posted Aug-09-2006 11:56 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
The number 180 has absolutely nothing to do with your max
heart rate. If your max heart rate is known to be very low
(let's say at least 10 beats lower than what 220-age would predict)
then the MAF number is going to be too high of a target heart rate
for you and you should follow Hadd's approach. Which reminds
me that a very astute contributor forwarded me a copy of the
Hadd article that I have neglected to add to the FAQ - I will
do this shortly since that link is now bad!

---

Thanks leitnerj - I think I found the Hadd article online and deciphered what his approach is.

I'm guessing I should perform a MaxHR test on myself. If the result ends up 10 beats lower than 220-age, then Hadd would be approach I should take; otherwise, stick with the number I get with the MAF formula for training. Or is there something else I need to consider as well?

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posted Aug-10-2006 12:25 AM            

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posted Aug-10-2006 07:19 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Ok, gotcha. What are your times for shorter races and your
best marathon times? I will suggest that you do not use any
specific % of MAF for your marathon. This is going to be unique
to the person and to the person's current fitness level, tolerance
for pain, lactate threshold, etc. I know what I use now and you
can look at earlier posts where I show all of my splits and HRavg
for each split for many of my recent marathons. The approach
I used before any such knowledge was to find a "comfortably
challenging" pace to sustain, take note of the heart rate, stick
with it for a good 10-12 miles, making sure it's not climbing
tremendously at a consistent pace, then let it slowly climb 2-3
beats every few miles or so, and kick it in more at mile 20 if
feeling good. Very ambiguous, I know.

---

Actually "comfortably challenging" is easier to follow than any specific heart rate. This all sounds like a smart plan. Here are my recent race times:

HM 1:51 - perfect weather somewhat hilly
10k 50:23 - very hot, humid and hilly
5k 24:23 - Turkey Trot 10 degrees F
M PR 3:59:50 - some rolling hills (Dublin 2002)
M PW 4:38 - last year 9 minute pace at the half then lost it and walked for a good chunck of the 2nd half

Just did Max test this morning and got my HR up to 178. I'm 36. That's a little low but I think I'm safe sticking to 144 MAF.

Thanks for the advice.
Chris

[This message has been edited by Chris345 (edited Aug-10-2006).]

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posted Aug-10-2006 08:12 PM               

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posted Aug-10-2006 09:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runwun:
i went out and ran a 16 mile run on hilly course just to see where i stood with this maff thing im 44 max hr is 170 resting hr 45 i never let my hr get over 145 and i ran it in 751 a mile so what does this all tell me also i run about 65 miles a week for 2 years.thanks for your help...

---

It's hard to say. What kind of results do you come up with if
you run below 136 HR for 8 miles or so? I can make some
race predictions with that info.

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posted Aug-10-2006 09:19 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmoonhead:

I'm guessing I should perform a MaxHR test on myself. If the result ends up 10 beats lower than 220-age, then Hadd would be approach I should take; otherwise, stick with the number I get with the MAF formula for training. Or is there something else I need to consider as well?

---

No, that should work fine. Might I ask, where did you find
the Hadd article? I'm having difficulty adding all the text to the
FAQ site, so I would love to just replace the link.

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posted Aug-10-2006 10:45 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
No, that should work fine. Might I ask, where did you find
the Hadd article? I'm having difficulty adding all the text to the
FAQ site, so I would love to just replace the link.

---

Thanks for your help. As for the article, I found it here - the link is actually a .pdf file, so you can save it to your computer.

http://www.counterpartcoaching.com/articles.htm

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posted Aug-11-2006 12:42 PM            

Sorry if it's been discussed/answered...

Julie

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posted Aug-11-2006 01:11 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by berean:
Which book should you read, The Maffetone Method: The Holistic, Low-Stress, No-Pain Way to Exceptional Fitness

or; High Performance Heart: Effective Training with the HRM for Health, Fitness and Competition, if you are just getting started with this running method?

Sorry if it's been discussed/answered...

Julie

---

This one is the bible:

Training For Endurance by Dr. Phil Maffetone

--Jimmy

My Running World
Current Training

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posted Aug-11-2006 01:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Serious Runner:

Question: How do you do a MAF test on the t-mill? It seems like you would be messing with the speed the entire time. In addition, I really sweat on a t-mill, so I would have problems with overheating along the way.

---

Serious Runner,
I do almost all of my runs on the t-mill. Part of the reason was to avoid being oustide and having people watch me as I plodded along at my 14:30 mm pace. At first the pace was all over the pace. Over the past 8 months of maffing it stays very constant. Ususally what I do is start out with the t-mill at 5.5 mph. Then every 1\4 of a mile I increase it up by 1. Today I ran 5 miles at a 09:05 pace and kept my HR at maff :-) It is a new record for me. I really want to the pace in the 08:xx range. Hopefully it will happen before Chicago.
kcy

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posted Aug-11-2006 05:21 PM            

Thank you! I'll order one now...

Julie

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posted Aug-12-2006 12:03 PM            

My eyes were really opened this morning while running a local 5k. I'm 39/F and have recently(June) started re-running, anywhere from 40min-1hr runs 4 or 5 days a week. Never fast running and always bonk if I ran 3 consecutive days. So I get up to run the 5k this morning. I arrived early so I warmed up about a mile before the race started. I ran it in 33:48. It was close to 80 degrees and very humid, a lot of hills on this course. My average HR was 179. I didn't run a lot this week so I wasn't overly fatigued today, pretty rested.

I am ready to start from the beginning. I know it will be tough, I can't do much running at all without my HR jumping up over 154, and it's so hard to stop and walk. Anyway, that's my history. Any advice or encouragement would be appreciated! : )

Julie

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posted Aug-13-2006 03:23 PM            

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posted Aug-14-2006 11:12 AM               

12:48 105 Bike Trail (start 55º)
12:14 109
11:55 109
13:29 110 (1.16 miles)
11:57 112
12:08 114
11:56 115
11:34 115
11:35 117
11:34 119
13:34 121 (1.16 miles)
12:14 123
12:17 124
12:15 126
12:01 127
12:27 130
12:04 133
13:07 134 (big jump here)
14:14 136 (woman with baby stroller with triplets passes me)
14:10 139 (71%mhr--62%hrr MAF -2) (end 70º)

Ave: 12:16
20.42 miles (an extra 1:11 and .1 mile for running to my car a few times)

--Jimmy

Current MAF Training

My Running World

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posted Aug-14-2006 05:08 PM               

The primary question for this post is what is everyone using for fuel during Maffetone training? When I used to just run, I always craved sugars. At the lower HR's, I no longer do, as expected, but do get hungry during longer workouts. I've been playing quite a bit with this. Currently it's been:

• 0 to 2 hours when temp < 90 degrees or so = just water.
• 0 to 2 hours >= 90 degrees-ish = Endurolytes (3 capsules per hour) and Heed mix (2 scoops and 20 oz per hour) - mostly because it makes me feel good in the heat. No real need for the fuel beyond that.
• 3 to 5 hours at any temp = same as above plus 1 gel per hour.
• 5+ hours = Endurolytes (3 capsules per hour) and Sustained Energy mix (2 Scoops and 20 oz per hour) plus 1 gel per hour
  

As the summer winds down, the hot weather adjustments aren't as important until next summer.

I don't have the book on hand right now but recall maffetone talking about avoiding the sugars during exercise in favor of the fat buring. Heed uses only maltodextrin and the gels are maltodextrine with a little fruit juice. I noticed that gatorade was definitly too sweet for my stomach, even in low concentration. I also recall articles (Noakes? and others) on maintaining the liver glycogen in order to burn the fat. At ~300 cal intake per hour, I am definitly not only burning this fuel My HRM estimate is a bit over 600 cal per hour, typically.

A second question is in the observation that, independent of the length of time of the workout, I notice a 4-6 bpm jump after drinking for about 10 seconds. It shows when either drinking water or the fuel mixes. Probably nothing significant, but thought it interesting. Has anyone had the same observation?

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posted Aug-14-2006 06:06 PM               

Ok i went and ran on the tm today 8 miles i did 730 a mile and my HR never went above 135,thanks again for any help

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posted Aug-14-2006 06:44 PM               

Welcome back...I don't take any calories in during a run regardless of length. Only water and salt tabs if it's warm and longer than an hour. From what I understand it's best not to if you can handle it. The salt tabs eliminate the cramping issue without the calories of a mixed drink.I try not to eat anything for three hours prior to a run, but sometimes that's difficult and I'll go after 2.

I also get the bump in HR while drinking...I always assumed it had to do with holding your breath for a couple seconds.

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posted Aug-14-2006 08:46 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
NGeorgia,

Welcome back...I don't take any calories in during a run regardless of length. Only water and salt tabs if it's warm and longer than an hour. From what I understand it's best not to if you can handle it. The salt tabs eliminate the cramping issue without the calories of a mixed drink.I try not to eat anything for three hours prior to a run, but sometimes that's difficult and I'll go after 2.

I also get the bump in HR while drinking...I always assumed it had to do with holding your breath for a couple seconds.

---

Thanks aharmer. How long are your training runs? I noticed from your profile you have some pretty impressive marathon times (nice! very jealous) and the mention of an upcoming 50m as part of the 100k relay. I've found that I get somewhat weak after about 3.5 hours when I don't take in any calories and am usually having to take the kids directly afterwards or do yardwork. If I wait and eat afterwards, I tend to need a nap If I eat some calories during and a snack after, my energy level stays constant. If I want to go for 5 hours or more, I notice that it prevents the fatigue setting in.

This past Sunday, I did a 4.5 hour bike ride and finished with plenty of energy (just hard keeping my HR down). I had a burritto and drove home. I then played with the kids for a few hours, worked in the garage, then took them grocery shopping ... and so on When I wouldn't take calories in, I couldn't keep my eyes open after lunch on my long run days. Didn't go over so well with my wife

Have you thought about taking electrolyte capsules rather than salt tabs? I used to get headaches after my 2+ hour runs. The salt tabs took care of cramping but the electrolytes took care of headaches and stomach issues mostly in the heat.

Anyway, the 4 to 5.5 (longest trail run yet) hour range is new to me as of this Spring and has pushed me into the whole fueling thingy. The shorter stuff during the week is usally in the 1 to 2 hour range so it only comes up on the weekend (Sat is long run day, followed by a short bike ride and Sun is long bike day).

Man, I love to go long. Can't wait until my runs get back up there.

I'm going to try the holding breath thing tomorrow ...

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posted Aug-14-2006 09:04 PM               

The tablets I take are Succeed...technically they are electrolyte tabs, I just call them salt tabs because electrolyte tabs consist of quite a bit of salt.

I envy you and the ability to go for 4+ hour trail runs! I rarely get the opportunity to get out that long...that's been my biggest problem training for this 50M race. Lots of 1-2 hour runs, not enough 3-5 hour runs. We're very similar in our past long-run experience. I'd basically collapse at the end of a 20 miler and lay on the couch for 6 hours afterward. Running in the next two days was difficult. Since beginning Maff training I'm just like you...20 miler is just the start of the day, I finish the day and run the next day with no issues.

Look forward to hearing your progress, good luck!

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posted Aug-14-2006 09:19 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Just to be clear...I didn't mean holding your breath would cure the HR jump, I think that is what causes the increase. Based on your reply I thought you may have misunderstood.

The tablets I take are Succeed...technically they are electrolyte tabs, I just call them salt tabs because electrolyte tabs consist of quite a bit of salt.

I envy you and the ability to go for 4+ hour trail runs! I rarely get the opportunity to get out that long...that's been my biggest problem training for this 50M race. Lots of 1-2 hour runs, not enough 3-5 hour runs. We're very similar in our past long-run experience. I'd basically collapse at the end of a 20 miler and lay on the couch for 6 hours afterward. Running in the next two days was difficult. Since beginning Maff training I'm just like you...20 miler is just the start of the day, I finish the day and run the next day with no issues.

Look forward to hearing your progress, good luck!

---

Was joking about the holding the breath thing, but was also interested if the HR would spike with the intake water or mix.

For the long workouts, I try to be out the door by 5 to be back in a reasonable time. For the trail runs, I've been able to plan our camping trips around trails I want to try. I can then roll out of the tent while everyone is asleep and get back after they've only been up long enough to have breakfast and play a bit. In GA, we get two camping seasons and am looking forward to running at Great Smoky Mtn Nat'l Park over Labor Day!!! We'll then be camping many weekends through the beginning of Dec.

Have to be careful ramping back my mileage though ... We'll see how well that goes. I have to take the boys to swimming lessons on Saturdays for the next month so that will limit me a bit, having to be back by 10 am. That's probably a good thing.

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posted Aug-14-2006 09:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Yesterday, on my first long run, I tried to keep my HR below MAF-6 by the end, but my HR jumped bigtime after mile 17. Let it go up to MAf-2) That's what I get for ignoring base for 6 weeks. Yesterday's run:

---

Hey Jimmy - sounds great. By the way, do you weigh yourself
before and after your runs? I frequently have encountered the
"every falls apart at 17 miles" thing in MAF training and recently
I started being religious about weighing myself after runs, especially
when it's warm. Pretty much every time I've noticed that when
everything falls apart, I'm at least about 5 lbs down and often
closer to 10 or 12 lbs. See if that might 'splain something.

------------------
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MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Aug-14-2006 09:46 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by NGeorgiaTR:

The primary question for this post is what is everyone using for fuel during Maffetone training? When I used to just run, I always craved sugars. At the lower HR's, I no longer do, as expected, but do get hungry during longer workouts. I've been playing quite a bit with this. Currently it's been:

• 0 to 2 hours when temp < 90 degrees or so = just water.
• 0 to 2 hours >= 90 degrees-ish = Endurolytes (3 capsules per hour) and Heed mix (2 scoops and 20 oz per hour) - mostly because it makes me feel good in the heat. No real need for the fuel beyond that.
• 3 to 5 hours at any temp = same as above plus 1 gel per hour.
• 5+ hours = Endurolytes (3 capsules per hour) and Sustained Energy mix (2 Scoops and 20 oz per hour) plus 1 gel per hour
  

As the summer winds down, the hot weather adjustments aren't as important until next summer.

I don't have the book on hand right now but recall maffetone talking about avoiding the sugars during exercise in favor of the fat buring. Heed uses only maltodextrin and the gels are maltodextrine with a little fruit juice. I noticed that gatorade was definitly too sweet for my stomach, even in low concentration. I also recall articles (Noakes? and others) on maintaining the liver glycogen in order to burn the fat. At ~300 cal intake per hour, I am definitly not only burning this fuel My HRM estimate is a bit over 600 cal per hour, typically.

A second question is in the observation that, independent of the length of time of the workout, I notice a 4-6 bpm jump after drinking for about 10 seconds. It shows when either drinking water or the fuel mixes. Probably nothing significant, but thought it interesting. Has anyone had the same observation?

---

Maffetone really just warns against taking in any carbs within 2 (or
maybe three hours) before starting your exercise, but it's ok to
take in carbs after you've been running for a bit. Nonetheless, I'm
like aharmer and I've accustomed myself to taking in no carbs at
all during runs or rides. The exception for me being if I'll be out
for 5 hours or more, whether it be riding, running, riding immediately
followed by running, or running immediately followed by riding.
The time I need them most is riding followed by running. I believe
that there's something much more carb-burning about cycling, which
is evident from a number of people's cycling vo2max tests, by looking
at the trend of RQ as intensity increases.

I may see a slight rise (no more than 2-3 beats) after drinking, but
interestingly enough, I see about 5 beat drop for about 5-10 seconds
after burping. Seriously.

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posted Aug-14-2006 09:56 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runwun:
It's hard to say. What kind of results do you come up with if
you run below 136 HR for 8 miles or so? I can make some
race predictions with that info.

Ok i went and ran on the tm today 8 miles i did 730 a mile and my HR never went above 135,thanks again for any help

---

I'm generally a lot faster on the treadmill than I am outside, especially
in summer. Sounds about similar to my treadmill pace when I was
in about 3:15 marathon condition, assuming you don't have a really
low max heart rate. But, that could mean that you could peak out
at 3:05 or so, or struggle at 3:25, depending on how accustomed you
are to runs of 20 milers or more. Have you run any races recently?

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posted Aug-14-2006 11:50 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Hey Jimmy - sounds great. By the way, do you weigh yourself
before and after your runs? I frequently have encountered the
"every falls apart at 17 miles" thing in MAF training and recently
I started being religious about weighing myself after runs, especially
when it's warm. Pretty much every time I've noticed that when
everything falls apart, I'm at least about 5 lbs down and often
closer to 10 or 12 lbs. See if that might 'splain something.

---

I weigh myself during the run, especially the last three miles--maybe that's why I'm slowing down.

Which brings me to this question: what's the best scale to use to weigh yourself while running? I find my mechanical medical scale a litlle cumbersome.

:> ) Good suggestion.

That particular long run, the temp was a factor. Started out at 55º, and it was sunny and 70º by the end. I probably could have drank more. Still, 6 weeks of low mileage, races, and uptempo stuff will erode things a bit. MAF test was one of my best on Tuesday (just 7 seconds slower than my peak fitness in the spring).

One plus from getting back to MAF training. it seems like my spirit has returned. The weeks after the Sugarloaf Marathon (May 21) haven't exactly been filled with zippity-doo-da. Managed a 10-mile PR in July that was nice. I'm excited again about training (going to do Philly again).

I'll keep the thread posted on this experiment. Feels right.

Thanks, Jesse.

--Jimmy

Current MAF Training
My Running World

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posted Aug-15-2006 12:11 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by NGeorgiaTR:

A second question is in the observation that, independent of the length of time of the workout, I notice a 4-6 bpm jump after drinking for about 10 seconds. It shows when either drinking water or the fuel mixes. Probably nothing significant, but thought it interesting. Has anyone had the same observation?

---

Yes. It's because you are running with your arm up. Try pretending to drink, and I'll think you'll find you'll see the same jump. It also illustrates why you should keep your arms low and relaxed when running.

Also, I find if I put my Polar watch near the strap, it will BOOP and show me the time of day, tell me it loves me, and extrapolate the current probabilty of Patrick Swayze showing up just when my Daddy won't let me dance and saying "No one puts Jimmy in a corner."

--Jimmy

Current MAF Training
My Running World

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Aug-15-2006).]

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