posted Aug-27-2006 09:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

It goes like this:

Keep your heart rate for regular training UNDER your MAF. Create a zone
that is MAF-15 to no more than your MAF (some of us don't bother going near the upper limit and stay under -5 or -10)

An MAF test is particular run of 3-5 miles you do where you try to average your MAF for each mile. Warm up a few miles first, then do the test. Keep track of the of each mile's pace and ave. HR. Then do that test once every few weeks to a month. The best bet is to try to do the test on the same course on the same conditions (I use a treadmill for mine). Then you use the test to measure progress. You can also measure your progress just by comparing similar runs of any distance on the same course over time.

If you're interested in this training, you might want to read Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

It's where all this comes from.

Good luck.

--Jimmy

Current MAF Training
My Running World

---

Thanks Jimmy. You've given me some great feedback in my other post as well. I went to Barnes & Noble but they didn't have the Maffetone book, so I am going to order it online.
I understand the test now, but wondering - is the formula to calculate your MAF in the FAQs? Can't seem to find it.

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posted Aug-27-2006 12:31 PM            

Anyway, I shocked myself today by setting a PR at the annapolis 10-miler in 1:18:33. It's a hot, hilly race (77F at the start, 69 dew pt but didn't really feel quite that bad). My PR set at the April Cherry Blossom on a flat course in ideal weather was 1:19:25. I have dropped 1-2 lbs which could explain a 1 minute improvement except for the fact for the significant difference in weather and hills between the races so I'm going to credit this to some actual endurance improvement. I also felt great at the end.

Keep it up MAFFers!

Greg

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posted Aug-27-2006 01:49 PM            

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posted Aug-27-2006 03:47 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by runawayjesse:

How accurate is that formula? I purposly put on 5 lbs of stright muscle mass and didn't notice any slowing.

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This is something I've read in a few articles here and there. The formula is based on simple physics I do believe. I don't know the exact formula, so I did a quick search and couldn't find the exact formula. So I talked with my smart Sweetipie and she actually figured out a formula for me, but I didn't grok it, as I just ran 20 miles or maybe I'm just dumb. But I did get this explanation: Imagine a train car on a flat rail being propelled by an engine exerting a constant, unchanging force, the car is full of 1 pound rocks. As you pull out 1 rock, the speed will increase a little. Pull out another, a little more. Works the same in reverse as you add rocks (weight) to the car.

The thing with human beings though is that you can increase your power (muscle) to offset a certain amount of weight gain, as you probably have.
If you were to gain 5 pounds of fat, without gaining more power (muscle), maybe you would experience a little slowing.

It doesn't take an aerospace engineer to see that it takes more and more force to maintain a certain speed as you carry heavier and heavier weight. Though I need an aerospace engineer (Jess, you know one?) to give me a formula I can understand.

--Jimmy

Current MAF Training
My Running World
MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Aug-27-2006).]

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posted Aug-27-2006 09:31 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

As you pull out 1 rock, the speed will increase a little. Pull out another, a little more. Works the same in reverse as you add rocks (weight) to the car.
...

It doesn't take an aerospace engineer to see that it takes more and more force to maintain a certain speed as you carry heavier and heavier weight. Though I need an aerospace engineer (Jess, you know one?) to give me a formula I can understand.

---

Haha, this is the qualitative version of the rocket equation (look it
up, if you so desire!). Nonetheless, I was faster
at a higher weight, but that's because my fitness became much
greater to overcompensate for the additional weight.

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posted Aug-28-2006 08:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Awesome, Chuck! Glad to see some other MMtri's reaping the
benefits. I've been poisoning Bob B. with it as well as he's preparing
for MCM as well. I'm trying to keep him from jumping into speed work
too soon (he seems to be making great progress).

---

Yeah, I'm loving it! I have an IM planned for next summer so I'm looking forward to building a HUUGGGEEEE base this winter/spring (which I've never truly done) and hopefully that translates well to a good first IM.......

just did the A10 yesterday in 1:36 with a AHR of 150....so considering the hills and heat/humidity I'll take it. Felt very comfortable and strong throughout.

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posted Aug-28-2006 03:06 PM               

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I used to hate running like I hate green-beans.

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posted Aug-28-2006 03:29 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by dalby1976:
... I've noticed that even though the pace is easier, there are a lot of aches in my ankles, knees, and hips while I run.

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I noticed this too about the knees and hips hurting more, when running slower. I think I have to fight going faster and my feet are putting on the brakes when I land.

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posted Aug-28-2006 03:32 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dalby1976:
... I've noticed that even though the pace is easier, there are a lot of aches in my ankles, knees, and hips while I run.

---

I noticed this too about the knees and hips hurting more, when running slower. I think I have to fight going faster and my feet are putting on the brakes when I land.

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posted Aug-28-2006 06:03 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckp88:
Yeah, I'm loving it! I have an IM planned for next summer so I'm looking forward to building a HUUGGGEEEE base this winter/spring (which I've never truly done) and hopefully that translates well to a good first IM.......

just did the A10 yesterday in 1:36 with a AHR of 150....so considering the hills and heat/humidity I'll take it. Felt very comfortable and strong throughout.

---

Great! Sounds like you ran A10 at pretty low heart rate - not racing
all out, is that right?

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posted Aug-28-2006 06:06 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dalby1976:
Alright guys......I'm giving this low-heart training thing a go. I can no longer deny that it makes a lot of sense, and after reading some of the results posted by runners on this forum, I decided to give it a try. I've been going for about a week now, and so far I feel great. I find that I can run at, or below my MAF number with no problem. That is, until after about an hour of running. After that, my heart rate goes up and stays up. Is this normal for early on in the training? Is this just a natural result of dehydration and fatigue? I never paid too much attention to my HR before I put on the HR monitor. I don't really feel fatigued, in fact, I feel like I could go all day, but my HR dictates that I start walking, even up small hills, after about an hour. I have to admit that I sweat profusely at my MAF heartrate. I love that part of it. Also, I've noticed that even though the pace is easier, there are a lot of aches in my ankles, knees, and hips while I run. Nothing that stays with me after the run that would be indicative of an injury, but general fatigue throughout my joints. Is this just my legs preparing to become stronger? I know that the low heartrate training FAQ said that your legs and hips become signifigantly stronger during the training. Might this be what I'm feeling? Thanks guys!

---

Weigh yourself before and after your runs and you'll know whether
it's dehydration, lack of heat acclimation, or if your aerobic fitness
is not fully developed.

Here's FAQ 28:
28. I have a new type of soreness after doing this for a couple of weeks. Is something wrong?

No, this is natural. The initial slow down will be effectively a new form of cross-training. After a couple of weeks your body will get used to it and shortly thereafter your pace will start to improve.

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posted Aug-29-2006 07:57 AM            

I'm getting a VO2 max test done on Wednesday of this week.....I'm hoping this will give me an idea of the HR at which I can race. I've read were you race at 170 (threshold of 177ish).....is that consistent across all distances (up to the marathon).

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Great! Sounds like you ran A10 at pretty low heart rate - not racing
all out, is that right?

---

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posted Aug-29-2006 06:04 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckp88:

I'm getting a VO2 max test done on Wednesday of this week.....I'm hoping this will give me an idea of the HR at which I can race. I've read were you race at 170 (threshold of 177ish).....is that consistent across all distances (up to the marathon).

---

Cool - make sure they provide your respiratory quotient at your
range of heart rates during the test. They will likely tell you that
you should be training at 20 beats or more higher than MAF.
I run different HR ranges for all different distances, but it's never
one single heart rate for an entire race.

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posted Aug-29-2006 10:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
GregW -- take the credit. I ran the same race and the heat and humidity killed me. EVERY time this summer, it's killed me. Either that or I'm doing something wrong because I'm running a lot more than I ever have, predominantly at <75% and I still ran 20 secs/mile slower than I'd hoped (I was just shooting for marathon goal pace). Very disappointing, which makes me think that your time is much better than you credit it.

---

Thanks for the vote of confidence. You're probably right that I wasn't giving myself enough credit and you also probably shouldn't be quite so disappointed. A couple of friends ran and both finished A10 about four minutes slower than their cherry blossom times this year (including one who finished 4 minutes ahead of me at CB and 1 minutes behind this time ). Are you running the Army 10-miler? Hopefully the weather will cooperate there. I'm going to use that to figure out just where I'm at for MCM. I ran this one for the fleece pullover (the hills and humidity were a bonus!).

Greg

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posted Aug-30-2006 06:09 AM            

Well, I'm interested. Below I'm going to cut and paste some questions that have come to mind as I've been reading these posts. I'm up to page 7 - and it's taken me a few days already! Sorry if the questions have been answered before, but it will take me weeks to read all 41 pages! I'm sure I'll come up with more questions later, I just keep my word doc open and type what I'm wondering as I read!

Here goes...

1. The reason I’m interested in maf training is that my 5km time (29:27) did not correlate with my 10km (1h 9m 27s) and 14km (99m 9s) times in recent races. My goal for the moment is to run a HM in about 5-6months without dying at the end, and if possible in a decent time (2h 15 would be nice).
2. I have read that low mileage per week is not really suitable for this kind of training. What kind of mileage do you need to be at before starting? (I currently run between about 25 and 30km a week).
3. I am impressed with some of the pace improvements that other people have talked about. However my current pace for most runs is about 7:15 to 8:30 mins per km (I’m from Australia where we’ve moved on to metric!) Does it matter that I have not run much faster than this before? That is, most people seem to be improving their aerobic capacity back to paces they used to run at previously.
4. The FAQ suggests trying this for 12 weeks. Is there any detriment to doing this for longer.. say 6 months?
5. Is it just as simple as running for 12 weeks at a heart rate of 180 – 27(my age) = 153? Do I need to do the test parts? If so, what are the minimum
6. What is your lactate threshold and vo2 max? How (or are) they related to maf heartrate?
7. I run in a very hilly are and I don’t have access to using a TM all the time. Will that be much of a problem, or am I just going to spending some time walking? (I don’t mind running slowly, but I will mind walking).

OK that's enough for now, and for you guys to answer! Thanks for all the work you've put in on this threa... I'll keep reading!

Chisholm

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posted Aug-30-2006 10:11 AM            

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posted Aug-30-2006 10:13 AM            

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posted Aug-30-2006 06:29 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by chisholm:
Hi guys,

Well, I'm interested. Below I'm going to cut and paste some questions that have come to mind as I've been reading these posts. I'm up to page 7 - and it's taken me a few days already! Sorry if the questions have been answered before, but it will take me weeks to read all 41 pages! I'm sure I'll come up with more questions later, I just keep my word doc open and type what I'm wondering as I read!

Here goes...

1. The reason I’m interested in maf training is that my 5km time (29:27) did not correlate with my 10km (1h 9m 27s) and 14km (99m 9s) times in recent races. My goal for the moment is to run a HM in about 5-6months without dying at the end, and if possible in a decent time (2h 15 would be nice).
2. I have read that low mileage per week is not really suitable for this kind of training. What kind of mileage do you need to be at before starting? (I currently run between about 25 and 30km a week).
3. I am impressed with some of the pace improvements that other people have talked about. However my current pace for most runs is about 7:15 to 8:30 mins per km (I’m from Australia where we’ve moved on to metric!) Does it matter that I have not run much faster than this before? That is, most people seem to be improving their aerobic capacity back to paces they used to run at previously.
4. The FAQ suggests trying this for 12 weeks. Is there any detriment to doing this for longer.. say 6 months?
5. Is it just as simple as running for 12 weeks at a heart rate of 180 – 27(my age) = 153? Do I need to do the test parts? If so, what are the minimum
6. What is your lactate threshold and vo2 max? How (or are) they related to maf heartrate?
7. I run in a very hilly are and I don’t have access to using a TM all the time. Will that be much of a problem, or am I just going to spending some time walking? (I don’t mind running slowly, but I will mind walking).

OK that's enough for now, and for you guys to answer! Thanks for all the work you've put in on this threa... I'll keep reading!

Chisholm

---

If you think this thread is long, you should have seen the last one!

1. ok, sounds about right
2. no minimum before starting, but hopefully you can work up to
at least about 40k per week (some have improved with less, it
just takes longer)
3. doesn't matter what your pace is
4. I did it for about 8 months the first time and saw incredible results.
In fact, I just permanently do it, mixing in frequent races.
5. It's as simple as that, but you should target 5-10, maybe even
15 beats lower, as long as it doesn't force you to walk most of the
time.
6. there are many defs of LT (you should do some googling around),
but basically it's the heart rate at which your muscles start to saturate
with lactic acid, shortly thereafter bringing you to a screeching halt.
7. you may have to learn how to do "the wog" and putter up some
of the hills. some you may have to walk for a bit. I have nothing
but large hills around here.

good luck

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posted Aug-31-2006 06:09 AM            

Another question that has come to mind (I'm up to page 13 now!)

I've read over and over that this should be started as a base building exercise. This is obviously usually in winter, since there are few races. I live in Australia, where it's almost spring, and therefore coming into our racing season. Now, I'm now speed demon so I don't mind forgoing some races, but I was thinking of joining a local running club that does a 10k race once a month. Mostly I'd be doing it for the social factor, but at the moment, even if I went at my fastest, I'd be one of the last to finish each month in the 10k. They don't have any training runs, the races are it so I don't have the choice of joining in on slower runs.

Would there be any benefit at all in running at MAF for every other run and doing this one race a month? I guess I can see that it's counterproductive in a sense but I just wonder how much difference once a month would make. On re reading this part I think maybe I sound like I am looking for permission to cheat on the plan - that's not it at all - I'm just trying to weigh up options. Perhaps this is a compromise if I don't start MAF training proper until after this season of racing is over. On the other hand, reading all of this has made me wonder whether it's worth racing yet, since I'm obvioulsy not as aerobically fit as I thought I was and my times are not what I would like them to be.

Now on rereading I think I sound confused, and I guess I am. Hope all the questions aren't too annoying, it's my way of trying to sort through what I want to do in my head. Thanks for the help!

Chisholm

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posted Aug-31-2006 06:20 AM            

I'd like to know if you think that doing some short drills (80-100m) after the run can be bad for this training.

I love to do drills after a run, they make me feel better, and my legs seem to feel better to and to learn how to run fast.

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posted Aug-31-2006 07:34 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by chisholm:
Thanks for the speedy reply.

Another question that has come to mind (I'm up to page 13 now!)

I've read over and over that this should be started as a base building exercise. This is obviously usually in winter, since there are few races. I live in Australia, where it's almost spring, and therefore coming into our racing season. Now, I'm now speed demon so I don't mind forgoing some races, but I was thinking of joining a local running club that does a 10k race once a month. Mostly I'd be doing it for the social factor, but at the moment, even if I went at my fastest, I'd be one of the last to finish each month in the 10k. They don't have any training runs, the races are it so I don't have the choice of joining in on slower runs.

Would there be any benefit at all in running at MAF for every other run and doing this one race a month? I guess I can see that it's counterproductive in a sense but I just wonder how much difference once a month would make. On re reading this part I think maybe I sound like I am looking for permission to cheat on the plan - that's not it at all - I'm just trying to weigh up options. Perhaps this is a compromise if I don't start MAF training proper until after this season of racing is over. On the other hand, reading all of this has made me wonder whether it's worth racing yet, since I'm obvioulsy not as aerobically fit as I thought I was and my times are not what I would like them to be.

Now on rereading I think I sound confused, and I guess I am. Hope all the questions aren't too annoying, it's my way of trying to sort through what I want to do in my head. Thanks for the help!

Chisholm

---

The point of aerobic base training, MAF style or not, is to do a period of time where all you do is work aerobically. Then you add in the faster stuff like races. You have to ask yourself what your goals are, why you are attempting MAF training to begin with. What's the purpose? If your goal is to run a 10k race every month, then that's your goal. MAF won't hurt that pursuit. If your goal is to create a solid aerobic base in order to run your best half marathon or marathon, then doing nothing but MAF for 12-16 weeks or more might be the thing to do. MAF training is a means to an end, not the goal. So, whatever your ultimate goals are, make your decisions based on that. Never discount the spirit and practice of experimentation. You might find racing once a month and doing MAF training on the other 29-30 days will work great for you, and your main goal (whatever that is) served rather well. Or not. Only one way to find out.

TO ILLUSTRATE:
I've been experimenting with different methods for the past three years. There are so many points of view coming at a beginner about what is the best way to train. So, I figured I would try most of them. How else was I to find out what is best for me? Currently, I have a goal to PR at the Philadelphia Marathon. I've chosen to experiment with a solid 14-week block of training at or below MAF -10, with a few miles at the end of long runs creeping up to MAF-5. A few MAF tests at MAF. I experimented in the spring with peaking out at MAF all the time. I wanted to see what would happen if I peaked out at MAF -10 while adding to a higher volume of 80-100 miles per week. A few weeks out from the marathon, I will insert 2-3 race pace tempo runs to zero in on a race pace. Nothing faster than that. No racing until the marathon. That's my experiment. It all serves the goal of running a marathon the best I can.

Good luck.

--Jimmy

Current MAF Training
My Running World

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Aug-31-2006).]

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posted Aug-31-2006 10:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Cool - make sure they provide your respiratory quotient at your
range of heart rates during the test. They will likely tell you that
you should be training at 20 beats or more higher than MAF.
I run different HR ranges for all different distances, but it's never
one single heart rate for an entire race.

---

VO2 Max Test Results:
VO2max = 50.1
Aerobic Threshold @ 143 (RQ = .81)
Anaerobic Threshold @ 162 (RQ = .86)

my MAF = 145 (180-35)

he said he could tell that I've been doing a lot of low intensity training....fat utilization was very efficient at AT and below.

I'll test again in the spring and compare results......nothing but MAF this winter

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posted Aug-31-2006 03:01 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckp88:
VO2 Max Test Results:
VO2max = 50.1
Aerobic Threshold @ 143 (RQ = .81)
Anaerobic Threshold @ 162 (RQ = .86)

my MAF = 145 (180-35)

he said he could tell that I've been doing a lot of low intensity training....fat utilization was very efficient at AT and below.

I'll test again in the spring and compare results......nothing but MAF this winter

---

Did your Health Insurance pay for it?

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posted Aug-31-2006 03:51 PM               

I still have questions concerning their definition of anaerobic threshold on these tests. My results said my AT was 166 (RQ=.81). I ran a very difficult 8 mile trail race this past Sunday. My average heart rate was 177 and was never below 170 after the first mile. Am I confusing LT with AT or are they interchangeable?

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posted Aug-31-2006 06:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckp88:
VO2 Max Test Results:
VO2max = 50.1
Aerobic Threshold @ 143 (RQ = .81)
Anaerobic Threshold @ 162 (RQ = .86)

my MAF = 145 (180-35)

he said he could tell that I've been doing a lot of low intensity training....fat utilization was very efficient at AT and below.

I'll test again in the spring and compare results......nothing but MAF this winter

---

This is another of these vo2max testers that uses a very strange
definition for anaerobic threshold. Most define anaerobic threshold
as the point where RQ = 1 (the point where you hit 100% carb/0% fat).
The aerobic threshold is reasonable (65% fat/35% carb). It's a bit
funny to define anaerobic threshold as the point at which you just
start to use more carb than fat (52% carb/48% fat). Were you
provided your entire history of RQ over the entire test? Did you max
out your heart rate during your test or was it sub-maximum?
Specifically, did you go past your vo2max to the point where your
vo2 started to decrease as heart rate still increased?

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