| Author |
Topic: Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen |
Sparrowface
Cool Runner |
 posted Jun-05-2006 11:26 AM
  
quote:
Originally posted by brittaH2O:
Maybe so...
Bottom line is that I love to run, and that's what I'm going to do. I guess since I'm not on a training schedule for a race, I was looking for some sort of other program to give me a goal. Unfortunately I wanted a "running" program, not one that makes you walk. I am gioing to look around for a maintenance program, but tweek it a little to ensure small improvements. Thanks again.
It only makes you walk if your aerobic system is underdeveloped. One way to figure out if the problem is really your aerobic system and not
the MAF is to figureout your max heart rate, then try a 70% max heart rate run. If you are still "walking" then it just means you are not fit, it doesn't mean this is not a "running program." Anybody who really know heart rate training will tell you that it exposes your aerobic fitness for what it is. It doesn't lie.
IP: Logged |
roy c
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 01:00 PM
My next race is Sunday 11 June and to tell you the truth I can't wait to start this training. I feel the race is almost a bit of an inconvience but hey whats another few days.
britta, if I was you I would really give this a try to build on your aerobic fitness, you will reap the rewards.
I have read enough of these threads and seen so much positive feedback to see it's the way to go.
Roy
IP: Logged |
onyeije
Member |
posted Jun-05-2006 02:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrowface:
Anybody who really know heart rate training will tell you that it exposes your aerobic fitness for what it is. It doesn't lie.
Truer words have never been spoken, my friend. I have been struggling with my 9-10 mile long runs at 87% MHR. By the 10th mile I am wasted, and for the rest of the day I'm sore, irritable, and not much fun to be around. I recently started using the Maffetone method, and as I said in previous posts I was shocked and saddened by how slow I had to run to maintain my MAF of 135. However, yesterday, I ran a 14 mile long run and felt fresh to the very end. I even went "off-program" and picked up the pace for the 14th mile to a pace that I had not achieved in any of my splits in my previous 9-10 mile long runs. Felt great afterwards and went for a (previously unthinkable) 6.5 mile MAF run this morning. Amazing. In the case of MAF, I'm learning that "slow and steady wins the race". I figure, it took me years do destroy the natural gift for long distance running that I was born with and I'll have to be content to allow time to build up my aerobic base once again. ------------------
http://onyeije-atl-marathon.blogspot.com/
IP: Logged |
aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 02:57 PM
Britta,I'm not going to beg you to try MAF, but I must agree with others. Nobody just has a "fast heart rate". That is a sign of poor aerobic fitness. People who need to walk in order to stay at their prescribed HR need this type of training more than anybody. If longer distance runs aren't your eventual goal, MAF may not be for you. If they are, this is absolutely worth the experiment. It may not help you...or it may allow you to do things you never thought possible in running. If you haven't read through Jesse's story, take time to do so. He has completely transformed his running career..as have many others. Give it a try, if it doesn't work you'll still be 27 years old and have a lifetime of running ahead. ------------------
My Profile
IP: Logged |
Mike Behnke
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 05:27 PM
Thanks Jesse for the response to my last question. Here's a more simple question: I have never worn my HR monitor in a race but plan on it during my marathon on July 30. What do you need to do about chafing? Just put lots of vaseline/bodyglide under the strap and monitor? It hasen't been an issue on my 20 mile runs so maybe nothing to worry about but just curious what you guys do?
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 06:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Behnke:
Thanks Jesse for the response to my last question. Here's a more simple question: I have never worn my HR monitor in a race but plan on it during my marathon on July 30. What do you need to do about chafing? Just put lots of vaseline/bodyglide under the strap and monitor? It hasen't been an issue on my 20 mile runs so maybe nothing to worry about but just curious what you guys do?
Aside from all the marathons, I've also worn it in 3 50 mile races and
two 50ks, (one of the 50 milers lasted 10:30 hours!) and I haven't
had chafing, but very mild irritation once or twice. I use buh-bump HR monitor
cream, which is somewhat lubricating and before I long race I do
swipe the body glide across my lower chest, which is sufficient.
I haven't bothered with the strap in the back, but I would guess that
if you really wanted to be safe, you'd have someone glide that for you,
just in case your biomechanics causes more motion back there. ------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 06:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrowface:
It only makes you walk if your aerobic system is underdeveloped. One way to figure out if the problem is really your aerobic system and not
the MAF is to figureout your max heart rate, then try a 70% max heart rate run. If you are still "walking" then it just means you are not fit, it doesn't mean this is not a "running program." Anybody who really know heart rate training will tell you that it exposes your aerobic fitness for what it is. It doesn't lie.
Indeed. I probably shouldn't have it as far down as FAQ #43!
Nonetheless, one needs a lot of patience and motivation to stick
with this kind of stuff!
------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
kcy1998
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 08:49 PM
Jesse,
I ran a 10K this past weekend and finished with a 48:18. My PB is 45:49 back in 2005. I figure that only using MAF earned me the 48:18 and I am happy with it. I have decided to go with Daniels Plan A and start it in the middle of June. I figure that if I stick with it for a while and I seem to be loosing the aerobic base then I can go back to just doing MAF. Daniels has two quality work outs a week. These two workouts will be the only miles not done at MAF.
As you can tell by the link below I am having success with MAF. I do believe that I need to mix it up. After reading several threads it seems as if Jimmy and others have had greater success by mixing in some non MAF runs. I do believe that with all of you swimming and biking you are getting the same mixture. Without MAF I do not believe that I could be running so many miles per week. MAF has been real positive. I remember hopping on the TM for the first time and trying to MAF. It was AWFUL! It does pay off.
Thanks, kcy------------------
My Running Page
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 09:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
I ran a 10K this past weekend and finished with a 48:18. My PB is 45:49 back in 2005. I figure that only using MAF earned me the 48:18 and I am happy with it. I have decided to go with Daniels Plan A and start it in the middle of June. I figure that if I stick with it for a while and I seem to be loosing the aerobic base then I can go back to just doing MAF. Daniels has two quality work outs a week. These two workouts will be the only miles not done at MAF.
As you can tell by the link below I am having success with MAF. I do believe that I need to mix it up. After reading several threads it seems as if Jimmy and others have had greater success by mixing in some non MAF runs. I do believe that with all of you swimming and biking you are getting the same mixture. Without MAF I do not believe that I could be running so many miles per week. MAF has been real positive. I remember hopping on the TM for the first time and trying to MAF. It was AWFUL! It does pay off.
Thanks, kcy
Sounds good and sounds like the right approach. Certainly MAF
running should be a phase (for some it may be much longer than
others) out of a big picture of periodization (adding in more aggressive
runs at the right time). It's likely that you have identified that right
time. You may find that when you're ready to rebuild the base next
year, the base building will take you to the next level.
------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
StealthRunner
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 11:14 PM
Hello everyone! I'm back again as a full time Maffer! I ran the San Diego Rock n Roll Marathon on Sunday and PRed by six minutes. Last December I ran Las Vegas which was a much easier course, so I am happy with the results. My old hamstring injury flared up on me starting at around mile 10. By mile twenty it had become quite painful, but I was determined to finish. Yesterday I never wanted to run that marathon again. Today I realized how much fun it was (minus my stupid hamstring) and am ready to take on that beast again. So, now it's time to get back at MAF full time with some cross training thrown in. I got my old mountain bike out of moth balls and cleaned it up.. I think it has been a good 15 years since I've been on it. The RnR proved to me that I'm going in the right direction, but I still need a lot more work.Happy Maffing,
Cathy
IP: Logged |
Cashmason
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2006 01:33 AM
Mike,I have a Garmin 301. The buckle on the back of it slightly irritates my back. I took my g/f nail file to it and sanded it down, and also wrapped 2 bandaids around the buckle. It didn't bother me at all during yesterday's marathon. Wish I could say the same thing about the compression shorts I wore. Used the same shorts for a dozen long training runs, never a problem. They are wicking material. Yesterday, the seams rubbed me raw in all the wrong places.
IP: Logged |
yanelh
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2006 05:24 AM
Hey, all.I've been using HR training for around a month now to help me increase milage without injury, and it's been working great for me. I've been incorporating some trail runs into my routine, and have found that my HR jumps ALL OVER the place when I'm doing hills. I can see I've got a hill ahead, slow down to a walk, HR still goes through the roof, I stop, wait for it to come back down, it's almost back down to range, I start walking again, and two seconds later it's beeping at me because I'm BELOW range this time. I keep walking, and it shoots back above range again. Up, down, up, down, the thing doesn't want to stay in range! ARGH! Yes, these are some nice hills. <G> My question is: does it get easier with time or with experience to keep your HR in range when you've got MAJOR hills? Maybe I should just stick to easier trails until I get in better condition... Or is the extreme up/down thing just a reflection of the extreme up/down of the terrain and if I want to go on that trail I'm just going to have to deal with it no matter what condition I get in... Thoughts, anyone? Janell
IP: Logged |
r1girl
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2006 07:54 AM
quote:
My question is: does it get easier with time or with experience to keep your HR in range when you've got MAJOR hills? Maybe I should just stick to easier trails until I get in better condition... Or is the extreme up/down thing just a reflection of the extreme up/down of the terrain and if I want to go on that trail I'm just going to have to deal with it no matter what condition I get in...Thoughts, anyone? Janell[/B]
This is my strategy and I am a newbie to MAF. I am about in my second week and when I first started my heart rate was all over the place and I couldn't control it, mainly because I felt I was going too slow so when I would speed up my heart rate would go sky high. Well already I am seeing results with MAF the main one being I love running again. I am waking up in the mornings looking forward to running instead of treading it. Depending on hills my heart rate would go up and of course with extreme hills your heart rate goes higher. One strategy is to try to run routes and trails that don't have allot of hills (which is hard in PA). Now you have got to understand where I am coming from. I am a crazy athletic woman who will search out the steepest most challenging hills and run them for the sake of torturing myself. So for a while now I am going to curb this obsession and try to run normal hills. I have also notice that I am starting to be able to lower the heart rate on smaller hills, but medium hills the heart rate climbs. What I am doing is going off the book and letting my heart rate climb but not to the extreme beat that it was before. For instance my MAF is 134. For medium hill I tell myself hang around 145bpm. For long, steep hills 155bpm. And for crazy women hills I'm really trying 163. Now this plan would not follow MAF strictly but usually a medium hill for me would be 165 which is 20 heart beat difference. Again I am trying to avoid crazy hills for awhile, because I like where this is all going and I am willing to give it a try. Good Luck and hang in there.
IP: Logged |
StealthRunner
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2006 09:40 AM
Yanelh- First off, I would not worry about going below MAF. Set the low range on your HR monitor very low so it doesn't go off. It's bad enough to keep your HR low enough when you are trying to do hills! Since it seems that you enjoy the trail with the extreme hills, or you wouldn't be on it in the first place, I would walk them for right now. It will help build strength in you legs, and you will eventually be able to start running up them, a few feet more over time. It is, of course, more frustrating, but it will be worth it over time. You will be ready for some nasty, hilly marathons!Good luck with your training,
Cathy
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2006 06:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by StealthRunner:
Hello everyone! I'm back again as a full time Maffer! I ran the San Diego Rock n Roll Marathon on Sunday and PRed by six minutes. Last December I ran Las Vegas which was a much easier course, so I am happy with the results. My old hamstring injury flared up on me starting at around mile 10. By mile twenty it had become quite painful, but I was determined to finish. Yesterday I never wanted to run that marathon again. Today I realized how much fun it was (minus my stupid hamstring) and am ready to take on that beast again. So, now it's time to get back at MAF full time with some cross training thrown in. I got my old mountain bike out of moth balls and cleaned it up.. I think it has been a good 15 years since I've been on it. The RnR proved to me that I'm going in the right direction, but I still need a lot more work.Happy Maffing,
Cathy
congrats on the PR, Cathy and speedy recovery to you!
------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2006 07:10 PM
Indeed the hills do get easier and as Cathy said, turn off the
low range. Mark Allen's low end is defined as 80% of MAF.
If you actually get the low while doing this, then you don't
need to worry about your heart rate. ------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
yanelh
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2006 09:46 PM
Thanks, all.Like you said, I really do enjoy those trails. :-) A large part of it to me is being out there, the trees, the fresh air, the sunshine, the softer dirt, and the way the uneven trail keeps you alert... And no cars! I'll give it a few more months and see how it goes before worrying that I won't be able to do those hills. Maybe step-step-step-rest-rest-step-step-step-rest-rest might keep it at a steadier rate... I can always run the downhill (and level) parts! Janell
IP: Logged |
StealthRunner
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-07-2006 10:20 AM
Thanks Jesse.I do have a question for you. I have been trying to figure out my Polar distance monitor. Yes I wore it this time! I know it is not dead-on accurate, but it added on two miles for the marathon. There were thirty-seven turns on the RnR course! I wonder how much of the two mile add-on would be due to running the turns wide. With so many runners, it was impossible to run a perfect 26.2 mile course! I must say that it went crazy when I approached the Marine Corps Recruit Depot. My “pace” went dead, and my “HR” shot up to 230. Ha ha. My average HR for this marathon was 150 and hitting 170 at the finish with my nasty Stealth finish. I picked the pace up with a half mile to go, weaving around many runners to find a clearing for a strong finish. Hit Stealth mode the last .2 miles with nobody being able to catch me. Not bad for an old lady!!! I am planning on hitting a treadmill this Friday or Saturday to do a MAF test. The results should be interesting. Ugh. At least I should see some major progress in a month. I also need to address my hamstring issue which I believe now is not from my old injury, but something new. I’m quite sure that I have Piriformis Syndrome on both sides. I should be able to clear it up with massage, stretching and of course, a good strengthening program. I will probably hit the pool sometime today. Happy Maffing, Cathy
IP: Logged |
Cashmason
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-07-2006 11:35 AM
Cathy, Interesting, my girlfriend's Garmin also picked up the race as being an extra 2 miles. I know she doesn't run the shortest line but that is crazy. Mine Garmin read 26.2 and Motionbased had it at 26.77 miles. That is normal for me, I normally run an extra half mile or so because I don't run the most direct route. Did not get into the NYC marathon via lottery, so Training for Portland now. Odd thing happened to my heart rate in San Diego. I had thought my max HR was 187, but I got max of 192 on 5 separate miles in San Diego. San Diego was much hotter and more humid than I have run in before though. But the max readings were in the early to middle part of the race, when I was going at normal not fast pace, and it wasn't hot yet. But there were some hills, and the stress of trying to get around Team in Training folks who were walking shoulder to shoulder from one edge of the road to another. Yes we got to the start line 15 minutes late, even though we left an hour early and were staying 5 miles from the start. The traffic control was terrible. Guess my new max is 192. Funny never ever felt like my heart was racing during the marathon.
IP: Logged |
StealthRunner
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-07-2006 01:28 PM
Cashmason,Thanks for the reply. With all those turns I agree with you that it would be possible to add-on an additional ½ mile, or a bit more. In training, I ran my long runs late morning to early afternoon wearing a running jacket, so the heat didn’t bother me. The humidity was another thing. I’m used to the dry heat. But, we were so lucky that it was overcast! I too had issues with people walking three to four across. I don’t mind the walking, but I wish people would be more considerate with the other runners. I just love the ones who stop dead in front of you. I even had some idiot on a bike ride right in front of me. Moron, I almost ran right into him. I had to stop dead in my tracks. It must have been a sight to see, me putting on the brakes with my arms waving trying to keep from going over. My husband drove me to the airport parking lot 2 hrs before the start of the race. That plan worked out great since I had plenty of time to take the shuttle to the start and use the port-a-potty. Unfortunately I also had stomach issues, but I managed to finish the race without a problem, thank goodness. Right now I’m looking foreword to get back into my MAF training, and I am considering running the half marathon in Las Vegas this December. I really want to work on my aerobic conditioning and get on a good strength training program before I run another full. You can bet on me being at the RnR again next year regardless of all of the above! Good luck with Portland, Cathy
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-07-2006 02:02 PM
I have also experienced much higher than 26.2 in several marathons.
In fact, in a race like Marine Corps (probably just like RnR), there are
so many people who improperly line up in the start and walk at the
beginning, that you constantly have to run around them. Unless
you're on an Olympic qualifying course (where the measurement
line is actually marked), you can expect to run long, most every
race. Also, given that the polar is an accelerometer based device,
some people may see significant errors in a course with a lot of
turns or uneven terrain, just as GPS may not do well if there is
heavy tree cover. ------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-08-2006 07:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by StealthRunner:
I have been trying to figure out my Polar distance monitor. Yes I wore it this time! I know it is not dead-on accurate, but it added on two miles for the marathon. There were thirty-seven turns on the RnR course! I wonder how much of the two mile add-on would be due to running the turns wide. With so many runners, it was impossible to run a perfect 26.2 mile course!
Have you calibrated your foot pod? I have a Suunto T6 and find it to be quite accurate, but you have to calibrate it since different shoes, strides, etc. produce different accelerations. You calibrate it by running 1200-1600 meters on a track and then telling the watch what distance you ran. It comes up with a fudge factor based on that. I've seen mine as high as 7% (1.070), so that could result in the size of error you're seeing. Some people see a variation in calibration factor with pace of 1% or so (since their gait changes with pace). To get the very best results you'd run on the track at the pace you plan to run at. For a marathon, calibrate at marathon pace. I much prefer the foot pod to the forerunner 201 I used to use - no signal loss, no runaway tracks on turns, reproducible results, good instantaneous pace, and I believe it's more accurate.
IP: Logged |
geargal
Member |
posted Jun-08-2006 10:23 AM
Another beginning MAF question. I have been running consistently for the past 3 years. I have been averaging 30 miles per week. Most of my runs are usually completed at 75-85% of my MHR. I run between 9-10 minute miles. My longest run has been around 12 miles. 12 miles is the point at which I hit my wall. Obviously my aerobic system is underdeveloped. I have never participated in any races. My main goal at this point is to build endurance. I am contemplating running my first marathon a year from now. My questions are, when starting the MAF program what is the minimum time I should spend each week running to gain benefit from MAF type training? Lately I have been running for time not distance 5x week. Is it possible to build my aerobic system from runs under and 1 hour? Should I shoot to do 1-2 hours of running each time I run? Thanks for any input.
IP: Logged |
cfkid
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-08-2006 08:44 PM
I have just recently started HRT ala Maffetone. I posted a question a few weeks ago regarding my MAF calculation, and figuring in a chronic illness (I have Cystic Fibrosis). I have decided to go with a minus 5 adjustment. I figure that I have always had CF, and although it is a chronic illness, my body doesn't know life any other way. So, my MAF is 140 BPM (I'm 35). My question is, how strict do I need to be about not going over my MAF? I've noticed that at a whopping 4 MPH my HR is right at about 138-140, but will sometimes jump to 144'ish for 30 seconds or so. Is this ok, or do I need to immediately walk/slowdown (from 4 mph??) to get my HR down? As a side note, this is very frustrating as I know I can run faster. But, I'm determined to stick with it. Thanks for any replies,
CfKid
IP: Logged |
aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-08-2006 09:22 PM
Try to stick as close to the number as you can. In doing so, you'll frequently go over. You'll find that the +/- in HR is a gradual process. When you go over, don't immediately slow to a walk. Just the slightest adjustment will gradually take you back down to your target level. It takes a little time to learn your personal signs, but once you get there it's really neat being able to control your heart so easily.FYI-You could also start at a rate below your prescribed MAF. I was concerned about pushing too close to my aerobic max so I scaled back. I'm currently doing all of my training at 20 beats below what MAF would prescribe for me, but I also have a low max HR. ------------------
My Profile
IP: Logged |
 |
