| Author |
Topic: Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen |
crb81
Cool Runner |
 posted May-26-2006 06:46 AM
   
MAF and my story
3 years ago I trained for a marathon. Hit 40mpw and runners knee. No running for 9 months. Last year, trained for marathon. Hit 40 mpw and PF. Took one month off and found this thread. Did MAF for 8 weeks and saw pace go from mid 12's to high 10's. I was asked to sponsor and run in a relay marathon, Beach to Bay(CC). We placed 4th in 2:51. Nothing on horizon until HM in October so going completely MAF. Hoping for first marathon at Austin in February. I'm 47, 170lbs, and currently running 35-40 mpw. Started this week at HR133 and below. My HRmax is 204. This is my first MAF test results.
Mile 1 HR 132 9:47
2 132 10:04
3 133 10:15
4 133 10:24
5 133 10:41
I had less than one mile warmup and this is reflected in the drift. I'll repeat test in 3 weeks and post results.
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Clay
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Serious Runner
Cool Runner |
posted May-26-2006 09:16 AM
Okay, I can't find the results on here from my first MAF test, so I'll guessimate them right now.I had splits of 8:52, 9:10, 9:09, 9:11, and 9:06. Something close to that. I did another MAF test this morning on the same t-mill that I used for my last test. The only difference was that I did this test early in the morning in order to make sure I could use the same t-mill. Splits today were: 7:39, 7:59, 8:09, 8:21, 8:23 for a total time of 40:31. The spread was bigger than last time at nearly 10 percent, but I also was able to start significantly faster as well. I haven't changed my training in any way; I just go out and plug along at 150 bpm max. I was kind of worried because my normal daily pace hasn't been dropping a bunch lately. In fact, it's slowed down because of the increased heat/humidity. There's not a lot you can do when it's 75 degrees at 5 a.m.
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted May-26-2006 01:46 PM
Seriousrunner,I'm a MAF'er as well, looking forward to my next TM test in about a week. I've been thinking about something that hopefully Jesse, Jim or other experienced MAFers could comment on. If you look at SeriousRunner's two TM tests....now that he/she has increased speed at 150bpm, would it be valuable to drop back in HR and run at the original speed until his speed again increases? I don't know if this is physiologically accurate, but I feel like this would allow a person to squeeze out more of their aerobic capabilities. The Hadd article has a great "tube of toothpaste" analogy that keeps coming to mind. Thoughts? ------------------
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Serious Runner
Cool Runner |
posted May-26-2006 03:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aharmer:
Seriousrunner,If you look at SeriousRunner's two TM tests....now that he/she has increased speed at 150bpm, would it be valuable to drop back in HR and run at the original speed until his speed again increases? I don't know if this is physiologically accurate, but I feel like this would allow a person to squeeze out more of their aerobic capabilities. The Hadd article has a great "tube of toothpaste" analogy that keeps coming to mind. Thoughts?
I would tend to agree with you. I'm actually running at about 5 bpm above the MAF maximum. According to Hadd's writing, that might have to be done at first in order to actually run. Once a decent pace is maintained, it would be beneficial to drop back to the proper HR. I haven't decided if I'll drop back yet since there have only been two tests. I will say this, however. That 7:39 first mile is close to what my daily pace used to be like. It sure felt easier today than it has in the past.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-26-2006 06:47 PM
I eventually targeted 5 beats lower (180-age-5) and my improvement
picked up more steadily when I did. But, it's only one data point -
it could have been because I already had a lot of momentum going.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-27-2006 11:09 AM
Here's a little data point (it's actually a mildly wild guess based
on a few tidbits of info I've collected). For those of you who are
just starting or are thinking of starting a MAF approach based on your
history of burnouts and death marches after mile 20 in the marathon,
here's what you might expect in your first few weeks (or more) of
MAF running. In your marathon, you may have sustained a pace
of 6:45/mile for the first 20 miles, while miles 22-26.2 were at, say,
10:30/mile pace. Assuming you were absolutely *forced* to run
at this pace (i.e., you didn't just get tired and fatigued and were too
lazy to push yourself a bit), the chances are that you ran extremely
low on glycogen. At this point, you had no choice but to find a pace
that was of low enough intensity such that you would use mostly
fat for fuel. I'm trying to phrase this carefully so that you don't buy
into the myth that when you run out of or low on glycogen that you
suddenly "switch" to fat burning and you may not notice the
difference. This pace that you find, be it 10:30/mile, 8:30/mile,
13/mile, whatever, is probably going to be right around your pace
at MAF (although at this point in the actual race, your HR may be
much higher). So if you ran 7s for your first 18-20 and 11s for your
last 3, don't be surprised if your pace at MAF is around 11 min/mi.
Ok, that's my drivel for the day. On the progress front, I thought I'd give the warm-weather strugglers
out there an "I'm with ya." My lack of sleep finally caught up with me
and a couple of days ago, I caught some semblance of a cold. This
morning when I got up (I actually slept around 7 hrs last night, the
most in many weeks), most symptoms were gone but my resting heart
rate was quite high at 58 (on a good day it's down to 39). So, I knew
my 20 miler this morning would take a while. It turned out that it was
also the warmest it's been for one of my long runs in a while, at a
mere 75 and fairly high humidity (funny, I just ran a marathon fairly
well in mid-March when it was 82 and high humidity, but it hasn't
been very warm since). My pace was dreadfully slow
compared to usual and after about mile 10, I had much difficulty in
trying to win the heart rate control battle. To add further insult to
injury, I didn't wear my camelbak but instead carried my 2 20 oz
amphipod bottles (practicing for the vermont 100), which clearly
wasn't sufficient. I was 8 lbs lighter after drinking about 64 oz of
milk and chocolate milk, and eating breakfast. Clearly a contributor
to substantial heart rate drift as well. By the last mile, my avg
heart rate was 153, way over my usual target of 139. I'd better get
in a lot more of these hot runs in (and they'd better get a lot hotter)
before mid-July or I'm in trouble! ------------------
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted May-27-2006 02:05 PM
Jesse,I hear ya! Did 9 today...80 degrees at the start, 87 at the end. avg: 9:38/124. On Monday I did 10 on the same route, cooler weather in 8:19/124. I had no idea the heat would make that much difference. Have you tried mixing Pedialyte 50/50 with water? I've been using it lately and I love it. Electrolyte replenishment without all the sugar of sport drinks. 8oz has 6g carbs. ------------------
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-27-2006 02:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aharmer:
Jesse,I hear ya! Did 9 today...80 degrees at the start, 87 at the end. avg: 9:38/124. On Monday I did 10 on the same route, cooler weather in 8:19/124. I had no idea the heat would make that much difference. Have you tried mixing Pedialyte 50/50 with water? I've been using it lately and I love it. Electrolyte replenishment without all the sugar of sport drinks. 8oz has 6g carbs.
Sounds good. I purposefully avoid carbs during training. It's
really helped me a lot. Of course, when I get going again in the
heat, it's tough getting through! At some point, I will probably
have to transition to something for electrolytes when I start running
20 miles in 90 degree temps. ------------------
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hurryinhoosier
Cool Runner |
posted May-27-2006 03:19 PM
Heat related questions...
I understand I am supposed to keep under the Maff HR regardless of temperature/humidity. Stinks b/c my pace is getting slllooowww again.
My question: Will my pace increase even more once it cools off? I am trying to understand how heat might benefit aeroboc conditioning. I can'e see how it would increase the capillary development or mitochondria size/ #s but am willing to hear theories. I looked around in this thread (Wish the site had a search function) but did not see this addressed. Thoughts from anyone would be great. ------------------
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-27-2006 04:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
Heat related questions...
I understand I am supposed to keep under the Maff HR regardless of temperature/humidity. Stinks b/c my pace is getting slllooowww again.
My question: Will my pace increase even more once it cools off? I am trying to understand how heat might benefit aeroboc conditioning. I can'e see how it would increase the capillary development or mitochondria size/ #s but am willing to hear theories. I looked around in this thread (Wish the site had a search function) but did not see this addressed. Thoughts from anyone would be great.
I don't think the heat's going to benefit your aerobic conditioning,
build mitochondria, or anything like that. However, the more you
run in heat, the more you acclimatize to it, so you will likely eventually
recoop most of your original pace. It's not clear that your low HR pace
will increase more when it cools down, other than the benefit that you
will obtain by putting in a lot of volume below MAF, whether it's hot
or cold. So, if you avoid the heat and you don't have any races in
heat, no big deal. Otherwise, you should try to run in it and acclimatize.
No doubt, it feels like you're pushed back to square one. Fortunately,
most fall marathons are in cooler weather, so you should be able to
get some good pace even if the heat's been slowing you down.
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A6RNNER
Cool Runner |
posted May-27-2006 05:09 PM
hey jesse, been lurking and maffing since the beginning of the year, just trying to work on my base. my speed has not increased significantly but my mileage has just about doubled so i am very happy today. I did a 20 miler today as well (3:05). and man it was very humid. i am not eating anything in the morning and kinda rotating between nuun and ultima; my long winded question is do you if ever use any kind of carbs after 2.5 - 3 hours in the heat? and do you implement any carbs prior to racing. thanks for the input.
walter------------------
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted May-27-2006 09:05 PM
Hoosier,I'm reading Noakes' book (reading, not necessarily absorbing or understanding!), and he addresses several aspects of heat related training. While he does not address this specific question, I'm guessing he would tell you that running a slower pace in the heat in order to stay at your MAF number is neither more nor less beneficial for your overall pace or fitness. Please keep in mind this is all based on my theory after reading his book which does not address this specific topic (in other words...I don't really know what the hell I'm talking about). Running slower in the heat should not slow your regular MAF pace any more than running a fast pace downhill would improve your overall MAF pace. It's more a function of logging mileage at the same, lower, effort that provides the advantage. Any less than optimal environmental variable will slow your pace to some degree, but not permanently. ------------------
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-27-2006 09:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by A6RNNER:
hey jesse, been lurking and maffing since the beginning of the year, just trying to work on my base. my speed has not increased significantly but my mileage has just about doubled so i am very happy today. I did a 20 miler today as well (3:05). and man it was very humid. i am not eating anything in the morning and kinda rotating between nuun and ultima; my long winded question is do you if ever use any kind of carbs after 2.5 - 3 hours in the heat? and do you implement any carbs prior to racing. thanks for the input.
walter
Hi A6. During or before training runs or rides, I don't take in any carbs
at all. I don't take any carbs prior to races unless I happen to be up
3 hours before. The exception being bike rides of 5 hours or more,
in which case, I'll bring peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and gatorade
or something similar to drink. During races, at least 10 minutes in,
I'll take whatever sports drink is available, and in ultras, I'll have all
kinds of stuff.
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The Kevman
Member |
posted May-28-2006 09:36 AM
Hey gang, I have rediscovered running after avoiding it for 22 years. I just completed the couch to 5k program and a ran my first 5k in since I was in Jr. High. I am very intrigued by MAFF (as evidenced by reading most of the 19 pages of this thread). My main goal at this point is to lose weight and improve my conditioning. In the future(6months) I want to look at running hm . I think MAFF will help me but I need some idea of what goals I should set(ie Milage or time). So to clarify, new runner who needs help setting some goals using MAFF to increase aerobic condition and lose weight. Any suggestions? Thanks for a great thread. Kev
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-28-2006 10:50 AM
Hey Kevman-In your instance, you would probably use about the same approach
to get from where you are today to the HM, whether you use a MAF
approach or not. However, keeping all of your runs under MAF while
you build up will help you develop your mileage base with a low likelihood
of injury and develop your aerobic system at the same time. So what
you need right now is a plan to get you from completion to 5k on to
a half marathon training program. There are many options and the main
difference if you're following a MAF approach would be that you would
not do speed work, fartleks, tempos, etc., if suggested - you would just
keep all runs under the MAF heart rate. I'd probably suggest you take
a look at Hal Higdon's Spring Training for a good build-up program. ------------------
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted May-28-2006 02:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Here's a little data point (it's actually a mildly wild guess based on a few tidbits of info I've collected). For those of you who are just starting or are thinking of starting a MAF approach based on your history of burnouts and death marches after mile 20 in the marathon, here's what you might expect in your first few weeks (or more) of MAF running. In your marathon, you may have sustained a pace of 6:45/mile for the first 20 miles, while miles 22-26.2 were at, say, 10:30/mile pace... This pace that you find, be it 10:30/mile, 8:30/mile, 13/mile, whatever, is probably going to be right around your pace at MAF (although at this point in the actual race, your HR may be much higher). So if you ran 7s for your first 18-20 and 11s for your last 3, don't be surprised if your pace at MAF is around 11 min/mi. Ok, that's my drivel for the day.
I'll add something to the drivel. I've think that sticking my current marathon time (deathmarch variety included) into mcmillanrunning.com and looking at the easy run/long run time is a decent approximation for the pace I can run under MAF. No way could I run under MAF for what it says if I plug in 10K times. quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
By the last mile, my avg heart rate was 153, way over my usual target of 139. I'd better get in a lot more of these hot runs in (and they'd better get a lot hotter) before mid-July or I'm in trouble!
Your average was over MAF on a training run? Sacrilege! Excommunication! And to think I was reduced to HRM-induced walk breaks today to keep my heart rate under 145 while you were living it up in the 150s :-) I did 3x 4.6 mile laps: 49:55/137, 52:34/140, 57:33(!)/141. Two weeks ago on the same course I did two laps: 48:04/134, 47:30/141. I'd been creeping up on 10 min/mile training runs and now the heat has suddenly pushed me slower than 11. Wishing I'd done my first MAF test on a treadmill,
Greg [This message has been edited by gregw (edited May-28-2006).] [This message has been edited by gregw (edited May-28-2006).]
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-28-2006 09:31 PM
ouch, busted! Ok, well it's not that bad. My overall average
was under MAF, but there were a few miles that were over MAF.
Hypocritical to say the least! But I'm honest. When I read your
post, I was just about to post a little diatribe about how when the
weather gets hot, it's ok to go over a bit for your first 3 or 4 runs
(not for the whole run, just towards the end) while you acclimatize
to the heat. Nonetheless, I thought back to when I was starting
out with this MAF stuff, I had learned to cut my pace back as much
as was necessary to keep my HR under, so I decided that I had
to re-learn how to get to a slow enough pace. The timing was good
because today I went for a high-end heat run in the afternoon in
preparation for the half ironman I'm doing in two weeks and the
Vermont 100 in mid-July, both of which are known to be scorching
hot. (It turns out that the slow pace I ran today is probably perfect
for a 100 mile race pace.) It was 87 when I left and the temp peaked
out a 90, cooling
to a brisk 82 by the time my 19 mile run was finished. But this
time, I kept all of my miles, even the last couple, under. I learned
how to go "slow enough." My run was about 2 min/mile slower
than when I did essentially the same course about 3 weeks ago.
One thing I did notice about running in the heat. We know that
your pace will slow down at the given heart rate, but when climbing
the big hills, I have to slow my pace down much, much more
than I would otherwise, so I end up with an even slower pace than
if I were running on flat ground. I had never really noticed that
aspect before. ------------------
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runawaymum
Member |
posted May-28-2006 10:34 PM
Ok so I've been lurking around reading this post and checking out the assoc. sites for a couple of weeks, so today I did a 5M heart rate test with these results. Unfortunately I was using a borrowed HRM (waiting for my new Polar s625x to arrive) which is quite old and doesn't show avg HR during exercise but it does show percentage of the max heart rate you enter. My MAFF score 142(180-33-5) so I set max heart rate @140 to be on the safe side.13.30/101%
14.05/112%
12.25/116%
12.30/116%
17.00/107%
Total time was 1.09hr and avg HR 135 I knew it was going to be bad. Mile 1, I aimed to walk first half to warm up before getting into a slow run, hit 140 at about 1/2 mile mark and found as soon as I tried to run my HR rocketed but then came down to about 120 -125 as soon as I walked again. Found it hard to walk fast enough to keep HR 130+ but couldn't run at all. Mile 2, still walking tried running for a bit longer in the vain hope that my HR would level out once I got into a rhythm - no such luck, tried running slower than I was walking, still far too high, and I found it very difficult to run at that speed. Mile 3, walked completely HR stayed at 135 - 145. Mile 4, pretty much the same. Mile 5, slowed down considerably to keep HR at 135 -145 ( some of this was along beach whereas the rest was on pavement.) I have been doing tri's and also some biking and swimming events for 3 1/2 years , my usual running pace is about 5.30 K which I think is about 10 min mile? Have had alot of problems with running I snapped my ACL 2 years ago but didn't have it repaired until 8 months ago, and have had alot of little injuries associated with this. Aprt from that I do a reasonable amount of long distance biking and ocean swimming long distance ( up to 3 miles ) so I was hoping my aerobic fitness would be slightly better than this test indicates. I would usually train 6 days a week. That said I have had three weeks off due to flu and am still a bit chesty, so I guess that would make a big difference. Anyway I would really like to be able to run at this pace, I feel I should be able to run at a slower pace than I'm walking and maintain the right HR, any suggestions on this would be great? General comments greatly appreciated too. BTW my distance measurements may have been a litlle off, so I think I will do a test on the treadmill at the gym later in the week too. Sorry for the long post.
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted May-29-2006 11:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by runawaymum:
My MAFF score 142(180-33-5) so I set max heart rate @140 to be on the safe side.13.30/101%
14.05/112%
12.25/116%
12.30/116%
17.00/107%
Total time was 1.09hr and avg HR 135
Something seems wrong. How can the splits all be greater than 100% of 140 and the average is 135? (Maybe this is heart rate at the split time, but not the average?) Combined with the uncertainty in distance and change in terrain, doing this again with your new polar on a treadmill sounds like a good idea. You might also want to warmup first for ~20 minutes to ease up to MAF heart rate as the test calls for. That said, the test is just a measure of progress and your body responds to training with or without it. Do make sure you're interpreting your heart rate monitor correctly though so you'll know just how slow to go (shouldn't be a problem after you get your polar).
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-29-2006 11:41 AM
I agree with gregw, something's afoot. But, in either case, you've
got a big pile of stuff going on with the recent flu, the few weeks
off because of it, little associated injuries with your ACL, etc. These
are all going to give you a "slow" MAF test. I would suspect that you
should see significant improvements in a few weeks when you get
some of this stuff completely behind you.------------------
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kcy1998
Cool Runner |
posted May-29-2006 12:01 PM
Any Experienced Maffer,
I have a decision to make. On October 22nd I will run the Chicago Marathon. I planned on using Daniels Plan A for my training. In the 22 weeks that I have been Maffing I have gone from a 14:00 mm Maff test to a 10:00 mm Maff test. Since I am up to 50 miles a week with Maffing I need to make a decision pretty soon. Should I stick to Maffing until I get it below a 09:00 mm Maff test or do I start Daniels Plan A in the middle of June? My goal is to BQ and for that I need to run a 08:00 mm @ Chicago. Any input will be apprecriated.
kcy
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-29-2006 07:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kcy1998:
Any Experienced Maffer,
I have a decision to make. On October 22nd I will run the Chicago Marathon. I planned on using Daniels Plan A for my training. In the 22 weeks that I have been Maffing I have gone from a 14:00 mm Maff test to a 10:00 mm Maff test. Since I am up to 50 miles a week with Maffing I need to make a decision pretty soon. Should I stick to Maffing until I get it below a 09:00 mm Maff test or do I start Daniels Plan A in the middle of June? My goal is to BQ and for that I need to run a 08:00 mm @ Chicago. Any input will be apprecriated.
kcy
Well, I think this is one you're gonna have to decide on your own, based
on what feels right. Just remember there will be many marathons ahead
and this MAF stuff is a strategic, not tactical approach (i.e., you can't
force specific results before they are ready!) Nonetheless, you can get
some nice elements of speed just by incorporating fast-finishes for the
last 3-4 miles of a few of your long runs, where you take them at
marathon race pace. That will help phase you in to more intense running
without chiseling away at the base you built. But ultimately, you'll really
have to pick based on how you feel and no one else is really going to
have a better answer for you.
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted May-29-2006 08:09 PM
Your previous marathon history may make it easier to give some sort of answer. What times do you have under your belt at this point? Is the BQ a number that is realistic based on previous races?Are your MAF times still improving steadily? If they've plateaued you may want to consider other options. If you're getting faster all the time I would stick with it. I'm no expert, but running a good marathon (unless you're among the elite) is based on maintaining glycogen stores for as long as possible. The faster you can run at your MAF HR, and the longer you can maintain that pace under MAF HR, the more glycogen you will save at 8:00 pace. ------------------
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runawaymum
Member |
posted May-30-2006 12:08 AM
Hithanks for the reply, I appreciate that my times and measurements are probably a bit off and yes should improve quickly due to the flu etc, what I really want to know is how do I run at this slow pace even if its just for the first few miles initially, or should I just keep walking ? thanks
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corland14
Cool Runner |
posted May-30-2006 02:21 AM
Will a race per month interfere with Maffetone training? I'm running a fall marathon and want to continue to improve my aerobic system. I read Jesse's FAQ's (again) and found the following "Once you binge (i.e., start racing), you will lose a lot of what you built up and when you finish racing, you'll have to do it again, but some of it will stick with you from last time and you will be wiser this time around. The main difference is that you're dieting in preparation for a binge. Just make sure you save your binge for the races, not the training course." I will continue to run ALL of my training runs around the races below Maff. If some of you more experienced runners think that I'll handicap my marathon (aerobic) training though, then I'll pass on the warm up races. Thoughts?
[This message has been edited by corland14 (edited May-30-2006).]
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