| Author |
Topic: Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen |
kcy1998
Cool Runner |
 posted May-01-2006 07:41 AM
  
Jesse,
As you know I have been Maffing for the past 16 weeks. Prior to starting my marathon training I will run in a local 10k. Do you think that throwing in some strides will hurt my Maff training?
Thanks,
kcy------------------
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted May-01-2006 08:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
I don't even think about my cadence.
Me either, until I saw that thread about it. I thought about it for a few days, and decided I didn't need to be counting my steps as well as my heart beats, money, and number of times Spock says "logical" in every episode. Stride length seems like something that developes naturally as you get closer and closer to your ultimate potential, due to years of conditioning and ever increasing levels of fitness. To start forcing myself to run 180 steps no matter what speed I'm going seems like an express ticket to injury land, if not la-la land. --Jimmy
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sfrommelt
Member |
posted May-01-2006 11:07 AM
Thanks too all who have been posting in this Maff thread. I started low HR training in January, and just completed my 1st half-marathon, and was THRILLED with the results!I'm 36, and I've been runnnig on and off for about 5 years. My off time was usually the resulty of minor nagging injuries, or just getting burned out. I've never been a fast runner, but in the past I always pushed myself pretty hard, even on long runs. I started reading about this low HR training here, and thought I'd try it. In January, I started this training, running about 11:00 miles to keep my HR down. Yesterday, I finished my first half-marathon at the Drake Relays in 1:53 (8:40 miles), and I felt great the whole race! To put this in perspective, my best race ever was a 10k and I ran about 9:15 miles! I know this stuff might not work for everyone, but it did wonders for me. Its kept me injury free, helped me to build a stronger base and more endurance than I've ever had, and I LOVE to run more than ever.
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Serious Runner
Cool Runner |
posted May-01-2006 11:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
As you know I have been Maffing for the past 16 weeks. Prior to starting my marathon training I will run in a local 10k. Do you think that throwing in some strides will hurt my Maff training?
Thanks,
kcy
I'm not Jesse, but I don't think strides are a problem. The main thing with MAF is that you don't want to go anaerobic in training. Strides will not cause you to go anaerobic, and they will help your legs get used to the quicker turnover that you'll have in a race. Maffetone himself recommends downhill runs to work on the turnover.
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lana72
Cool Runner |
posted May-01-2006 03:55 PM
Hi guys -
I think it says in FAQs somewhere that Maff training may not work for beginners. I'm a beginner, it worked for me.
Started running last June with c25k, went on one of Hal's programs after, was running up to 10 miles a week by Dec and started Maffing in January. Ran around 370 miles in 4 months under my Maff of 147 (I'm 33). Improved roughly 4 min per mile ( from 15:30 to 11:30) which I'm extremely happy about. No speedwork, all miles were strictly under 147. Increased monthly mileage nearly thrifold. No injuries.
There were definitely times when I was regretting taking up maffing. Not any more!Thanks to all of you guys. Lana
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-01-2006 08:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
As you know I have been Maffing for the past 16 weeks. Prior to starting my marathon training I will run in a local 10k. Do you think that throwing in some strides will hurt my Maff training?
Thanks,
kcy
Not at all. After 16 weeks you need a little pizzazz. Do strides.
Run a 5k. Run a tempo. Just keep the higher end stuff a small
percentage. ------------------
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-01-2006 09:01 PM
Great posts, lana and sfrommelt, thanks for the data points!
It's becoming clear that I'm not an anomaly here, although
different people have a different range of results, and there's
no doubt that some need to make minor adjustments and
tweaks. Wouldn't be nice if this were the magic "one size
fits all" formula? It would take the challenge out of running
if it were. ------------------
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Ksabbo
Cool Runner |
posted May-02-2006 08:04 AM
Thought I'd jump back in with my most recent results. I started Maff base training at the beginning of December last year. Kept at it for 11 weeks and was running approximately 45 mpw. I then switched over to pfitzingers Advanced Marathon training program 10 weeks prior to my marathon. My training was going REALLY well. I was thrilled with the results and then started having problems with my right hip alignment. This threw off my training somewhat while I was trying to get the hip to cooperate with the help of a chiropractor. I missed some important runs and even had to abandon my last long run at mile 17 due to hip problems. Finally 1.5 week out from the marathon my hip decided to cooperate and I began to feel good and confident that I could run the marathon. I had some doubts about my conditioning due to the hip issues, but decided to rely on my training and do a mental check at certain points along the way. My previous marathon was on the same course with a time of 4:37. My goal was certainly to beat this, but I was shooting for a 4:15 or better. I started with a 4:15 pace group and at mile 6 felt I could pick up the pace a bit so I moved ahead of the pace group. At mile 10 I decided to pick it up a bit more. At mile 15 I wanted to pick up the pace again, but didn't think I could hold it for the balance of the marathon so I stayed where I was and held it until approx. mile 23. My last 3.2 miles slowed by about .40 seconds/mile due to tremendous muscle fatigue in my quads. I finished the race with a 4:10. I was thrilled. My cardio conditioning was excellent. My weakness was the strength in my legs. I never felt even close to "hitting the wall" and I know what that feels like. Since I didn't use sports drinks or gels thru most of my training, I didn't rely heavily upon them during the race. I alternated water and gatorade at every even numbered mile until mile 14. After mile 14 I would take a few sips at each mile and took a gel at mile 21. I probably could have used another gel at mile 24, but didn't have another one available. I placed 4th in my age group division and I am really happy with the result. I can't wait to go back to base building again! I need 4:00:59 to qualify for Boston. I think I can do it. P.S. I feel as if I was hit by a freight train. I am REALLY REALLY sore. But this is a soreness I don't mind. Karen
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jellybelly
Cool Runner |
posted May-02-2006 08:46 AM
Hi guys. I hope you don't mind me chiming in on your MAF training but I'm really excited about it. It is totally in opposite of how used to train in my pre heart condition days.Yesterday I ran 53 minutes and I don't know my pace but I kept my hr 125 average. My true MAF is only 124 because of having been in hospital in November with electrical heart problems... but I do let it get up to 129-130 on the hills so I don't have to walk and then get it right back down so that my average on the run was 125. My reasoning is that I ran and raced for 10 years with infrequent injuries so I can squeak a few more beats into my MAF training and still get the benefits. How does this sound? Barbara
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kcy1998
Cool Runner |
posted May-02-2006 09:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ksabbo:
I finished the race with a 4:10. I was thrilled. My cardio conditioning was excellent. My weakness was the strength in my legs. I never felt even close to "hitting the wall" and I know what that feels like.P.S. I feel as if I was hit by a freight train. I am REALLY REALLY sore. But this is a soreness I don't mind. Karen
Karen,
Congrats on the good job! Your results are great to hear. They really offer encouragement. As someone who has hit the wall in each of my two previous marathons, (see the clips on my web page), I am excited about how this will impact my fall marathon. Keep up the good work and I am confident that you will earn a trip to Boston!
kcy ------------------
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-02-2006 06:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ksabbo:
I placed 4th in my age group division and I am really happy with the result. I can't wait to go back to base building again! I need 4:00:59 to qualify for Boston. I think I can do it.P.S. I feel as if I was hit by a freight train. I am REALLY REALLY sore. But this is a soreness I don't mind. Karen
congrats, Karen! that's fantastic. I hope you get over your hip
issues quickly! The soreness will subside ...
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-02-2006 06:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jellybelly:
Hi guys. I hope you don't mind me chiming in on your MAF training but I'm really excited about it. It is totally in opposite of how used to train in my pre heart condition days.Yesterday I ran 53 minutes and I don't know my pace but I kept my hr 125 average. My true MAF is only 124 because of having been in hospital in November with electrical heart problems... but I do let it get up to 129-130 on the hills so I don't have to walk and then get it right back down so that my average on the run was 125. My reasoning is that I ran and raced for 10 years with infrequent injuries so I can squeak a few more beats into my MAF training and still get the benefits. How does this sound? Barbara
great - if it helps you run when you otherwise couldn't, that's one
of the biggest things you can get out of it!
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raubalazs
Member |
posted May-03-2006 01:47 AM
I read most of the MAF book, and did my first low HR training today, target is 150BPM. I set the treadmill to 15% incline and walked at a constant speed (3.1mph) for 60 minutes. My heartrate was oscillating between 143 and 150 after a 15 minute warmup period. While it did not seem like a very hard workout, it was far from being painfully slow, as many runners say after their first experience with MAF training. 60 seconds after the workout my heartrate dropped to 95BMP as I was sitting. I'd say that my pace is about 80% of what I could do if there was treadmill racing ;-) Does the fact that the workout seemed somewhat difficult (like a long run) and the huge drop 60 seconds later suggest that I have a somewhat decent base ?
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-03-2006 05:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by raubalazs:
I read most of the MAF book, and did my first low HR training today, target is 150BPM. I set the treadmill to 15% incline and walked at a constant speed (3.1mph) for 60 minutes. My heartrate was oscillating between 143 and 150 after a 15 minute warmup period. While it did not seem like a very hard workout, it was far from being painfully slow, as many runners say after their first experience with MAF training. 60 seconds after the workout my heartrate dropped to 95BMP as I was sitting. I'd say that my pace is about 80% of what I could do if there was treadmill racing ;-) Does the fact that the workout seemed somewhat difficult (like a long run) and the huge drop 60 seconds later suggest that I have a somewhat decent base ?
It may very well suggest that, unless you have a very low max heart
rate, in which case it means you should use a lower target HR.
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jellybelly
Cool Runner |
posted May-03-2006 08:35 AM
Question:Is it harder to run slowly up a hill at 130 bpm or run faster on the flats at 130 bpm? Barbara
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Serious Runner
Cool Runner |
posted May-03-2006 09:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jellybelly:
Question:Is it harder to run slowly up a hill at 130 bpm or run faster on the flats at 130 bpm? Barbara
Interesting question. I think it depends on the length of the hill. After some time on the hill, it's going to be harder to stay under 130 bpm due to the extra effort going up the hill. Staying under 150 (for me) on the flats is pretty easy if I start at a slower pace. If I try to hit 150 early in the run, I'm slowing down the rest of the way. Running up a hill is going to take more energy than running on the flats. I always find that you can make up more time by running easy up the hill and pushing it when you crest it. Years ago, I was working with my XC team at a meet. The coach next to me to me told her team to "push the uphills because you can rest on the downhills." I immediately circled my team around me and told them, "Run at the same effort level going up the hill as you did on the flats. You'll slow down and probably be passed, but don't worry. When you crest the hill, push it on the downhill because people will back off." After the race, my kids were telling my how maybe 2 or 3 people would pass them on the uphill, but my runners probably passed close to 20 runners on the downhill. Even my best runner went from 10th to 2nd at the finish by using that strategy. By conserving your energy early (or on the uphill), you can blow by people after they've shot their wads early.
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted May-03-2006 09:26 AM
Could you clarify the max HR issue for me? I thought I read that max HR was not necessary because you're not using a percentage of max HR with Maffetone training. I've also read here that somebody might want to lower their Maff number if they have a lower max HR. These two points seem to contradict one another.Thanks!
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-03-2006 06:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aharmer:
Could you clarify the max HR issue for me? I thought I read that max HR was not necessary because you're not using a percentage of max HR with Maffetone training. I've also read here that somebody might want to lower their Maff number if they have a lower max HR. These two points seem to contradict one another.Thanks!
haha, valid question (and another addressed in the FAQ :-) )
Maffetone's approach does not depend on max heart rate, it's
an age-based formula with adjustments based on current fitness.
The comment about low max heart rates is my own adjustment to
Maffetone's formula. Simply put, if one's max heart rate is very
low, 180-age (plus or minus anything) may be up very close to
the max. That's a problem if you're going to run up at the ceiling
of Maffetone's equation. That's why I recommend in those situations
that people follow Hadd's section VI advice (which is a link in the
FAQ). For most people, there's really not a problem with running
at too low of a heart rate (as long as you can actually "run" by
some definition) with this approach, so it doesn't matter if people
have a higher than average max heart rate (I'm 36 and my max
is 210, so I'm in that category - and I happen to target a lower
heart rate value than specified by Maffetone). Most people don't
have to worry about this and they can just use the MAF formula
directly. As with anything, adjustments may be required! ------------------
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jellybelly
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2006 11:53 AM
Question:When does my Maff heartrate change? I had to deduct 10 beats for a hospitalization in November. I'll probably always be on beta blockers. I did my first one hour run since my dreadful heart condition was discovered. Average hr 121: max heartrate 127 up a hill. Pace is unknown and that's maybe better left unknown for a while. I tippy toed up the hills to keep hr down but did not have to walk despite it being the hottest day so far this year. I have to call this great progress. Barbara
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Serious Runner
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2006 12:04 PM
I'm going to ask a stupid question here. Most of you are using the Maffetone formula of 180-age. Do you change the number when you hit a birthday or just keep going with the same number?I'm seeing good progress using a ceiling of 150 bpm. I'm about to drop it to 145, which is closer to my true Maffetone ceiling.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2006 06:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Serious Runner:
I'm going to ask a stupid question here. Most of you are using the Maffetone formula of 180-age. Do you change the number when you hit a birthday or just keep going with the same number?I'm seeing good progress using a ceiling of 150 bpm. I'm about to drop it to 145, which is closer to my true Maffetone ceiling.
I changed it after I reached my birthday, at some point, but since
I target 5 under anyway, it really doesn't matter. At some point, you
may just decide to "take the plunge" to "5 below" as it looks like
you're considering anyway.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2006 06:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jellybelly:
Question:When does my Maff heartrate change? I had to deduct 10 beats for a hospitalization in November. I'll probably always be on beta blockers. I did my first one hour run since my dreadful heart condition was discovered. Average hr 121: max heartrate 127 up a hill. Pace is unknown and that's maybe better left unknown for a while. I tippy toed up the hills to keep hr down but did not have to walk despite it being the hottest day so far this year. I have to call this great progress. Barbara
there's nothing official - you decide. What's funny is that nowadays,
I have no interest in training to go over my MAF heart rate. In a race,
I don't mind going 30, 40, or whatever beats above. ------------------
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2006 09:50 PM
stupid question: is the goal to stay within x beats of the maffetone # for all runs? In other words, I start out and immediately go as fast as I can to get up to my number (138) and then I settle in, listening for the HRM beeps. Is this right and is this the same routine for all runs? Should there be recovery runs at a lower HR? I like this method because it makes me slow down, although nowhere near as slow as some people seem to feel.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2006 09:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by martinjames:
stupid question: is the goal to stay within x beats of the maffetone # for all runs? In other words, I start out and immediately go as fast as I can to get up to my number (138) and then I settle in, listening for the HRM beeps. Is this right and is this the same routine for all runs? Should there be recovery runs at a lower HR? I like this method because it makes me slow down, although nowhere near as slow as some people seem to feel.
In fact, once you have pretty good aerobic fitness, it will be
difficult (and you may even overtrain) to keep all runs right at
MAF. Indeed, you do not need to do that. I do have some
recovery runs nowadays at 15-20 beats below MAF. Mark
Allen's rule is to keep your runs from 80-100% MAF. Running
lower than 80% MAF would be extremely difficult for most
(running at MAF is hard enough for most).
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Serious Runner
Cool Runner |
posted May-05-2006 08:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by martinjames:
stupid question: is the goal to stay within x beats of the maffetone # for all runs? In other words, I start out and immediately go as fast as I can to get up to my number (138) and then I settle in, listening for the HRM beeps. Is this right and is this the same routine for all runs? Should there be recovery runs at a lower HR? I like this method because it makes me slow down, although nowhere near as slow as some people seem to feel.
As I've mentioned before, you can actually have a faster overall run by starting slower and building towards your MAF ceiling. I find that once I hit my MAF ceiling, it's hard to stay under without slowing down. By building towards it, I can run the same pace throughout the run. In other words, I'm using a ceiling of 150 (just under 70% of Heart Rate Reserve) although my MAF ceiling is really about 144. For the first mile of my run, I try not to go over 142. I'll allow up to about 144 for the second mile and so on. Once I'm halfway through the run, I don't concern myself too much with the HR, and it'll drift up to 150. I back off when it starts beeping. Doing that allowed me to run 2 4-mile loops within 1 second of each other. There's no rule saying that you have to run at your MAF ceiling on every run. If you feel exceptionally tired or whatever, coast along at whatever pace feels comfortable as long as you're under the MAF ceiling.
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