| Author |
Topic: Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen |
passinthru
Cool Runner |
 posted Aug-06-2006 08:44 AM
   
Just thought I would repeat what has already been stated on this thread about the role of proper hydration during MAF training.
My MAF heart rate is 125. I try to run long runs at 120, regular runs at 125, and try to never exceed 130.
I usually have a very hard time keeping at the proper heart rate during runs over 2 hours. At about 2 hours my HR starts climbing and I usually end up just shuffling along or walking to keep it in range.
Yesterday I carried water along and took a drink about every 10-12 minutes. I ran for over 3 hours and was able to keep a good pace while my heart rate easily stayed at the low end of my MAF HR range. After 3 hours I decided to pick up the pace and just let my heart rate go just to see what happened. I didn't run fast but just found a comfortable pace. During the next 1/2 hour my HR never exceeded the upper limits of my range.
I know there are other factors that effect heart rate but other conditions were similiar to other runs - the extra water was the only real difference.
I know that this has been mentioned before in this thread but it seemed worth bringing it up again.
As a side note - I'm always amazed that I feel like picking up the pace at the end of my runs. I usually end my regular runs with a few strides and my long runs with a few minutes at tempo pace. Quite unlike the exhausted shuffle and stumble that used to characterize my long runs before I found this thread and started MAF training.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2006 11:40 AM
There's no "too much reminding" when it comes to hydration!
I've learned the lesson over and over again and I'll still forget
sometimes. One element of it is having your body "learn" how
to absorb all of the fluids it needs. Believe it or not, it takes
training. It's a critical type of training for running ultras 50 miles
and longer in warm weather. ------------------
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corland14
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2006 04:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
One element of it is having your body "learn" how
to absorb all of the fluids it needs. Believe it or not, it takes
training.
So true. I'm new to long runs (for me 12+ miles) this year. It doesnt matter how much water or Propel I drink during a run, I still get dehydrated if its hot. Yesterday I drank 50-60 ounces during a run and still hit an awful wall at 14 miles. If I drink any faster I get an upset stomach. It was 85 degrees. I lost 10 pounds in 16 miles (+ the 3-4lbs I drank). I can't wait till fall.
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goKgo
Member |
posted Aug-06-2006 05:58 PM
Hi, I am planning to start MAF training in a few weeks. I have ordered the book, but would like some advice on the timing of my training.
I just ran my first marathon in May (flying pig). I finished at 4:39, which I was very pleased with since my goal was just to finish. (I'm a 22yo female, btw) I would like to run another next fall and want to train for time. I know that next fall is a long way away, but I want to start figuring out the most beneficial training plan.
Here is my basic question: If I am starting MAF now for base building, should I continue to build and then cut back once I start Marathon training, next spring/summer? Or would it be more beneficial to do a certain number of weeks of MAF now, followed by some speed work and another MAF block and then into a Marathon training plan?
Also, can anyone recommend a cheap basic HRM suitable for MAF. I want to make sure I am going to stick with this before I invest in a fancy Garmin type one.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2006 06:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by goKgo:
Here is my basic question: If I am starting MAF now for base building, should I continue to build and then cut back once I start Marathon training, next spring/summer? Or would it be more beneficial to do a certain number of weeks of MAF now, followed by some speed work and another MAF block and then into a Marathon training plan?
Also, can anyone recommend a cheap basic HRM suitable for MAF. I want to make sure I am going to stick with this before I invest in a fancy Garmin type one.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
What do you mean when ask if you should cut back? This is a great
time to start MAF training because your target race is not for a while.
As far as speed work goes, see how your MAF training goes and decide
then. This is too early to decide because you really don't know what's
going to happen after a few months of MAF style training. Typical
marathon training programs include speed work, beyond the beginner
schedules, so unless you get bored after a few months, you can jump
into the speedwork as your (probably 18 week) training program dictates
or you may decide at that point that you don't need or want it. It's
hard to say at this point. If you just want a cheap-o HRM, here's
a decent one that will record total time, but won't record splits:
Polar B1 at drugstore.com. ------------------
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goKgo
Member |
posted Aug-07-2006 12:18 AM
Thanks for the response.By cutting back, I guess I am assuming that I would build up to a higher mpw than where my marathon training program would start. This is what happened with my first. The first week of the program was only about 15mpw or so and I had previously been doing 20-30ish. Since I am training with a very long term goal in mind, I have time for two ~16 week blocks of strickly MAF with a good 10 weeks or so of speed work in between before starting a training program. Is there benefit to varying the training? two blocks of MAF split by some speed work versus, all MAF up until marathon training? I know this all varies from person to person, and I do plan to change things based on my experience with MAF, but I was just curious what others have encountered with this type of training.
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Aussie34
Member |
posted Aug-07-2006 07:04 AM
Hi Jesse,Thanks for all the great info on this thread. I stumbled across it a couple of months back while searching for information on base building. I decided to give MAF training a shot. Initially I didn't see any results and was getting discouraged, but I decided to stick with it for at least 6 weeks. 8 weeks later and I am starting to see big improvements. I have one question though. My MAF figure is 148. I try to stay under that HR for the whole run. However, usually at some point during the run, my HR spikes briefly up to 150 for 5 to 10 seconds. Is this okay, or should I keep my average rate lower, so that the spikes don't go above 148?
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refiner
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-07-2006 06:27 PM
Oooh Leitnerj, your links are fantab! I've been really curious about my own cardio fitness for many years, and now moreso as I've begun running. I feel like I've made great progress for the first time when it comes to running outdoors, but it's been soooo slow (and stinkin' hot). Since May, I've built up to running 27 min without walking and feeling great at the end of it! The only thing that bugs, is my cardio fitness still "feels" weak. My body is feeling awesome, but my heart rate will steadily climb 'till the very end where I'm usually at 185-190. I love training with a HRM, but I can be running a nearly 13min. pace and still climb up to 166 bpm Arg!!!! Btw, my max. aerobic hr is 152 (using the 180 formula). This is where egotism rears it's ugly face and I begin to believe that I'm outside the norm. Can someone please give me permission to be special and add 10 points, or will I just have to resort to speed walking and forgo the euphoria of PB's (as minor as they may be)?------------------
"Don't get me too excited because I use four letter words when I get excited." -Bono
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-07-2006 07:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Aussie34:
Hi Jesse,Thanks for all the great info on this thread. I stumbled across it a couple of months back while searching for information on base building. I decided to give MAF training a shot. Initially I didn't see any results and was getting discouraged, but I decided to stick with it for at least 6 weeks. 8 weeks later and I am starting to see big improvements. I have one question though. My MAF figure is 148. I try to stay under that HR for the whole run. However, usually at some point during the run, my HR spikes briefly up to 150 for 5 to 10 seconds. Is this okay, or should I keep my average rate lower, so that the spikes don't go above 148?
Not a big deal - you're in the noise! I try to keep 10 below, but I
pop over quite often, especially when I'm biking on hilly courses.
Try keep as low as possible for a large percentage of your runs
but don't fret about popping over here and there. Good luck!
------------------
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-07-2006 07:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by refiner:
Oooh Leitnerj, your links are fantab! I've been really curious about my own cardio fitness for many years, and now moreso as I've begun running. I feel like I've made great progress for the first time when it comes to running outdoors, but it's been soooo slow (and stinkin' hot). Since May, I've built up to running 27 min without walking and feeling great at the end of it! The only thing that bugs, is my cardio fitness still "feels" weak. My body is feeling awesome, but my heart rate will steadily climb 'till the very end where I'm usually at 185-190. I love training with a HRM, but I can be running a nearly 13min. pace and still climb up to 166 bpm Arg!!!! Btw, my max. aerobic hr is 152 (using the 180 formula). This is where egotism rears it's ugly face and I begin to believe that I'm outside the norm. Can someone please give me permission to be special and add 10 points, or will I just have to resort to speed walking and forgo the euphoria of PB's (as minor as they may be)?
You (and only you) are hereby anointed the right to add 15 to your
MAF. Please don't tell anyone else I gave you permission.
Try sprinkling in some treadmill runs once or twice a week if you
have the opportunity. That's how I retain some semblance of
my pride! ------------------
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refiner
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-07-2006 07:45 PM
Yesssssss! My lips are sealed!
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7rover3
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-07-2006 08:38 PM
I usually pop over my 150 - actually I should be 153 but I lower it for fun..... I try to stay in the 130's and most of time I can - sometimes in the beginning of the run I see it hit 165 or so..... but my average is always in the 130's - I just worry about my average and make sure I am mostly in the low end below 150. it is fun to run like this - nice and relaxing !!
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-07-2006 10:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by goKgo:
Since I am training with a very long term goal in mind, I have time for two ~16 week blocks of strickly MAF with a good 10 weeks or so of speed work in between before starting a training program. Is there benefit to varying the training? two blocks of MAF split by some speed work versus, all MAF up until marathon training?
I'd still respond in basically the same way. You've got a long
time - play it by ear - see what happens. You can always leave
18 weeks at the end to jump into a focused marathon training
plan. ------------------
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Chris345
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-08-2006 02:20 PM
Jesse or any helpful MAFer,I started keeping my HR under MAF for all my marathon training runs for almost 1 month. I'm not sure If I'm improving but I definitely feel better. I no longer feel like I'm on the verge of getting injured. It's hard to tell because it's been so hot then cooler but I think I'm getting faster at my MAF - 144. Thanks for the thread and all your help. My question: my marathon training plan suggests that I do speed work (It's basically Higdon's Intermediate II plan with Speed work). Should I increase the suggested mileage while running at MAF in lieu of the speed work? Is there a favorite marathon schedule that you follow? Thanks for any input. I'll be happy to post my times/HR for Info. I follow the same course but with the weather changing I don't think they are all that reliable as example data. Chris
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-08-2006 07:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chris345:
Jesse or any helpful MAFer,I started keeping my HR under MAF for all my marathon training runs for almost 1 month. I'm not sure If I'm improving but I definitely feel better. I no longer feel like I'm on the verge of getting injured. It's hard to tell because it's been so hot then cooler but I think I'm getting faster at my MAF - 144. Thanks for the thread and all your help. My question: my marathon training plan suggests that I do speed work (It's basically Higdon's Intermediate II plan with Speed work). Should I increase the suggested mileage while running at MAF in lieu of the speed work? Is there a favorite marathon schedule that you follow? Thanks for any input. I'll be happy to post my times/HR for Info. I follow the same course but with the weather changing I don't think they are all that reliable as example data. Chris
Well, I generally recommend that you don't jump into MAF training
for the first time in the middle of preparation for a race. Not that
there's anything wrong with it, but many tend to get frustrated because
they want to see instantaneous results from something that takes a
while. Nonetheless, is this your first marathon? If so, (or even if
it's your second or so), I wouldn't worry about the speedwork, nor
would say that you should replace it with more mileage. However,
for this approach, more mileage is a good thing, so go ahead and
increase as your body allows. At some point, you'll probably start
to burn up inside and feel as though you have forgotten how to
run fast, so you'll want to incorporate some speed sessions. Given
that you've jumped into this in the middle of race training, you'll
have to make the call based on how you feel, but I'd probably
chide you into avoid speedwork this time around and see how the
MAF training gets you to and through the marathon.
------------------
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Chris345
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2006 08:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, I generally recommend that you don't jump into MAF training
for the first time in the middle of preparation for a race. Not that
there's anything wrong with it, but many tend to get frustrated because
they want to see instantaneous results from something that takes a
while. Nonetheless, is this your first marathon? If so, (or even if
it's your second or so), I wouldn't worry about the speedwork, nor
would say that you should replace it with more mileage. However,
for this approach, more mileage is a good thing, so go ahead and
increase as your body allows. At some point, you'll probably start
to burn up inside and feel as though you have forgotten how to
run fast, so you'll want to incorporate some speed sessions. Given
that you've jumped into this in the middle of race training, you'll
have to make the call based on how you feel, but I'd probably
chide you into avoid speedwork this time around and see how the
MAF training gets you to and through the marathon.
Thanks for the reply. This is actually my 5th marathon but I took a break and had a baby so technically it may be my 2nd in terms of consecutive years. I'm not sure if MAF will improve my speed at all but I really did not have to slow down much anyway. I think I was already in pretty good aerobic shape before I started. I was doing my long runs at a 9:30 pace and still do. When I do my shorter runs when it's the temp. is below 70 my MAF is actually around a 9 minute pace. My original goal was BQ 3:45 but it was clear to me that pace is out of reach with speed work or not. My new goal is under 4 hours and I think MAF will get me there just fine. I'd like to have some wiggle room and am feeling pretty good so I think I will increase my mileage a bit and see how it goes. Now that I'm not killing myself with speedwork, I'm much happier while running so even if I don't get a fabulous marathon time I'm happier overall and maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Side question if you have time: My MAF is 144 should I increase my Marathon HR by x%? thanks
Chris
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2006 09:15 AM
Some more real-world feedback. I started trying to MAF 4 or 5 months ago, but I felt like it was too hard. I figured out my HR max and learned that it's lower than average, which meant my MAF # was too high for everyday running (@80% HR max) I followed the link to the HADD article and have followed its guidance for the past 8-1/2 weeks. It's been tough in the heat to figure out if I'm making any real improvements. Worse, I ran a couple races during that time (5k and 10k) and only did slightly better than I did last year when I first took up running. I chalked it up to heat and poor racing strategy and figured if things don't get better, I can always chuck the whole thing. The one obvious benefit, though, was that I was able to run more miles w/o injury. I jumped fairly quickly from @25 mpw to 44-50 mpw -- which i know is supposed to be stupid, but at the lower intensity, I trusted my body to tell me if I was over-reaching. To evaluate progress, HADD provides a test for comparison, namely run 2,400 meters at a track at various preset HRs. So my initial test consisted of 6 laps at each of the following (w/a 90 second rest in between) 115 bpm, 125 bpm, 135 bpm, and 145 bpm (i didn't feel like I could handle 155). I tested again this morning, on the first non-muggy day in a month (no wind and the time of day was comparable). Here are the results (i've converted to minutes per mile) June 18: 115 (10:28), 125 (9:41), 135 (8:49), 145 (7:54).
Today: 115 (9:25), 125 (8:34), 135 (7:50), 145 (7:07). I was going to run a set at 155 but my achilles was feeling a little achy and i figured why push it. The difference is that today I felt like I could have handled 155 whereas last June I didn't feel it was possible. Honestly, I didn't expect to see these improvements, particularly since my times were some 45-60 seconds slower over the past hot/humid month. Because I'm preparing for the Marine Corps Marathon, I'm not sure that I'm going to continue to follow HADD as closely as I have been doing. I intend to try to mesh it with the Pfitz 55 mpw plan because I realize that with all the low HR running, I feel a little awkward running faster. Having said that, HADD also suggests increasing intensity after 12 weeks so I'm hoping it all meshes well. [The goal, incidentally, is to be able to churn 7:40 miles at 140 bpm) I will continue to run most of my miles at 70-75% max HR. In any event, this is all a long-winded way to provide some objective confirmation of the low HR methods. Yes, I suffered at the beginning with 11 and 12 minute miles. And I don't feel like I got much faster until a couple weeks ago, but when it kicked in, it kicked in. And thanks for this thread, which is what precipitated all of this for me.
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2006 11:07 AM
Chris,I read your posts and believe that you should reconsider that BQ. If you're running about 9:00 at lower temps at your Maff rate, a 3:45 marathon is absolutely within reach. Assuming your marathon will be run in relatively low temps, a 3:45 is about 8:30 miles. Do you know your max HR? You should be able to run the marathon at an avg HR above your Maff rate of 144, so 8:30 miles should not be out of the question. Worst case scenario you go out at 8:30's for 20 miles and realize then that you weren't ready. You'll get it the next time with more Maff training under your belt. Best of luck! Adam ------------------
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2006 11:20 AM
Martin,Great update...it's nice for newer members to see progress such as yours. I had a couple questions about your data...do you know what percentage your test levels are compared to your max HR? Do you know what your goal marathon HR would be right now? Best of luck! ------------------
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2006 12:00 PM
Another post thanking the weather gods.It was absolutely perfect this morning in the DC area. At 7am, it was 63 with a dew point of 55! I was checking my watch when I hit the 5 mile point in my route ~4 minutes ahead of schedule. 9:32 min/mi over 10.5 miles with an average heart rate of 147 bpm (my MAFF is 145 -- after 10 weeks of monk-like devotion I've started "cheating" some as MCM nears). Considering I averaged 172 bpm for my spring marathon, I'm hopeful of improving on my 4:00 time (9:09 pace). The 3:49 goal I have in the back of my mind (8:45 pace and 1 hour better than last year's MCM disaster) doesn't seem impossible... if the weather's good! Greg
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2006 12:11 PM
"I had a couple questions about your data...do you know what percentage your test levels are compared to your max HR? Do you know what your goal marathon HR would be right now?"When I started, I thought my max was 163. But then I ran a 5k in which my monitor recorded a 169 and a 10k which recorded a 167 peak. I use 167 (resting HR = 45) figuring that conservative estimates are better. So, the percentages are as follows: 115 (69%), 125 (75%), 135 (81%), 145 (87%). My goal HR is @145 (which, in a perfect universe would be @7:40/mi).
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mmoonhead
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2006 12:28 PM
Hi everyone - I've decided to give this a whirl as well. I just completed my first marathon a couple weeks ago and also got an HRM . I've tentatively have set early next year as my next attempt at a full, and I figured the next 3 months or so would be great for laying down some base aerobic run mileage.What I was confused about (BTW, great FAQ section link) was the MaxHR in relation to the MAFF number I got (146 for me). Basically, if my MaxHR turns out lower than the 180, would that mean I should lower my THR as well? Or is the MAFF number the number I should stick with. And is there some other relationship(s) between MaxHR and my THR that I should be concerned about? Thanks in advance! ------------------
"Some people just take a little more time to come around..." Yeah, It's Me
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Chris345
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2006 01:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aharmer:
Chris,I read your posts and believe that you should reconsider that BQ. If you're running about 9:00 at lower temps at your Maff rate, a 3:45 marathon is absolutely within reach. Assuming your marathon will be run in relatively low temps, a 3:45 is about 8:30 miles. Do you know your max HR? You should be able to run the marathon at an avg HR above your Maff rate of 144, so 8:30 miles should not be out of the question. Worst case scenario you go out at 8:30's for 20 miles and realize then that you weren't ready. You'll get it the next time with more Maff training under your belt. Best of luck! Adam
I'm hoping the marathon is low temps (Chicago)! I'm going to play it by ear. If I'm feeling good I'll go for it but I want to have realistic goals and not go out too hard since I had a PW last year. Right now the difference between a 9 min mile and 8:30 seems huge and I'm pretty sure I can't maintain that pace. I don't know what my max is- I'm considering doing a test for that sometime soon.
Thanks
Chris
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2006 06:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chris345:
Thanks for the reply. This is actually my 5th marathon but I took a break and had a baby so technically it may be my 2nd in terms of consecutive years. I'm not sure if MAF will improve my speed at all but I really did not have to slow down much anyway. I think I was already in pretty good aerobic shape before I started. I was doing my long runs at a 9:30 pace and still do. When I do my shorter runs when it's the temp. is below 70 my MAF is actually around a 9 minute pace. My original goal was BQ 3:45 but it was clear to me that pace is out of reach with speed work or not. My new goal is under 4 hours and I think MAF will get me there just fine. I'd like to have some wiggle room and am feeling pretty good so I think I will increase my mileage a bit and see how it goes. Now that I'm not killing myself with speedwork, I'm much happier while running so even if I don't get a fabulous marathon time I'm happier overall and maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.Side question if you have time: My MAF is 144 should I increase my Marathon HR by x%? thanks
Chris
Ok, gotcha. What are your times for shorter races and your
best marathon times? I will suggest that you do not use any
specific % of MAF for your marathon. This is going to be unique
to the person and to the person's current fitness level, tolerance
for pain, lactate threshold, etc. I know what I use now and you
can look at earlier posts where I show all of my splits and HRavg
for each split for many of my recent marathons. The approach
I used before any such knowledge was to find a "comfortably
challenging" pace to sustain, take note of the heart rate, stick
with it for a good 10-12 miles, making sure it's not climbing
tremendously at a consistent pace, then let it slowly climb 2-3
beats every few miles or so, and kick it in more at mile 20 if
feeling good. Very ambiguous, I know.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2006 07:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mmoonhead:
What I was confused about (BTW, great FAQ section link) was the MaxHR in relation to the MAFF number I got (146 for me). Basically, if my MaxHR turns out lower than the 180, would that mean I should lower my THR as well? Or is the MAFF number the number I should stick with. And is there some other relationship(s) between MaxHR and my THR that I should be concerned about? Thanks in advance!
The number 180 has absolutely nothing to do with your max
heart rate. If your max heart rate is known to be very low
(let's say at least 10 beats lower than what 220-age would predict)
then the MAF number is going to be too high of a target heart rate
for you and you should follow Hadd's approach. Which reminds
me that a very astute contributor forwarded me a copy of the
Hadd article that I have neglected to add to the FAQ - I will
do this shortly since that link is now bad! ------------------
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