| Author |
Topic: Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen |
brittaH2O
Cool Runner |
 posted Jun-02-2006 08:42 PM
   
I am very-much trying to stay in a decent HR zone (60-70%) but I am utterly convinced that I do not fall into the "normal, average person" category. I am 27F and run 16-20 mpw. I do a variety of other activities throughout the week as well. I am very healthy and fit....but I have a FAST HEART RATE! Period. The second I start to move, my heartrate jumps way up past 100. My resting HR is 54. Within 2 minutes after running it drops 30-35 bpm. But when my monitor reads 180, I feel very comfortable and able to talk. I do not feel as though I am exerting myself much at all. I'm getting very frustrated and wonder if this program just doesn't apply to me.No program can apply to every single runner. I truly believe I'm the odd (wo)man out ------------------
My This is ME
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yvtad
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-02-2006 08:51 PM
I'm with you.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-02-2006 08:55 PM
Indeed there are many whose pace was brought to such a ridiculously
slow (at least compared to their normal running) pace that it's just not
conceivable to use such an approach. There's no doubt that if you don't
have a reason to do this, then why do it? I actually was very similar
to you when I first tried low HR training - my typical running heart rate
was 170-180, 190s towards the end of a long run. This about comparable
to you since I was about 7 years older (at the time) than you are now.
At 16-20 miles a week, it really doesn't matter. And you're young, so
your body can handle more stress. I was (trying to)
run marathons at the time and half the time I could barely finish my
long runs, so for me, I had no choice. If you don't have injuries or
pains, overtraining symptoms, etc., and you can race much faster than
you train, then why would you mess with what you're doing? I certainly
wouldn't. I think many of the people that jump into this stuff do it
because either there's no choice or they are training harder and harder
and seeing no improvement. ------------------
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brittaH2O
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-02-2006 09:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
There's no doubt that if you don't
have a reason to do this, then why do it?
...so for me, I had no choice. If you don't have injuries or
pains, overtraining symptoms, etc., and you can race much faster than
you train, then why would you mess with what you're doing? I certainlywouldn't. I think many of the people that jump into this stuff do it because either there's no choice or they are training harder and harder and seeing no improvement.
Thank you. This makes sense. I think I will just keep running the pace I have been. When I start running more mpw or get the urge to train for a HM, then maybe I'll give it another whirl...and I know where to come for advice when I do 
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-02-2006 09:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by brittaH2O:
Thank you. This makes sense. I think I will just keep running the pace I have been. When I start running more mpw or get the urge to train for a HM, then maybe I'll give it another whirl...and I know where to come for advice when I do
Rule 1: have fun
Rule 2: when it's not fun anymore, find a way to make it fun.
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Sparrowface
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-03-2006 12:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by brittaH2O:
I am very-much trying to stay in a decent HR zone (60-70%) but I am utterly convinced that I do not fall into the "normal, average person" category. I am 27F and run 16-20 mpw. I do a variety of other activities throughout the week as well. I am very healthy and fit....but I have a FAST HEART RATE! Period. The second I start to move, my heartrate jumps way up past 100. My resting HR is 54. Within 2 minutes after running it drops 30-35 bpm. But when my monitor reads 180, I feel very comfortable and able to talk. I do not feel as though I am exerting myself much at all. I'm getting very frustrated and wonder if this program just doesn't apply to me.No program can apply to every single runner. I truly believe I'm the odd (wo)man out
Be honest. I don't think you want it to apply. It doesn't have to. Have fun doing what you are doing. Live your life the way you want.
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brittaH2O
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-03-2006 12:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrowface:
Be honest. I don't think you want it to apply. It doesn't have to. Have fun doing what you are doing. Live your life the way you want.
Maybe so...
Bottom line is that I love to run, and that's what I'm going to do. I guess since I'm not on a training schedule for a race, I was looking for some sort of other program to give me a goal. Unfortunately I wanted a "running" program, not one that makes you walk. I am gioing to look around for a maintenance program, but tweek it a little to ensure small improvements. Thanks again. ------------------
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-03-2006 02:32 PM
I did my second maffetone test today. Thankfully, we had a reprieve from the warm weather this morning (two days ago I did a nice 13:45 pace when it was 90 degrees). Here are the results for today's test and the first one (three weeks ago) May 13 June 3
temp 60F ~68F
warmup 21:04/131 22:49/131
Mile 1. 9:18/145 9:59/144
Mile 2. 9:32/146 10:02/144
Mile 3. 9:35/145 9:57/145
Mile 4. 9:45/145 9:59/145
Mile 5. 9:52/146 10:05/145 The lower pace was disappointing, but it's hard to say I regressed since the temps are different. Instead I'll just take the lack of falloff from Mile 1 to 5 as a positive sign. The lack of falloff might have been somewhat aided by the dropping temperature, however. A cold front actually moved in during my run and according to wunderground.com it was 70 degrees/93% humidity at the start and 65/81% at the end. By the way, Jesse, I heard the podcast. Apparently we have a lot in common: DC area, PhD (mine's in chemistry), Ga Tech (I got my BS there), 5' 10'' and 168 pounds. Now if I can just drop about an hour off my marathon time...
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kcy1998
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-03-2006 10:40 PM
Jesse,
I just listened to your interview. You did a GREAT job. I do apprecriate all of the help that you have provided to everyone on these boards.
I still have not decided what to do about a plan for my fall marathon. Since I am now at a 10:00 minute pace and keeping my HR at MAF I am leaning toward another month of MAF and then make a decision. I will keep everyone informed.
Once again good job on the interview.
kcy------------------
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-03-2006 11:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gregw:
I did my second maffetone test today. Thankfully, we had a reprieve from the warm weather this morning (two days ago I did a nice 13:45 pace when it was 90 degrees). Here are the results for today's test and the first one (three weeks ago) May 13 June 3
temp 60F ~68F
warmup 21:04/131 22:49/131
Mile 1. 9:18/145 9:59/144
Mile 2. 9:32/146 10:02/144
Mile 3. 9:35/145 9:57/145
Mile 4. 9:45/145 9:59/145
Mile 5. 9:52/146 10:05/145 The lower pace was disappointing, but it's hard to say I regressed since the temps are different. Instead I'll just take the lack of falloff from Mile 1 to 5 as a positive sign. The lack of falloff might have been somewhat aided by the dropping temperature, however. A cold front actually moved in during my run and according to wunderground.com it was 70 degrees/93% humidity at the start and 65/81% at the end. By the way, Jesse, I heard the podcast. Apparently we have a lot in common: DC area, PhD (mine's in chemistry), Ga Tech (I got my BS there), 5' 10'' and 168 pounds. Now if I can just drop about an hour off my marathon time...
that is quite a bit in common! You'll drop the hour - it'll get there.
It is tough to compare even runs in 65 degrees outside to
the 50 degree runs of several weeks ago. anything over 60 and
it all starts to degrade, at least until you acclimatize.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-03-2006 11:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
I just listened to your interview. You did a GREAT job. I do apprecriate all of the help that you have provided to everyone on these boards.
I still have not decided what to do about a plan for my fall marathon. Since I am now at a 10:00 minute pace and keeping my HR at MAF I am leaning toward another month of MAF and then make a decision. I will keep everyone informed.
Once again good job on the interview.
kcy
thanks very much - indeed you will find the right thing to do.
You won't "damage" anything by running a couple of miles at
the end of your long runs at a faster pace, so that's the first
place I would start. ------------------
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r1girl
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-04-2006 01:20 PM
Ok, I felt very comfortable at 160-170 bpm.I am a 46F. The only thing was I felt hatred for running. After I wrote this forum, a couple people thought my heart rate was high.Well for a year I have felt I have been struggling through running and again I didn't finish my last marathon because I just didn't want to run anymore. Nothing was wrong just didn't have the desire. I have exhausted all avenues and then I read this thread and said I will try it. I have done this for a week and a half now and have also done a half a## job of following the program, but guess what? I am already seeing incredible results mostly mentally but also in heart rate. I am keeping pace at 134 and at first I couldn't keep it under control I wanted to go faster because I felt so slow.Well finally the heart rate is steady. But the biggest change is that I am enjoying running again, which is remarkable. I think this is a great plan for the overtrained people. I timed my first mile the first time I did this at 14.38 which was disgusting. I am a 10 minute miler in long runs and 8 min in short runs. This morning I timed my mile again (same track) and it was 11:38 holding heartbeat at 134 amazing!!!! Also my resting heart rate is usually 60. I was sitting watching the news yesterday getting ready to run look down at my heartrate and it was 58. And that is sitting. I couldn't believe that. Bottom line I feel I have overworked my body and have stressed it out so much and I never face that until right know.
I really feel good about this and I am going to take this program more seriously because I am a believer now!!!
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-04-2006 01:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by r1girl:
Ok, I felt very comfortable at 160-170 bpm.I am a 46F. The only thing was I felt hatred for running. After I wrote this forum, a couple people thought my heart rate was high.Well for a year I have felt I have been struggling through running and again I didn't finish my last marathon because I just didn't want to run anymore. Nothing was wrong just didn't have the desire. I have exhausted all avenues and then I read this thread and said I will try it. I have done this for a week and a half now and have also done a half a## job of following the program, but guess what? I am already seeing incredible results mostly mentally but also in heart rate. I am keeping pace at 134 and at first I couldn't keep it under control I wanted to go faster because I felt so slow.Well finally the heart rate is steady. But the biggest change is that I am enjoying running again, which is remarkable. I think this is a great plan for the overtrained people. I timed my first mile the first time I did this at 14.38 which was disgusting. I am a 10 minute miler in long runs and 8 min in short runs. This morning I timed my mile again (same track) and it was 11:38 holding heartbeat at 134 amazing!!!! Also my resting heart rate is usually 60. I was sitting watching the news yesterday getting ready to run look down at my heartrate and it was 58. And that is sitting. I couldn't believe that. Bottom line I feel I have overworked my body and have stressed it out so much and I never face that until right know.
I really feel good about this and I am going to take this program more seriously because I am a believer now!!!
good for you! No doubt, you're in the category of "last resort -
try MAF" and whether you do it half-a$$ed or whole-a$$ed and
it solves some of you big problems and gets you running again,
that's all that matters - and you're seeing some progress to boot.
let us know how things go over time. ------------------
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Mike Behnke
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-04-2006 08:40 PM
For Lietnerj,Jwaverly, or others: I went out today and did a 12 miler with 6 miles in the middle at "supposedly" marathon pace. Here are the results and after I have a few questions: 10:47/127,10:17/130, 10:16/134, 10:04/137, 8:15/151, 8:15/153, 8:28/154, 8:28/156, 8:20/158, 8:22/159, 9:28/152, 9:50/143. I'm 40, Maff is 140. I do not know my max HR, just been using the Mark Allen formula. The weather was a bit warm(80F) and the course was hilly and I haven't done it in a while. I wanted to target around 8:30 pace for my marathon pace but as you see I went a little too fast 'cause of the hills. I got the 8:30 number from my recent time of 21:11 in a 5K and the McMillan calculator. I think when I read Jesse's latest marathon results that his HR was in the 157-168 range for the entire race! I guess I'm wandering if I am capable of sustaining those kind of HR's myself for the entire marathon on July 30(SanFrancisco)! When I'm around 158 bpm it feels fairly difficult, at least by mile 6 of my MP miles today. Can I really do a 3:30-3:40 marathon or do you think I need to dial it down and shoot for like an 8:50-9:00 pace? I'm at 50 mpw and have a 20 miler under my belt and should get a couple more no problem before a taper. Maybe a couple more of the MP runs and they will get a little easier. The run itself was not that taxing today just wandering if I can hold that pace for 26.2!
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-04-2006 08:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Behnke:
For Lietnerj,Jwaverly, or others: I went out today and did a 12 miler with 6 miles in the middle at "supposedly" marathon pace. Here are the results and after I have a few questions: 10:47/127,10:17/130, 10:16/134, 10:04/137, 8:15/151, 8:15/153, 8:28/154, 8:28/156, 8:20/158, 8:22/159, 9:28/152, 9:50/143. I'm 40, Maff is 140. I do not know my max HR, just been using the Mark Allen formula. The weather was a bit warm(80F) and the course was hilly and I haven't done it in a while. I wanted to target around 8:30 pace for my marathon pace but as you see I went a little too fast 'cause of the hills. I got the 8:30 number from my recent time of 21:11 in a 5K and the McMillan calculator. I think when I read Jesse's latest marathon results that his HR was in the 157-168 range for the entire race! I guess I'm wandering if I am capable of sustaining those kind of HR's myself for the entire marathon on July 30(SanFrancisco)! When I'm around 158 bpm it feels fairly difficult, at least by mile 6 of my MP miles today. Can I really do a 3:30-3:40 marathon or do you think I need to dial it down and shoot for like an 8:50-9:00 pace? I'm at 50 mpw and have a 20 miler under my belt and should get a couple more no problem before a taper. Maybe a couple more of the MP runs and they will get a little easier. The run itself was not that taxing today just wandering if I can hold that pace for 26.2!
Ok, a few things. First, don't compare what you can do in a race
environment to what you can do in a training environment (the
exception being that if you hit the wall in training at a given pace,
that ain't gonna change very much in a marathon). Next, you're
in warmer weather now and you're not used to it. It may take you
2-4 weeks of consistent warm weather running for any results to
be indicative. I see no reason why you can do it. And, by the way,
my *average* heart rate in my last marathon was 170, 31 beats
higher than my usual training heart rate. And I did absolutely no
speedwork, not even fast-finish long runs before (other than the
other races I did in the months before). My first mile was at
an avg heart rate of 154 and the rest were in the 160s, 170s, and
180s. And I still felt good at the end. I can't see we have the
full picture of whether you can do it or not, but I would say it's
highly likely. It took me several marathons to learn how to optimize
my marathon performance, but even my first marathon on significant
MAF training bore great results (23 minute PR).
Not knowing what your lactate threshold and max heart rate are,
I can't say for sure, but I would guess that you can sustain an
even higher heart rate for the marathon, especially if it's cool out.
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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Jun-04-2006).]
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crb81
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-04-2006 09:26 PM
I got the 8:30 number from my recent time of 21:11 in a 5K and the McMillan calculator. I think when I read Jesse's latest marathon results that his HR was in the 157-168 range for the entire race! I guess I'm wandering if I am capable of sustaining those kind of HR's myself for the entire marathon on July 30(SanFrancisco)! When I'm around 158 bpm it feels fairly difficult, at least by mile 6 of my MP miles today. Can I really do a 3:30-3:40 marathon or do you think I need to dial it down and shoot for like an 8:50-9:00 pace?I've wondered the same thing about myself. My marathon isn't until February but I've considered adding something that Hadd uses sometime in the fall. He talks about taking a mid-week ten miler and gradually increasing the HR you run it. Say you might target 145 for the HR. When you can consistently do this run without a decrease in pace and feel like you could repeat it then you raise the HR by five beats. This continues until you have built up to marathon pace. I might try this in the fall keeping the rest of my runs at MAF. Of course, if my MAF has dropped to near 8:00, my hoped for MP then I may change my mind. ------------------
Clay
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crb81
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-04-2006 09:46 PM
This brings up another HR question concerning the marathon. Mcmillan's calculator gives a pace. For someone wanting to target a HR how do you choose what that should be? Parker says to shoot for 75% of HRR. This would have me target 163. Hadd says an optimal effort for someone with HRmax over 193 would be to average 175-177 from miles 5-25. I believe he is probably speaking to someone in better shape than myself. My max is 204 and MAF is 133.
Jesse, how do you decide on 170 and what would you target for your ultras?------------------
Clay
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-04-2006 10:20 PM
Good question...I'm searching for the same answers. The only race I've worn the monitor was a HM where I averaged 159 for the race. According to Parker I should be running my 5K's at this HR. Of course this was prior to any HR training, so everything may change in the next several months. I'm guessing the only real answer you'll get is from your own experience as you continue to gain more experience training and racing with the monitor. Which reminds me of another Parker question. When he recommends 75% HR for the marathon distance, is this actual percentage of your max, or the Karvonen formula. At marathon pace there is a substantial difference. ------------------
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Noquickfix
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-04-2006 11:06 PM
Not saying that any of us would...but don't risk all your hard training on a pace calculator. Aharmer said it best - base your performance on your own experience. Do more long runs, and base your pace from those performances/experiences.------------------
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Cashmason
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 01:38 AM
All training and cross training since the first of the year at Maf pace or lower.Today, San Diego Rock and Roll Marathon. 20 degrees hotter and much hillier than my previous best marathon. Result: Personal Best by over 35 minutes. Seems like Maf is working for me.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 05:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by crb81:
This brings up another HR question concerning the marathon. Mcmillan's calculator gives a pace. For someone wanting to target a HR how do you choose what that should be? Parker says to shoot for 75% of HRR. This would have me target 163. Hadd says an optimal effort for someone with HRmax over 193 would be to average 175-177 from miles 5-25. I believe he is probably speaking to someone in better shape than myself. My max is 204 and MAF is 133.
Jesse, how do you decide on 170 and what would you target for your ultras?
I don't use a target heart rate and I don't really believe in them. I keep
in mind my knowledge of my vitals (my anaerobic threshold and my
max), I find a pace that's comfortably challenging, I keep track of the
heart rate, I try to stay around there, growing by a few beats by about
13 or 14 miles, then I start to bump it up very slowly. Your best bet
if you want to follow what I do is to look at my paces and heart rates
for my last few marathons as I have honed them a bit each time,
the last one being on 4/30. For 50 mile races, I come down from that
a bit and I don't bother with the "kicking it up" part.
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crb81
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 06:25 AM
Which reminds me of another Parker question. When he recommends 75% HR for the marathon distance, is this actual percentage of your max, or the Karvonen formula. At marathon pace there is a substantial differenceAharmer,
Parker uses heart rate reserve (Karvonen formula).
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 07:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by crb81:
This brings up another HR question concerning the marathon. Mcmillan's calculator gives a pace. For someone wanting to target a HR how do you choose what that should be? Parker says to shoot for 75% of HRR. This would have me target 163. Hadd says an optimal effort for someone with HRmax over 193 would be to average 175-177 from miles 5-25. I believe he is probably speaking to someone in better shape than myself. My max is 204 and MAF is 133.
Jesse, how do you decide on 170 and what would you target for your ultras?
I used heart rate successfully to pace for a marathon, but it was 8 weeks after I had run one previously with a HRM and I knew how to adjust. My heart rate ended up being 172 average for both, but I just allocated it a lot better in the second race (didn't go out to fast). In a 10-miler I ran two weeks later I averaged 181 bpm. As it turns out both the marathon and 10-miler heart rates right on what http://www.teamoregon.com/publications/wizard.php predicts for me. The pace prediction, however, is way off for the marathon, which is why I'm on this thread trying to get faster at lower bpm. I would bet that the calculator's relative heart rates for distances are reasonably accurate even if the calculator doesn't predict your heart rate directly. If you know say your average heart rate for a 10-miler you could multiply by the team oregon marathon bpm and divide by the team oregon 10-miler bpm as a guess. Note that you can't go out and try to average that in your first mile! I didn't have a split that averaged 172 until the 14th mile and my first was 154.
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Texasdude
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 08:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gregw:
Note that you can't go out and try to average that in your first mile! I didn't have a split that averaged 172 until the 14th mile and my first was 154.
That's a key point whether or not you use a HRM. Working it too hard at the beginning will cost you at the end. For me, I knocked another 54 seconds of my training PR for my 4-loop course. Using GregW's thesis, my runs are all negative split in the early morning. A lot of that has to do with the fact that I'm kinda of creaky at 5 a.m. since I don't warm up first. The main thing I can almost always count on is being a minute faster on my last loop when compared to my first loop. My first loops are getting faster as well w/ no pain or anything. Whereas I was running the loop in 13:4x with an average HR of 135, I'm now seeing 12:5x for the same HR. I allow the HR to crawl up from there. Times for the 4 loops this morning were: 12:57, 12:41, 12:20, 12:02 If I warmed up prior to going out to run, I doubt I would see such a negative split. It takes me a while to wake up and realize what I'm doing.
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Sparrowface
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2006 11:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by brittaH2O:
Maybe so...
Bottom line is that I love to run, and that's what I'm going to do. I guess since I'm not on a training schedule for a race, I was looking for some sort of other program to give me a goal. Unfortunately I wanted a "running" program, not one that makes you walk. I am gioing to look around for a maintenance program, but tweek it a little to ensure small improvements. Thanks again.
It only makes you walk if your aerobic system is underdeveloped. One way to figure out if the problem is really your aerobic system and not
the MAF is to figureout your max heart rate, then try a 70% max heart rate run. If you are still "walking" then it just means you are not fit, it doesn't mean this is not a "running program." Anybody who really know heart rate training will tell you that it exposes your aerobic fitness for what it is. It doesn't lie.
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