| Author |
Topic: Low HR training/base-building ala Maffetone/Mark Allen |
PerfesserR
Cool Runner |
 posted Apr-30-2006 04:13 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
My max heart rate is 210...
Huh? Did you really mean that?
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 04:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PerfesserR:
Huh? Did you really mean that?
indeed. it's not a typo. nor does it mean very much. ------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
tigger
Member |
posted Apr-30-2006 04:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
indeed. it's not a typo. nor does it mean very much.
Isn't there a direct relationship between MHR and IQ???
IP: Logged |
pantsalot
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 04:22 PM
Maybe this has been asked/answered before:As far as I can tell from reading some of these posts one advantage of low heartrate running is, that you can run more miles without getting tired/sore injured. I run about one hour every morning and up to two on the weekends and with my young family and work that's as much time I can put into this hobby for the next years. If I drop some of my tempo runs, my mileage would actually decrease, because my time I can run is constant, but my pace would decrease. Would I still benefit from a strict base building period even at a lower weekly mileage?
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 04:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by tigger:
Isn't there a direct relationship between MHR and IQ???
I wish. ------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 04:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by pantsalot:
Maybe this has been asked/answered before:As far as I can tell from reading some of these posts one advantage of low heartrate running is, that you can run more miles without getting tired/sore injured. I run about one hour every morning and up to two on the weekends and with my young family and work that's as much time I can put into this hobby for the next years. If I drop some of my tempo runs, my mileage would actually decrease, because my time I can run is constant, but my pace would decrease. Would I still benefit from a strict base building period even at a lower weekly mileage?
It's very hard to say and very dependent upon the individual. I do know
that nowadays even though all of my running is at very low heart rates,
my average training pace is a lot faster than what it was before low
heart rate training and my time running more mileage is less than when
I started. However, this has come at a cost of significant time
investment in between and I also do a lot of biking and swimming
(which I am convinced are very helpful for everything). I'd say for
someone who is not interested in getting up super early (sometimes
at 3-4 am) and giving up sleep for running, that is constrained to
a fixed, moderate amount of time (unfortunately, I don't know what
that amount of time is - it's certainly different for everyone), they're
probably better off with a low volume, higher intensity training schedule.
Just my guess, a somewhat arbitrary conjecture. ------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
PerfesserR
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 04:30 PM
An observation and question...
I've been at this MAF thing for about 6 weeks now, and I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this...
There is a point in my LHR runs where my pace (to maintain a given HR) suddenly goes way down, like from 10:30 to 12:30-12:45/mile. It's not a gradual thing, but rather sudden, I have to slow WAY down. One minute I'm cruising along a a slow but comfortable pace, and the next I can't stop the MAX HR beeper from going off without slowing down to almost walking pace.
This used to occur after about 25 minutes but now is at about 50, which is progress I guess. I know that others have reported a gradual increase in HR as the run time goes on, but this is more like a plateau. After that, my pace remains about the same (agonizingly slow) for the remainder of my run.
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 04:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PerfesserR:
An observation and question...
I've been at this MAF thing for about 6 weeks now, and I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this...
There is a point in my LHR runs where my pace (to maintain a given HR) suddenly goes way down, like from 10:30 to 12:30-12:45/mile. It's not a gradual thing, but rather sudden, I have to slow WAY down. One minute I'm cruising along a a slow but comfortable pace, and the next I can't stop the MAX HR beeper from going off without slowing down to almost walking pace.
This used to occur after about 25 minutes but now is at about 50, which is progress I guess. I know that others have reported a gradual increase in HR as the run time goes on, but this is more like a plateau. After that, my pace remains about the same (agonizingly slow) for the remainder of my run.
I had this happen, not quite to the extremes you mention (probably
about 1-1:30 min/mile) some point at the end of long runs, generally
after mile 16 or so. Eventually, it worked its way out, but I did have
to tolerate that for a good two months or so on long run day.
------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
PerfesserR
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 06:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
My max heart rate is 210...
So that makes you, what, 10 years old? 
IP: Logged |
PerfesserR
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 06:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
My max heart rate is 210...
...
indeed. it's not a typo. nor does it mean very much.
How can you be sure? It might. MAF is just a theory, after all.
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 07:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PerfesserR:
How can you be sure? It might. MAF is just a theory, after all.
max heart rates can be all over the place. 220-age is just a
linear curve fit to a large sample. I've seen heart rates between
200 and 210 sustained for over a mile in races of 10-15 miles
on several occasions.
------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
PerfesserR
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 07:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
max heart rates can be all over the place. 220-age is just a
linear curve fit to a large sample. I've seen heart rates between
200 and 210 sustained for over a mile in races of 10-15 miles
on several occasions.
I meant the part about "nor does it mean very much". So says Maffetone, but as I said, it's just a theory, one of many.
The fact that you have such a high MHR might just be related to your athletic ability and endurance. Or it might not. Just because MAF says it's irrelevant, doesn't make it so.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just putting it out there for discussion. After all I am using the Maffetone method myself. But I realize that it is just a training theory so I'm not accepting it without question.
BTW, this is quite a popular thread that you've started.
IP: Logged |
jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 08:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PerfesserR:
An observation and question...
I've been at this MAF thing for about 6 weeks now, and I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this...
There is a point in my LHR runs where my pace (to maintain a given HR) suddenly goes way down, like from 10:30 to 12:30-12:45/mile. It's not a gradual thing, but rather sudden, I have to slow WAY down. One minute I'm cruising along a a slow but comfortable pace, and the next I can't stop the MAX HR beeper from going off without slowing down to almost walking pace.
This used to occur after about 25 minutes but now is at about 50, which is progress I guess. I know that others have reported a gradual increase in HR as the run time goes on, but this is more like a plateau. After that, my pace remains about the same (agonizingly slow) for the remainder of my run.
You might try a different pacing scheme (or heart rate mapping). Try starting slower, and getting to certain HR by mile 2 thru 4 that allows yoou to run an even pace with your HR topping out at your MAF at the end of the run. I.E. On a ten miler, I'll get to 126 ave. (MAF-15) by the end of mile three. Then I just keep that pace. I'll top out at about 139-140 by the end of the run. These days, I'm speeding up in the end of the run to get it to MAF, using this method. Good practice for endurance races. Start slow, get a little faster in the second half. Even pace aint' bad either. Keep going! --Jimmy My running world Current Training [This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Apr-30-2006).]
IP: Logged |
Serious Runner
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 08:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
You might try a different pacing scheme (or heart rate mapping). Try starting slower, and getting to certain HR by mile 2 thru 4 that allows yoou to run an even pace with your HR topping out at your MAF at the end of the run. I.E. On a ten miler, I'll get to 126 ave. (MAF-15) by the end of mile three. Then I just keep that pace. I'll top out at about 139-140 by the end of the run. These days, I'm speeding up in the end of the run to get it to MAF, using this method. Good practice for endurance races. Start slow, get a little faster in the second half. Even pace aint' bad either.Keep going! --Jimmy [This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Apr-30-2006).]
When I run my longer runs, I try to stay about 5 beats below my 150 bpm level for the first half. I then let it climb. For example, during this morning's run, I ran the first 4.5 miles by running about 141 bpm for the first mile and letting it climb by about a beat/minute each mile. As a result, I slowed down a total of 12 seconds from the first half of the run to the second. Almost all of that occurred in the last 1/2-mile when I pushed the last uphill. As a result, I couldn't run the downhill like I usually do since the HR was above my 150 ceiling (one of my rules) I have a 4-mile stretch I like to use for comparison sake. I was 1 second slower the 2nd time through today.
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 09:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PerfesserR:
I meant the part about "nor does it mean very much". So says Maffetone, but as I said, it's just a theory, one of many.
The fact that you have such a high MHR might just be related to your athletic ability and endurance. Or it might not. Just because MAF says it's irrelevant, doesn't make it so.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just putting it out there for discussion. After all I am using the Maffetone method myself. But I realize that it is just a training [b]theory so I'm not accepting it without question.
BTW, this is quite a popular thread that you've started.[/B]
No, I'm not referring to Maffetone when I say it doesn't mean very
much. I don't think he really discusses much about max heart rate.
Most of the literature, from whatever camp, says that max heart
rate has little significance. I have a friend in our local triathlon
club who is in his early 20s. He runs a marathon in sub-2:50,
pretty easily. His max HR is 173.
------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
PerfesserR
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 09:23 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
[B] You might try a different pacing scheme (or heart rate mapping). Try starting slower, and getting to certain HR by mile 2 thru 4 that allows yoou to run an even pace with your HR topping out at your MAF at the end of the run. I.E. On a ten miler, I'll get to 126 ave. (MAF-15) by the end of mile three. Then I just keep that pace. I'll top out at about 139-140 by the end of the run. These days, I'm speeding up in the end of the run to get it to MAF, using this method. Good practice for endurance races. Start slow, get a little faster in the second half. Even pace aint' bad either.Keep going! --Jimmy
Hmm, that sounds like a good plan. I will try that, building slowly to the MAF rate, instead of getting it right up there ASAP. I'll let you know how that works.
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 09:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PerfesserR:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
[B] You might try a different pacing scheme (or heart rate mapping). Try starting slower, and getting to certain HR by mile 2 thru 4 that allows yoou to run an even pace with your HR topping out at your MAF at the end of the run. I.E. On a ten miler, I'll get to 126 ave. (MAF-15) by the end of mile three. Then I just keep that pace. I'll top out at about 139-140 by the end of the run. These days, I'm speeding up in the end of the run to get it to MAF, using this method. Good practice for endurance races. Start slow, get a little faster in the second half. Even pace aint' bad either.Keep going! --Jimmy
Hmm, that sounds like a good plan. I will try that, building slowly to the MAF rate, instead of getting it right up there ASAP. I'll let you know how that works.
If at first you have trouble going slowly enough to start much below
MAF, you can also do about 10 minutes on an exercise bike to slowly
bring up the heart rate. I know some who have been successful with
that approach.
------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
PerfesserR
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 09:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
No, I'm not referring to Maffetone when I say it doesn't mean very
much. I don't think he really discusses much about max heart rate.
Most of the literature, from whatever camp, says that max heart
rate has little significance. I have a friend in our local triathlon
club who is in his early 20s. He runs a marathon in sub-2:50,
pretty easily. His max HR is 173.
Well, then I guess there's some hope for me! Thanks for clarifying that, Jesse. And thanks again for all the work you put into educating us on the forum. I mean, 341 posts and counting...
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 09:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PerfesserR:
Well, then I guess there's some hope for me! Thanks for clarifying that, Jesse. And thanks again for all the work you put into educating us on the forum. I mean, 341 posts and counting...
Absolutely. My max heart rate was 210 even when my running
really sucked! I rarely come close to it anymore. MAFfing has
made me a wuss.
------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
d3finition
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 10:34 PM
i gotta question jesse when you run maffetone whats your cadence? isnt the optimum cadence around 180? my cadance when i run slow (for maffetone) is about 90 and i realised that when i increased my cadance but decrease stride my heart rate shoots up by alot. is it normal to be going at a low cadence?
IP: Logged |
gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-30-2006 11:06 PM
I'm running a marathon next week and was hoping you Maffers might help me predict a time/set a pace. It's hard to know what I'm capable having done only slow running for a while.I ran a marathon 7 weeks ago in 4:17 on a freakishly hot early-March day. I was at 1:57 something at the half (~8:57 pace), 3:00:17 at 20 (9:01 pace), 3:29:29 at 23 (9:06 pace), and 4:16:56 finish (9:48 pace). Classic wall and death mark. I was trying to break 4 hours which worked pretty well for 23 miles :-) I've been doing almost all "recovery" runs since then (set alarm at 150, 75% Max, my Maff is 146) and generally averaging about 142 (I probably don't go over Maff that much). My cheating has been on long runs and a 10-mile race (I also threw in a 4-mile tempo run when bored once -- I'm sorry!). A week ago I stopped cheating on long runs and was surprised to run 17.9 miles at 142 and 10:34 min/mi pace. Last Friday, I ran 6.9 miles at 10:01 pace with an average of 137, which felt like a breakthrough for me. More typical has been ~141 bpm Anyway, today I ran on the actual course. The course is a double out and back over a 10.5 km course plus a little at the end to get the extra 195m. I ran one out and back for 21 km in 2:15:45 (10:24 min/mi). They've already put temporary paint down to mark the miles for next week, so here are my splits 2/21:56/136 -- 10:48 pace
3/10:42/143
4/10:34/141
5/10:35/142
6/10:29/141
7/8:05/141 -- miles mismarked?
8/10:11/144
9/10:46/143
10/10:34/144
11/10:30/143
12/10:15/145 -- I seem to get a sudden rise at heart rate at 2 hours
13.05/11:02/146 -- 10:30 pace (I'm sure I followed the certified course so the total 21 km distance is correct even though it looks like the mile markers are a little screwy in one area.) What I'm struggling with is whether to make another attempt at 4 hours. One thing that gives me hope is that I did this exact same 21 km training run 5 weeks ago (two week after the last marathon) at 10:55 pace and 146 bpm average. It was 10 degrees warmer today than 5 weeks ago, but I also wore tights and long sleeves then. The prediction chart in the Low HR doesn't extend past 10 min/mi, but it looks like 10:24 should be under 4 hours if I extrapolate (my heart rate was also 142 which is MAF - 4). Is it insane to try and run 17 minutes faster on a much hillier course (but should be 5-10 deg cooler) only 8 weeks later? Should I be worried that I can't keep up my pace at the same heart rate beyond two hours? Is that a sign that I don't yet have marathon endurance? (I've been hydrating like a demon.)
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-01-2006 05:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by d3finition:
i gotta question jesse when you run maffetone whats your cadence? isnt the optimum cadence around 180? my cadance when i run slow (for maffetone) is about 90 and i realised that when i increased my cadance but decrease stride my heart rate shoots up by alot. is it normal to be going at a low cadence?
I don't even think about my cadence. ------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted May-01-2006 05:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gregw:
I'm running a marathon next week and was hoping you Maffers might help me predict a time/set a pace. It's hard to know what I'm capable having done only slow running for a while.I ran a marathon 7 weeks ago in 4:17 on a freakishly hot early-March day. I was at 1:57 something at the half (~8:57 pace), 3:00:17 at 20 (9:01 pace), 3:29:29 at 23 (9:06 pace), and 4:16:56 finish (9:48 pace). Classic wall and death mark. I was trying to break 4 hours which worked pretty well for 23 miles :-) I've been doing almost all "recovery" runs since then (set alarm at 150, 75% Max, my Maff is 146) and generally averaging about 142 (I probably don't go over Maff that much). My cheating has been on long runs and a 10-mile race (I also threw in a 4-mile tempo run when bored once -- I'm sorry!). A week ago I stopped cheating on long runs and was surprised to run 17.9 miles at 142 and 10:34 min/mi pace. Last Friday, I ran 6.9 miles at 10:01 pace with an average of 137, which felt like a breakthrough for me. More typical has been ~141 bpm Anyway, today I ran on the actual course. The course is a double out and back over a 10.5 km course plus a little at the end to get the extra 195m. I ran one out and back for 21 km in 2:15:45 (10:24 min/mi). They've already put temporary paint down to mark the miles for next week, so here are my splits 2/21:56/136 -- 10:48 pace
3/10:42/143
4/10:34/141
5/10:35/142
6/10:29/141
7/8:05/141 -- miles mismarked?
8/10:11/144
9/10:46/143
10/10:34/144
11/10:30/143
12/10:15/145 -- I seem to get a sudden rise at heart rate at 2 hours
13.05/11:02/146 -- 10:30 pace (I'm sure I followed the certified course so the total 21 km distance is correct even though it looks like the mile markers are a little screwy in one area.) What I'm struggling with is whether to make another attempt at 4 hours. One thing that gives me hope is that I did this exact same 21 km training run 5 weeks ago (two week after the last marathon) at 10:55 pace and 146 bpm average. It was 10 degrees warmer today than 5 weeks ago, but I also wore tights and long sleeves then. The prediction chart in the Low HR doesn't extend past 10 min/mi, but it looks like 10:24 should be under 4 hours if I extrapolate (my heart rate was also 142 which is MAF - 4). Is it insane to try and run 17 minutes faster on a much hillier course (but should be 5-10 deg cooler) only 8 weeks later? Should I be worried that I can't keep up my pace at the same heart rate beyond two hours? Is that a sign that I don't yet have marathon endurance? (I've been hydrating like a demon.)
I don't think it's insane at all. I think it looks like it may be in the cards
for you if it's not too hot. It looks like you've got 9 min/mile splits in
you. Just make sure you ease up going up the hills and don't waste
the downs. ------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
IP: Logged |
kcy1998
Cool Runner |
posted May-01-2006 07:38 AM
Perfessor,
You might want to check out my link below. In the beginning I was all over the place I could not keep anything constant. Now I am able to hold MAF for a while. In my case it was because I was in pretty bad aerobic shape. I believe my aerobic system has improve. I am going to stay with it for a while before I enter my marathon training.
kcy------------------
My Running Page
IP: Logged |
gregw
Cool Runner |
posted May-01-2006 07:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
I don't think it's insane at all. I think it looks like it may be in the cards
for you if it's not too hot. It looks like you've got 9 min/mile splits in
you. Just make sure you ease up going up the hills and don't waste
the downs.
Jesse- Thanks for the vote of confidence. Right now, Sunday is supposed to be 51 low 66 high, so it looks like I'm catching a break. I'm planning on giving this maff thing a real shot after the marathon. I think I'm definitely a candidate (47:21 10K PR, 4:17 marathon PR). I'll let you know how it goes. Greg Congratulations on your BQ!
IP: Logged |
 |
