posted Jul-29-2006 12:33 PM               

I've got just a touch of light-headedness, was wasted after a nine mile run (my longest by a mile and a half for this year) for two days, and was sweating profusely even indoors today. Without the HRM slowing me down, it'd probably be much worse.

Looks like I will have to back off with my running. I think I'll run 3-4 short runs indoors this week and see if my body seems to be recovering. I've done a bit of research and what I have is apparently a Cumulative Heat Stress (or Exhaustion).

Just posting in case anyone else has seen their times worsen more than expected in this heatwave. Take care of yourselves

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posted Jul-29-2006 12:40 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jme32:
I've been reading these posts and have found them very informative. I want to try this method of training since I haven't been seeing much improvement lately. I normally run between 18 and 30 miles a week combined with 40 to 60 miles a week on the bike. After reading this thread I think I have probably been training at to high a HR on my runs. Usually on my runs my HR is in the high 160's to low 170's--I live in one of the few places in Florida that actually has hills, and combined with the heat and humidity I have found that it is almost impossible to keep a lower HR in these conditions. I have purchased a treadmill so that my workouts can be more controlled but my question is this, Is Karvonen's method more accurate because it takes resting HR into consideration or will it be better to use the MAF formula?

---

Kharvonen is not really a heart rate method of training, it's just
an approach for estimating a percentage level of effort. Hence,
depending on what %of HRR you use will relate to some approximation
of what zone you are in. Using Maffetone/Mark Allen's approach,
the MAF heart rate is telling you a ceiling above which you will
be using fewer aerobic properties and more anaerobic properties.
Purely my own somewhat educated opinion, based on data from
myself and many others, any approach that gives a strict percentage
of max heart rate or heart rate reserve has a good chance of being
off the mark because there can be a lot or few heart beats between
the anaerobic threshold and the max heart rate and hence some
percentage (even if you remove the RHR) may not give a good
estimate for the inflection point between anaerobic and aerobic
systems. Furthermore, if you are using a fixed percentage of
HRR to estimate an aerobic zone, it will tell you to run at a higher
heart rate if you are overtrained, injured, sick, or whatever other
basis gives you a higher resting heart rate. In that sense, it's
somewhat opposite of Maffetone's approach. Nonetheless, the
key message from this thread, assuming you want to try to reap
the benefits that most have reaped using such an approach, is
to always err on the side of running at a lower heart rate in most
of your training runs and/or during your basebuilding period. Many
people become frustrated, at least initially, on how slowly they
have to "run" to stay in zone, so they search around for an
approach that recommends a much higher heart rate (frequently
right around what they were already using and having the problems
that led them to investigating this method) and end up right back
where they were. There's no doubt that there are many ways
to improve, but if you want to see the results that are indicated
within this thread, the lower the heart rate, the better (for most
training runs, all runs during the base phase).

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posted Jul-29-2006 12:46 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by VikeKingDan:
So I've been struggling through 90-95° heat for the past ten days (unaccustomed to it in Minnesota) and my times have been getting progressively worse. I thought maybe it was just the weather on those particular days causing my times to regress a month - I've been trying for about seven weeks. Today I ran an indoor treadmill test and stepped off after just 3.29 miles, mad, disgusted, and....mad.

I've got just a touch of light-headedness, was wasted after a nine mile run (my longest by a mile and a half for this year) for two days, and was sweating profusely even indoors today. Without the HRM slowing me down, it'd probably be much worse.

Looks like I will have to back off with my running. I think I'll run 3-4 short runs indoors this week and see if my body seems to be recovering. I've done a bit of research and what I have is apparently a Cumulative Heat Stress (or Exhaustion).

Just posting in case anyone else has seen their times worsen more than expected in this heatwave. Take care of yourselves

---

I certainly have. Haven't hit the exhaustion part, but certainly
have seen my times get much worse as temps climbed. In
fact, in the weeks before Grandma's Marathon, including when
I was staying in Minneapolis the week before, my pace was in
the 10:30s-11s when it had been in the high 8s/low 9s just a few
weeks before. Nonetheless, I still ran Grandma's at about a 7:30/mile
pace, even in the warm-hot weather. So, I just don't worry about it.
I do pay very close attention to hydration, however. It seems as
though my worst days are tied to dehydration that I wasn't really
paying attention to.

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posted Jul-29-2006 01:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by VikeKingDan:
So I've been struggling through 90-95° heat for the past ten days (unaccustomed to it in Minnesota) and my times have been getting progressively worse. I thought maybe it was just the weather on those particular days causing my times to regress a month - I've been trying for about seven weeks. Today I ran an indoor treadmill test and stepped off after just 3.29 miles, mad, disgusted, and....mad.

I've got just a touch of light-headedness, was wasted after a nine mile run (my longest by a mile and a half for this year) for two days, and was sweating profusely even indoors today. Without the HRM slowing me down, it'd probably be much worse.

Looks like I will have to back off with my running. I think I'll run 3-4 short runs indoors this week and see if my body seems to be recovering. I've done a bit of research and what I have is apparently a Cumulative Heat Stress (or Exhaustion).

Just posting in case anyone else has seen their times worsen more than expected in this heatwave. Take care of yourselves

---

VIKEKINGDAN,

I know exactly what you mean and what you are going through. I am a warm-weather lover, but the temps. and humidity here in Illinois have smothered me completely. I used to be able to run, and run and run...not anymore in this weather. I can go an hour an hour ten, and then it hits....lightheadness, and real, real tired. I could actually fall asleep when I run at this point!! My legs still going!! That's when I power-walk home.

I opted for the treadmill the other day and it was so much better and so was the pace!! About 3 minutes a mile better than running outside. It is frustrating. But what can you do when the sun is beating down on you, and the temps is in the 90's and the humidity is the same!!! It's awful!

I have really messed up my long runs, and trainig schedule for Chicago because of the weather. I've lost motivation, and I know I'll be mad at myself it I give up. I would rather run outside than on a treadmill. The only way to do this is get up at 3:30 a.m. and do all the things I need to do to prepare to run, and then do it. I get alittle scared being the only one on the road that time of the morning, but it's doable. (I can carry pepper-spray!!) Of course I tell myself to get up, but I haven't yet!!

I think you are feeling yucky because the heat has pulled alot out of you. When I run in this weather, I'm usually spent for the rest of the day, and that's no fun. JESSE...alas MAFF THREAD STARTER commented on a post of mine that I could be dehydrated, and that very well could play a role in why I've been pooping out in my running lately. Maybe that's a cause for you, too. Drink more, and more. I don't know what else to say.

Kris

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posted Jul-30-2006 05:17 PM               

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posted Jul-30-2006 09:14 PM            

I’ve got a couple of questions re maffing while cross-training on a bike.

I can’t run for the next 4 months due to medial meniscus injury. My MAF is about 145 and up to the injury I was running 30 mpw with the HR below 145 95% of the time.

Now I intend to do some regular cycling to maintain or ideally keep improving my aerobic base. I imagine my HR will spike up above 145 quickly on hills or at sustained fastish pace (for me).

My questions are:

1. Is the formula for MAF the same for non-running activities?
Ie in my case should I be keeping my HR below 145 when cycling?

2. To try to replicate a long run (for me 2-hours), what should the duration of the ride be?

Thanks

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posted Jul-30-2006 09:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Earthshiner:

My questions are:

1. Is the formula for MAF the same for non-running activities?
Ie in my case should I be keeping my HR below 145 when cycling?

2. To try to replicate a long run (for me 2-hours), what should the duration of the ride be?

Thanks

---

1. Well, according to Maffetone and Mark Allen you'll use the
same number for cycling, swimming, lawnmowing, or whatever
and that's what I use.

2. IMHO, you can't replicate a run with a bike ride. Nonetheless,
if you're trying to equalize as much as possible, I would say it
depends very much on the hilliness of the course. For a hilly
bike course and a mildly hilly run, I would generally use about
50 miles biking ~ 13 miles running. Maybe roughly 3-2 in time.
This assumes a person of equal fitness running and biking.
Someone with poor running fitness and strong biking fitness
will require a lot more time on the bike, and vice versa.

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posted Aug-01-2006 01:20 PM               

Boston124, there's a bit of a difference in what I'm seeing. I went to the treadmill and DIDN'T see that marked reduction in my splits. In fact, I was a minute a mile slower than a similar treadmill run a month ago and barely faster at 72°F in air conditioning than I was in 90°+ with high humidity outside. When that happens, you have something more serious going on that just a hot day.

I'm going to spend the week indoors with short runs to recover and I'll post back with whether or not that seems to "fix" me.

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posted Aug-01-2006 03:29 PM            

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posted Aug-01-2006 09:12 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
Since I am only 12 weeks out from Chicago a friend and I were discussing various aspects of the race. One topic was hydration and how much I expected to dring during the thon. That is when I started to wonder how much Jessed drinks during his marathons? What is it? How many ounces of liquid do you consume during a Marathon? Do you only drink at the water stations or do you carry water with you? It is not a real MAF question but I think it is interesting.
Thanks, kcy

---

I carry nothing in any race up to 50 miles. I drink only at the water
stops, generally gatorade or whatever sports drink they have. If it's
hot out, I'll sometimes have two cups at a stop, but for cool-mild
weather, one small cup will do. In a 50 mile race, I'll spend more time
at each stop eating and drinking. In Grandma's marathon this year,
it's the hottest (regular) marathon I've run, and I drank the most -
probably about 12-15 of the little 6-8 oz cups during the race. I
think I already mentioned what I had in my 89 miles at Vermont,
which was about 9-10 gallons over the 21 hours, but 90% of that
race was between about 87 and 91 degrees.

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posted Aug-01-2006 09:19 PM               

I just got back from the SanFrancisco marathon and I have posted a race report over in "Run and race reports". But I wanted to say in here that this training has really improved my running tremendously! On a very hilly course, I clocked a 3:47:24 for my second marathon after running my first last Oct. on a flat course before Maff training in 4:16, having crashed and burned after mile 20! Their was no crash this time, but I did slow down somewhat due to improper pacing early on, still a novice at this distance! I'm not sure if my Garmin was real accurate but here are my splits with HR's:

8:30/141, 8:23/140, 9:15/142(uphill), 7:54/145, 8:03/142, 8:51/147, 8:07/143, 8:03/142, 7:51/149, 7:55/145, 7:50/148, 8:40/147, 8:17/147, 7:52/145, 8:17/146, 8:37/149, 9:18/149, 7:49/151, 8:43/152, 8:14/151, 8:08/152, 8:05/154, 9:00/156, 9:59/153, 9:26/152, 9:13/154, 6;58/157(last .81 miles, Garmin had it at 26.81).

As you can see, my splits are all over the place, partly due to the hills; hammering the downs and slowing on the ups, but part of this is due to inexperience as well! I know this is a huge improvement over my first so I am really happy! However, next time I'm going in a pace group on a flatter course and shoot for 3:30! I just want to thank Jesse, JWaverly, Aharmer, and others for all your advice! I'm going to go into low HR training phase 2 soon after a little rest and see where I can take this thing, but so far so good!

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posted Aug-01-2006 09:34 PM               

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posted Aug-04-2006 09:49 PM               

Why would sneaking in higher HR race or two a month negate your biological adaptation process to a low HR so quickly?

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posted Aug-05-2006 04:48 AM               

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posted Aug-05-2006 04:59 AM            

Were you running near any power lines. That can cause the monitor to give false readings.

Also, do you use any sort of electrode gel? Sometimes the monitor doesn't get good contact with your chest and you get those kind of readings. When you use the gel you usually get more reliable readings, but not always.

I use Axiom gel that I got at a local bike shop for 8 dollars = about 4 pounds sterling. Its a 4 ounce bottle but it lasts me about 4 months or more. Jesse uses Buh Bump. Not sure where he buys it.

You could use any electrode gel/cream and should be able to get them from some pharmacies ( I believe you call them Chemists).

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posted Aug-05-2006 05:29 AM               

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posted Aug-05-2006 05:28 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prentice:
Yeah, so what is the deal with the no racing rule when building an aerobic base a la Maffetone/Hadd etc.?

Why would sneaking in higher HR race or two a month negate your biological adaptation process to a low HR so quickly?

---

Well, I think some people get away with sneaking in races just fine.
However, I can only really approximately quote what Maffetone,
Hadd, and other say, and that is that doing anaerobic stuff during
the aerobic development period interferes with mitochondria development
and chisels away at the process of training your slow twitch fibers and
fat burning efficiency. I think it's most important to keep strictly low
your first time going through the basebuilding process. And after you've
been through a few rounds, you can probably mix it up just fine. One
thing's for sure, you can always see how it works for you and if you don't
see the type of progress that's expected, take note of how you
diverted from the suggested plan.

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posted Aug-05-2006 06:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prentice:
Yeah, so what is the deal with the no racing rule when building an aerobic base a la Maffetone/Hadd etc.?

Why would sneaking in higher HR race or two a month negate your biological adaptation process to a low HR so quickly?

---

Congrats on making your first post ever to Coolrunning, Prentice. And on one of the best threads ever! I hope you have a good time on the forum. You'll be a Coolrunner before you know it.

I think it's important to have an aerobic base period at least once a year for about 16 weeks. I do mine in the winter. Avoiding races not only gives my incredible, fast, and wonderous body a rest, but it also insures that I am working my aerobic system for a sizeable amount of time. That's why the MAff method is so effective--it insures I am staying aerobic. It might be on the low-end for some, but it still works. The tough thing at first was accepting how slow I suddenly had to run at first--ahhhh. I slowed down by several minutes per mile--I complained to my podner for weeks about it. She finally told me to choose it and shut up. I chose it and shut up. It took about 14 weeks to get back to the speed I use to work at, but my heart rate was 15-20 beats lower. PR-city after that. Also, felt healed in a way. I was running very high mileage, and felt like I was running just a few. Anyway, after the base period I'll begin racing, and keep most of my runs under MAF in between, with just a few tempo runs here and there. I find I won't lose my base too much during the race season if I keep most miles under MAF during the week. I think the best way to find out is to try it. It's how I found out I liked Chunky Monkey ice cream, pantyhose, and dancing on the beach (co). And of course, MAF. Go Dr. Phil.

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posted Aug-05-2006 09:01 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrowface:
It's how I found out I liked ..., pantyhose, ...

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Perhaps not all that relevant, but I can hijack the
thread I started. Whaddaya use 'em fer?

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posted Aug-05-2006 10:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
Perhaps not all that relevant, but I can hijack the
thread I started. Whaddaya use 'em fer?

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Warmth and look.
What else?

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posted Aug-05-2006 10:29 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrowface:
Warmth and look.
What else?

---

naturally

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posted Aug-06-2006 05:17 AM            

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posted Aug-06-2006 07:23 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Justanothermanicrunday:
I have been running for a year or so but kept injuring myself with weekly tempo run and especially weekly fast reps so I'm trying MAF training. I wanted to know if people still include a down week in terms of mileage/hours running every 3rd or 4th week or so? Is it needed if not doing any hard running. (Planning to gradually increase mileage sticking to MAF if that makes a difference). Also, is water enough if running 90 min or over in morning before eating.

---

I don't include any down weeks, but some do. You should see how
your body feels. I do periodically cut back a week after having done
several races, but not during the pure basebuilding phase. I don't
take in any carbs during training runs or rides up to 5 hours.

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posted Aug-06-2006 07:46 AM            

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posted Aug-06-2006 07:50 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Justanothermanicrunday:
Thanks leitnerj. You must get through alot of running shoes!

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I have about 30 pair that I rotate through, but ironically, nowadays
I've been continuing to run in them over 600 miles. I used to
dump them at 350.

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