. The point of Maff is to stick to a specific training intensity regardless of distance, terrain or weather.

If your HR at 9:30 pace is 155, I'm not at all surprised that it's very high at sub 8:00 pace. Was there a period where you stayed below 135 for every run? How long was it? Sorry if you've answered these already.

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posted Sep-07-2006 08:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
kcy - it probably is time for some speed work. The important
thing is, what type. Fast finishes, hills, tempos, where to begin?
I like the fast finishes myself and I think they are the best training
for marathons. Tempos probably have the most direct relevance.
Before all this, I would try "aerobic" speed work, if you have such
an option (really would help to live in San Francisco). Long runs
on downhills. Fast turnover, low heart rate, good quad training.
Maybe sprinkle in a few 5ks and 10ks here and there. Try to
keep a good 80% or more of your weekly mileage below MAF (otherwise
you'll slow down a lot at the low HRs).

---

Jesse,
You are probably correct. I am going to give it a try and keep my maf below 80%.
thanks for the input. kcy

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posted Sep-07-2006 08:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Looking at your splits, I believe you could have gone faster the last 4 miles, especially since your last mile's pace was one of your fastest.
If you had hit the wall, you couldn't have done that. Doesn't mean you weren't tired, but tired legs don't equal slow legs. It was mental slowing all the way. Nothing wrong with that. It's a learning curve.

Also, did you do all your training on the treadmill?
How far were your long runs, and how often?
Absolutely no miles at race pace in training?

Did you measure the decay in pace between the first and last miles in your MAF tests? It's an important factor in determining aerobic progress.
As important as increase in pace in my book.

--Jimmy

Current MAF Training
My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Sep-06-2006).]

---

Jimmy,
Probably about 80% of my training has been on the TM. Usually Sat and Sundays are outside. My long runs have been between 15-18 miles. I have at least 4 of these in the last month. It is good to hear that I probably did not hit the wall because of my last mile time. I tend to agree with you that my legs were tired but not that does not translate into a slow time.
Thanks for the input, kcy

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posted Sep-07-2006 08:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
kcy,

You mention that your Maff TM tests are done at 135bpm...I assume this is your Maff number? If so, why are you doing 13+ mile training runs at 9:30 pace that top out at 155bpm? Unless I'm missing something (which is very possible because I haven't read the entire thread), you're not really doing Maff training. The point of Maff is to stick to a specific training intensity regardless of distance, terrain or weather.

If your HR at 9:30 pace is 155, I'm not at all surprised that it's very high at sub 8:00 pace. Was there a period where you stayed below 135 for every run? How long was it? Sorry if you've answered these already.

---

ahammer,
You are not missing anything. My maf test has been done on a TM @ a 08:57 pace. On Saturday I run w\ some friends outside @ a 09:30 pace.Taking into consideration the summer temps and humidity this is why my HR maxes out at 155 near the end of a 16 mile run. Technically then I have not been running all of my runs @ 135 since January.
kcy

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posted Sep-07-2006 06:23 PM               

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posted Sep-07-2006 06:50 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
ahammer,
You are not missing anything. My maf test has been done on a TM @ a 08:57 pace. On Saturday I run w\ some friends outside @ a 09:30 pace.Taking into consideration the summer temps and humidity this is why my HR maxes out at 155 near the end of a 16 mile run. Technically then I have not been running all of my runs @ 135 since January.
kcy

---

It sounds like I have missed something that Jimmy and aharmer
have caught. So, towards the end of your runs, your heart rate
has been drifting over MAF by sometimes quite a bit? I know that
I went through a phase where I just wasn't keeping close track
and my aerobic system slowly fizzled out during that period. It
took me a couple of months to rebuild. It's funny because your
results are similar to a friend of mine at work who I've got doing
this because he's got no choice due to some achilles heal problems
he has been plagued with (which have gone away when he keeps
his heart rate low). He cannot record splits on his watch either
and he just eyeballs the HR monitor periodically. I'll occasionally
run with him when we are on travel to the same location and I'll
ask him his heart rate 5-10 miles into a run on a hill and it's
almost always 10-25 beats high. Since I can't analyze all of
your splits from training runs the last few months, I have no
way to tell what's going on and I just assumed that you were
keeping everything strictly below MAF. If you haven't, then
that tells very much of a story. This stuff just doesn't work
half way, it's pretty much all or nothing, at least during the
primary phase.

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posted Sep-07-2006 11:09 PM               

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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posted Sep-07-2006 11:40 PM            

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posted Sep-09-2006 08:03 AM            

Anyway, it's been about 2 months since my last test and I've seen pretty good improvement. The weather was a little better today but pretty comparable to the last test.

Weather
5/13 - 56F temp/53F dew pt.
6/03 - 66F temp/60F dew pt.
6/24 - 70F temp/67F dew pt.
7/10 - 67F temp/58F dew pt.
9/09 - 63F temp/58F dew pt

Warmup (a little over two miles)
5/13 - 21:04/131
6/03 - 22:49/131
6/24 - 22:13/133
7/10 - 22:28/130
9/09 - 22:01/130

______5/13__6/3__6/24__7/10__9/09
Mile 1 09:18 09:59 09:53 09:30 09:11
Mile 2 09:32 10:02 10:01 09:32 09:18
Mile 3 09:35 09:57 09:54 09:34 09:19
Mile 4 09:45 09:59 10:09 09:38 09:22
Mile 5 09:52 10:05 10:19 09:45 09:25

Overall things looks pretty good for me to knock some time off my 4:00 marathon. I'm kinda hoping for a 3:49, which would be an even hour better than last year's MCM.

Greg

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posted Sep-09-2006 01:59 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregw:
I've fallen somewhat off the wagon with Maff base-building since I ran an 8K race on 7/15. I also ran a 10-miler on 8/27 and have been "cheating" on my long runs, running the last 1/3 to 1/2 at greater than MAF (145 for me).

Anyway, it's been about 2 months since my last test and I've seen pretty good improvement. The weather was a little better today but pretty comparable to the last test.

Weather
5/13 - 56F temp/53F dew pt.
6/03 - 66F temp/60F dew pt.
6/24 - 70F temp/67F dew pt.
7/10 - 67F temp/58F dew pt.
9/09 - 63F temp/58F dew pt

Warmup (a little over two miles)
5/13 - 21:04/131
6/03 - 22:49/131
6/24 - 22:13/133
7/10 - 22:28/130
9/09 - 22:01/130

______5/13__6/3__6/24__7/10__9/09
Mile 1 09:18 09:59 09:53 09:30 09:11
Mile 2 09:32 10:02 10:01 09:32 09:18
Mile 3 09:35 09:57 09:54 09:34 09:19
Mile 4 09:45 09:59 10:09 09:38 09:22
Mile 5 09:52 10:05 10:19 09:45 09:25

Overall things looks pretty good for me to knock some time off my 4:00 marathon. I'm kinda hoping for a 3:49, which would be an even hour better than last year's MCM.

Greg

---

The percent of decay between mile 1 and 5 on your tests:
5/13...6.09%
6/3.....1.00%
6/24...4.38%
7/10...2.63%
9/09...2.54%

You really aren't slowing much at all keeping your ave. HR at 145. That's a good sign, in addition to your paces dropping.
Was 6/3 correct? Seems like an anomaly.

How fast are your long runs using MAF as a ceiling?

How did the 8k and 10 miler go? Did you happen to wear your HRM to see what your HR was doing at those speeds?

I'm just curious. Your MAF test is just a little behind what mine was for the Sugarloaf and last year's Philly. From that, I don't see you having a problem breaking 4 hours.

BTW, if your marathon is getting close, you should be thinking about dream marathon race pace tempo miles in addition to MAF. It's not cheating. After a good long block of MAF, you need to get some race pace in to wake your legs up a bit.

--Jimmy

Current MAF Training
My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

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posted Sep-09-2006 03:28 PM            

Thanks for the reply.

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
You really aren't slowing much at all keeping your ave. HR at 145. That's a good sign, in addition to your paces dropping.
Was 6/3 correct? Seems like an anomaly.

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During the 6/3 test, a cold front blew through and it went from 69F/65F dew pt at the start to 64F/55F at the end! Looking at my HRM program, my average hr for the 5 splits was 144, 144, 145, 145, 145 so I got an extra bpm in the later splits also.

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How fast are your long runs using MAF as a ceiling?

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Not sure what you mean, since I'm not using MAF as a ceiling on my long runs anymore. I start out that way, but can't maintain pace and stay under MAF despite starting very slowly (average MAF-15 for first 5 miles or so). Last strict Maff long run I could find was 7/9 when I ran 16.5 at 11:02 pace and 138 bpm average. Last mile and a half or so of that run was 12:18/144 with the HRM beeping at me all the time. I think that's when I decided I wasn't going to be able to increase my long run distance at Maff (at least not in the summer) without completely crawling.

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How did the 8k and 10 miler go? Did you happen to wear your HRM to see what your HR was doing at those speeds?

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Both went well. 8k was 39:05 (average hr 186) which is very slow compared my 10K of 47:21 in February, but this was a hilly race on a mid-July evening. I was less than 30 seconds behind a friend of mine who finished 4 minutes ahead of me at a 10-miler (1:19:25/182 bpm) in April so I consider it an improvement. At the 10-miler, a late August warm and hilly affair, I finished in 1:18:33 (183)-- a new PR, almost a minute ahead of the friend who finished 4 mins ahead of me in April, and 2 seconds in front of martinjames

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BTW, if your marathon is getting close, you should be thinking about dream marathon race pace tempo miles in addition to MAF. It's not cheating. After a good long block of MAF, you need to get some race pace in to wake your legs up a bit.

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I'm running the Army 10-miler 3 weeks before MCM. I'm debating whether to run a 20-mile race five weeks out. The plan would be to run 10 or more miles easy (like below MAF) and then do the last 10 or less at marathon pace. I haven't decided though -- I'm not sure I'm that disciplined and I'm nursing plantar fasciitis.

Greg

[This message has been edited by gregw (edited Sep-09-2006).]

[This message has been edited by gregw (edited Sep-09-2006).]

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