posted Jun-25-2006 06:56 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by kommish77:
I am training for a 10 mile race at the end of August. I have run this race 3 years straight and run slower each time (between 90 and 92 minutes). Going into this year I thought I would build up my mileage and run the exact course 4 or 5 times before the actual race and get a long run of maybe 13 or so. Then I discovered MAF. Now with my pace so much slower than I am used to running I am not sure I will be running the course at all because it would take me 2.5 hours to do it and I know for sure I will not run 13 miles at MAF speed.

Tonight I ran for 1hr and 40 minutes on the treadmill at MAF HR, which was a little over 6 miles. My question is, if I can word it so you'll understand:

Will training at MAF HR and getting longer runs (time, not miles) prepare me for my race? I will be on my feet longer running at MAF, but the miles will be lower.

Thanks!

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Then answer is ... nobody knows. This type of training is a
"strategic" venture, not a tactical one. If you're expecting results
and significant improvements in a race a few months away, there's
a good chance you won't get them. It has happened, but really this
is not a way for short term improvements - you have to commit to the
long haul, which may be 3, 6, 9, or even 12 months for the "ultimate"
improvement. You really never know. I saw tremendous gains after
8 weeks in shorter distance races, but it was a good 5 months of
training until I turned my long distance race performance completely
around.

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posted Jun-25-2006 09:40 PM            

Increasing mileage at an easy pace (70 to 80% MHR will definitely improve race times without any speed work or sharpening. Now it's time to focus on losing weight to add a second dimension to speed.

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posted Jun-25-2006 11:13 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kommish77:
I am training for a 10 mile race at the end of August. I have run this race 3 years straight and run slower each time (between 90 and 92 minutes). Going into this year I thought I would build up my mileage and run the exact course 4 or 5 times before the actual race and get a long run of maybe 13 or so. Then I discovered MAF. Now with my pace so much slower than I am used to running I am not sure I will be running the course at all because it would take me 2.5 hours to do it and I know for sure I will not run 13 miles at MAF speed.

Tonight I ran for 1hr and 40 minutes on the treadmill at MAF HR, which was a little over 6 miles. My question is, if I can word it so you'll understand:

Will training at MAF HR and getting longer runs (time, not miles) prepare me for my race? I will be on my feet longer running at MAF, but the miles will be lower.

Thanks!

---

An indicator that your race times will get better is when your training paces start to drop at the same HR. Since there are many variables come race day, you might or might not see improvement. But OVER TIME, you will, if you are building your miles (slowly) and keeping in your zones, and seeing improvement in your training paces. If you are getting better at MAF and below, you are building your aerobic system--that can only mean good things for your race times, health, and relationships with people, animals, and certain insects. Patience is key. Once you've gone through it, and put it in the hard work, you're there. And even there isn't there, there is always more there to get to, and that's the beauty with the aerobic system. It's a potential monster oozing with infinity.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

Current Training
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posted Jun-25-2006 11:42 PM            

Once you've gone through it, and put it in the hard work, you're there. And even there isn't there, there is always more there to get to, and that's the beauty with the aerobic system. It's a potential monster oozing with infinity.

I think that fredurie is "there"

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posted Jun-26-2006 07:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by StealthRunner:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

Once you've gone through it, and put it in the hard work, you're there. And even there isn't there, there is always more there to get to, and that's the beauty with the aerobic system. It's a potential monster oozing with infinity.

I think that fredurie is "there"

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Noakes has a chart in "Lore of Running" where he estimates the average improvement to be 3% of your race time by doubling your volume. Actually, it's by doubling your effort, which also includes intensity, but if you run at low intensity all the time it essentially becomes doubling of volume.

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posted Jun-26-2006 07:28 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by tigger:
Noakes has a chart in "Lore of Running" where he estimates the average improvement to be 3% of your race time by doubling your volume. Actually, it's by doubling your effort, which also includes intensity, but if you run at low intensity all the time it essentially becomes doubling of volume.

---

But isn't the improvement curve steeper for beginners and/or runners with terrible aerobic systems (like most of us)? 3% seems pretty low. I wouldn't do it for a stinkin' 3%. Hadd documents a runner whose improvement was much better (the weblink is dead for some reason). I trained for my first marathon using Higdon's novice plan (and skipped two weeks at that). In the past month, I've been sticking with the low HR deal to get my avg week from from 25-45, soon to be @50. I'm bettin' on a lot more than 3%.

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posted Jun-26-2006 10:12 AM            

For me, I'm seeing improvement in my daily paces despite heat/humidity. Last night, I ran an out-and-back 6-miler on our trails. It was 92 degrees although the humidity had dropped. Previous runs on this course yielded times around 1-hour (or 10-minute pace).

Staying under MAF, I had splits of 8:38, 8:36 and 8:44 on the way out. I knew that I would slow going back against the wind, but my times were 9:15, 9:17, and 9:13. It was a very consistent run. Usually by the end of this particular course, I'm running 10:45 miles and my starting pace is around 9:20, so I was pleased. My daily runs are now coming in around 8:40 pace, or about a minute/mile faster.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning when it's only supposed to be 64 degrees. :-)

I need to do a time-trial of some sort to see where I'm at.

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posted Jun-26-2006 10:15 AM            

Monday
AM 14 @ around 8:35, 66F and 83% humidity, HR 88.

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posted Jun-26-2006 02:57 PM            

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posted Jun-26-2006 08:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasdude:
The heat/humidity factors will definitely mess with someone's pace as was proven by the MAF tests that one guy has done.

For me, I'm seeing improvement in my daily paces despite heat/humidity. Last night, I ran an out-and-back 6-miler on our trails. It was 92 degrees although the humidity had dropped. Previous runs on this course yielded times around 1-hour (or 10-minute pace).

Staying under MAF, I had splits of 8:38, 8:36 and 8:44 on the way out. I knew that I would slow going back against the wind, but my times were 9:15, 9:17, and 9:13. It was a very consistent run. Usually by the end of this particular course, I'm running 10:45 miles and my starting pace is around 9:20, so I was pleased. My daily runs are now coming in around 8:40 pace, or about a minute/mile faster.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning when it's only supposed to be 64 degrees. :-)

I need to do a time-trial of some sort to see where I'm at.

---

I think after about 4 weeks or so of almost daily runs, even of
moderate intensity and volume, you're likely to become well
acclimated to the heat, recovering much of your cool weather
performance.

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posted Jun-26-2006 08:49 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by fredurie:
Low heart rate training:

Monday
AM 14 @ around 8:35, 66F and 83% humidity, HR 88.

---

What percentage of your weekly volume would you say
that you run above a heart rate of (185 - age)?

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posted Jun-26-2006 08:54 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by RUNSUB3:
Hey Jesse, I just want to thank you for answering my question about what HR I should be running at due to my young age. I took your advice and didn't run over 150 bmp, and it's been working wonders. Today, I did a 4.5 mile run avg HR was 143 and avg pace was 13:51.
That is fast compared to what I was running a month ago at MAF 160 14:20 pace, I feel like I'm actually making progress. However, I must bother you and others with another question once again. I was just wondering about push ups, crunches, and pull ups. I know, they are basically anaerobic, but could they delay my aerobic base building stage, or worse reverse it? I don't lift weights other than my own body weight if that helps any. Thank you once again.

---

I think as long as the time you spend doing your lifting and so forth
is much, much less than your running volume below MAF, the effect
shouldn't be significant. However, you should always track the
"little rules" that you break, just in case you need to troubleshoot
at some point. I've generally been doing between 0.5 and 1.5 hours
of upper body weightlifting per week over the past couple of years.

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posted Jun-27-2006 07:25 PM            

- I use a Garmin 301, how do you do this method without staring at your watch?
- If you crosstrain at the gym, do you trust the HRM on the treadmill or trainer, or do you wear your HRM to the gym as well?
- I felt like people were looking at me because I was running slow. Is this natural?
- How long before the times start to go down?
-I think this is a really neat concept and I'd like to dedicate some time to it. I just want to do it correctly. Thanks in advance.

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posted Jun-27-2006 11:58 PM            

Incidentally, on a related note, I don't see anyone on this thread following the HADD approach, which surprises me. Are there any success stories out there? I think it's great.

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posted Jun-28-2006 12:02 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by expectingrain:
I've been interested in this idea for training from reading this thread, and today I tried it out. Hopefully someone here can help with some noob questions:
I'm 30, so I'm presuming my MAF # is 150bpm. I ran for the first time with a HRM - 2 miles @ avg HR of 157. 1st mile was 11:42, 2nd mile was 12:22. I was running just about as slow as I could. In the beginning is it OK to walk/run? Also, my calves were feeling it when I was trying to run slow. Is this normal?

- I use a Garmin 301, how do you do this method without staring at your watch?
- If you crosstrain at the gym, do you trust the HRM on the treadmill or trainer, or do you wear your HRM to the gym as well?
- I felt like people were looking at me because I was running slow. Is this natural?
- How long before the times start to go down?
-I think this is a really neat concept and I'd like to dedicate some time to it. I just want to do it correctly. Thanks in advance.

---

You can actually run slower than 12:00 no problem. It's temporary--if you stick with it. Look at my Current Training link.

Do whatever it takes to stay below your MAF. An electroshock conditioning zapper (from Radio Shack) works wonders.

No need to stare. Just glance down very now and then.

I wear my HRM on the treadmill.

Your times will start to go down as your aerobic system begins to build.
This is different for everyone. You might even have to tweak things a bit.
I saw significant progress every 5-6 weeks or so miles during my Maffetone base phase. After a small tweak, it wen even faster. Building miles is key. Build slowly 5% per week on average, if you're a beginner.
You can go faster if you have already built up before.

It's a very easy method. Just stay at 150 (your MAF) or below. It's okay to average a 150 by the end of your run. Try to stay below until the very end. Be patient. It makes you feel like a slowpoke at first, but it really brings out a runner in you with a big aerobic engine that will push through your limitations, and into some very interesting places.

A good idea that works for me is to get to about MAF-15 beats by the end of the 2-3rd mile depending on the distance, then hold that pace.

I've really stretched my limits this year using MAF for a good 16 weeks. Then adding a 70% HRR zone--about maf+10 (my tweak) for "hard" days.
Keeping 50% of the run under MAF.

Good luck!
It works.

--Jimmy

Current Training
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posted Jun-28-2006 12:21 AM               

This thread gives several suggestions for accurate testing of max HR, but you basically want to warm-up for at least 4-5 miles and then run a series of 100% effort intervals, preferably hills, to get as close as possible to your actual max.

If your max HR is 190, which is what the formula prescribes, running at a MAF HR of 150 has you at 79%. In my opinion (again, only opinion) this is too high. Your first HR test indicates that your aerobic system is weak. I'm not the most experienced MAF'er on the board but if I were you I'd do the max HR test and start at 65-70% of that number. The more it sucks and the slower you have to go, the more you need this type of training. Stick with it and you'll be very happy you did.

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posted Jun-28-2006 12:59 AM            

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posted Jun-28-2006 11:12 AM               

If you read about five pages back, I said the same thing about pace. Just a couple pages ago, I posted that I definitely had learned to run slower than 12 min/mi.

As for your heartrate, the 180-age formula also has additions/subtractions depending on your fitness level. I would suggest that if you aren't very aerobically fit, you might want to SUBTRACT 5 more and run at 145. I'm 36 and running at 139 (180-36-5) which is even more painfully slow

I felt like people were staring at me, too. Learn to laugh about it. I even told most of my neighbors what I was doing, so they love to jeer at me as I crawl past.

For progress: I've been running this way for three weeks (preceeded by two weeks of running as hard as I used to train). I've gone from over 14 min/mi on a typical 75° day to 12:15 min/mi even though I'm running farther than I did then. You have no idea how fast 12 min/mi can feel until you've crawled along at 14

Stick with it and good luck.

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posted Jun-28-2006 01:11 PM            

Treadmill MAF tests @ 1% incline:
10 March (starting baseline) 13:30 pace
10 May 11:32
28 June 10:35

And no injuries!
A drawback is that I seem to have lost my sense of pacing at tempo pace. Peachtree next week should be interesting, I have no idea how fast to go out, since all my training has been at LHR pace (trail runs are no help at all in judging pace for road races). I'm going to start mixing in some tempo work now, no more than 10% of my mileage, to prepare for a Labor Day marathon and MCM.

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posted Jun-28-2006 09:09 PM            

dumb question

its not possible to "shock" yourself with the HRM is it? This thought popped into my head tonight while I was running. Its probably not possible, but you never know.

/dumb question

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posted Jun-28-2006 09:19 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by expectingrain:
VikeKingDan
I went back and found your post and our experiences were very similar. I think its a pretty neat approach, it almost turns running into a science experiment. My goal is to eventually be able to run a 9:45-10 min/mile pace @ a 150 HR. Looking at some of your results, it seems very possible.

dumb question

its not possible to "shock" yourself with the HRM is it? This thought popped into my head tonight while I was running. Its probably not possible, but you never know.

/dumb question

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Do you mean shock yourself as feedback for running too high or shock yourself accidently from electricity and water/sweat? No in both cases as far as I know. The voltage and, more importantly, amperage of the monitors are very low.

And I think you and I can get below that 10 min/mi at MAF pace fairly quickly (I'm totally guessing 90-120 days). We'll see

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posted Jul-01-2006 04:50 PM               

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posted Jul-01-2006 05:10 PM            

You will be quite pleased once the temperatures come back down in the fall.

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posted Jul-02-2006 10:41 AM            

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posted Jul-02-2006 12:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by expectingrain:
OT question: Jesse, you work for NASA, right? Has the recent launch been keeping you busy? Good luck!

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Yeah, but I work on unmanned missions and just provide independent
reviews or auxiliary technologies related to Shuttle and Station, when
required. Nonetheless, good luck is in order. Thanks.

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