posted Jun-20-2006 09:29 PM            

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posted Jun-20-2006 10:06 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by flynnmcmahon:
leitnerj, thank you. I read that and I guess my response is that a recent 5k was done at 27:40, my marathon was 5:10.
I do seem highly carb dependent for my runs. If I don't eat "enough" food, even in a short run, I get very hungry and light headed.

---

My feeling is then that you really could use some aerobic development
until you can get your marathon time to about 4:30 or so, as even if
you build more speed, it's not going to really help you. Sounds backwards
as always, but that's what it looks like to me. If you're getting very
hungry and lightheaded, it sounds less like a high dependence on
carbs, and more like another diet/nutritional issue. What if you eat
beef jerky? Does that satisfy your hunger?

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posted Jun-20-2006 10:21 PM            

Well, I typically run/workout in the morning and if I have say and egg or eggbeaters and try to workout, its usually pretty horrible. This morning I had a banana and lifted weights for 30 mins and I was shaking. It "appears" as though unless I eat a solid breakfast and try to run, I'm pretty useless.

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posted Jun-20-2006 11:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by flynnmcmahon:

Well, I typically run/workout in the morning and if I have say and egg or eggbeaters and try to workout, its usually pretty horrible. This morning I had a banana and lifted weights for 30 mins and I was shaking. It "appears" as though unless I eat a solid breakfast and try to run, I'm pretty useless.[/B]

---

OK Jesse, I'm going to try this one.

flynnmcmahon- How did you feel after eating the egg/eggbeaters? Were you low on energy and "shaking"? Bananas are a high carbohydrate food. Do you usually feel tired after eating carbohydrates?

Carbohydrate intolerance= physical fatigue, mental fatigue, feeling jittery and moody, intestinal bloating, sleepiness, depression. If you are having these symptoms after eating a carbohydrate, you may have an intolerance to them. Why don't you try starting a food diary and log how you feel after each meal. It may help you find some clues.

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posted Jun-21-2006 12:48 AM            

So today I went to the track to see how slow outside running is with MAF (140) compared to the treadmill (16:24/mile). Unfortunately the track was occupied with some kind of kids meet so I just had to run/walk for an hour at MAF pace. I didn't have my GPS to know how far I ran so I don't know what pace I was running. But after my slow run/walk I decided to crank it up and see what kind of MAX HR I could get. I am sooooo glad I did because I now have a "new" MAX HR of 187. I am glad that I can start running a little faster and still be Maffing!! I think the next time I try I can probably hit 190.

I suggest a MAX HR test for everyone so they can find a true MAF HR.

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e-Gel

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posted Jun-21-2006 05:19 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kommish77:
Well I took my first MAF test Saturday on the treadmill and it went pretty good. At least now I have something to compare back to later on.I was hoping to try a MAX HR test after running the 5 miles but I couldn't push my HR past 165 on the treadmill. I knew that that was nowhere near close because I have seen 172 running outside at a 10:30ish pace.

So today I went to the track to see how slow outside running is with MAF (140) compared to the treadmill (16:24/mile). Unfortunately the track was occupied with some kind of kids meet so I just had to run/walk for an hour at MAF pace. I didn't have my GPS to know how far I ran so I don't know what pace I was running. But after my slow run/walk I decided to crank it up and see what kind of MAX HR I could get. I am sooooo glad I did because I now have a "new" MAX HR of 187. I am glad that I can start running a little faster and still be Maffing!! I think the next time I try I can probably hit 190.

I suggest a MAX HR test for everyone so they can find a true MAF HR.

---

For most people, unless max heart rate is extremely low, the
Mark Allen formulas will be good enough and max heart rate wouldn't
be needed. How are you using your max heart rate to compute a
MAF heart rate?

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posted Jun-21-2006 05:27 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
Your amazing! When I do Chicago this year my goal is to finish with a kick and meet my time. I start Daniels in a few weeks. Currently I am still Maffing. I am doing strides and everything. This is my question. My goal is a 8 mm at the marathon. Do you believe that I must be able to MAF at 8mm for me to achieve my goal? If my memory servers me right you ran Grandma's @ a 07:22 mm pace. Is this your MAF pace?
kcy1988,
Maffetone addresses this on page 53 of his book in relation to 5k race pace. I think he is conservative in his estimates. He predicts a race pace of 7:30 if MAF pace is 10:00. I'm still above 10:00 and my 5k pace is below 7:00. I wish he had made similar charts for races of longer distances.

---

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posted Jun-21-2006 07:38 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
For most people, unless max heart rate is extremely low, the
Mark Allen formulas will be good enough and max heart rate wouldn't
be needed. How are you using your max heart rate to compute a
MAF heart rate?

---

Oh man, you just ruined my day...lol. I was thinking last night that it was (MAX HR - age = MAF) because I was at 180 MAX using the (220 - age) formula. I had forgotten that for MAF it was 180 - age no matter what! Bummer, but thanks for reminding me.

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posted Jun-21-2006 09:40 AM            

1) I've read about people (Jessie?) doing almost all training runs under 140 AHR, then running a race at over 170 AHR. Was there any training at any "middle" levels between the MAF training and the race? (i.e. ~ 150, ~160, etc.) How the heck are you supposed know what pace you will be able to maintain throughout a race if you haven't trained anywhere near that level?

2) I'd like to start doing this training, because I certainly have poor aerobic fitness (and 10-15 lbs I could lose), but there are some races coming up in my home town that I would really like to run in -- namely a 5k in 8 weeks, 8k in 9 weeks (they are part of the same event) and 10k in 17 weeks. Is it possible to get much benefit from this training with 3 races in the next 4 months? I was thinking of running under MAF (150 for me) for, say, 80% of my runs, and running "however I want", the other 20%. Then maybe go into 3 or 4 months of "full MAF" after the 10k, during the winter. Would this be a good approach?

3) I assume I won't be able to "run" under my MAF after 3k or 4k at first because my HR will slide up too much. If this is the case, is it better to:

a) do shorter distances where I can run under MAF
b) do the distances I want, and walk whenever I need to to get the HR back down
c) use a higher number for my MAF until I get things under control

Thanks for any info, sorry if this has already been asked (which I'm sure it has been)
Tom

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posted Jun-21-2006 10:22 AM            

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posted Jun-21-2006 12:28 PM            

1) I've read about people (Jessie?) doing almost all training runs under 140 AHR, then running a race at over 170 AHR. Was there any training at any "middle" levels between the MAF training and the race? (i.e. ~ 150, ~160, etc.) How the heck are you supposed know what pace you will be able to maintain throughout a race if you haven't trained anywhere near that level?

That's a good question. It's been somewhat answered, but I'd like to know what people doing 5/10Ks do.

2) I'd like to start doing this training, because I certainly have poor aerobic fitness (and 10-15 lbs I could lose), but there are some races coming up in my home town that I would really like to run in -- namely a 5k in 8 weeks, 8k in 9 weeks (they are part of the same event) and 10k in 17 weeks. Is it possible to get much benefit from this training with 3 races in the next 4 months? I was thinking of running under MAF (150 for me) for, say, 80% of my runs, and running "however I want", the other 20%. Then maybe go into 3 or 4 months of "full MAF" after the 10k, during the winter. Would this be a good approach?

It couldn't hurt. I'm currently using 150 bpm for my ceiling. After a round of races this fall, I'm going to drop it back to a true MAF of 145 for the next go-around.

3) I assume I won't be able to "run" under my MAF after 3k or 4k at first because my HR will slide up too much. If this is the case, is it better to:

a) do shorter distances where I can run under MAF
b) do the distances I want, and walk whenever I need to to get the HR back down
c) use a higher number for my MAF until I get things under control

You can stay under MAF for the entire run without having to walk after the first 3K. Just start out slower. The faster you get up to the MAF max in a run, the slower your overall run will be as you're forced to slow. By starting slow, you can warm up and run a general quicker pace. For example, I usually start off at around 9-minute miles at the beginning of my run, and I'm running low 8:20s by the end.

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posted Jun-21-2006 02:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by flynnmcmahon:
Definitely Not carbo intolerant.
This morning I ate just an egg and I could NOT run more than 2.5 miles. I was shaking, I mean barely made it safely off the treadmill.

---

I think the best advice I can givre you right now is to go see your doctor about it. I can tell you are very frustrated over not being able to work out and are worried about it. I know I would be! I personally feel that seeing a doctor would be the best place to start. Something is just not right and needs to be corrected for your healths sake.

I wish you luck and please keep us posted.

Cathy

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posted Jun-21-2006 06:20 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomspec:
I've been watching over this thread for a while and I have a couple of questions (which may have been answered, but I can't really find.)

1) I've read about people (Jessie?) doing almost all training runs under 140 AHR, then running a race at over 170 AHR. Was there any training at any "middle" levels between the MAF training and the race? (i.e. ~ 150, ~160, etc.) How the heck are you supposed know what pace you will be able to maintain throughout a race if you haven't trained anywhere near that level?

2) I'd like to start doing this training, because I certainly have poor aerobic fitness (and 10-15 lbs I could lose), but there are some races coming up in my home town that I would really like to run in -- namely a 5k in 8 weeks, 8k in 9 weeks (they are part of the same event) and 10k in 17 weeks. Is it possible to get much benefit from this training with 3 races in the next 4 months? I was thinking of running under MAF (150 for me) for, say, 80% of my runs, and running "however I want", the other 20%. Then maybe go into 3 or 4 months of "full MAF" after the 10k, during the winter. Would this be a good approach?

3) I assume I won't be able to "run" under my MAF after 3k or 4k at first because my HR will slide up too much. If this is the case, is it better to:

a) do shorter distances where I can run under MAF
b) do the distances I want, and walk whenever I need to to get the HR back down
c) use a higher number for my MAF until I get things under control

Thanks for any info, sorry if this has already been asked (which I'm sure it has been)
Tom

---

1. I don't do any "middle range" training or speed work. I'm
not claiming that that's the best thing for anyone, but for me,
I do fine without it. I haven't seen anyone who has tried exactly
what I've done so it's hard to say how it will work for someone
else. Most people are very scared of trying this, afraid
that they'll die of embarrassment, their running careers will
end immediately because of the slow down, and maybe they
might even die. As much as I would like to believe it, I would find it hard
to believe that I'm special. It wasn't much more than a year
or two ago that my race performances were getting worse
and worse, I couldn't break the 4 hour marathon point, and
my body could barely tolerate 40-50 mpw of running.

2. Given that your first race isn't for 8 weeks in, it shouldn't
cause a significant setback. I wouldn't worry about it. Give it
a try. I wouldn't expect great performance 8 weeks in, but
who knows.

3. You should still be able to run under MAF after 3k-4k, you'll
just have to slow down a bit. You shouldn't slow down too much
until at least about 5 miles.

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posted Jun-21-2006 06:22 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kommish77:
Oh man, you just ruined my day...lol. I was thinking last night that it was (MAX HR - age = MAF) because I was at 180 MAX using the (220 - age) formula. I had forgotten that for MAF it was 180 - age no matter what! Bummer, but thanks for reminding me.

---

sorry

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posted Jun-21-2006 06:24 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by flynnmcmahon:
Definitely Not carbo intolerant.
This morning I ate just an egg and I could NOT run more than 2.5 miles. I was shaking, I mean barely made it safely off the treadmill.

---

I agree with stealth's assessment. But, maybe some careful
experimentation is in order. Is it possible, however, that you are
hypogycemic or something?

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posted Jun-21-2006 08:43 PM               

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posted Jun-21-2006 08:45 PM               

marathon 2, ...
...
(I'll defy what I just said and do the tahoe triple all at
once and post the training splits after all day 3)

---------------------------------
tahoe triple day 1, 10/6/05, 27 deg (alt 6400-7200 ft)
8:16/144, 8:08/155, 8:03/155, 8:00/157, 9:11/156,
8:54/156, 9:15/156, 9:03/156, 9:12/156, 9:15/155,
9:12/154, 9:24/156, 9:28/158, 9:37/161, 9:19/163,
9:05/165, 9:23/165, 9:24/162, 9:37/167, 8:30/167,
9:31/172, 8:46/171, 9:04/171, 10:10/172,11:56/172,
12:14/172, 1:02/170
avg HR 162, max 174, time 4:03:12
(last 4 miles were a 1000 ft unrelenting climb)

tahoe triple day 2, 10/7/05, 35 deg (alt 6400-7000 ft)
8:22/143, 8:19/150, 9:23/156, 8:05/154, 7:47/153,
9:08/156, 7:42/154, 8:54/155, 8:47/155, 8:53/156,
11:21/148 (stopped for construction for about 4 minutes),
8:45/156, 9:14/157, 9:07/159, 10:25/161, 8:58/157,
8:33/160, 9:10/164, 9:23/161, 9:40/162, 9:13/163,
9:11/166, 9:28/164, 10:03/169, 8:57/162, 9:31/165,
1:37(9:16/mi)/165
avg HR 158, max 174, time 3:58:10

tahoe triple day 3, 10/8/05, 45 deg (alt 6400-7200 ft)
9:04/150, 8:47/157, 8:20/157, 8:38/158, 8:48/159,
8:57/158, 8:52/156, 8:41/158, 9:00/157, 8:37/157,
9:10/156, 9:01/157, 9:00/158, 9:13/158, 8:06/158,
11:12/160, 11:57/162, 9:48/157, 8:33/152, 11:09/160 (steep up!),
8:03/156, 8:25/160, 8:15/162, 8:56/164, 10:04/160,
10:28/156, 4:03(8:45/mi)/161
avg HR 158, max 170, time 4:03:21

recent treadmill run, 10/3/05
9:11/133, 9:06/138, 8:57/139, 8:57/139, 8:58/140
avg HR 138, max 142

recent long training run, 9/23/05, temp 85 at end
8:55/132, 10:33/141, 9:29/141, 9:24/142, 9:43/143,
9:56/142, 9:55/143, 9:36/145, 10:26/149, 10:52/146,
10:40/150, 10:39/152, 10:41/143, 10:10/149, 11:42/149,
11:19/140, 11:19/140, 13:53/138, 12:06/XX, 11:56/xx
1:21/XX (HR monitor crapped out at end)
avg HR 147, max 172 (didn't worry about it going high
since race day was coming up)

-----------------------------------------------------

NCR trail marathon, 11/26/05, 28 deg (one week after 50 mile race)
7:04/164, 7:24/163, 7:52/161, 7:46/162, 7:44/163,
7:42/163, 7:29/163, 7:47/163, 7:38/163, 7:46/164,
7:42/163, 7:49/165, 7:52/166, 7:35/167, 7:11/168,
7:25/169, 7:24/170, 7:46/169, 7:46/169, 7:47/169,
8:02/170, 8:14/167, 8:00/167, 8:39/165, 8:34/167,
7:47/171, 2:34(7:52/mi)/178
avg HR 166, max 179, time 3:24:30

recent treadmill run, 11/25
7:52/141, 7:52/145, 8:15/143, 8:17/143, 8:18/144
avg HR 143, max 147

recent long run (before 50 mile race previous week), 11/12, 30 deg,
8:41/131, 9:16/141, 8:43/140, 8:31/141, 9:08/141,
9:33/XX, 8:04/140, 8:51/142, 8:29/141, 8:51/141,
8:36/141, 8:19/142, 9:15/143, 9:09/143, 8:15/146,
8:39/146, 8:41/151, 8:19/148, 9:23/148, 9:02/149,
3:11(8:42/mi)/154
avg HR 143, max 158

------------------------------------------------------

Greenbelt GW Birthday marathon, 2/19/06, 20 deg
7:26/155, 7:16/159, 7:36/165, 7:42/165, 7:36/164,
8:02/164, 7:22/165, 7:56/164, 8:02/165, 7:46/163,
7:48/163, 8:18/164, 8:13/164, 8:07/164, 8:17/163,
8:30/165, 8:31/164, 8:23/162, 8:18/166, 8:25/166,
8:06/169, 8:12/170, 8:17/170, 8:57/168, 8:35/166,
9:14/169, 3:25(7:13/mi)/172
avg HR 165, max 173, time 3:34:43

recent treadmill run, 2/13
8:56/126, 8:01/138, 7:55/143, 8:29/142, 8:35/141,
8:21/142, 7:55/144, 1:54/145
avg HR 139, max 146

recent long run, 2/11, 32 (snow)
9:35/135, 10:45/140, 9:42/141, 9:25/142, 10:03/141,
10:29/141, 8:58/141, 10:01/141, 9:19/141, 9:46/141,
9:44/141, 9:30/141, 10:24/142, 10:10/143, 9:20/145,
10:22/143, 10:23/143, 10:01/142, 10:58/143, 10:28/145,
3:21/145
avg HR 141, max 154

--------------------------------------------------------------------

B&A Trail marathon, 3/5/06, 25 deg
7:27/151, 7:17/164, 7:34/166, 7:18/166, 7:25/166,
7:10/165, 7:05/166, 7:36/168, 7:31/166, 7:28/166,
7:14/167, 7:24/167, 7:29/169, 7:27/171, 7:38/173,
7:46/171, 7:33/175, 7:46/173, 7:44/173, 7:46/168,
7:43/173, 8:01/173, 8:02/172, 8:00/173, 7:59/171,
7:55/176, 2:17(7:52/mi)/180
avg HR 169, max 184, time 3:19:49

recent treadmill run, 3/3/06
8:56/136, 8:32/143, 8:10/142, 8:20/143, 8:20/143,
8:16/144, 8:14/145, 1:12/144
avg HR 142, max 146

recent long run (day before marathon, 3/4/06), 25 deg
10:27/123, 10:26/129, 10:19/133, 9:49/133, 9:17/134,
9:59/135, 9:40/136, 9:43/136, 9:35/135, 10:06/135,
9:51/134, 10:09/135, 10:44/135, 10:19/135, 9:04/136,
10:05/140, 10:48/139, 9:48/137, 10:46/139, 10:44/139,
4:02/142
avg HR 135, max 148

------------------------------------------------------

Lower potomac marathon, 3/12/06, *82 deg*
7:02/151, 7:05/163, 7:11/164, 7:06/166, 7:16/165,
7:19/166, 7:14/165, 7:22/165, 7:23/165, 7:19/165,
7:23/166, 7:32/166, 7:30/166, 7:34/167, 7:42/168,
7:52/170, 8:21/169, 8:17/168, 8:13/169, 8:44/172,
8:46/170, 8:35/163(may have been low readings for
a few minutes), 9:01/168, 9:03/168, 9:05/171,
9:10/171, 3:57(8:19/mi)/167
avg HR 168, max 180, time 3:29:15

recent treadmill run, 3/6/06 (day after B&A marathon)
9:20/124, 8:27/136, 8:20/139, 8:20/141, 8:20/142,
8:21/143, 8:19/142, 0:35/141
avg HR 138, max 144

recent long run, 3/11/06 (day before marathon), 65 deg
9:31/137, 10:30/142, 9:41/141, 9:25/141, 9:50/142,
10:23/142, 9:25/139, 10:04/140, 9:25/146, 9:54/141,
9:43/141, 9:46/145, 10:34/142, 10:05/148, 9:33/143,
9:56/145, 9:55/147, 10:07/144, 11:04/145, 2:48/146
avg HR 142, max 153

---------------------------------------------------------------

Frederick Marathon, 4/30/06, 60 deg
6:41/154, 6:53/163, 6:55/164, 6:52/165, 6:59/167,
6:54/167, 7:16/168, 7:03/168, 7:26/167, 7:08/167,
7:07/167, 7:19/168, 7:10/168, 7:10/170, 7:16/169,
7:17/171, 7:23/170, 7:25/173, 7:26/170, 7:30/173,
7:25/175, 7:30/176, 7:23/176, 7:29/177, 7:51/178,
8:06/180, 3:38(7:31/mile)/178
avg HR 170, max 184, time 3:12:47 (ran off course, too!)

recent treadmill run, 4/24/06
8:30/125, 7:33/139, 7:50/141, 7:59/139, 8:10/141,
8:04/140, 8:15/141, 3:37/145
avg HR 138, max 143

recent long run, 4/23/06, GPS out, 19.3 miles, avg pace 9:37,
avg HR 137, max 152, temp 68

---------------------------------------------------------------

grandma's marathon, 6/17/06, 78 deg, 90% humidity
6:59/155, 6:56/164, 6:58/163, 7:12/164, 7:08/164,
7:14/165, 7:29/164, 7:32/164, 7:29/164, 7:07/163,
7:38/163, 7:31/162, 7:22/165, 7:29/166, 7:46/164,
7:39/166, 7:51/168, 7:48/169, 7:31/169, 7:46/171,
7:47/172, 8:06/169, 8:04/172, 7:48/175, 7:02/179,
7:06/185, 3:05/184(7:27/mi)
avg HR 168, max 185, time 3:17:35

recent treadmill run, 6/11/06 (day after half ironman)
8:30/128, 7:56/139, 8:28/140, 8:34/141, 8:34/142,
8:34/141, 8:34/141, 0:48/141
avg HR 139, max 143

recent long run, 6/3/06, 75 deg
9:08/139, 9:56/143, 9:15/142, 8:54/143, 9:28/145,
9:58/144, 8:32/143, 9:23/143, 9:11/142, 9:20/142,
9:33/142, 9:24/144, 10:12/145, 10:13/145, 9:35/145,
9:41/147, 9:59/149, 10:10/146, 10:07/144, 11:02/145,
5:38/147
avg HR 144, max 154

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posted Jun-21-2006 08:47 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runwun:
Here is my question i just tried my heart rate strap and i run on a tm at 8 mph for 7 miles and my heart rate never went over 140 im 44 and been racing all year so have i been doing maff style running all along??
thanks for your peoples help.....

---

not enough information to tell!

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posted Jun-22-2006 05:56 AM               

I have no reason not to stick to this.

Thanks
Roy

PS: I am 48 Maffetone 132

[This message has been edited by roy c (edited Jun-22-2006).]

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posted Jun-22-2006 08:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runwun:
Here is my question i just tried my heart rate strap and i run on a tm at 8 mph for 7 miles and my heart rate never went over 140 im 44 and been racing all year so have i been doing maff style running all along??
thanks for your peoples help.....

---

Not necessarily. You could have a low Max HR like me, which makes MAF inapplicable. I ran TM the other day at 7.3 and only once got up to 130 -- but that was my goal because my max HR is 163 and 130 is @ 80% max. My MAF is 138. I realized something was wrong when I ran at 138 and found myself huffing and puffing (as opposed to the experience of those who complain about how painfully slow they were going after taking up MAF training). I found that painfully slow pace by running at 70% max HR, 115 for me.

I suggest you find out your max HR and read the Hadd articles posted by leitnerj in his FAQs. It's made a big difference for me. Before, even using MAF, i'd burn out or get injured every time i approached 30 mpw. After doing the test and adjusting my pace accordingly, I ran 42 miles last week and may get to 50 this week. Neither the knee or hip is balking like they used to do.

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posted Jun-22-2006 03:47 PM            

For me its normal during warm up for the heart rate to be all over the place, and this can last from 100 yards to about a mile depending on the day, the heat, and whether I used gel on the monitor, or just used sweat or water.

I am surprised that your pace got faster at the same heart rate. Most of the time, the pace gets a little bit slower. But your times were consistent, not a wide variation. That's very good.

Cheers,

Cash

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posted Jun-22-2006 05:27 PM               

I ran it on the road mainly flat but I suppose a slight elevation might make a difference, but I was pleased with my start. I have no races now until December, so I can concentrate on this. Lately I have been finishing runs at a faster pace, maybe it is my new style of running ha.

Roy

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posted Jun-22-2006 08:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Ok, given that there have been a lot of questions about
training pace, training heart rate, race pace, race heart rate,
I thought I'd compile some of my own data for my last several
marathons along with the training paces leading up, so that
people don't have to dig through my training log to put all
the pieces together. So here's
what you'll see (in my usual format of mile split/avg HR over
split):
marathon 1, date, splits, temperature
most recent long run splits and temp
most recent treadmill run splits

marathon 2, ...
...
(I'll defy what I just said and do the tahoe triple all at
once and post the training splits after all day 3)

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Jesse,
Thanks for posting all of the data. It is interesting how your long runs are much slower than your MP. It gives me hope.
kcy

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posted Jun-22-2006 08:29 PM            

1k 6:48
2k 7:32
3k 7:28
4k 7:48
5k 8:02
6k 8:10
7k 8:24
8k 8:26

AHR 146, and I spent a total of 13 seconds over 150 by accident.

Tom

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posted Jun-22-2006 08:30 PM               

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