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Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen


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Author Topic:   Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen
r1girl
Cool Runner
posted Jun-16-2006 07:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for r1girl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok I ran this morning. I was scheduled to run a long run of 12 miles.

Now I started this MAF about 3 weeks ago.

Again a little background I have been struggling with runs and the hatred of my runs for about 2 years. Before that my marathons were anywhere from 8 to 10 minute miles. I was just about to drop running and crosstrain into something else when I discovered this thread. I said why not my last hope.

I am simply amazed!!!!! Know I have not been keeping a great detail log on this but here is what I know.

First week my heart rate was still going to 140 and up, it was so hard for me to slow down.

Week two better control.

Today I could see I am controlling heart rate 10 times better.

Now,again when I first started MAF, I would say at 140 at the beginning I was running a 14 minute mile, which if I wasn't watching heart rate I would run a 10:00 minute mile. And Lord knows what my heart rate was while I was doing that!!!!

The biggest thing of all was I started noticing that I am enjoying running again. I wake up now and look forward to running. I am more energetic!!!!

Today's 12 mile run, I started out by saying "ok well do what you can".

By the way I was hating running so much my miles were going backwards and for the last six months , except for the last 3 weeks my miles never went over 8 miles, and those were rare. Last week I did 10.

So here I go start my run, my miles were anywhere from 13 minute miles to 13:30 minute miles. My heart rate for the first 6 miles was 123-127 even hills. Mile 6 to 9 127-134 Mile 10 about 135 and Mile 11-12 138-140.

My MAF max is 134.

I loved my whole 12 mile run and even at the end of the run I felt I could go on. I can't believe I have done a 360 on how I feel about running. I feel like my old self again!!!!! I am so happy!!!!! I am a little scared about the 13:30 minute mile but at this point loving running again and that's all that counts.

And to be honest all during the run I felt I could just take off anytime. The whole 12 miles was effortless, a piece of cake, so I have that confidence that the speed will come.

I am going to try to keep a more detailed log and get into this more. If you notice my heart rate did start to climb at the end.

Also Monday, I bike 56 miles I tried to keep in MAF range, which I did do a very good job if I say so myself. The following morning for my run of 5 miles it seemed like my heart rate was up high again. Since I am paying more attention to my heart rate, I am starting to notice this more. I also notice if I have a relaxing day, the day before, the next day my heart rate is lower. Any thoughts let me know.

Just wanted to share this happiness

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A6RNNER
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posted Jun-17-2006 05:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for A6RNNER   Click Here to Email A6RNNER     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hey jesse or anyone else. i guess i didnt have enough pressure on my first marathon in november so i went and signed up for my first oly tri in september. i have completed my first week (almost) of biking and swimming, in addition to keeping what i have been doing running. now jesse i know you and many others do all 3 disciplines and run marathons as well. do you have any "pearls of wisdom" as to someone to cant train twice per day, but only once, and time isnt an issue for that one training session. i am still maff running and in my mind will need to do the same with biking and swimming. any help?
walter

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10smom62
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posted Jun-18-2006 10:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 10smom62     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Jesse,

This is another question that I am sure that has been asked and I would love to search for if there were only a search engine on the site!!

When you run your races of any distance is your pace based on a time goal or HR? If HR what calculation do you choose for racing HR pace? Is it based off of Hadd methods of Max heart rate- 20 for marathon (and I think a little higher for shorter distances)? Thanks for your help.

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10smom62
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posted Jun-18-2006 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 10smom62     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Qustion part two for jesse,

I noticed in your training log that you seemed to make a significant improvement in pace in training runs below MAF AFTER you began doing mid-distance road races. Were you aware of that correlation? Do you think you would have improved as fast if you did not do a road race every so often? Have others using MAF training had similar experiences?

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Jun-18-2006 12:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by A6RNNER:
hey jesse or anyone else. i guess i didnt have enough pressure on my first marathon in november so i went and signed up for my first oly tri in september. i have completed my first week (almost) of biking and swimming, in addition to keeping what i have been doing running. now jesse i know you and many others do all 3 disciplines and run marathons as well. do you have any "pearls of wisdom" as to someone to cant train twice per day, but only once, and time isnt an issue for that one training session. i am still maff running and in my mind will need to do the same with biking and swimming. any help?
walter


Fortunately, for an olympic tri, you can get along without much volume.
I would suggest you take a look at some of the schedules at
trinewbies.com. If you're not able to keep up with their olympic schedule,
then you'll have to make it more by "heart" than by training. In either
case, I would recommend that you get in some bricks, bike immediately
followed by run, because that's an important transition to get used to
before the race.

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Jun-18-2006 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 10smom62:
Qustion part two for jesse,

I noticed in your training log that you seemed to make a significant improvement in pace in training runs below MAF AFTER you began doing mid-distance road races. Were you aware of that correlation? Do you think you would have improved as fast if you did not do a road race every so often? Have others using MAF training had similar experiences?


Ok, for your previous question: if you dig through all the gory
details of this thread, you'll see my long winded responses. My
HR approach in a marathon is to find a comfortably challenging pace,
take note of the heart rate and sustain that heart rate for a while,
then eventually start to let it increase gradually. I don't recommend
using any formula or suggestion for a specific racing heart rate.

Most of my conditioning improvements occured during the many
months of exclusive MAF training. You can see this if you plot
my pace versus time for long runs . However, by running a lot of
races, I have learned how to efficiently run races. For the most
part, after races, my pace at low heart rates withers away a bit,
especially after several races. There's a lot of data to sift through
to put all of the pieces together.

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Jun-18-2006 12:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just got back from Minnesota, where I ran Grandma's marathon.
Posted the race report with splits/avg HR in the race reports
section. While I've noticed my conditioning has withered a bit
in the last month or so while the weather has gotten hot, I
was surprised at how well I was able to do, especially in the
warm and muggy conditions. And this time, I decided to kick
it up a notch for the last couple of miles just to see if I could.

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kcy1998
Cool Runner
posted Jun-19-2006 07:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kcy1998     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Just got back from Minnesota, where I ran Grandma's marathon.
Posted the race report with splits/avg HR in the race reports
section. While I've noticed my conditioning has withered a bit
in the last month or so while the weather has gotten hot, I
was surprised at how well I was able to do, especially in the
warm and muggy conditions. And this time, I decided to kick
it up a notch for the last couple of miles just to see if I could.



Jesse,
Your amazing! When I do Chicago this year my goal is to finish with a kick and meet my time. I start Daniels in a few weeks. Currently I am still Maffing. I am doing strides and everything. This is my question. My goal is a 8 mm at the marathon. Do you believe that I must be able to MAF at 8mm for me to achieve my goal? If my memory servers me right you ran Grandma's @ a 07:22 mm pace. Is this your MAF pace?

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Jun-19-2006 07:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
Your amazing! When I do Chicago this year my goal is to finish with a kick and meet my time. I start Daniels in a few weeks. Currently I am still Maffing. I am doing strides and everything. This is my question. My goal is a 8 mm at the marathon. Do you believe that I must be able to MAF at 8mm for me to achieve my goal? If my memory servers me right you ran Grandma's @ a 07:22 mm pace. Is this your MAF pace?


absolutely not, to both questions! first of all, if you look at my
running log, specifically at my outdoor runs, my pace at MAF for
the last few weeks has been in the 9s and 10s. Very slow compared
to where I was before my last few marathons. Then add the fact
that the humidity was > 90% and that the temperature hit about
80. You can pull it from my race report or running log, but here
were my splits/avg HR:

6:59/155, 6:56/164, 6:58/163, 7:12/164, 7:08/164,
7:14/165, 7:29/164, 7:32/164, 7:29/164, 7:07/163,
7:38/163, 7:31/162, 7:22/165, 7:29/166, 7:46/164,
7:39/166, 7:51/168, 7:48/169, 7:31/169, 7:46/171,
7:47/172, 8:06/169, 8:04/172, 7:48/175, 7:02/179,
7:06/185, 3:05/184(7:27/mi)

Since it was so hot, I was more conservative than I would
have been otherwise as far as HR goes (although,
I kicked it up a notch later more than I would usually).
My average HR was 168, lower than the 171 I had last
marathon (in which I did 3:12 but in very nice cool
conditions).

So, in short, my MAF pace in the heat has been slower
than 10 min/mile, but I averaged better than 7:30 per
mile in the marathon. Now that surprises even me!
I would have been very satisfied with a 3:40. Although
this data set probably doesn't help you at all, hopefully it
answers your question.

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Noquickfix
Cool Runner
posted Jun-19-2006 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Noquickfix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Leitner,
I've been training at MAF+ 5 (146) since mid-January and I'm ready to move on. Wanted to ask you about long runs. Instead of running 18 - 22 milers at MAF, what do you think about building up to a high heart rate? For example, run the first 5 miles under a HR of 140, the next 5 under 150, next 5 under 160, the final miles in the 170's.
I've definitely benefited from the MAF training style. Unfortunately, I never tested on a treadmill, so I'm not able to show accurate, controlled improvements. I will definitely utilize a treadmill next season when I start a second cycle at MAF. Any other recommendations for post MAF training?
Thanks

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Jun-19-2006 10:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Noquickfix:
Leitner,
I've been training at MAF+ 5 (146) since mid-January and I'm ready to move on. Wanted to ask you about long runs. Instead of running 18 - 22 milers at MAF, what do you think about building up to a high heart rate? For example, run the first 5 miles under a HR of 140, the next 5 under 150, next 5 under 160, the final miles in the 170's.
I've definitely benefited from the MAF training style. Unfortunately, I never tested on a treadmill, so I'm not able to show accurate, controlled improvements. I will definitely utilize a treadmill next season when I start a second cycle at MAF. Any other recommendations for post MAF training?
Thanks


In general, I think progression runs are a good form of training.
You're probably asking the wrong person here, since I've done so
well without anything more aggressive, but in general, everyone
should try what feels right and see how it works. If I were to go
that route, I wouldn't do such a progression run for every long run -
I'd probably try it for about every third long run, perhaps every other
one if keeping the first half entirely under MAF. Whether you do
any treadmill runs is really not important. My first recommendation
after the base is built is most typically a fast-finish long run, but
I would generally say that the last 3-6 miles would be at MRP
or faster, but not more than that. Nonetheless, I'm certainly not
the source for the right answer, or even the best answer, but
simply the "what Jesse would do" answer, worth the entire set of
electrons you paid for it!

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VikeKingDan
Member
posted Jun-20-2006 01:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for VikeKingDan   Click Here to Email VikeKingDan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Two things, quickly:

First off, congratulations on Grandma's. And a belated welcome to Minnesota. Grandma's in a great venue. Last time Aharmer and I ran it, it was like 78 and we baked. I heard last weekend was horrific for humidity. I hope you enjoyed the scenery a little on the way

Secondly, just as a followup to my question a couple pages ago about the slowest pace you can comfortably run. I think I said I could only go as slow as 12:00 min/mi with walking thrown in to control my HR. I'm posting this for anyone else who reads the whole thread - you WILL learn to run slower. Just give yourself a couple weeks. I ran a blistering 13:34 today for my average mile, but at least I was running nearly the entire time. It takes a little time to train your body, so don't beat yourself up.

Thanks,
Dan

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The Kevman
Member
posted Jun-20-2006 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Kevman   Click Here to Email The Kevman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well Gang, 25 days into MAFF training and It seems that I have improved about 20 seconds per mile at MAFF -3. I started at 12:59 per mile and now down to 12:39 today. Keep in mind I just started running in March. Additionally I ran for 1 hour which I have never done before. Thanks for all the info posted here. My goal is to get my base up and start training in September for a HM. Thanks again for a great forum.

Kev

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The Kevman
Member
posted Jun-20-2006 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Kevman   Click Here to Email The Kevman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well Gang, 25 days into MAFF training and It seems that I have improved about 20 seconds per mile at MAFF -3. I started at 12:59 per mile and now down to 12:39 today. Keep in mind I just started running in March. Additionally I ran for 1 hour which I have never done before. Thanks for all the info posted here. My goal is to get my base up and start training in September for a HM. Thanks again for a great forum.

Kev

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kcy1998
Cool Runner
posted Jun-20-2006 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kcy1998     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikeKingDan:
Two things, quickly:

First off, congratulations on Grandma's. And a belated welcome to Minnesota. Grandma's in a great venue. Last time Aharmer and I ran it, it was like 78 and we baked. I heard last weekend was horrific for humidity. I hope you enjoyed the scenery a little on the way

Secondly, just as a followup to my question a couple pages ago about the slowest pace you can comfortably run. I think I said I could only go as slow as 12:00 min/mi with walking thrown in to control my HR. I'm posting this for anyone else who reads the whole thread - you WILL learn to run slower. Just give yourself a couple weeks. I ran a blistering 13:34 today for my average mile, but at least I was running nearly the entire time. It takes a little time to train your body, so don't beat yourself up.

Thanks,
Dan



Dan,
I am with you about the running slow but it does pay off. If you view the link you will see how I started out at a crawl and am currently running 09:40 at MAF. Note that I just started my 24th week. I have started to throw in some strides at the end of my MAF runs. My goal race is Chicago in October.

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kcy1998
Cool Runner
posted Jun-20-2006 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kcy1998     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
absolutely not, to both questions! first of all, if you look at my
running log, specifically at my outdoor runs, my pace at MAF for
the last few weeks has been in the 9s and 10s. Very slow compared
to where I was before my last few marathons. Then add the fact
that the humidity was > 90% and that the temperature hit about
80. You can pull it from my race report or running log, but here
were my splits/avg HR:

6:59/155, 6:56/164, 6:58/163, 7:12/164, 7:08/164,
7:14/165, 7:29/164, 7:32/164, 7:29/164, 7:07/163,
7:38/163, 7:31/162, 7:22/165, 7:29/166, 7:46/164,
7:39/166, 7:51/168, 7:48/169, 7:31/169, 7:46/171,
7:47/172, 8:06/169, 8:04/172, 7:48/175, 7:02/179,
7:06/185, 3:05/184(7:27/mi)

Since it was so hot, I was more conservative than I would
have been otherwise as far as HR goes (although,
I kicked it up a notch later more than I would usually).
My average HR was 168, lower than the 171 I had last
marathon (in which I did 3:12 but in very nice cool
conditions).

So, in short, my MAF pace in the heat has been slower
than 10 min/mile, but I averaged better than 7:30 per
mile in the marathon. Now that surprises even me!
I would have been very satisfied with a 3:40. Although
this data set probably doesn't help you at all, hopefully it
answers your question.


Jesse,
Your input is greatly apprecriated. I am just trying to get an idea if my Marathon time is based upon my MAF times. Using you as my example I have to say "NO". This is based on the assumption that I have adhered to the proper marathon training program. If my MAF times need to be the same as my targeted MP then I was going to be depressed. At this time my MAF is 01:40 slower than my desired MP. The information you provided does not gurantee that I can turn my 09:40 MAF runs into a 08:00 MP but it does give me hope.
Thanks,
kcy

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VikeKingDan
Member
posted Jun-20-2006 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for VikeKingDan   Click Here to Email VikeKingDan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
kcy,

That graph of your first four miles at MAF is exactly what I needed to see. I'm not far enough into it yet to get a real shape/trend from my own chart. Thanks!

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StealthRunner
Cool Runner
posted Jun-20-2006 01:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for StealthRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kcy1998:

The information you provided does not gurantee that I can turn my 09:40 MAF runs into a 08:00 MP but it does give me hope.
Thanks,
kcy

[/B]


kcy- More hope for you. If this lady can run the first 10k of a marathon like a 10k race ( ) and end up with an overall pace of 1mm faster than my MAF, I'm sure that you can do better with correct pacing!

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kcy1998
Cool Runner
posted Jun-20-2006 03:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kcy1998     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by StealthRunner:
kcy- More hope for you. If this lady can run the first 10k of a marathon like a 10k race ( ) and end up with an overall pace of 1mm faster than my MAF, I'm sure that you can do better with correct pacing!


StealthRunner,
One thing that everyone tells me is my pacing is constant. If you have seen the video on my running page you can tell that I have hit the wall BIG TIME! Until Chicago I will continue to MAF with some speed work. I do not want my legs to forget how to run fast.
Thanks for the encouraging words.
kcy

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kcy1998
Cool Runner
posted Jun-20-2006 03:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kcy1998     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikeKingDan:
kcy,

That graph of your first four miles at MAF is exactly what I needed to see. I'm not far enough into it yet to get a real shape/trend from my own chart. Thanks!


VikeKingDan,
MAF is not a quick fix. I have had success when I look back and see where I came from. I do believe that the longer runs, 8+, have been very beneficial. Now my long runs are in the 12+ mile range. My real test will be at Chicago in October. Hang in there and do not give up.
kcy

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StealthRunner
Cool Runner
posted Jun-20-2006 04:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for StealthRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MAF work has worked for me. I still PRed that race on a harder course. Keep going. My long runs did include some MRP work at the end.

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RUNSUB3
Cool Runner
posted Jun-20-2006 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RUNSUB3     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey guys, I was wondering if you can help me out. I'm a 20 year old male with limited running experience, meaning I ran off and on here and there. So my MAF should be 155. However, I remember reading something saying to add 5 bpm if you are 20 or younger. I am not sure as to what my MAF should be, 155 or 160. Today for example, I went out for 5.63 miles and I was hitting the 155-160 avg and felt fine. I don't know what I should stick at. Thank you.

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Jun-20-2006 06:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RUNSUB3:
Hey guys, I was wondering if you can help me out. I'm a 20 year old male with limited running experience, meaning I ran off and on here and there. So my MAF should be 155. However, I remember reading something saying to add 5 bpm if you are 20 or younger. I am not sure as to what my MAF should be, 155 or 160. Today for example, I went out for 5.63 miles and I was hitting the 155-160 avg and felt fine. I don't know what I should stick at. Thank you.

It's really hard to say - it seems that with younger runners (below about
25) something really individualized is required, so you may need some
trial and error. If 155-160 avg felt about like what you were doing, try
sticking with sub-150 for a while. Pretty arbitrary, I know. I'd be curious
to know what your max heart rate is .

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flynnmcmahon
Cool Runner
posted Jun-20-2006 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for flynnmcmahon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So heres a question. I have always been a slow runner. I mean slow, always. Since a teen I have been able to do longer distances but was horrible at sprints and such.
So if I've always been slow how will slowing down help me? Ya know what I mean? I'd like to drop a few pounds and run my 2nd marathon in October. I have printed out the Beginners Marathon plan from this site and plan on trying to follow that. I am 36, will be 37 in August and running @ 5.0 on my treadmill with a 1% incline has my HR around 138-140 give or take. If I run outside, it always spikes up. Well if thats how I've run for, I don't know, maybe forever, how would this type of training help me out.
I haven't been able to do any marathons in the past couple of years due to simple exhaustion and burn out. My first marathon I just ran and ran, tons of miles at my turtle pace. Didn't have a HR monitor back than though but if I had to estimate I def ran slow and would have to guess my HR was around 140-150.
Thoughts?

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Jun-20-2006 09:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by flynnmcmahon:
So heres a question. I have always been a slow runner. I mean slow, always. Since a teen I have been able to do longer distances but was horrible at sprints and such.
So if I've always been slow how will slowing down help me? Ya know what I mean? I'd like to drop a few pounds and run my 2nd marathon in October. I have printed out the Beginners Marathon plan from this site and plan on trying to follow that. I am 36, will be 37 in August and running @ 5.0 on my treadmill with a 1% incline has my HR around 138-140 give or take. If I run outside, it always spikes up. Well if thats how I've run for, I don't know, maybe forever, how would this type of training help me out.
I haven't been able to do any marathons in the past couple of years due to simple exhaustion and burn out. My first marathon I just ran and ran, tons of miles at my turtle pace. Didn't have a HR monitor back than though but if I had to estimate I def ran slow and would have to guess my HR was around 140-150.
Thoughts?

First, we should be clear to distinguish "slow" from "lacking endurance."
My recommended way to make the assessment as to whether
"lacking endurance" applies to you is to look at item #1 in the FAQ
and see if several of items a-h apply to you. If none of them apply
to you, then you're endurance is probably fine, in which case, you're
best bet is to incorporate speed work. Slowing down in itself does
not make someone faster. That's obvious. Running a good amount
of mileage well into one's aerobic zone can build endurance and
"stretch out" the distance one can carry his/her short distance speed,
over time. So, the first thing to do is to understand what you have to
work on and figure out how to tackle it.

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