posted May-30-2006 07:45 AM            

I have read all your post and Q and A and I have a concern. I am a 44 year old female with asthma (that is under control) 50 lbs over weight (I have lost 15 using WW and will continue losing the rest) otherwise I am in good health. I have been running for just under 2 years.

Five weeks ago I started MAF'ing. I tossed my garmin and just conctrated on HR. My goal was to stay between 135-142. I have done this. I run between 25-30 miles a week, with a long run once a week of 10 mile. I have noticed improvements- On short runs I no longer have to walk and average 15:30 minute miles. On long runs my heart rate stays below 140 until about mile 7.5. Then I have to walk a little to bring in back down. The rest is run/walk. Plus I am not tired after any of my runs.

My question/concern is that I also cylce. I have kept my HR in the MAF zone until yesterday. I am training for a three day cycling ride. Yesterday I did a 65 mile HILLY ride. I was able to keep my HR below 142 with an occasional spike at the top of the hill until 4 hours into the ride. Then it became hard. After 5 and half hours I hade to take a stop every couple miles just to get my HR in the 130's. The last 30 minutes I kept it under 145 because I was in traffic and had to go soo slow. The event is in 10 days on a very hilly course. Day 1 is 70 miles, day 2 is 80 miles, and day 3 is 68 miles. I don't think I will be able to keep my HR between 135-142 during the afternoon of these days. Am I going to screw up everything I have gained?

cc

sorry for the long post

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posted May-30-2006 09:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by corland14:

Will a race per month interfere with Maffetone training? I'm running a fall marathon and want to continue to improve my aerobic system.

---

Maffetone would say that racing would interfere if you are still in the base building mode; Mark Allen would say that an occasional race is okay as long as you are not doing race-specific training.

I haven't raced yet, but that's due more to the lack of time than anything else. I might start doing a club 5K once/month just for the heck of it without any time goals or specific training. If the MAF tests continue to improve, there seems to be no reason to start pushing things before its time.

Heat: Several have pointed out how slow they've become with the heat. I was one of those as I saw my paces go from the 8:40s back to 9:30/mile. On some of my runs, I've even averaged over 10-minute miles, which means I need to start carrying water. However, I jumped on the t-mill for my MAF test and found that my pace had improved by 1-minute/mile and the first mile was 1:13 faster. The next day, I was back running 10-minute miles on a warm and humid 6-miler. I can live with that as long as the tests continue to improve.

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posted May-30-2006 11:38 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:

I don't think the heat's going to benefit your aerobic conditioning,
build mitochondria, or anything like that. However, the more you
run in heat, the more you acclimatize to it, so you will likely eventually
recoop most of your original pace. It's not clear that your low HR pace
will increase more when it cools down, other than the benefit that you
will obtain by putting in a lot of volume below MAF, whether it's hot
or cold. So, if you avoid the heat and you don't have any races in
heat, no big deal. Otherwise, you should try to run in it and acclimatize.
No doubt, it feels like you're pushed back to square one. Fortunately,
most fall marathons are in cooler weather, so you should be able to
get some good pace even if the heat's been slowing you down.

---

This is nuts but I ran 13ish miles Sunday and my pace was almost 11 min/mile in the heat & humidity. My normal MAF pace has been at or below 9/mile. Take a look at my log but this is the slowest pace for me in the last 6-7 months.

This stinks but I will do what I need to do. I think I walked 4-5 times on this run, moreso in the last 1/3 of the run when going uphill at all.

Welcome back, summer.

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posted May-30-2006 12:30 PM               

Saturday and Sunday I too was forced to run about 2 minutes/mile slower than average. Monday I did a treadmill test and found that all of my speed was back and then some. I improved my average mile pace by about 30 seconds from two weeks earlier.

No idea if the heat running helped my speed in cooler conditions, but it definitely didn't slow me down.

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posted May-30-2006 03:40 PM            

3 days will not destroy all your maf work. Do your event, recuperate, then do your recovery runs/rides at maf pace.

Good Luck.

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posted May-30-2006 05:24 PM               

As pace improves does effort stay the same? Right now my MAF pace of about 12 mpm is very easy. If my pace improves to 11 mpm or 10 mpm or faster will it still be as easy?

So far mileage is up, enjoyment of running is back, and I'm getting used to running in the dark so no one will see me.

[This message has been edited by passinthru (edited May-30-2006).]

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posted May-30-2006 05:56 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by corland14:

Will a race per month interfere with Maffetone training? I'm running a fall marathon and want to continue to improve my aerobic system. I read Jesse's FAQ's (again) and found the following

"Once you binge (i.e., start racing), you will lose a lot of what you built up and when you finish racing, you'll have to do it again, but some of it will stick with you from last time and you will be wiser this time around. The main difference is that you're dieting in preparation for a binge. Just make sure you save your binge for the races, not the training course."

I will continue to run ALL of my training runs around the races below Maff. If some of you more experienced runners think that I'll handicap my marathon (aerobic) training though, then I'll pass on the warm up races.

Thoughts?

[This message has been edited by corland14 (edited May-30-2006).]

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I think the answer can vary, depending on the individual and the history.
Nonetheless, I would suggest getting in at least 10-12 weeks of
exclusively low before starting to incorporate racing. Probably after
about 8 weeks, one per month won't be significant.

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posted May-30-2006 05:57 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by passinthru:

As pace improves does effort stay the same? Right now my MAF pace of about 12 mpm is very easy. If my pace improves to 11 mpm or 10 mpm or faster will it still be as easy?

[This message has been edited by passinthru (edited May-30-2006).]

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That's the idea... or so I've heard... I've not seen any of this "going faster" stuff myself yet... still being passed by the rocks and trees.

;-)

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posted May-30-2006 07:51 PM               

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posted May-30-2006 09:24 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by brooklyncc:
Hi,

I have read all your post and Q and A and I have a concern. I am a 44 year old female with asthma (that is under control) 50 lbs over weight (I have lost 15 using WW and will continue losing the rest) otherwise I am in good health. I have been running for just under 2 years.

Five weeks ago I started MAF'ing. I tossed my garmin and just conctrated on HR. My goal was to stay between 135-142. I have done this. I run between 25-30 miles a week, with a long run once a week of 10 mile. I have noticed improvements- On short runs I no longer have to walk and average 15:30 minute miles. On long runs my heart rate stays below 140 until about mile 7.5. Then I have to walk a little to bring in back down. The rest is run/walk. Plus I am not tired after any of my runs.

My question/concern is that I also cylce. I have kept my HR in the MAF zone until yesterday. I am training for a three day cycling ride. Yesterday I did a 65 mile HILLY ride. I was able to keep my HR below 142 with an occasional spike at the top of the hill until 4 hours into the ride. Then it became hard. After 5 and half hours I hade to take a stop every couple miles just to get my HR in the 130's. The last 30 minutes I kept it under 145 because I was in traffic and had to go soo slow. The event is in 10 days on a very hilly course. Day 1 is 70 miles, day 2 is 80 miles, and day 3 is 68 miles. I don't think I will be able to keep my HR between 135-142 during the afternoon of these days. Am I going to screw up everything I have gained?

cc

sorry for the long post

---

Just try to keep the largest possible percentage of your time
spent running and biking below MAF. You'll go over some times,
especially on the big hills (nothing you can do about it on the
bike other than zig zag, which ain't that safe) and in hot weather
that you're not used to. I had the same problem on hilly courses
for quite a while and I just kept as much as I could under MAF.
There's still one hill I ride regularly that I'm lucky to tackle at
MAF+10 or so, but my average over rides is usually about 5-10
under MAF.

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posted May-30-2006 09:33 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Serious Runner:

Heat: Several have pointed out how slow they've become with the heat. I was one of those as I saw my paces go from the 8:40s back to 9:30/mile. On some of my runs, I've even averaged over 10-minute miles, which means I need to start carrying water. However, I jumped on the t-mill for my MAF test and found that my pace had improved by 1-minute/mile and the first mile was 1:13 faster. The next day, I was back running 10-minute miles on a warm and humid 6-miler. I can live with that as long as the tests continue to improve.

---

Yeah, I just posted something like this - must've been in a different
thread. Last year for a period I was slogging at 2-3 minutes/mile
slower in the heavy heat, then jumped into a marathon in cool
weather and ran 4 min/mile faster than I had been running. Shock
to me, for sure. And now I'm back to 2-3 minutes/mile slower again
in this 85-90 deg heat. That's ok because I'm trying to get in as
much as possible for a half ironman I'm doing in two weeks that's
sure to be baking hot.

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posted May-31-2006 12:20 PM            

I'm going to try to compensate by walking a couple of my
runs . Technically I would run 6 times a week. I am going to run 4 times and the other ones that would technically be runs will be walks.

Actually my hatred for running is going away, using this program, even though I am not following it to a T. I had to laugh when I think someone said, They are running where no one can see them. That's what I am doing. I am a closet MAF person. Also when I run with other people if someone passes me or I see someone up ahead, I turn into a greyhound and they turn into a rabbit.
I CAN'T HELP MYSELF!!!

Funny story:
When I was cycling I was with my husband, and I will tell you I love cycling more than running "Sorry". I was trying to do my MAF thing and there goes my husband into the wild blue yonder!!!!!! Now you have to realize I kick butt on a bike and I have always outbiked my husband. So there he goes going , going, out of sight.....And I am trying to pep talk myself, that this will all be worth it at the end blah, blah, blah. Well out the window went MAF and I didn't even look down at my heart rate because now I had to double time to catch up to my husband which I did. That's when I said to myself. This is going to be harder than I thought......

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posted May-31-2006 01:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by r1girl:
Ok, first day at 6 miles that I ran within my MAF zone. I stayed pretty steady at 134. Truthfully I am going to do a half a## version of Maf. I really want to run a marathon in October, a marathon that kick may butt last year. Here's some of my problems.
1. In Maf, you may have to walk hills to stay steady, correct?
2.I do 1 hour of strenth training 3 times a week. This will have to stay.
3. I'll try this again but I could not get my heart rate to drop below 145 when cycling. It just seemed too pathetic!!!!!
4. 1 advance step aerobics - one hour- must stay.

I'm going to try to compensate by walking a couple of my
runs . Technically I would run 6 times a week. I am going to run 4 times and the other ones that would technically be runs will be walks.

---

1. I personally don't walk any of the hills I encounter. I try to slow some on the uphill to keep the HR from going nuts, but I still run. I just stay slow on the other side of the hill until my HR gets back into range. I use 150 as my upper limit; I just don't allow the HR to go over 153-154 on a hill.

2. Weightlifting. I lift 2-3 times/week, and I don't plan on stopping. I also do squats because I'm trying to build strength in the quads and glutes to overcome some niggly knee issues.

3. I can't help you there, but it sounds similar to what many runners sense. You may have to go real slow on the bike for a while, but you'll soon be back to a normal pace at lower HR.

4. I look at other activities this way: I'm not going to the Olympics, so if an activity can provide overall fitness, there's nothing wrong with it.

I wouldn't walk the other runs. The pace at MAF should feel easy enough that you can run each day. That will prepare you better for the marathon.

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posted May-31-2006 07:39 PM               

Good luck!

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posted May-31-2006 09:35 PM            

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posted May-31-2006 09:42 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noquickfix:
I'm putting together my marathon training schedule and I have some concerns about the frequency and duration of my long runs. I've read about long run recovery time taking 3 or 4 days or so. I'll define my long runs as 17 miles or three hours, depending on pace. I've been running 2:45 to 3:15 hour (18-20 miles) long runs for about the last five weeks, and feel fine to run the next day.
Since I'm running at MAF pace, 10:20 average pace, I'm assuming this is okay. I understand it's up to the individual and ability level, but I want to be sure I'm not doing something wrong. I try to run about 50-60 miles per week, so my long runs are not proportionate to my mileage. As I mentioned, I don't feel sore the next day, in fact, I'm about 90% after some food and a shower.
Would it be better to reduce the frequency of long runs and increase mid week mileage? Or, is this okay as long as my body is adjusting and in agreement?

---

Listen to your body. Everyone is individual. For the most part
(and, of course, there are exceptions), the 3-4 day recovery period
is for the typical runner who runs not just his long runs too hard, but
all runs too hard. Some running at MAF may require some extra
recovery after the first couple of 20 milers, but after that, most people
will probably be ready to go the next day.

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posted Jun-01-2006 10:34 AM            

First of all, let me join everyone else in thanking you for your insight and information regarding the MAF technique. I have read (and truly been astounded by) the stories on this board for the last few weeks.

Here is my story. Consider this one more data-point. I am a 40 year old, slow, overweight physician. Once upon a time I ran cross country in high school and did amazingly well based on pure talent with very little organized or scientific training. Fast forward 20 years and about 50 pounds. I decided to train and run a marathon. Began running 3-5 miles 3-4 times per week as fast as possible. Broke my ankle last spring and was diagnosed with osteoarthritis of the knees last fall. Quit running and thought I was done.

For some reason, I decided to give it another try this year. Read every running book I could get my hands on over last few months. My main concern now is avoiding injury. So I made a point of trying to increase my mileage and slow down my already pitifully slow pace. So far so good.

Here is my pre-MAF experience:
• March 2006: 17 runs, Average pace: 13:41 Average HR: 159 BPM (85% MHR) Total miles: 47.44
• April 2006: 15 runs, Average pace: 12:26 Average HR: 159 BPM (85% MHR) Total miles: 64.48
• May 2006: 15 runs, Average pace: 11:40 Average HR: 165 BPM (89% MHR) Total miles: 89.6

Pre-MAF long runs - 7-10 miles at 11:00 to 12:00 minutes per mile. If it seems like all my runs are “tempo runs” given my %MHR you are right. Slow feet, fast heart.

Here are my goals.
1. Slowly building a base in anticipation for a marathon some time in 2007.
2. Increased mileage and endurance without speed work
3. Staying injury-free.

I did my first MAF run this morning. 6.5 miles. PAINFULLY SLOW. Can you believe 14:55 minutes per mile !!! The MAF I’ve calculated is 135. 180-40-5 (due to previous injuries). Sure seems awfully slow.

Ordered the Maffetone book on Monday and it will be delivered in the mail today.

Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Once again, thank you Jesse, you are a true inspiration.

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[This message has been edited by onyeije (edited Jun-01-2006).]

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posted Jun-01-2006 12:23 PM            

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posted Jun-01-2006 05:29 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by onyeije:
Jesse:

First of all, let me join everyone else in thanking you for your insight and information regarding the MAF technique. I have read (and truly been astounded by) the stories on this board for the last few weeks.

Here is my story. Consider this one more data-point. I am a 40 year old, slow, overweight physician. Once upon a time I ran cross country in high school and did amazingly well based on pure talent with very little organized or scientific training. Fast forward 20 years and about 50 pounds. I decided to train and run a marathon. Began running 3-5 miles 3-4 times per week as fast as possible. Broke my ankle last spring and was diagnosed with osteoarthritis of the knees last fall. Quit running and thought I was done.

For some reason, I decided to give it another try this year. Read every running book I could get my hands on over last few months. My main concern now is avoiding injury. So I made a point of trying to increase my mileage and slow down my already pitifully slow pace. So far so good.

Here is my pre-MAF experience:
• March 2006: 17 runs, Average pace: 13:41 Average HR: 159 BPM (85% MHR) Total miles: 47.44
• April 2006: 15 runs, Average pace: 12:26 Average HR: 159 BPM (85% MHR) Total miles: 64.48
• May 2006: 15 runs, Average pace: 11:40 Average HR: 165 BPM (89% MHR) Total miles: 89.6

Pre-MAF long runs - 7-10 miles at 11:00 to 12:00 minutes per mile. If it seems like all my runs are “tempo runs” given my %MHR you are right. Slow feet, fast heart.

Here are my goals.
1. Slowly building a base in anticipation for a marathon some time in 2007.
2. Increased mileage and endurance without speed work
3. Staying injury-free.

I did my first MAF run this morning. 6.5 miles. PAINFULLY SLOW. Can you believe 14:55 minutes per mile !!! The MAF I’ve calculated is 135. 180-40-5 (due to previous injuries). Sure seems awfully slow.

Ordered the Maffetone book on Monday and it will be delivered in the mail today.

Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Once again, thank you Jesse, you are a true inspiration.

---

I appreciate the feedback! Oh, yes, very slow, indeed. My first
was about 17 min/mile! Certainly, I can walk faster. I found that
I had to stay on the treadmill when it was that slow. I hope that
doesn't last long for you, but most of all, I hope it helps you run
without injury or pain. Good luck.

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posted Jun-02-2006 08:12 AM            

http://www.enduranceradio.com/

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posted Jun-02-2006 09:14 AM            

Anyway, just wanted to encourage people to stick with it. As I've mentioned in the past, I run on a 1.44-mile loop in the mornings. My best for 3 loops was 37:41 and 51:52 for 4 laps. My best 1-lap time during any run was 12:10.

On Tuesday, I ran 4 laps in 52:21. I came back Thursday w/ 4 laps in 50:54 for a new PR for 4 laps. Not sure why I was nearly 1:30 faster just two days later, but it could have been fatigue on Tuesday or something.

This morning, I ran 3 laps in 36:46, or 8:30 pace. That's a 55-second PR for that course and puts me back running nearly as fast as I was prior to using the HRM. I just don't move that fast in the early morning runs. Two months ago, when I started this in much cooler weather, I was really close to the 10-minute/mile mark.

My final lap this morning was 11:44 or just under 8:09 pace. I never go that fast in the morning because I'm usually too stiff and sore. Today, it felt easy. Once you stick with it, it's nice to be running as fast as you were pre-MAF w/o feeling like you're going to die or puke all over the road.

Tomorrow, I might be back running 10-minute miles, but that's okay. I've noticed that training this way is like looking at a stock market graph. As long it's going up over the long haul, everything is good.

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posted Jun-02-2006 02:17 PM            

YOU ARE THE MAN!!

Just had the opportunity to listen to your interview on EnduranceRadio.com .

Highly recommended listening for anyone interested in MAF training.

And of course highly inspirational.

Kudos.

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posted Jun-02-2006 04:54 PM               

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posted Jun-02-2006 07:43 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by PerfesserR:
Jesse,
I assume that's you on the latest endurance radio podcast? I haven't listened yet, but am looking forward to it. Listen at:

http://www.enduranceradio.com/

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ah, yes, you caught me!

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posted Jun-02-2006 07:55 PM               

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