posted Jul-05-2006 03:04 PM               

Is your TM and outdoor pace really 1:45/mile different? Either you live in an extremely hot and/or hilly area, or your TM calibration must be off.

Hopefully it's the former, which means you are capable of a much stronger marathon than 3:30. If your TM MAF pace of 7:15 is accurate, depending on the marathon you run, you should expect to be able to do 7:15 pace minimum.

What is your max HR and MAF number? I could be mistaken but I seem to remember reading that an average runner should be able to sustain 82% of their max HR for the marathon distance. Fellow MAF'ers, does this sound accurate to you?

------------------
My Profile

IP: Logged

posted Jul-05-2006 04:34 PM               

IP: Logged

posted Jul-05-2006 06:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Cory,

Is your TM and outdoor pace really 1:45/mile different? Either you live in an extremely hot and/or hilly area, or your TM calibration must be off.

Hopefully it's the former, which means you are capable of a much stronger marathon than 3:30. If your TM MAF pace of 7:15 is accurate, depending on the marathon you run, you should expect to be able to do 7:15 pace minimum.

What is your max HR and MAF number? I could be mistaken but I seem to remember reading that an average runner should be able to sustain 82% of their max HR for the marathon distance. Fellow MAF'ers, does this sound accurate to you?

---

My max heart rate (measured in Jan) is 193. I used a VERY hard treadmill run and observed that number on my monitor. I'm 30 years old. I use 140 as a MAFF number b/c I take a script blood pressure med.

9/mile is a conservative number for my MAFF outside. Today was cool outside (73) and I ran 10 miles 1:30:51 (just over 9/mile) and averaged 138 HR for the run. Through 8 miles it was well below 9/mile, but miles 9 and 10 were 9:30 and 9:51.

I think that if you look at one of Jesse's recent posts you'll see that his numbers are similar. I'm sure he'll chime in and correct me if I'm off.

My treadmill is in the lower level of my home. I run on 1% incline. The temperature rarely climbs above 65 in that room. You could be correct, it may be off. But I dont think its as far off as you might be thinking.

Also the treadmill run that averaged 7:15 (+/-) was 7 miles long, not 10. I'm sure I would have slowed the last 3 miles

IP: Logged

posted Jul-05-2006 06:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:

What is your max HR and MAF number? I could be mistaken but I seem to remember reading that an average runner should be able to sustain 82% of their max HR for the marathon distance. Fellow MAF'ers, does this sound accurate to you?

---

According to Hadd, the best possible HR you can expect to maintain for a full marathon (without crashing, hitting the wall, etc) is 15-20 bpm below max HR. Even then, getting within 20 bpm of HRmax will be hard without proper training.

IP: Logged

posted Jul-05-2006 07:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Behnke:
Having recently read Aharmer's comments about max HR has got me wondering about the whole Mark Allen 180-age thing! I have been strict about the Maff-style training for 6 months and I have seen gains. The only potential problem is that I don't really know what my HR max really is. The reason I say this could be a problem is for proper pacing in a race. Maybe the reason Jesse can sustain HR's in the high 170's for the entire marathon is because his max HR is 210! If mine is 179 like the Mark Allen formula dictates, then 82% of 179 is around 147 bpm and I would have to pace accordingly. Jesse's 210 would give him 172 bpm at the same 82% of max HR. The McMillan calculator says I should run like a 3:26 marathon based off of a recent 5K of 21:11. I'm already planning on going to the conservative side of this and aiming for around 3:40. But even to obtain this goal I would have to run an 8:25-8:30 pace. I can do this pace fairly comfortably for 7-8 miles during a MP run but for 26.2? I'm pretty sure that if I try it my HR at some point will climb into the high 150's,160's! If my max HR is around 179(180-age) can I sustain it? I guess will see as my race is in 3 weeks!

---

Don't base any judgments on max heart rate unless your max is
very low, just like aharmer's is. The reason I can sustain an avg
HR in a marathon of 170-172 is because my anaerobic threshold is
177. Bewteen AT and max heart rate, there are many useless
heart beats for endurance running! It is much more important to
know AT than maxHR and you can eventually learn what it is, but
it takes time. What Mark Allen formula for max heart rate are you
referring to? I haven't heard of one that he discusses.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Jul-05-2006 07:13 PM               

Did you get 179 from the 220-age formula? If so you're probably training at about 139 (180-age)? You really should do a max HR test, it's important to know that number. For example, my MHR is only about 175, so I train at about 70% of that number, or 125. MAF formula says I should be at 144 or over 82% of my max. In my opinion this is too high. If I had just taken the formula as gospel and trained at 144 I may not have seen the benefits I'm seeing now.

You're right about Jesse...with a high max HR he is able to sustain higher HR's during marathons. His % of max, however, will be similar to similarly trained athletes. The better aerobic base an athlete builds, and the further he/she extends their lactate threshold, the higher % of max HR they can sustain for a marathon. Jesse is probably able to sustain a higher % than most people. I know that in many marathons he doesn't really extend himself at all.

To determine MHR, do a very good warmup (5-6 mile run) followed by intervals...steep hills work very well...to complete exhaustion. If your max is lower than the formula prescribes you may need to move your training HR down. If it turns out to be higher, you've got more wiggle room to work with when it comes to marathon pacing.

I'm no coach but here's what I'd do for pacing if I were running my first marathon. First, determine your actual max HR. Assuming you'll be wearing your monitor during the race, take 80% of your max and stick as close to it as you can. You'll feel like you can go much faster, even at 13-14 miles. Stick to it until you get to 20 and evaluate your condition then. If you still feel great, push the pace the final 10K and know that you left a little bit on the table...you'll know better next time. This will make it far more enjoyable than going out like a maniac and slamming into the wall at 20 and having to crawl home in a MUCH slower time.

I want to say again, I'm not a coach or expert on this stuff so take my opinion for what it is...my opinion. Good luck!

------------------
My Profile

IP: Logged

posted Jul-05-2006 08:10 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Cory,

Is your TM and outdoor pace really 1:45/mile different? Either you live in an extremely hot and/or hilly area, or your TM calibration must be off.

Hopefully it's the former, which means you are capable of a much stronger marathon than 3:30. If your TM MAF pace of 7:15 is accurate, depending on the marathon you run, you should expect to be able to do 7:15 pace minimum.

What is your max HR and MAF number? I could be mistaken but I seem to remember reading that an average runner should be able to sustain 82% of their max HR for the marathon distance. Fellow MAF'ers, does this sound accurate to you?

---

just for reference - in cool and ideal weather, my pace on flat
treadmill is about 1:30/mile faster than outdoors with hills (ok, the
hills around here are all big). In hot, muggy weather, sometimes it's
3 min/mile different!

Once again, I really don't believe in % of max heart rate - I do believe
in % of anaerobic threshold.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Jul-05-2006 10:54 PM               

Thanks for your input. I was already leaning towards a steady build up with MAF until the marathon. I like what I'm seeing so far with this training and will stay with it until Mid-September. But, I think I already know what I'm going to do.

Kyle

IP: Logged

posted Jul-06-2006 10:38 AM            

------------------
My Running Page

IP: Logged

posted Jul-06-2006 05:44 PM               

IP: Logged

posted Jul-06-2006 06:35 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Behnke:
Thanks again to Jesse, Aharmer. Of course my next question would be: what is my AT or lactate threshold? If it is a percentage of my max HR then once again I will need to find my max HR. To Jesse, I was earlier referring to Mark Allen's 180-age formula which gives me a Maff of 139. I have done many runs over the last 6 months, from 6 to 22 milers at different HR numbers: 125,130,135 and also many runs where I let it go right to 139 and hold it there, so I think I've done the Maff thing correctly. I'm just trying to zero in on the proper pace for my second marathon in 3 weeks. I posted 1 page back on this thread my numbers from a MP run where I ran 7 miles in the low to mid 8's and my HR was 153 at the highest, and this was in 80F+ weather, so for a cool marathon like Frisco I might indeed be able to shoot for an 8:25 pace! I was just saying that without knowing my max HR if it is around say 179(220-age) that what I'll be trying to attempt might be to hold a HR around 90% of my max! Maybe I'll just forget about the whole max HR stuff for now and just run what my MP runs are telling me and what the McMillan calculator says, based off of recent race times.

---

You mentioned earlier Mark Allen's formula giving you 179, that's why
I asked that question. The 139 is certainly right. Now, anaerobic
threshold and lactate threshold cannot be determined as a % of
max heart rate. If you don't have a vo2max test or blood lactate
test then you have to use one of many estimation methods to
calculate, or you'll probably eventually learn it if you run enough races
of varying distances. If you google around, you'll find a number of
ways of estimating it. It will correspond to something between
about 10k and half marathon effort. The reason aharmer suggested
you should find your max heart rate is for the case where you might
be like him, with a very low max heart rate. Based on what you've
presented so far and the progress you have made, I'm pretty sure
you're not in that boat. For him, running at 180-age is basically a
form of speed work!

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Jul-06-2006 08:16 PM            

I found out about MAF in April and started running at or below my target HR of 147 (I'm 33, male). Things started out a bit rough with a fair bit of walk breaks to keep low enough. My average pace was in the 13-14 min/mile range.

Fast foward to July 1 where my average pace is now in the 11:30-12:00 min/mile range for a medium-long run, starting at about 130bpm, and gradually climbing over the course of the run. I have bad days and good days still. I've been doing mostly treadmill running given the hot weather and my inability to run in the morning (my heart rate, despite being about 50bpm when I wake up, while running in the morning averages 10-20 bpm higher in thethan it does in the afternoon for the same pace/temp/humidity. I have no idea why and it is very frustrating. That's probably an whole other topic!)

On July 4 I ran my first 5K in 28:45, and it felt great! My heart rate avgs per mile were 165bpm, 175bpm, and 185bpm. A steep hill concludes the course and I ran the last 0.1 in the 190's with an achieved high of 193 or so on the hill. I'll count it as a max heart rate of 195 actual (good to get a real number. I had been guessing prior to now.)

Oddly, my run the next day was even more incredible. I did my med-long run of 5 miles, all at 11:30, and my heart rate never even hit 140. This is highly unusual for me! No drift at all until the last mile, and then only a few bpm. I hadn't read anybody noting any unusual like that after a race or fast run so thought I'd mention it. I find it hard to believe that a 5K race would result in a that kind of change. Has anyone else experienced that? Did I shake something lose during the race? I look forward to my long run of 7 miles on Sunday and see if it's a lingering effect.

Thanks again for the posts and all the info! I've been thrilled with my performance gains and the steady drop in pace AND effort!

IP: Logged

posted Jul-06-2006 09:25 PM               

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Jul-06-2006 11:43 PM               

Sorry to muddy the waters on my previous post, I should have been more clear and stated that my comments were applicable to runners with lower than avg MHR's.

I also had an interesting pacing experience this week. Tuesday morning was cool (@60) and I did 21 miles avg pace 8:35. Wednesday morning, same temps and course, I expected to be slower from Tuesday's effort. Ended up doing 11 miles in 7:55 pace. Tuesday's run had some drift at the end, but even at 11 miles I was not near 8:00 pace.

It was nice running in some cool weather finally...hang in there everybody, those times will come down!

------------------
My Profile

IP: Logged

posted Jul-07-2006 05:24 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:

Sorry to muddy the waters on my previous post, I should have been more clear and stated that my comments were applicable to runners with lower than avg MHR's.

---

You didn't muddy them - I just wanted to put that reminder out there
just so people know where it's coming from because not everyone
gets through the entire morass of posts in this thing or reads the
whole FAQ!

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Jul-07-2006 09:14 AM            

- 5/18, 1:49:23, avg 135, 55 deg/53 dew pt
- 7/7, 1:49:05, avg 138, 61 deg/51 dew pt

Anyway, it felt great to stretch my legs a little this morning.

On the previous poster's comment on the effect of a race on heart rate the next day, I've seen the same thing almost every time. I'm not sure whether it's a good indication of fitness, however. I think it might be a symptom of being tired. Was your perceived effort the same? What I found was that I felt like I had to work harder to get up to the same heart rate.

When I was doing Pfitzinger, I always noticed this the day after a tempo or interval run. The effect of all the hard runs was cumulative I think. I ran a 10K at the height of Pfitzinger marathon program with an average heart rate of 177 (if memory serves). That was as fast as I could go and is my 10K PR (47:21). I don't have any good evidence, but I attribute the low heart rate to being tired. All my other races that I did with only easy training have heart rates that are in line (5 miler 186 bpm, 10 miler 181 bpm, 2 marathons at 172).

Greg

IP: Logged

posted Jul-07-2006 10:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
I will be heading out on vaca and one of the things I like to do is take a good book. Since this is a MAF forum I was wondering what book by Maffertone anyone can recommend. It seems as if this question has been asked before but I am unable to find the question or the response. Any input will be apprecriated.
Thanks, kcy

---

Hi kcy, I think this post was missed. I will answer it for you.

The main book is "Training For Endurance" by Dr. Philip Maffetone. Another good book was written by a runner trained by Dr. Maffetone. The book is called "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman.

Stealth

IP: Logged

posted Jul-07-2006 07:52 PM            

I'm not exactly sure how to judge perceived effort. I felt very good
during the run. Easy breathing and my legs felt strong. Effort felt
easier than some of my runs, but overall I'd say about average -- I
just don't usually feel that average at that speed. I felt I'd have to
push faster to up the heart rate. I was tempted to push it faster, or
longer, but I know that's how injuries happened!

If I understood your post, it's counter intuitive to me that being
tired (after a race or hard templ run) would lower my heart rate and
allow me to run more effeciently. I'd much prefer to think that I'm
improving!

IP: Logged

posted Jul-07-2006 08:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mobius:
I'm not exactly sure how to judge perceived effort. I felt very good
during the run. Easy breathing and my legs felt strong. Effort felt
easier than some of my runs, but overall I'd say about average -- I
just don't usually feel that average at that speed. I felt I'd have to
push faster to up the heart rate. I was tempted to push it faster, or
longer, but I know that's how injuries happened!

If I understood your post, it's counter intuitive to me that being
tired (after a race or hard templ run) would lower my heart rate and
allow me to run more effeciently. I'd much prefer to think that I'm
improving!

---

I don't claim to understand why it happens, but here's a quote from an article on overtraining http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/overtraining.html

quote:

---

It appears that there are two forms of the syndrome. The sympathetic form is more common in sprint type sports and the parasympathetic form is more common in endurance sports. The results from various measurements taken during exercise physiologic testing differ between the two forms, but decreased overall performance and increased perceived fatigue are similar. In the parasympathetic form there may be a lower heart rate for a given workload. Athletes training with a heart rate monitor may notice that they cannot sustain the workout at their usual "set point."

---

Note that although this is an article on overtraining, I'm not suggesting you're overtraining. There's another article I saw somewhere (that I can't come up with now) that says if it's just for a day, you're probably just tired. Pace at heart rate is a good indicator of efficiency, but it's not perfect.

Greg

IP: Logged

posted Jul-09-2006 07:55 PM            

Monday: Beat up from Sunday's sweatfest, so did an easy 3.

Tuesday: Ran w/ my son. We did 8 miles starting at 10 a.m. It was way hot, humid, and the sun beat the heck outta us. On the other hand, I made my son struggle, and he's a sub-10 3200m runner.

Wednesday: 6 around the neighborhood in 50 minutes w/ my wife on a bike.

Thursday: Alternated 5 minutes at 8:30 pace w/ 5 minutes at 7:30 pace for 6 miles. Just coasted along on this workout.

Friday: Used the HRM and cruised 4 in 36 minutes.

Saturday: 5 in 39:06 w/o any problems.

Sunday: 8. Another sweatfest. I was hurting by the end.

The main thing I've seen with the use of the HRM is that I tend to land more on my heel now and somewhat stiff-legged. I need to figure out how to improve my form at slower paces.

One final note: my t-mill runs seemed faster than my outdoor runs. However, outdoors, I'm using my Garmin to measure my courses. There is a lot of weaving on my trails, so my courses may actually be a bit long. I've measured them with a bike that was calibrated and found that my GPS-measured 4.44-mile course was 4.71 using the calibrated bike.

IP: Logged

posted Jul-09-2006 11:52 PM            

I am 30 so my MAF would be 150.

I am training for a marathon in October. What length of time should I devote to base building. Could I begin this process now for 3 months prior to the marathon and see much improvements in my times by staying under 150? I am not planning on racing before the marathon.

Thanks for all the great info!

IP: Logged

posted Jul-10-2006 07:22 AM               

MAF training will definitely improve your running, and will dramatically improve your chances of getting to the Chicago starting line healthy.

QUOTE]Originally posted by ekugrad:
OK, I have been checking out all these posts and I am interested in the time gains peopel are seeing. I currently run about 10:15 -10:30 mile 10K pace. My average HR is around 164-5 ( in the heat and 155-158 when there is low humidity) I am in Indiana so I have crazy weather.

I am 30 so my MAF would be 150.

I am training for a marathon in October. What length of time should I devote to base building. Could I begin this process now for 3 months prior to the marathon and see much improvements in my times by staying under 150? I am not planning on racing before the marathon.

Thanks for all the great info![/QUOTE]

------------------
My Profile

IP: Logged

posted Jul-10-2006 08:37 AM            

Weather
5/13 - 56F temp/53F dew pt.
6/03 - 66F temp/60F dew pt.
6/24 - 70F temp/67F dew pt.
7/10 - 67F temp/58F dew pt.

Warmup (a little over two miles)
5/13 - 21:04/131
6/03 - 22:49/131
6/24 - 22:13/133
7/10 - 22:28/130

______5/13__6/3__6/24__7/10
Mile 1 09:18 09:59 09:53 09:30
Mile 2 09:32 10:02 10:01 09:32
Mile 3 09:35 09:57 09:54 09:34
Mile 4 09:45 09:59 10:09 09:38
Mile 5 09:52 10:05 10:19 09:45

As you can see, the weather on 6/3 and 7/10 was essentially identical and I was 20-30 seconds faster on each split. It will be interesting to see how Saturday goes. Pacing will be a bit of an experiment.

Greg

IP: Logged

posted Jul-10-2006 08:42 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Jul-11-2006 05:20 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by expectingrain:
I noticed tonight that when I take a drink of water while running, my HR goes up a few beats a minute. Anyone else notice anything like this? I thought it was strange, but it happened a couple times, too many to be a coincidence.

---

I've noticed the same thing. Drinking water will push me over the alarm if I'm close. I think it might be because of the interruption in breathing. I've played around and it seems to happen less if I wait to swallow in between breaths. (There's a lot of time to think about such things slogging around...)

IP: Logged