posted Jul-02-2006 05:25 PM            

I'm looking for some advice on whether and how to increase my training. I've run 55, 54, 55 miles in the last three weeks taking 10h10m, 10h2m, and 10h39m. The weeks look something like 5, 10, 8, 10, 5, 16 and a rest day in there where real life forces it. Because I'm so slow now, I'm "running" over 10 hours a week (my peak Pfitz week was 57 miles in 9h7m back in February). Any advice on whether to hold here and hope my pace improves or add more volume?

If I should add, then where? Long run or mid-week? With the heat, it took me 3:19 to do 16 miles today and the last 2 miles I couldn't even walk up a reasonable hill without going over 140 and my best wog/shuffle put me over 145. As a result, I'm not sure I should add to my long run now (although I'll eventually have to before the marine corps marathon). Cross-training? Turn one of those 5's into a 10, or just add a few miles of wogging onto the long run? Maybe 10/16 on the weekends (I am running the Disney Goofy challenge in January)?

I'd like to recover my pace soon and I'm afraid it's not going to happen until either the weather gets better or I train harder. My average pace this week was 11:36 min/mi. The old ladies are gaining! I think I need a shirt that says something like "I'm really not this slow" (and maybe lists some race times).

Thanks,
Greg

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posted Jul-02-2006 05:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregw:
Maffers,

The old ladies are gaining! I think I need a shirt that says something like "I'm really not this slow" (and maybe lists some race times).

Thanks,
Greg

---

I hear ya! I got kicked off my local track because they thought I was going the wrong direction. I tried explaining my MAF training, but they didn't understand.

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posted Jul-02-2006 06:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregw:
Maffers,

I'm looking for some advice on whether and how to increase my training. I've run 55, 54, 55 miles in the last three weeks taking 10h10m, 10h2m, and 10h39m. The weeks look something like 5, 10, 8, 10, 5, 16 and a rest day in there where real life forces it. Because I'm so slow now, I'm "running" over 10 hours a week (my peak Pfitz week was 57 miles in 9h7m back in February). Any advice on whether to hold here and hope my pace improves or add more volume?

If I should add, then where? Long run or mid-week? With the heat, it took me 3:19 to do 16 miles today and the last 2 miles I couldn't even walk up a reasonable hill without going over 140 and my best wog/shuffle put me over 145. As a result, I'm not sure I should add to my long run now (although I'll eventually have to before the marine corps marathon). Cross-training? Turn one of those 5's into a 10, or just add a few miles of wogging onto the long run? Maybe 10/16 on the weekends (I am running the Disney Goofy challenge in January)?

I'd like to recover my pace soon and I'm afraid it's not going to happen until either the weather gets better or I train harder. My average pace this week was 11:36 min/mi. The old ladies are gaining! I think I need a shirt that says something like "I'm really not this slow" (and maybe lists some race times).

Thanks,
Greg

---

I'm sure someone smarter than I will jump in, but I think that you should wait at least six weeks to see increased pace at the same heart rate. I'm talking a little over my head here, but restricting yourself to a lower HR you're forcing your body to build capillaries and enzymes and mitochondria and stuff and I read that that process takes about 6 weeks. Of course, the heat will also slow you down.

Disclosure: While I'm a believer in low heart-rate training, I don't buy into MAF because it doesn't take into account YOUR max HR. The author of this thread has a link to articles by Charles Hadd (although the links were dead recently) that seems to be working for me. Hadd's program demands training in the 70-80% range of max HR. He also recommends testing yourself every 6 weeks to gauge your progress.

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posted Jul-02-2006 06:42 PM               

Yesterday, it was 85 deg, dewpoint 61, and I ran a hilly outdoor
course, 21.2 miles/3 hrs 30 min/avg HR 137, max 148:
times for each 1.92 mile loop:
17:35/132, 18:07/138, 18:43/137, 19:08/137, 18:42/135,
19:09/136, 19:07/136, 19:45/136, 19:40/137, 20:19/139,
19:47/142

Today, it was 95 deg, dewpoint 62, 20.4 miles/3 hrs 50 min/avg HR 145,
max 162. The temps, I'm sure were over 100 on the black asphalt
on the wide open country roads. I finished my 70 oz camelbak at
about mile 14 and at that point could not control my HR anymore,
so I started walking all of the hills. After I returned home, I drank
24 oz of chocolate milk, then weighed myself. I was still 12 lbs
lighter than when I left. Here were my mile splits:

9:34/130, 9:37/138, 9:23/136, 10:43/142, 9:31/140,
10:46/147, 10:30/143, 10:46/145, 11:20/146, 10:49/143,
10:55/141, 12:28/149, 11:46/148, 10:45/146, 12:22/147,
9:59/150, 13:58/149, 11:47/152, 15:31/146, 14:06/147,
4:06/148

This was the slowest average pace I've had on a run in
over a year, much slower than in my last 50 mile race, and
about 4 min/mile slower than I ran in Grandma's marathon
in 80 deg temps about 2 weeks ago.

As a side note, the MCM is one of those races when you don't
really know whether it will be hot or cool. Sometimes it will
peak out at 80 or so. Others it will be 50 and raining. In either
case, if you plan to acclimatize for the MCM, it should be
sufficient to restrict your training to 80 deg or less.

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posted Jul-02-2006 06:56 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:

Disclosure: While I'm a believer in low heart-rate training, I don't buy into MAF because it doesn't take into account YOUR max HR. The author of this thread has a link to articles by Charles Hadd (although the links were dead recently) that seems to be working for me. Hadd's program demands training in the 70-80% range of max HR. He also recommends testing yourself every 6 weeks to gauge your progress.

---

That's unfortunate that the Hadd link is dead. In fact, if you read
everything carefully the HR suggested by Maffetone or Mark
Allen will be very close to that suggested by Hadd, unless you
have a VERY LOW max heart rate. Very low, in this case, means
at least several beats below the 220-age prediction. In fact, I
would point everyone to the Hadd article, but it's just so much stuff
to go through (for most people) and many are confused by it, so
it's easier to have people use the Maffetone formula with the
warning that for some people it will give a HR zone that's too high.
Everyone wants to think, "Well I, personally, have a very high
heart rate, so these things don't work for me," when in fact, that's
what *everyone* says when they start this (there are not enough
keys on a piano to count the times I said something like this).
The fact of the matter is that the slower the pace and the slower
the progress for an individual, the more he/she needs it! It's
kind of a double whammy. But, now when he comes into the
equation, we see more and more posts just like Greg's. And it's
not just in this thread. You also see tons of posts in unrelated
threads to the effect, "why can't I finish my long runs?" "should
I really adjust my pace if it's warmer?" "why I am I beat all the
time from running?"

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posted Jul-02-2006 10:56 PM               

i'm not planning on racing, i just want to run for the miles and the fitness (and the calories, hoping to lose 20 lbs total and already down 7 lbs). and this is working,-)
susan

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posted Jul-03-2006 12:07 AM            

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posted Jul-03-2006 07:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
You can switch
back to high heart rate training and what you'll likely see is that
you simply won't be finishing your long runs and even some of
your others and your average pace in the same temperatures
won't even be that much better. Your problem actually has nothing
to do with MAF training or heart rate - it's just heat.

---

First thanks for taking the time for the long response. I'm not really thinking about switch to high heartrate training. I was honestly just asking where, if anywhere, I should add miles.

I don't understand the statement, however, that if I did run at higher heart rates that I "simply won't be finishing" my long runs. What does "simply won't be finishing" my long runs. Would I be calling a cab?

As far as avoiding the heat, I'm doing my best now without resorting to a treadmill. I do all my runs in the early morning, but it's still muggy out these days (6am today and the dew point was 64. I guess I could have got out earlier but it was 62 at 3:30am!) I'm not sure how to acclimatize any better than running 10+ hours a week in the same conditions. I'll try and get on a treadmill sometime for (hopefully) an ego boost.

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posted Jul-03-2006 09:46 AM            

Last week was tough both physically and mentally. Lots of short nights and long days. The mental/emotional part had to do with several layoffs at my company.

After all that during the week, I tried a MAF test on Saturday. I was actually about 1:20 slower this time over 5 miles. I noticed a couple of factors; I was physically active before the test (spousal aerobics, if you will), and I noticed that I was really tired after the test. That's unusual for me.

Yesterday's 9-miler turned into a sweatfest with a temp of 73 and humidity of 71%. After crusing thorugh the first half in 9-minute pace, I ran 9:34 pace on the second half. I noticed that my legs were really beat up afterwards, and I was again really tired. One telling point is that my HR is usually back under 100 bpm within 2 minutes. My HR took well over 8 minutes to get back to 100 bpm.

I jogged an easy 3 miles today and will try again tomorrow. I feel tired, but I struggle to fall asleep. I think outside stresses have worn me down because I'm only running 40 mpw.

On the brightside, we had an early morning low of 64 last Tuesday. I was able to run my 6-mile course at 8:20 pace, or about 1:30 faster than my previous best.

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posted Jul-03-2006 04:49 PM            

Texasdude - don't forget the HRM during "spousal aerobics" If you're going to be dedicated to a plan, do it 100% or don't do it at all

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posted Jul-03-2006 05:12 PM               

10:34/124, 10:19/127, 9:52/131, 8:30/143,8:22/145, 8:22/147, 8:29/147, 8:10/149, 8:11/153, 8:29/153, 9:41/144, 10:05/139

In the heat I am very pleased with this as I have struggled with a few runs over the last month in the tough conditions. I'm running San Francisco in about 3-4 weeks and it's supposed to be cool so if it is I feel great about my chances. One other thing, I saw a young guy in great shape go by me running the opposite direction pass me 3 times on a 6 mile loop course probably doing a 6 minute pace without any fuel belt/hydration and here I am with my 4 bottle belt on running much slower. I couldn't believe it! Oh well, no matter how much you improve you always see someone who looks super-human I guess!

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posted Jul-03-2006 05:40 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregw:

I don't understand the statement, however, that if I did run at higher heart rates that I "simply won't be finishing" my long runs. What does "simply won't be finishing" my long runs. Would I be calling a cab?

As far as avoiding the heat, I'm doing my best now without resorting to a treadmill. I do all my runs in the early morning, but it's still muggy out these days (6am today and the dew point was 64. I guess I could have got out earlier but it was 62 at 3:30am!) I'm not sure how to acclimatize any better than running 10+ hours a week in the same conditions. I'll try and get on a treadmill sometime for (hopefully) an ego boost.

---

Haha! Probably not calling a cab, but possibly walking a lot towards
the end. (so by "not finishing," I'm implying, "not running the entire time").
I used to have that happen all the time. No doubt, you're on a path towards acclimation - keep in mind that it may take a while, especially
if you have little or no history of running in the heat.

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posted Jul-03-2006 05:46 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by expectingrain:
Would a slightly modified version of this plan:
http://www.halhigdon.com/halfmarathon/inter.htm
work well with the MAF concept?
I would replace the tempo/invervals prescribed on Wed. with the same as the Tuesday run and eliminate the strength training.
I'm not really even training for a HM, just looking for a schedule to keep me progressing. My target is overall aerobic base building and getting my MAF pace to around 9:30-10min/mile. Currently it is around 13min/mile. Also how important is the "no carbs 3 hours before" part of the plan? If this plan doesn't go along with the concept, does anyone have a recommendation for one that does? Thanks in advance.

Texasdude - don't forget the HRM during "spousal aerobics" If you're going to be dedicated to a plan, do it 100% or don't do it at all

---

I would say any plan where you replace the speed work with a MAF
run would work just fine, so you're ok there. What would no carbs
prior to the run have to do with following the HH schedule that you
mention?

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posted Jul-03-2006 06:15 PM            

quote:

---

What would no carbs
prior to the run have to do with following the HH schedule that you
mention?

---

The "no carbs" question was referring to the MAF (FAQ Question#23)
not the HH program. I was just wondering how imperative to the MAF program the no carbs part is.

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posted Jul-03-2006 06:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by expectingrain:
The "no carbs" question was referring to the MAF (FAQ Question#23)
not the HH program. I was just wondering how imperative to the MAF program the no carbs part is.

---

Ahh, well who knows? It's all a personal experiment. I've used
MAF training to eliminate my requirements for carbs during pretty
much any activity, even marathons at high heart rates. I believe
one of the key things about MAF training has to do with training
yourself to get faster using mostly fat for fuel and the word from
the "experts" (and that's not just Maffetone, Pfitzinger also says
so) is that if you take in carbs before an activity, you will be
encouraging the use of carbs. Will that contradict the MAF
training effect? I'm just not sure and it may depend on the
particular person. Now, that's not to say that you can't take
in carbs during your runs (although, I've worked my way out
of that as well). They all say that once you've been exercising
for a short time, intake of carbs in and of itself no longer encourages you
to use them for fuel.

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posted Jul-04-2006 10:26 AM            

So, obviously this proves I have the cardio fitness of a brick wall. I will stick with it, but man, is it ever mentally challenging and demanding of my patience!!

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[This message has been edited by kommish77 (edited Jul-04-2006).]

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posted Jul-04-2006 01:30 PM               

If you plan on doing periodic treadmill tests to evaluate fitness would you mind sending me the data? I'm currently collecting data in an attempt to evaluate how much progress the "average" person should expect to see at different points of their MAF training.

If you're willing to contribute please send to the email address in my profile. Send the TM test data (mile times, HR) as well as total mileage run between the current and previous tests. If you have data from previous tests I'd like to log that as well. Thanks!

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posted Jul-04-2006 02:25 PM            

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posted Jul-04-2006 03:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by expectingrain:
The "no carbs" question was referring to the MAF (FAQ Question#23)
not the HH program. I was just wondering how imperative to the MAF program the no carbs part is.

---

Based on what I've read, you should avoid carbs 2 hours before you run because it helps your body learn to burn fat and vice versa. Interestingly, and contrary to what I'd thought, once you've started running you should be able to eat and drink carbs for endurance without compromising your training. See http://www.marathonguide.com/training/articles/MandBFuelOnFat.cfm

"It is best to start an exercise session with stable, fasting blood glucose levels and higher blood fat levels. Glucose is a powerful regulator of fat metabolism. The higher the glucose content of the blood, the lower the fat metabolism. High blood glucose levels are generated from dietary carbohydrates.

"This effect is associated with insulin. High blood glucose stimulates the hormone insulin to be released from the pancreas. Insulin is a storage and growth hormone. Its main job is to reduce blood glucose but it also acts to store fat and protein. In the process, insulin directly blocks removal of fat from fat deposits. These deposits are an important source of fat for exercising muscle. Insulin also reduces fat burning within the muscle. Therefore, increased insulin is considered to be antagonistic to fat combustion during exercise.

"In an interesting piece of research, investigators at the University of Limburg in the Netherlands and at the University of Texas collaborated to determine whether high blood glucose and high insulin levels reduce the amount of fat burned during moderate-level exercise. A group of endurance-trained men cycled for 40 minutes at an aerobic 50 percent of maximum after an overnight fast. On another day, they ingested a drink containing 100 grams of glucose at 60 minutes before and then again at 10 minutes prior to the exercise test. This is a carbohydrate equivalent of drinking one and one-half liters of Gatorade an hour before a race and again 10 minutes before the start. While this may not mimic real-life situations, what the researchers found was telling. Fat metabolism was substantially reduced for the full 40 minutes of the exercise after the carbohydrate load.

"While most people would not eat that much carbohydrate before a run, it is common for people to eat a sports bar, bagel, or banana in the hour prior to training. Try to avoid eating for at least two hours before a run.

"It takes as little as 20 grams of ingested carbohydrate to raise insulin and reduce fat as fuel. If you have nutrition awareness or read the nutrition labels on foods, you will know that a couple of slices of bread, a banana, a sports bar, or a soda each delivers more than 20 grams of carbohydrate.

"Fasting increases blood fat levels. Running after your overnight fast will increase fat burning. A cup of coffee beforehand may boost it even higher. Once exercise has started, eating carbohydrates does not generate a substantive insulin response. If you are starting a long run lasting two hours or more on an empty stomach, you may want to eat a sports gel or bar after 20 to 30 minutes throughout the run. Otherwise you will be faced with the nausea and fatigue of low blood sugar and have a poor training session. If you tend toward hypoglycemia when you get up in the morning, you may want to eat something in the minutes immediately before you head out the door. It takes 30 minutes for insulin levels to peak.

"However, before a long race or run you will have more endurance and perform better if you eat a meal containing carbohydrate two to three hours before. Early in the morning, your liver glycogen stores, which supply blood glucose, have been depleted by the overnight fast. The brain and nervous system rely on blood glucose for energy. If you start a marathon without replenishing these stores, you will bonk. The two-hour time interval is sufficient to reduce blood glucose levels back to normal and restore fat metabolism."

[This message has been edited by martinjames (edited Jul-04-2006).]

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posted Jul-04-2006 04:28 PM               

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posted Jul-04-2006 04:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by expectingrain:
Does anyone have a link to the first thread on this topic?

---

You probably won't find a link, but I have a transcript of all 1123
pages of it in a 4 Mb Word file. It's kind of hard to sift through, but
if you're good at data-mining, just send me an email and I'll ship it
to you ...

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posted Jul-04-2006 09:39 PM               

I'm running the Houston Marathon on Jan. 14th (my 1st marathon). I'm 38 years old and have been running off and on for about 3 years, never really following any kind of a training program, and run in a few local 5K and 10K races. I started MAF training about 5 weeks ago because I've never really built up a base of any kind and wanted to do that before I started training for the marathon. I had planned on doing MAF, then doing the Hidgon Intermediate marathon program.

I've already noticed some good results during this MAF phase. My weekly total has gone from about 30 to 37 miles and my long run from 10 to 13 miles. I'm already seeing a slight increase in pace while staying at 142 HR, and that's even on the hot and humid days here in Southwest Lousisana.

I'm now wondering if I should continue running at MAF all the way into January. And if I do, should I slowly increase my long runs until then and top out at 20 or 22 miles before the taper, or could I start hitting some 20 milers sooner?
Or should I just stick with my original plan and start the Hidgon training at the end of September.

Either way, I think I'm going to be all right for the marathon. I'm not really looking for a target time, although 4 hours would be great, I just want to cross the finish line in good shape.

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posted Jul-05-2006 09:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by KyleMcM:
I have a question concering MAF training in building up for a marathon.

I'm running the Houston Marathon on Jan. 14th (my 1st marathon). I'm 38 years old and have been running off and on for about 3 years, never really following any kind of a training program, and run in a few local 5K and 10K races. I started MAF training about 5 weeks ago because I've never really built up a base of any kind and wanted to do that before I started training for the marathon. I had planned on doing MAF, then doing the Hidgon Intermediate marathon program.

I've already noticed some good results during this MAF phase. My weekly total has gone from about 30 to 37 miles and my long run from 10 to 13 miles. I'm already seeing a slight increase in pace while staying at 142 HR, and that's even on the hot and humid days here in Southwest Lousisana.

I'm now wondering if I should continue running at MAF all the way into January. And if I do, should I slowly increase my long runs until then and top out at 20 or 22 miles before the taper, or could I start hitting some 20 milers sooner?
Or should I just stick with my original plan and start the Hidgon training at the end of September.

Either way, I think I'm going to be all right for the marathon. I'm not really looking for a target time, although 4 hours would be great, I just want to cross the finish line in good shape.

---

Kyle,
I have been running at MAF since January of this year. The plan was to MAF and then use Daniel's plan for Chicago in October. My original plan was to start Daniels at the end of June. I have experienced GREAT results with MAF. I decided to stick with MAF while mixing in some strides and entering a few races between now and Chicago. This is my plan. Remember everyone is an experiment of one. Hopefully this response helps you in making a decision. Check out my running page and you can view my MAF resluts.
kcy

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posted Jul-05-2006 12:17 PM               

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posted Jul-05-2006 01:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by corland14:
I completely agree with kcy. My MAFF pace on training runs of 10 miles is fast approaching what I initially thought would be a very good 1st marathon pace. My MAFF pace is currently 9:00/mile outside and less than 7:15/mile on an inclined treadmill. My initial marathon goal pace was 8:30. I'm thinking that I may shoot for 8/mile by late October.
cory

---

Cory,
My goal is an 8mm at Chicago in October. I am only at a 09:30 mm on a TM for a 10 mile run. You should be able to do a sub 03:30 if everythng else is equal. Remember to shoot for the moon becuase if you miss then at least you land on a star!
kcy

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