posted Jun-14-2006 08:20 PM              

6/1 4.5mi @ 11:20/mi & 128 avg HR
6/2 5.5mi @ 12:00/mi & 129 avg HR
6/3 4.5mi @ 11:20 & 137 avg
6/4 4.9mi @ 11:15 & 131
6/5 3.5mi @ 9:30 & 141
6/6 off
6/7 off
6/8 4mi @ 11:50 & 141
6/9 5.1mi @ 10:50 & 134
6/10 5.1mi @ 11:10 & 134
6/11 5.1mi @ 11:00 & 137
6/12 off
6/12 off
6/13 3mi @ 10:00 & 130 avg HR

I'm sure you'll going to tell me I am running too fast and should get to 130 and below. I'll try to run farther and keep the avg no higher than 132. The variability above is usually due to heat and humidity differences.

I'll try a 5 mile MAF test at the track as soon as I can and will repeat it in a month. I'd really like to do a 5k in mid July but maybe I'll stick to this base building through July.

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posted Jun-14-2006 09:12 PM            

I have been running for 9 years, but didn't get "serious" (i.e. timing my runs and increasing my mileage over 5 miles) until about a year ago. I trained for my first marathon and ran it well (i.e. I was happy). During my training, I was perplexed over the pace you should run in while training. This basebuilding makes great sense. However, at what HR do you run your race in? And how do you maintain it over 26.2 miles if you don't run that pace in your training - or do you?

When I was training, I would average an 8-8:30 mile with tempos in the 7:15 range. I ran my race starting around a 9 minute mile because I wanted to be conservative, not bonk, etc.. I did not have a HRM, but focused on even breathing - if I was huffing - I was going too fast. I felt great, never hit the wall, and had negative splits for the last 6 miles (ave. 8:55). Problem? I felt like I left way too much out there....Now I want to improve, and I only need to cut 13 minutes to BQ. I like the idea of the heart rate base building, but as asked above, at what rate do you train in?

Obviously I have a lot to learn

Thanks!!

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posted Jun-14-2006 09:38 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Midnightsun:
I'm new to MAF, only starting 2 weeks ago! I'll post data points when I get enough to show any progress or lack thereof.

I'm currently building my base mileage at MAF HR, but I'm recovering from some nagging injuries so my mileage is low (currently 15 mpw down from 30 mpw) and it will take me a couple of months to get where I was before. In the meantime I'm biking several days a week at MAF HR. How much impact will biking at MAF 4-6 hours a week have on my running progress?

Thanks for the great thread.

---

I think it will be a very helpful supplement - it's hard to see how
significant an effect it will have on your MAF running pace, but I'm
sure it will really help build your aerobic system. I believe,
circumstantially, that it has helped me significantly, along with
swimming at MAF.

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posted Jun-14-2006 09:39 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
Well, it seemed like my MAF# was awful high. I finally went out and ran some sprints to find my max HR and, uh oh, it's 163. I followed your FAQ and wandered over to HADD and will try to follow that -- although it seems much more complicated.

Incidentally, according to Hadd, my easy run should be @115 bpm. I tried it and NOW, I understand what people are saying when they say MAF feels to slow.

I wonder: is a low max HR good, bad, or neutral?

---

You have to warm-up for a long time, at least 4-5 miles, maybe more, and then start pushing the speed, or run hills. I did a sprint test ala Hadd (after warming up 2 miles) when I first started HRT and came out with a 183. About six months later, i ran a half-marathon and really pushed as hard as I could the last mile, and got a 195. I just saw 197 in my last marathon as I sprinted the last half mile. I'm most likely a 200.

That being said, I would bet that your max HR is at least 175-180. So, my recommendation is to warm-up for a lot longer either in training or in a race, then do your hard running. Whatever you come up with, add 5. I'm of the belief it is very hard to get to your max, you have to put up with some major discomfort. Most people, including myself, probably back off a bit.

It doesn't hurt to be wrong on the low side, but I would rather be as close as possible to get the best training effect. Then again, if you're Maffing it up, it doesn't matter.

Good luck!

--Jimmy

My Running World
Current Training

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posted Jun-14-2006 09:40 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
Well, it seemed like my MAF# was awful high. I finally went out and ran some sprints to find my max HR and, uh oh, it's 163. I followed your FAQ and wandered over to HADD and will try to follow that -- although it seems much more complicated.

Incidentally, according to Hadd, my easy run should be @115 bpm. I tried it and NOW, I understand what people are saying when they say MAF feels to slow.

I wonder: is a low max HR good, bad, or neutral?

---

I would say a low max heart rate is entirely neutral. Everyone
I know with a low max heart rate is very fast, but I think it's
purely coincidental.

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posted Jun-14-2006 09:49 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runninlaw:
Wow - I am very intriged by this thread. I am amazed at everyone's progress and dedication.

I have been running for 9 years, but didn't get "serious" (i.e. timing my runs and increasing my mileage over 5 miles) until about a year ago. I trained for my first marathon and ran it well (i.e. I was happy). During my training, I was perplexed over the pace you should run in while training. This basebuilding makes great sense. However, at what HR do you run your race in? And how do you maintain it over 26.2 miles if you don't run that pace in your training - or do you?

When I was training, I would average an 8-8:30 mile with tempos in the 7:15 range. I ran my race starting around a 9 minute mile because I wanted to be conservative, not bonk, etc.. I did not have a HRM, but focused on even breathing - if I was huffing - I was going too fast. I felt great, never hit the wall, and had negative splits for the last 6 miles (ave. 8:55). Problem? I felt like I left way too much out there....Now I want to improve, and I only need to cut 13 minutes to BQ. I like the idea of the heart rate base building, but as asked above, at what rate do you train in?

Obviously I have a lot to learn

Thanks!!

---

Before this type of training, my training heart rate range was
from about 160-195, pace between about 7:45 and 10 (only
that slow late in runs when I burned out and "lost" my training
race.) In MAF training, most of my mileage is at a HR of 139,
with paces ranging from low 7s (on the treadmill when my
conditioning is good) to the low 11s (outdoors, hills, when
it's hotter than I'm used to or my conditioning is at a low).
My last marathon was in 3:12 and change, avg heart rate of
171. If you look at my running log for 4/30/06, you can see
my splits and avg heart rate per split. So I have no problem
running pretty much all of my training mileage at under 140
and running in the 160s and 170s in a marathon, even higher
in shorter races. I took around an hour off of my marathon
time with this approach, 8 minutes off of my 10 mile time,
5 minutes from my 10k time, and 30+ seconds off of my
one mile race time.

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posted Jun-14-2006 10:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
You have to warm-up for a long time, at least 4-5 miles, maybe more, and then start pushing the speed, or run hills. I did a sprint test ala Hadd (after warming up 2 miles) when I first started HRT and came out with a 183. About six months later, i ran a half-marathon and really pushed as hard as I could the last mile, and got a 195. I just saw 197 in my last marathon as I sprinted the last half mile. I'm most likely a 200.

That being said, I would bet that your max HR is at least 175-180. So, my recommendation is to warm-up for a lot longer either in training or in a race, then do your hard running. Whatever you come up with, add 5. I'm of the belief it is very hard to get to your max, you have to put up with some major discomfort. Most people, including myself, probably back off a bit.

It doesn't hurt to be wrong on the low side, but I would rather be as close as possible to get the best training effect. Then again, if you're Maffing it up, it doesn't matter.

Good luck!

--Jimmy

My Running World
Current Training

---

Thanks. I did the 2 mile warmup also. I'll add 5 and give it a few weeks just to get the mileage up w/o injury and then use a July 4 5K as another test. I'm really just looking for a way to get the most bang for the running buck, with the Marine Corps Marathon as the goal.

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posted Jun-14-2006 10:09 PM               

To answer your max HR question...it is neither good nor bad. Max HR is completely genetic and is not an indicator of fitness level.

To determine the accuracy of your max HR test there are a couple of questions that should be answered. First what is your age? Second, when you say a couple of sprints...what exactly does that involve?

Ideally a couple of sprints should involve a 1/4 mile incline done at least twice, and should be preceded by 4-5 miles of running. Unfortunately the most intense sprints you can muster probably cannot get you to your max unless they are framed by the correct variables.

------------------
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posted Jun-14-2006 10:31 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Before this type of training, my training heart rate range was
from about 160-195, pace between about 7:45 and 10 (only
that slow late in runs when I burned out and "lost" my training
race.) In MAF training, most of my mileage is at a HR of 139,
with paces ranging from low 7s (on the treadmill when my
conditioning is good) to the low 11s (outdoors, hills, when
it's hotter than I'm used to or my conditioning is at a low).
My last marathon was in 3:12 and change, avg heart rate of
171. If you look at my running log for 4/30/06, you can see
my splits and avg heart rate per split. So I have no problem
running pretty much all of my training mileage at under 140
and running in the 160s and 170s in a marathon, even higher
in shorter races. I took around an hour off of my marathon
time with this approach, 8 minutes off of my 10 mile time,
5 minutes from my 10k time, and 30+ seconds off of my
one mile race time.

---

So how do you jump from training at the 140 level to the 160-170 level without training there - doesn't exactly that cause the infamous bonk? And how does your body run efficiently and with good form when you increase so much for a race without training at that level?

------------------
Me

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posted Jun-14-2006 11:01 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runninlaw:
So how do you jump from training at the 140 level to the 160-170 level without training there - doesn't exactly that cause the infamous bonk? And how does your body run efficiently and with good form when you increase so much for a race without training at that level?

---

The infamous bonk has nothing to do with doing something harder
than you're used to. It has mostly to do with running out of glycogen
stores. I must admit that there's something mysterious about some
aspects of this, but the key is that you're training yourself to get
"fast" (always a relative term, of course) when using mostly fat
for fuel. Spending a lot of time running at low heart rates (and hence
at low respiratory quotients, where mostly fat is used for fuel) is
what does this. The part that is still a bit mysterious to me is that
also at higher heart rates, you're still using a large percentage of
fat for fuel (not so much as at the lower heart rates), even if you
really spend no time running at them. I'll go on a
limb here and say that hitting the wall is primarily an artifact of
(1) very weak aerobic fitness or (2) moderately weak aerobic fitness
and/or poor pacing and/or very poor nutrition. So here's my example:
Prior to this type of training, I hit the wall in many to most 20 mile
training runs and depended on several gels just to get me through,
even in cool weather. After this type of training, I've run some marathons
with no gels or carb intake whatsoever, several with carb intake in the
way of gatorade only (no gels), and the rest with one gel and/or
gatorade. In my last marathon, my target was 3:15:59 (what I needed
for BQ). I took one gel at mile 15, just in case I needed it. My first
six miles, I believe, were around 6:50 and change (only because my
heart rate was low). I just let my pace slow moderately while my
heart rate climbed. Most of the last several miles were in the high
7s, with one just over 8 (with the largest hill) and I finished with a
smile, over 3 minutes faster than my goal and 7 minutes faster than
my previous PR from a month and a half earlier.

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posted Jun-15-2006 12:31 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:

I finished with a
smile, over 3 minutes faster than my goal and 7 minutes faster than
my previous PR from a month and a half earlier.

[/B]

---

This caught my eye. This looks like a 26.2 mile tempo run followed by six weeks of MAF training to recover stronger for a goal marathon. This would kill me but it sure worked for you. Did you do your usual 20 mi MAF run the day before the BQ? You are way too awesome.

Good luck with your 100miler.

Cathy

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posted Jun-15-2006 07:18 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Martin,

To answer your max HR question...it is neither good nor bad. Max HR is completely genetic and is not an indicator of fitness level.

To determine the accuracy of your max HR test there are a couple of questions that should be answered. First what is your age? Second, when you say a couple of sprints...what exactly does that involve?

Ideally a couple of sprints should involve a 1/4 mile incline done at least twice, and should be preceded by 4-5 miles of running. Unfortunately the most intense sprints you can muster probably cannot get you to your max unless they are framed by the correct variables.

---

I'm 42, been running regularly for less than a year, and followed Hadd's procedures, namely two miles warmup, then 800 meters on a track all out, rest 2 minutes, then another 400 meters all out. Nearly died approaching the end of the last one. For reference, I recently did a couple 1600 intervals and topped out at 151, again dying as I crossed the line. I'm sure that I'm relatively low HR because when I use the MAF # I find myself running at marathon pace. That's when, at the suggestion of those on this thread, I turned to Hadd

Maybe I'm not really chasing the elusive theoretical max. Hadd used this test and based his training numbers off that test, so maybe theoretical max doesn't matter. Like I said, I'm just looking for the best training pace possible to safely add mileage and increase my lactate threshold and stamina.

Thank you for the feedback, by the way. I'm learning a lot here.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-15-2006 08:01 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
The infamous bonk has nothing to do with doing something harder
than you're used to. It has mostly to do with running out of glycogen
stores. I must admit that there's something mysterious about some
aspects of this, but the key is that you're training yourself to get
"fast" (always a relative term, of course) when using mostly fat
for fuel. Spending a lot of time running at low heart rates (and hence
at low respiratory quotients, where mostly fat is used for fuel) is
what does this. The part that is still a bit mysterious to me is that
also at higher heart rates, you're still using a large percentage of
fat for fuel (not so much as at the lower heart rates), even if you
really spend no time running at them. I'll go on a
limb here and say that hitting the wall is primarily an artifact of
(1) very weak aerobic fitness or (2) moderately weak aerobic fitness
and/or poor pacing and/or very poor nutrition. So here's my example:
Prior to this type of training, I hit the wall in many to most 20 mile
training runs and depended on several gels just to get me through,
even in cool weather. After this type of training, I've run some marathons
with no gels or carb intake whatsoever, several with carb intake in the
way of gatorade only (no gels), and the rest with one gel and/or
gatorade. In my last marathon, my target was 3:15:59 (what I needed
for BQ). I took one gel at mile 15, just in case I needed it. My first
six miles, I believe, were around 6:50 and change (only because my
heart rate was low). I just let my pace slow moderately while my
heart rate climbed. Most of the last several miles were in the high
7s, with one just over 8 (with the largest hill) and I finished with a
smile, over 3 minutes faster than my goal and 7 minutes faster than
my previous PR from a month and a half earlier.

---

Wow - what amazing progress! It all sounds very mysterious to me as well as it just seems outside of a lot of what I have read. Of course, the idea is base building though, so I guess it could fit well with all the other "knowledge" out there.

Frankly, my goals are to not only finish my next marathon(s) with improved times, but also, of course, with big smile as I was in my first. I guess I need to get a heart rate monitor and dig into this a bit more....

Any recommendations on a good heart rate monitor?

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posted Jun-15-2006 09:07 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by StealthRunner:
This caught my eye. This looks like a 26.2 mile tempo run followed by six weeks of MAF training to recover stronger for a goal marathon. This would kill me but it sure worked for you. Did you do your usual 20 mi MAF run the day before the BQ? You are way too awesome.

Good luck with your 100miler.

Cathy

---

It seems as though running a lot of marathons is helpful for
improvement (as long as you don't beat yourself up trying!)
I did not do a 20 miler the day before my BQ. I actually did
a 25 mile bike ride, followed by an 8 mile run. I guess you would
call that a taper for me! I'd still contend it's nothing special about
me - just an acclimation to doing a fair amount of volume and keeping
all of my training below MAF.

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posted Jun-15-2006 09:14 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runninlaw:
Wow - what amazing progress! It all sounds very mysterious to me as well as it just seems outside of a lot of what I have read. Of course, the idea is base building though, so I guess it could fit well with all the other "knowledge" out there.

Frankly, my goals are to not only finish my next marathon(s) with improved times, but also, of course, with big smile as I was in my first. I guess I need to get a heart rate monitor and dig into this a bit more....

Any recommendations on a good heart rate monitor?

---

Finishing with a smile is the best thing out of all this. It's a new
experience. As far as the HR monitor goes, well, there are a million
good answers to that one! I think the best would a forerunner 305
with integrated GPS and HRM. I like my Nike triax CV8 because I
paid < $100 and it records 50 splits with avg HR per split.

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posted Jun-15-2006 09:50 AM            

I don't want any of my fellow Maffers getting a stress fracture due to loss of calcium. Jesse, this doesn't pertain to you. I know that you drink gallons of chocolate milk after you work-outs!

Stealth

[This message has been edited by StealthRunner (edited Jun-15-2006).]

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posted Jun-15-2006 12:44 PM               

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posted Jun-15-2006 02:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by roy c:
I went to start my MAFF training today, but the HR monitor began playing up, it went from 132 beats a minute up to half a mile, then 40bpm and then zero, so the MAFF training stopped for the day. I tried putting water on the contacts which worked for the first half mile.
Roy

---

Try using soap on the leads for your HR monitor. I just slather on a layer of Lever 2000 or similar soap and then wet it. I find that I have good contact 95% of the time and have had no problems in runs up to 3 hours in length.

I also (after reading a post from Jesse) have ordered some BUH BUMP .

Stick with the HR monitor. It makes training much more enjoyable IMHO.

------------------
http://onyeije-atl-marathon.blogspot.com/

[This message has been edited by onyeije (edited Jun-15-2006).]

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posted Jun-15-2006 04:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by roy c:
I went to start my MAFF training today, but the HR monitor began playing up, it went from 132 beats a minute up to half a mile, then 40bpm and then zero, so the MAFF training stopped for the day. I tried putting water on the contacts which worked for the first half mile.
Roy

---

One other thing- the strap may not be tight enough. Also, were you near any high power lines?

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posted Jun-15-2006 11:37 PM            

I have a few questions. Some of these questions may have been asked before but this site does not allow searches so I will have to ask again.

1. How long after starting low heart rate training did you run your 1st road race of any distiance and how many miles/wk were you up to by then?

2. I noticed from reading your logs that you would sometimes do training runs allowing your heart rate go above your MAF rate for whatever reason. At what point did you decide that this was ok without messing up your progress?

3. Is there a low hear rate web site w/ forum? If not, would anyone be interested in starting one? I would start one if I knew how. IT would be nice to see organized post of different topics related to low heart rate training.

Thanks for your reply and Thank you jesse for your didication to this thread and your training and well organized training log.

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posted Jun-16-2006 06:38 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by 10smom62:
Hi Jesse

I have a few questions. Some of these questions may have been asked before but this site does not allow searches so I will have to ask again.

1. How long after starting low heart rate training did you run your 1st road race of any distiance and how many miles/wk were you up to by then?

2. I noticed from reading your logs that you would sometimes do training runs allowing your heart rate go above your MAF rate for whatever reason. At what point did you decide that this was ok without messing up your progress?

3. Is there a low hear rate web site w/ forum? If not, would anyone be interested in starting one? I would start one if I knew how. IT would be nice to see organized post of different topics related to low heart rate training.

Thanks for your reply and Thank you jesse for your didication to this thread and your training and well organized training log.

---

My first time doing something like this, I did it for 8 weeks and then
ran a one mile race. My pace at low HRs had improved by 1:30 or
so by then, but most importantly, my one mile race time went from
slower than 6, to 5:36. In training, the only times I let my HR go over
MAF were times when I had to run across the street, beat a traffic light,
or for a small percentage of time when the temperatures had suddenly
gotten hot (I would gave myself 1-2 week set back towards the end of
the runs, dedicating more to heat acclimiation than to MAF running).
I always tried to track when this had happened. There may have also
been a handful of times when I had run with a friend on travel or
something.
Even in these cases, my overall avg heart rate for the run would have
been under MAF, usually way under, and the time above would have
been no more than about 0.1-0.5%. This year, which brought about
my second "full round" of this type of basebuilding, I started after a
break, and after being sick for a few days, and then ran a marathon
after about 6 weeks of MAF training. There are no such forums on
heart rate training that I've seen anywhere.

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posted Jun-16-2006 07:17 AM            

1) Between miles should I recover to a certain HR or for a certain amount of time?

2) After completing the test I would like to do a MAX HR test. What would be the best way to do this after running the 5-mile MAF test?

Thanks!

------------------
PR your next marathon guaranteed!!
e-Gel

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posted Jun-16-2006 09:39 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
My first time doing something like this, I did it for 8 weeks and then
ran a one mile race. My pace at low HRs had improved by 1:30 or
so by then, but most importantly, my one mile race time went from
slower than 6, to 5:36. In training, the only times I let my HR go over
MAF were times when I had to run across the street, beat a traffic light,
or for a small percentage of time when the temperatures had suddenly
gotten hot (I would gave myself 1-2 week set back towards the end of
the runs, dedicating more to heat acclimiation than to MAF running).
I always tried to track when this had happened. There may have also
been a handful of times when I had run with a friend on travel or
something.
Even in these cases, my overall avg heart rate for the run would have
been under MAF, usually way under, and the time above would have
been no more than about 0.1-0.5%. This year, which brought about
my second "full round" of this type of basebuilding, I started after a
break, and after being sick for a few days, and then ran a marathon
after about 6 weeks of MAF training. There are no such forums on
heart rate training that I've seen anywhere.

---

One other thing I should add - although I generally use 139 as a target,
my MAF is really 149 (180-36+5), so I rarely even budge over it.

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posted Jun-16-2006 09:49 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kommish77:
OK, I am going to run a MAF test tomorrow. I have a couple of questions that I am sure were answered already in the previous million posts but I won't have time to go through them again before tomorrow.

1) Between miles should I recover to a certain HR or for a certain amount of time?

2) After completing the test I would like to do a MAX HR test. What would be the best way to do this after running the 5-mile MAF test?

Thanks!

---

Your heart rate should be low the entire time if you stay under
MAF, so there's no recovery required. For your second question,
I'll have to point you back through the thread, unfortunately, as
there are a few dozen recommendations you'll find, most of which
involve 400s and 800s on the track or hill intervals. It is good to
do it after an easy 5 miles.

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posted Jun-16-2006 02:31 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kommish77:
OK, I am going to run a MAF test tomorrow. I have a couple of questions that I am sure were answered already in the previous million posts but I won't have time to go through them again before tomorrow.

1) Between miles should I recover to a certain HR or for a certain amount of time?

2) After completing the test I would like to do a MAX HR test. What would be the best way to do this after running the 5-mile MAF test?

Thanks!

---

On #2, I just asked a similar question last week. Several folks suggested that you find a hill and do three repeats as hard as you can. I have been reading through a thread identified in leitnerj's "FAQ" section [Hadd's Appraoch to Distance Training] which says you should run an 800 meter full out, rest 2 minutes, and run a 400 meter full out. See http://www.ffh.us/cn/hadd.htm. So far as I can tell, there is no clear-cut answer. I'm partial to Hadd.

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