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Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen

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Author	Topic: Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen
leitnerj Cool Runner	posted Aug-23-2006 11:41 PM Yep, it should feel too easy. If you feel guilty, like you're not doing anything and wasting your time, then you're right on. ------------------ MyRunningLog MyStuff Low Heart Rate Training FAQ My marathons and ultras My races and reports IP: Logged
jjwaverly42 Cool Runner	posted Aug-24-2006 12:39 AM quote: Originally posted by leitnerj: Yep, it should feel too easy. If you feel guilty, like you're not doing anything and wasting your time, then you're right on. That's a relief. Does it also apply to TV, Coolrunning, and the slots? --Jimmy Current MAF Training My Running World IP: Logged
leitnerj Cool Runner	posted Aug-24-2006 12:49 AM quote: Originally posted by jjwaverly42: That's a relief. Does it also apply to TV, Coolrunning, and the slots? --Jimmy Current MAF Training My Running World TV and coolrunning should be entirely indistinguishable from MAF running, but the slots may get your HR cranked up too much. ------------------ MyRunningLog MyStuff Low Heart Rate Training FAQ My marathons and ultras My races and reports IP: Logged
Cashmason Cool Runner	posted Aug-24-2006 02:43 AM Copasetic, if you feel like a dripping bag of sweat after a run, you didn't do a Maf run, but you probably feel like you got a proper workout in. If you feel like you didn't do much and could go out and do it again, Yes you are doing it right. But you may feel guilty about not getting a real workout. The thing is you did get in a great workout and are building up your endurance and mitochondria, it just doesn't feel that way. IP: Logged
copasetic1 Cool Runner	posted Aug-24-2006 07:19 AM This is great to hear. I do end up like a dripping bag of sweat, but I'll chalk that up to the 90-degree temps we've been having here. I'm going to stick with this for a while, even if it's for no other reason than enjoying my runs a bit more. And I'll avoid the slots for now; maybe they'd be good in place of intervals farther down the line. IP: Logged
breger1 Cool Runner	posted Aug-24-2006 08:10 AM A quick comment about my run this morning in relation to yesterday's post. I wrote that I couldn't get my head around running at MAF or even MAF+5. But this morning I took a 5 mile recovery run and it ended up being 9:40 min/mile pace with an average of 131 BPM, which would be my MAF+5 number if I was following MAF. That is <65% of my HRR. So all in all, I guess both HR programs end up at the same place! Bill ------------------ Bill's Profile IP: Logged
chuckp88 Member	posted Aug-24-2006 07:04 PM I've been following this thread for awhile and thought I'd drop in and let folks know my progress has gone since starting MAF training. I started MAF training back in June (15th to be exact) after I decided to sign up for my first marathon (Marine Corp in October). Never having gone the distance before I thought this seemed like a good approach. Although I had read the books a couple years ago, never stuck with it mostly due to doing shorter races/triathlons and feeling like I needed more intensity for the shorter stuff. Yes it was slow starting out but I was enjoying the runs and my goal was a marathon over 4 months away so I went with it. To date, I've done 3 MAF tests indoors on a treadmill, 0% incline. Date Mile 1 (warm up)/HR Mile 2/HR Mile 3/HR Mile 4/HR 6/29 10:16/127 9:06/145 9:25/145 9:54/144 7/18 10:34/120 8:33/144 9:00/144 9:14/144 8/24 9:50/127 7:53/145 8:11/145 8:32/145 So with about 10 weeks of MAF training I feel the progress has been pretty significant....and best of all, ENJOYABLE & INJURY FREE. The HEAT definitely plays a BIG factor in my HR,, on cooler days I can be an entire min/mile faster at the same effort.....looking forward to the Fall weather! I'll keep everyone posted as I experiment, also signed up for my first Ironman next June and all my trainig is going to be MAF. Jesse, I follow you on MidMD's group (i'm a member but live in Cambridge.....Eagleman!). I look forward to your race reports! Great job at Pike's Peak! If the marathon goes well I may give Hinte Hat 50K a try in March. Happy Training, Chuck Potter IP: Logged
RacerRick69 Cool Runner	posted Aug-24-2006 09:28 PM I did my first "MAF" test today. I used 80% of max HR (0.8 * 183 = 146). 180 - age (47)=133 and I get up to that just walking. 70% HRR is 144. To keep my HR below 146, I had to run at 4 MPH and walk twice each 400. Mannn!!! That was an average of 14:44 pace. So those 34 years of smoking had its toll. ------------------ A journey of 1000 miles begins with one step IP: Logged
RacerRick69 Cool Runner	posted Aug-24-2006 09:30 PM I did my first "MAF" test today. I used 80% of max HR (0.8 * 183 = 146). 180 - age (47)=133 and I get up to that just walking. 70% HRR is 144. To keep my HR below 146, I had to run at 4 MPH and walk twice each 400. Mannn!!! That was an average of 14:44 pace. So those 34 years of smoking had its toll. ------------------ A journey of 1000 miles begins with one step IP: Logged
Earthshiner Member	posted Aug-24-2006 10:28 PM In the 12 months to Feb this year 90% of my miles were < my MAFF of 145. I was averaging 30 miles per week. Due to a meniscus injury I have been averaging only 3-5 miles per week since Feb (including several weeks of zero training). I�ve done a few 3 mile runs of late and have made a point of keeping my HR below 140. In fact, usually at the end of the run its low 130s. The thing that I�m curious about is my pace. It is about 8.5 to 9 minutes per mile. There seems to be heaps of runners in this thread who have had to slow down to 10-12 min miles to stay under MAFF. So I�m wondering how I�m able to run at 8.5 min pace & stay under MAFF considering the minimal aerobic training I�ve done in the last 6 months? Possibilities I�m thinking of: 1. My max HR is uncommonly low (so a 130s HR is actually a pretty high level of exertion for me). I�m doubtful about this, as I�m conversational in the 130�s. 2. My aerobic base has been preserved much better than I thought on just 3-5 mile per week. 3. My method of determining HR is wrong. Note: I don�t use a HRM. I simply stop every 10 mins or so & count pulse for 15 secs. It�s usually 32 beats per 15 seconds (32 x 4 = 128 bpm). 4. HRMs are inaccurate!?!?!?. Do you people ever cross check your HRM with a 15 second pulse count? 5. These 3 mile runs are too short to get the HR up to MAFF. Maybe I�ve stumbled across another benefit of MAFF training: Very effective maintenance of aerobic base during months of minimal to zero training. IP: Logged
7rover3 Cool Runner	posted Aug-24-2006 10:33 PM get a HRM - it will only help you and help understand better and crosschk your counting..... as to your other questions..... I am willing to bet that a 3 mile run, if limited by injury is good enough to use for a MAF run..... seems to have done you well... IP: Logged
crb81 Cool Runner	posted Aug-25-2006 09:05 AM I have a question concerning shoes and MAF. I stopped strict MAF training Aug 1 and started a 12 week half marathon training program. I am still doing MAF runs on 3-4 of my six weekly runs. I recently bought a pair of 10 oz Asic DS Trainors. I use them for my weekly tempo run. All other runs have been in my 12.5 oz Asic Kayanos. My pace on a typical 5 mile MAF run is about 10 m/m. I did this yesterday. Today, instead of doing a tempo run in the trainors, I did a 5 mile MAF run in them because I have an 8 mile race on Sunday. My pace was 9:30. This is the first time I've averaged below 10. Both mornings were 78F. Could 2.5 less oz/shoe make that much difference? ------------------ Clay IP: Logged
jjwaverly42 Cool Runner	posted Aug-25-2006 09:19 AM quote: Originally posted by crb81: I have a question concerning shoes and MAF. I stopped strict MAF training Aug 1 and started a 12 week half marathon training program. I am still doing MAF runs on 3-4 of my six weekly runs. I recently bought a pair of 10 oz Asic DS Trainors. I use them for my weekly tempo run. All other runs have been in my 12.5 oz Asic Kayanos. My pace on a typical 5 mile MAF run is about 10 m/m. I did this yesterday. Today, instead of doing a tempo run in the trainors, I did a 5 mile MAF run in them because I have an 8 mile race on Sunday. My pace was 9:30. This is the first time I've averaged below 10. Both mornings were 78F. Could 2.5 less oz/shoe make that much difference? Only mentally. the basic formula is 1-2 seconds per mile per pound. 5 oz won't do hardly anything for a 5 miler. Whatver it was, nice progress. --Jimmy Current MAF Training My Running World IP: Logged
kbank Cool Runner	posted Aug-25-2006 02:14 PM Not to show my newbie-ness too much but I have a question. When I read about the MAF test, that basically just refers to keeping track of your time per mile, while keeping your heartrate at the 180-age? Then, by recording these same stats over time, the progress will be clear. Is that about it? Thanks for your reply, and to all those who've responded to my thread in the newbie cafe. IP: Logged
crb81 Cool Runner	posted Aug-25-2006 04:29 PM Only mentally. the basic formula is 1-2 seconds per mile per pound. 5 oz won't do hardly anything for a 5 miler. Whatver it was, nice progress. Jimmy, Are you sure that figure isn't for weight loss? I posted the question on a shoe forum and was told you could expect 1 sec/ oz/mile improvement. That being said, 2.5 sec isn't near the 30 sec improvement I saw. Either I was just having a great day or my Garmin screwed up. ------------------ Clay IP: Logged
leitnerj Cool Runner	posted Aug-25-2006 08:58 PM quote: Originally posted by chuckp88: Date Mile 1 (warm up)/HR Mile 2/HR Mile 3/HR Mile 4/HR 6/29 10:16/127 9:06/145 9:25/145 9:54/144 7/18 10:34/120 8:33/144 9:00/144 9:14/144 8/24 9:50/127 7:53/145 8:11/145 8:32/145 So with about 10 weeks of MAF training I feel the progress has been pretty significant....and best of all, ENJOYABLE & INJURY FREE. Jesse, I follow you on MidMD's group (i'm a member but live in Cambridge.....Eagleman!). I look forward to your race reports! Great job at Pike's Peak! If the marathon goes well I may give Hinte Hat 50K a try in March. Awesome, Chuck! Glad to see some other MMtri's reaping the benefits. I've been poisoning Bob B. with it as well as he's preparing for MCM as well. I'm trying to keep him from jumping into speed work too soon (he seems to be making great progress). ------------------ MyRunningLog MyStuff Low Heart Rate Training FAQ My marathons and ultras My races and reports IP: Logged
leitnerj Cool Runner	posted Aug-25-2006 09:01 PM quote: Originally posted by kbank: Not to show my newbie-ness too much but I have a question. When I read about the MAF test, that basically just refers to keeping track of your time per mile, while keeping your heartrate at the 180-age? Then, by recording these same stats over time, the progress will be clear. Is that about it? Thanks for your reply, and to all those who've responded to my thread in the newbie cafe. Good enough. Keep things simple. The important thing is not the test - it's the training - sticking below MAF consistently for several months. Good luck! ------------------ MyRunningLog MyStuff Low Heart Rate Training FAQ My marathons and ultras My races and reports IP: Logged
leitnerj Cool Runner	posted Aug-25-2006 09:04 PM quote: Originally posted by Earthshiner: Possibilities I�m thinking of: 1. My max HR is uncommonly low (so a 130s HR is actually a pretty high level of exertion for me). I�m doubtful about this, as I�m conversational in the 130�s. 2. My aerobic base has been preserved much better than I thought on just 3-5 mile per week. 3. My method of determining HR is wrong. Note: I don�t use a HRM. I simply stop every 10 mins or so & count pulse for 15 secs. It�s usually 32 beats per 15 seconds (32 x 4 = 128 bpm). 4. HRMs are inaccurate!?!?!?. Do you people ever cross check your HRM with a 15 second pulse count? 5. These 3 mile runs are too short to get the HR up to MAFF. Your HRmax may be very low. You cannot use a manual pulse measurement to determine HR while running. If you stop your HR will go down - it just won't work. HR monitors are very accurate if they have a chest strap. ------------------ MyRunningLog MyStuff Low Heart Rate Training FAQ My marathons and ultras My races and reports IP: Logged
jjwaverly42 Cool Runner	posted Aug-26-2006 11:15 AM quote: Originally posted by kbank: Not to show my newbie-ness too much but I have a question. When I read about the MAF test, that basically just refers to keeping track of your time per mile, while keeping your heartrate at the 180-age? Then, by recording these same stats over time, the progress will be clear. Is that about it? Thanks for your reply, and to all those who've responded to my thread in the newbie cafe. It goes like this: Keep your heart rate for regular training UNDER your MAF. Create a zone that is MAF-15 to no more than your MAF (some of us don't bother going near the upper limit and stay under -5 or -10) An MAF test is particular run of 3-5 miles you do where you try to average your MAF for each mile. Warm up a few miles first, then do the test. Keep track of the of each mile's pace and ave. HR. Then do that test once every few weeks to a month. The best bet is to try to do the test on the same course on the same conditions (I use a treadmill for mine). Then you use the test to measure progress. You can also measure your progress just by comparing similar runs of any distance on the same course over time. If you're interested in this training, you might want to read Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone It's where all this comes from. Good luck. --Jimmy Current MAF Training My Running World IP: Logged
kcy1998 Cool Runner	posted Aug-26-2006 05:58 PM quote: Originally posted by jjwaverly42: ...The best bet is to try to do the test on the same course on the same conditions (I use a treadmill for mine).. Jimmy, I do my MAF on the TM also. The thing that I am curious about is how your TM time translates into your outdoor times. Can you provide this information? Thanks, kcy ------------------ My Running Page IP: Logged
jjwaverly42 Cool Runner	posted Aug-26-2006 06:28 PM quote: Originally posted by kcy1998: Jimmy, I do my MAF on the TM also. The thing that I am curious about is how your TM time translates into your outdoor times. Can you provide this information? Thanks, kcy Just look under my "Current MAF Training" link. It's all there. I'll take a look myself and see how things correlate. I can tell you right off the bat that 76� in the basement with a fan blowing on me is a lot different than 76� in the sun, so my HR won't rise too high at the end of a run like it does outside. That's generally a summer issue. It's the reverse in the colder months. It's usually 62-70� in the basement, and 20-60� outside. So, perhaps the times correlate a little better in the colder months. I'll check. --Jimmy Current MAF Training My Running World Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone IP: Logged
kcy1998 Cool Runner	posted Aug-26-2006 06:42 PM quote: Originally posted by jjwaverly42: Just look under my "Current MAF Training" link. It's all there. I'll take a look myself and see how things correlate. I can tell you right off the bat that 76� in the basement with a fan blowing on me is a lot different than 76� in the sun, so my HR won't rise too high at the end of a run like it does outside. That's generally a summer issue. It's the reverse in the colder months. It's usually 62-70� in the basement, and 20-60� outside. So, perhaps the times correlate a little better in the colder months. I'll check. --Jimmy Current MAF Training My Running World Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone Jimmy, Thanks for the quick response. A quick look and it seemed as if there is about a 90 second difference between the TM and outside. That is about what I am seeing on my runs also. One thing that did catch my eye is your most recent MAF test is a 08:57mm. The same as mine. Since I know that you ran a BQ time of 03:28:xx it provides me encouragement also. My BQ time is 03:30:59. We are in the same age group. When you wrote your race report I remember you talking about mental side of your run and how you were able to overcome it. Looking at your times and using heeding your advice about the mental side of the marathon it gives me hope for a BQ in Chicago. One thing that I did not see on your log is a time for a 1/2 marathon. Prior to running a BQ time did you have a 1/2 marathon that you used to gage your readiness for the full marathon? Thanks for all of your posts, kcy ------------------ My Running Page IP: Logged
jjwaverly42 Cool Runner	posted Aug-26-2006 06:58 PM quote: Originally posted by kcy1998: Jimmy, I do my MAF on the TM also. The thing that I am curious about is how your TM time translates into your outdoor times. Can you provide this information? Thanks, kcy It's been such a strange training year. I looked around for runs on the TM vs. Outdoors done around the same time: date...miles..pace.....HAveHR.....course............temp/humidity 6/3.......5..... 9:51.....141 bpm.....TM (1% incline).....70�/95% 6/5.......5......9:49.....142 bpm.....Bike Trail..............68�/60% 6/6.......5......9:34.....141 bpm.....TM (1% incline).....66�/69% 6/21..12.4.....9:50.....150 bpm.....bike trail...............73�/66% 6/23..12.86...9:49.....151 bpm.....TM (1% incline).....74�/80% 7/30...5.......10:00.....144 bpm.....Bike Trail..............75�/70% 8/3.....5.........9:50.....142 bpm.....TM (1% incline).....76�/55% 4/5.....15.31.....11:06.....144 .....TM ( 12 .25m hills @3.0%) 64�/80% 4/7.....15.27.....10:52.....144.....Lincoln Woods (hills)...........57�/87% 3/16.....6.....10:56.....137.....TM (0% incline)....64�/36% 3/18.....6.....10:45.....138.....Bike Trail.............43�/40% Pretty close I would say, with the TM just a hair faster in the warmer months (cooler in the basement than outside) and a tad slower in the colder months (hotter in the basement than outside). Keeping it on 1% incline comes out about the same as outside overall. There ya go! --Jimmy Current MAF Training My Running World Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone IP: Logged
jjwaverly42 Cool Runner	posted Aug-26-2006 07:31 PM quote: Originally posted by kcy1998: Jimmy, Thanks for the quick response. A quick look and it seemed as if there is about a 90 second difference between the TM and outside. That is about what I am seeing on my runs also. One thing that did catch my eye is your most recent MAF test is a 08:57mm. The same as mine. Since I know that you ran a BQ time of 03:28:xx it provides me encouragement also. My BQ time is 03:30:59. We are in the same age group. When you wrote your race report I remember you talking about mental side of your run and how you were able to overcome it. Looking at your times and using heeding your advice about the mental side of the marathon it gives me hope for a BQ in Chicago. One thing that I did not see on your log is a time for a 1/2 marathon. Prior to running a BQ time did you have a 1/2 marathon that you used to gage your readiness for the full marathon? Thanks for all of your posts, kcy Hi KCy, See my above post. I think very close, not a 90 second difference. Before Philly in November 20th, 2005 , I ran a half-marathon on October 19th in 1:36. On top of the Pfitzinger training, which made my legs feel a bit toasted, the half sent me into a premature taper with many rest days in order to be ready for the marathon--I was that fried. Now, I use other methods of gauging my fitness. I try to do the same tempo runs about the same distance out from the marathon on the same course. I'll compare HR's and pace with the previous tempo runs for a previous marathon. I also do a few MAF tests. It works for me. Close enough. According to these signposts, I should have been about the same for Sugarloaf, May 2006 as for my Philly November 2005 fitness. I ended up being slower by 2:00. I was 5-6 pounds heavier for Sugarloaf (there's 10-12 seconds per mile right there), so that might have added to the struggle towards the end (can only measure so far with a tempo run), along with Sugarloaf being a little tougher on the legs than Philly. So, maybe I was pretty even. Same ballpark at least. I think you can create your own methods of gauging fitness before and be just fine. Just use the same thing every time. I think Frank Shorter used a 10 k race. I read that Deena K. does a half marathon. Looks like Bill Rodgers just used marathons, he ran them so often in a year at one point. :> ) Keep going! --Jimmy Current MAF Training My Running World MAF training source: Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone [This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Aug-26-2006).] IP: Logged
runawayjesse Cool Runner	posted Aug-27-2006 07:18 AM quote: Originally posted by jjwaverly42: the basic formula is 1-2 seconds per mile per pound. How accurate is that formula? I purposly put on 5 lbs of stright muscle mass and didn't notice any slowing. IP: Logged

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