posted Jul-21-2006 10:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by VikeKingDan:
When AHarmer suggested this thread, I did some online research and quickly concluded there are a lot of site that don't get it. In my opinion, HRR is better than HRMax to basing training off; however, most site that seem to realized this also use conventional research and experience to suggest that 70-75% range. You can't do that. The old stuff was based off of HRMax, so you have to adjust it down for HRR.

For example my MAF (180-39-5) is 139, which is about 76% of my HRMax, but just 65% of my HRR.

If Aharmer has a max and resting HR of 175 and 35, respectively, his training at 125 is 64% HRR and 71% of his HRMax. So he's not "Maffetoning" but he is training similarily to me.

Jesse is training at 58% HRR and /b]66%[/b] HRMax, so he's actually lower than Aharmer and I.

People who publish websites aren't necessarily experts and many times don't really understand the science behind what they're quoting. I ran into the same thing when I was lifting and researching online. Regurgitation of information by people who knew the numbers, but didn't understand the underlying mechanisms, confuses newcomers. I'll bet Maffetone himself would say that he oversimplified it a little bit to help ward off the confusion.

My point is, that HRR percentages could very well be the way to go, but that it's 60-65% or even lower. Maffetone could have me running too fast based on Jesse's numbers. Eventually, probably next spring, I might try to lower my target HR to Jesse-type numbers.

---

Thanks for the info.

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posted Jul-23-2006 04:54 PM               

Somebody was asking about this training in Mainstream Racing so I thought I would bump it up.

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posted Jul-23-2006 05:06 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Relja:
One question for experience MAF runners. What is your breath pattern at MAF pulse: 4 step inhale, 4 step exhale or maybe more or less or it doesn't matter?
Did someone read John Douillard(ex thriatlete) book about nasal breathing and deep inhale? He recommends as much steps inhale and exhale as possible. I think Douillard can breath in pattern 8 step inhale, 8 step exhale. And also recommends heart rate little lower than Maffetone.

---

I can't say that I really think about it. Lower than Maffetone? Now
that's funny, although I do put in most of my mileage about 10 beats
lower than Maffetone would allow.

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posted Jul-24-2006 08:21 PM               

With all the slower miles, paces increasing as the base was building, how do you run a marathon/half marathon??

Jesse, you mentioned in a previous post that you don't run your MAFF during running events. How do you run a marathon, then??? If you trained that way, anything different could be harmful.....no???

I'm thinking if you go too far past MAFF, you may *hit the wall* and really run into trouble since one is not used to a high HR.

Just wondering.....

Kris

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posted Jul-24-2006 09:27 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:
Okay, all, here's the question.

With all the slower miles, paces increasing as the base was building, how do you run a marathon/half marathon??

Jesse, you mentioned in a previous post that you don't run your MAFF during running events. How do you run a marathon, then??? If you trained that way, anything different could be harmful.....no???

I'm thinking if you go too far past MAFF, you may *hit the wall* and really run into trouble since one is not used to a high HR.

Just wondering.....

Kris

---

Hi Kris!!

Nope. I train at a HR of around 139, rarely higher. I run
a marathon at a HR of 168-171 (avg - lower at the beginning,
higher at the end). I run a 50 mile race at around 157-162.
My average HR in the 100 mile race I just attempted (I only
made it 89.2 miles until my quads were no more from the
miles of steep downhills) was 137. My aerobic system was
fine. My quads were not. No walls in any of those races.
If you look through the earlier posts in this thread, you can
find a post where I consolidated most of my recent
marathon splits and average heart rates. On the contrary,
if you spend tons of time running below MAF, you will
develop such a strong aerobic system, it will be good
through much, much higher heart rates! That is what
I consider one of the best things about this stuff.

Side note- if you have no idea where your lactate
threshold is, you'll have to be conservative at first
in races until you get an understanding. Mine is around
177, so I'm safe for the marathon at around 170.

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posted Jul-24-2006 10:35 PM            

Hey, I just read your race report. Congratulations on your Vermont 89.2! Sorry to hear about your quads giving out on you. Darn it, you just about made it the whole way. I remember it really wasn’t that long ago that you felt you would never make it over 50 miles in one week. Now you are at a point in your running that you can almost double that in one day! WOW! Just think of this one as your Vermont training run. Next year you will know not to eat greasy pizza and hot peppers the day before the race. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? Next year you will do so much better.

Now before I forget. About your quads. Get down on the floor, sit on your heels, and then lean back over towards the floor. You will feel a great stretch in the quads. Do this a few times a day to help them return to normal. You need to keep doing this stretch until your quads stop tightening up on you.

And of course, keep Maffing.

I had to put this in to keep from hijacking the thread!

Stealth

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posted Jul-25-2006 05:27 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by StealthRunner:
Hi Jesse!

Hey, I just read your race report. Congratulations on your Vermont 89.2! Sorry to hear about your quads giving out on you. Darn it, you just about made it the whole way. I remember it really wasn’t that long ago that you felt you would never make it over 50 miles in one week. Now you are at a point in your running that you can almost double that in one day! WOW! Just think of this one as your Vermont training run. Next year you will know not to eat greasy pizza and hot peppers the day before the race. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? Next year you will do so much better.

Now before I forget. About your quads. Get down on the floor, sit on your heels, and then lean back over towards the floor. You will feel a great stretch in the quads. Do this a few times a day to help them return to normal. You need to keep doing this stretch until your quads stop tightening up on you.

And of course, keep Maffing.

I had to put this in to keep from hijacking the thread!

Stealth

---

Thanks, Stealth! Quads are all back to normal. Took about 5 days.
I even did a 22 mile trail run on Sunday (which was a bit much,
even for me!)

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posted Jul-25-2006 07:53 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Hi Kris!!

Nope. I train at a HR of around 139, rarely higher. I run
a marathon at a HR of 168-171 (avg - lower at the beginning,
higher at the end). I run a 50 mile race at around 157-162.
My average HR in the 100 mile race I just attempted (I only
made it 89.2 miles until my quads were no more from the
miles of steep downhills) was 137. My aerobic system was
fine. My quads were not. No walls in any of those races.
If you look through the earlier posts in this thread, you can
find a post where I consolidated most of my recent
marathon splits and average heart rates. On the contrary,
if you spend tons of time running below MAF, you will
develop such a strong aerobic system, it will be good
through much, much higher heart rates! That is what
I consider one of the best things about this stuff.

Side note- if you have no idea where your lactate
threshold is, you'll have to be conservative at first
in races until you get an understanding. Mine is around
177, so I'm safe for the marathon at around 170.

---

Hello Jesse!!!

I am so impressed with your inner strength and mental drive to train and attempt these higher mileage runs/races. You really are a WACKO!! Just kidding, you are really driven.

You should be so pleased you ran as far as you did. I know, from just emails, and all these post, that you will work out the tweaks and go the start line again, and run past the finish!! You will do it!! AND...all the posters here will be reading the race report in awe!

Thanks for your reply (so quickly after the race, no less!!) regarding HR and running in a marathon or half. I was just curious how far I could take it and not poop out. I don't know what my lactate threshold is....just max HR of 191. My MAFF is nothing above 139/140.

Yesterday was interesting, and frustrating. The humidity was high and I wanted to get in a 9 or 10 miler. So, I put on my Camel Back which adds weight and began the run. About 6/7 miles into it I pooped out. I noticed my HR was higher, 149-152 towards the end and I just was so tired, I power-walked home. I was mad at myself I didn't use my mental strength to finish. Just too tired.

While I know we all have a bad run here-n-there, I was still disappointed. It started off well, but I could tell from the weight of the Camel Back Hydration Sack that my HR went up faster in the warm-up phase then when I don't use it. Plus the humidity here in Illinois is at 90%. Yet, I'm down. I will attempt another shot at this on Wed./Thurs. Today will just be a shorter run, 5 miles of recovery without the sack, and on the treadmill indoors!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, Jesse, I think you are marvelous athelete, runner, and support person for the posters here. Did you get any pictures taken on the course???

Take care, Kris~

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posted Jul-25-2006 08:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by StealthRunner:

And no tips or other suggestions?

---

fredurie's just lording it over us. His resting HR is -12

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posted Jul-25-2006 09:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuzz:
fredurie's just lording it over us. His resting HR is -12

---

On a bad day!

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posted Jul-25-2006 06:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:
Hello Jesse!!!

I am so impressed with your inner strength and mental drive to train and attempt these higher mileage runs/races. You really are a WACKO!! Just kidding, you are really driven.

You should be so pleased you ran as far as you did. I know, from just emails, and all these post, that you will work out the tweaks and go the start line again, and run past the finish!! You will do it!! AND...all the posters here will be reading the race report in awe!

Thanks for your reply (so quickly after the race, no less!!) regarding HR and running in a marathon or half. I was just curious how far I could take it and not poop out. I don't know what my lactate threshold is....just max HR of 191. My MAFF is nothing above 139/140.

Yesterday was interesting, and frustrating. The humidity was high and I wanted to get in a 9 or 10 miler. So, I put on my Camel Back which adds weight and began the run. About 6/7 miles into it I pooped out. I noticed my HR was higher, 149-152 towards the end and I just was so tired, I power-walked home. I was mad at myself I didn't use my mental strength to finish. Just too tired.

While I know we all have a bad run here-n-there, I was still disappointed. It started off well, but I could tell from the weight of the Camel Back Hydration Sack that my HR went up faster in the warm-up phase then when I don't use it. Plus the humidity here in Illinois is at 90%. Yet, I'm down. I will attempt another shot at this on Wed./Thurs. Today will just be a shorter run, 5 miles of recovery without the sack, and on the treadmill indoors!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, Jesse, I think you are marvelous athelete, runner, and support person for the posters here. Did you get any pictures taken on the course???

Take care, Kris~

---

Thanks, Kris. Just a couple of comments. First, did you weigh
yourself before and after your run? With the heat, you not only
get, well, heat, but you can get tremendous dehydration. And it
can happen very quickly. Every time I see a tremendous
degradation in pace during a run, especially early on, I notice
that I had severe dehydration, even if I was carrying my camelbak
(not drinking frequently enough). You should always check.
As far as being able to maintain MAF+ during a race - if you don't
know your anaerobic threshold, then you need to be experimental
about it. Start out at, say MAF+15 or so, and ease your way up,
a few beats at a time. That's basically what I did.

I dug around through the Vermont 100 photos a bit and found
these (let's see if this works):
Jesse - VT photo 1
Jesse - VT photo 2
Jesse - VT photo 3

There may be others, but there are too many pics to rummage
through.
These were around mile 40, during a 4 mile climb. I think you may
have to hold the mouse over the page to see them after clicking
the link.

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posted Jul-25-2006 09:49 PM            

I have been reading this thread (and the one before it) on and off, with a great deal of interest for some time. I recently got a HR monitor and while I haven't totally decided to follow through with 6+ weeks of Maff training, I know I've been running too fast, and I think that following this method will help me slow down.

I hope you don't mind me asking the same question everyone else under the sun is- am I running at the right MAF heart rate?

I am 24 years old- I know, right outside the 25-50 age group where this has been really tested. That puts my MAF at 156. I have been running consistently for about 7 months, and have no illnesses or conditions and don't take medication. Since 156 is 79% of my estimated 197 max heart rate (taken in a 5-mile race on a somewhat hilly course in warm and humid conditions), I thought that was too high. So I've been trying to keep my heart rate under 151 (MAF-5). That's still about 75% of my max HR. Too high? I'm running slower than I've ever run before, and the little niggling pains in my knees are going away, but I worry I'm still running too fast.

Thanks for opinions; I'm more than anything just looking for a way to build my mileage without injury. I am currently running about 20 mpw and would like to at least double it. I know that that is a low volume to see progress with this method, but if my only progress is an increased volume with no injuries, that's fine with me.

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posted Jul-25-2006 10:54 PM               

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posted Jul-25-2006 11:07 PM            

Thanks!

--Kymber

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posted Jul-26-2006 05:27 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kymber:
Quick Question: If you are a new runner would you recommend starting out with this program (focusing on aerobic endurance) or starting out with something like C25K?

Thanks!

--Kymber

---

HI Kymber - This is not a program - it's just a guideline for making
sure that you spend some time running aerobically. You should
follow c25k. You can use what you learn from this as a means to
keep you from overdoing it in training runs.

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posted Jul-26-2006 07:13 AM               

Nope. I train at a HR of around 139, rarely higher. I run
a marathon at a HR of 168-171 (avg - lower at the beginning,
higher at the end). I run a 50 mile race at around 157-162.
My average HR in the 100 mile race I just attempted (I only
made it 89.2 miles until my quads were no more from the
miles of steep downhills) was 137. My aerobic system was
fine. My quads were not. No walls in any of those races.
If you look through the earlier posts in this thread, you can
find a post where I consolidated most of my recent
marathon splits and average heart rates. On the contrary,
if you spend tons of time running below MAF, you will
develop such a strong aerobic system, it will be good
through much, much higher heart rates! That is what
I consider one of the best things about this stuff.

Side note- if you have no idea where your lactate
threshold is, you'll have to be conservative at first
in races until you get an understanding. Mine is around
177, so I'm safe for the marathon at around 170.

Good Morning, Jesse!

It's possible that dehydration could be a cause. I never really thought of that, or thought I experienced it, but it is likely. I know, lately, I haven't been drinking well, especially during the day, and in the night, I wake up thirsty and have two water bottle on the bed side table and drink them both. So, dehydration could be a cause. Weighing myself...what would I look for before and after a run? If I lost alot after the run, would that mean dehydration, or the other way around? I really don't weigh myself at all. I can if I knew what to look for. Thanks.

I really wanted to blame the Camelback....I don't think I like using it....it sloshes, is cumbersome, and heavy. I haven't used it much, do you??? Does anyone else reading this post use a Camelback on long runs???? OR does anyone have something else they use on long runs for hydration that they find works well??

Today, right now, at 6:25 a.m. it is raining, and the humidity is awful, here in Illinois. The treadmill and I have a date shortly!! I guess it's a run with morning news and GMA! Could be worse!

By the way, I like your hand-held bottles in your Vermont 100 pictures!!! How are you feeling by now??

Kris

[This message has been edited by Boston124 (edited Jul-26-2006).]

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posted Jul-26-2006 12:47 PM               

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posted Jul-26-2006 03:58 PM            

If you read back through here, you'll see where I've been running between 8:30-9:00 miles on most days to stay under the MAF ceiling. Most of my weekly mileage has been under 40 mpw due to life events. I think that higher mileage would yield greater benefits, but that's another story.

Anyway, I jumped on the t-mill yesterday and decided to run 5 miles by alternating 5-minute periods of 8-minute pace and 6:58 pace. Both are faster than my MAF pace. I cruised through the workout and even found the 6:58 pace to be quite comfortable. My HR got up to 164 during the last "fast" 5 minute interval, which is only 14 bpm above my MAF ceiling. During many of the 8-minute segments, my HR dropped to 148 or so, and 8-minute pace felt like I was crawling as compared to being a "fastish" pace not so many weeks ago. When I hit the last fast segment, I had only 3/8-mile to go, so I cranked it up to 6:18 pace. It still felt good, and my HR only went up to 172.

While it can be frustratingly slow to run below MAF, it is worthwhile. I'm not wearing the HRM as much as I was (vanity and having to get my 4-5 mile runs in quicker due to life events), but I still try to use most of the time.

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posted Jul-26-2006 09:14 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by leitnerj:
[B]

It's possible that dehydration could be a cause. I never really thought of that, or thought I experienced it, but it is likely. I know, lately, I haven't been drinking well, especially during the day, and in the night, I wake up thirsty and have two water bottle on the bed side table and drink them both. So, dehydration could be a cause. Weighing myself...what would I look for before and after a run? If I lost alot after the run, would that mean dehydration, or the other way around? I really don't weigh myself at all. I can if I knew what to look for. Thanks.

I really wanted to blame the Camelback....I don't think I like using it....it sloshes, is cumbersome, and heavy. I haven't used it much, do you??? Does anyone else reading this post use a Camelback on long runs???? OR does anyone have something else they use on long runs for hydration that they find works well??

Today, right now, at 6:25 a.m. it is raining, and the humidity is awful, here in Illinois. The treadmill and I have a date shortly!! I guess it's a run with morning news and GMA! Could be worse!

By the way, I like your hand-held bottles in your Vermont 100 pictures!!! How are you feeling by now??

Kris

[This message has been edited by Boston124 (edited Jul-26-2006).]

---

I'm all recovered now and back to my normal schedule (22 mile
trail run on Sunday - more than I needed - and a 13 mile run
this morning, along with my usual swims and lunch time bike
rides). Those amphipod hand-helds are awesome - great
for ultras - and when you fall face first (a very common
experience), you land on them!

Dehydration - if you lose more than a few pounds of weight
during your run - that's a problem - a sign that you're not
hydrating well - and it will be the cause of very significant
climb in heart rate.

I wear a camelback (120 oz) for my long runs in heat, and
frequently that isn't enough to keep me from severe dehydration.
As I mentioned, in Vermont, in the high 80s, up to about 92,
I was drinking about 60 oz/hour and I ended up about 5 lbs
down at the end. Over 10 gallons over the 21 hour period
(80 lbs of fluid - almost half my body weight).

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posted Jul-26-2006 10:04 PM            

If after you fill it up, you then turn it upside down and suck the air out through the sip tube, you won't slosh.

Yes after you suck the air out, you put it in the camelbak right side up, as you normally would. You basically do a vacuum pack and take the air out.

If you put the full bladder in the refrigerator the night before, it will actually cool you down as you run.

Some folks half fill it put it in the freezer, then just before they run they top off the camelbak with fluid so they have cold liquid the whole run. Make sure no liquid in the sip tube though when it goes in the freezer..

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posted Jul-27-2006 07:13 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Kris, just a note on the camelbak sloshing.

If after you fill it up, you then turn it upside down and suck the air out through the sip tube, you won't slosh.

Yes after you suck the air out, you put it in the camelbak right side up, as you normally would. You basically do a vacuum pack and take the air out.

If you put the full bladder in the refrigerator the night before, it will actually cool you down as you run.

Some folks half fill it put it in the freezer, then just before they run they top off the camelbak with fluid so they have cold liquid the whole run. Make sure no liquid in the sip tube though when it goes in the freezer..

---

CASHMASON....

....Thank you for your ideas! I'm gonna try all of them!

Kris~

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posted Jul-27-2006 12:42 PM               

Dehydration - if you lose more than a few pounds of weight
during your run - that's a problem - a sign that you're not
hydrating well - and it will be the cause of very significant
climb in heart rate.

I wear a camelback (120 oz) for my long runs in heat, and
frequently that isn't enough to keep me from severe dehydration.
As I mentioned, in Vermont, in the high 80s, up to about 92,
I was drinking about 60 oz/hour and I ended up about 5 lbs
down at the end. Over 10 gallons over the 21 hour period
(80 lbs of fluid - almost half my body weight).

SO JESSE>>>

A 120 oz. Camelback....that adds weight to run with. Doesn't that effect your HR? I would think extra weight makes your HR to go up, cause your heart has work harder, right?? Sooo....if your HR is higher, because of the weight, and your following MAFF, you really are going slower than normal and that makes your pace slower. But this would only occur in the beginning of the run because as you drink you lose some of the weight.

I know on long runs you have to use some type of hydration system, I use a Camelback too.....anything over 7 miles in hot weather. Under that, I just use a hand-held.

I just ordered some of the Amphipods. (sp??) I have never seen them before. I think they may hold more than a regular hand-held. I think the one I use now is about 18 oz. Not much more than than. Even if they aren't larger, I liked the way they looked.

My RHR is getting lower and lower. Good sign!!

Kris~

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posted Jul-27-2006 06:15 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:

SO JESSE>>>

A 120 oz. Camelback....that adds weight to run with. Doesn't that effect your HR? I would think extra weight makes your HR to go up, cause your heart has work harder, right?? Sooo....if your HR is higher, because of the weight, and your following MAFF, you really are going slower than normal and that makes your pace slower. But this would only occur in the beginning of the run because as you drink you lose some of the weight.

I know on long runs you have to use some type of hydration system, I use a Camelback too.....anything over 7 miles in hot weather. Under that, I just use a hand-held.

I just ordered some of the Amphipods. (sp??) I have never seen them before. I think they may hold more than a regular hand-held. I think the one I use now is about 18 oz. Not much more than than. Even if they aren't larger, I liked the way they looked.

My RHR is getting lower and lower. Good sign!!

Kris~

---

Nah, it's just a few pounds. It really won't have a significant
effect on heart rate. And as your heart rate climbs, your
weight goes down.

Lower RHR is indeed a good sign!

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posted Jul-27-2006 09:29 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Nah, it's just a few pounds. It really won't have a significant
effect on heart rate. And as your heart rate climbs, your
weight goes down.

Lower RHR is indeed a good sign!

---

Whoops, I should have been clear - as your heart rate
climbs, your weight goes down because hopefully you're
drinking whatever's in your camelbak!

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posted Jul-29-2006 12:21 PM            

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