posted Apr-18-2006 07:02 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
Your times are amazing! Your ability to stick with Maf for 2+ years is impressive. My Maf times are falling and I hope that this will start to be reflected in my race times. My next scheduled race is May21 when I do a local 10K. As far as my fall marathon the plan is to do Daniels Plan A. Hopefully I can run Chicago and see a nice improvement.
Thanks for all of your input. kc

---

thanks - actually I've been doing the MAF running for about a year.
The year prior, I did 8 weeks of 70%HRmax training ala Hadd, and I
saw several race improvements just from that in shorter distance
races.

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posted Apr-18-2006 07:08 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Serious Runner:
I got my new Cardiosport Extreme the other day and have been playing with it. There's quite the learning curve as this is loaded.

Anyway, I'm looking at following more of a Parker-type program where I alternate days at 70% w/ days around 85%. 70% gives me a few extra beats to play with, and I'm under the philosophy that I have to do quality-type work in order to run faster. The quality work is more of a temp-type effort. However, right now, I'm just wearing the thing to get used to it.

What I've learned so far:

1. A easy mile or so to warm up helps a bunch. The other day, I started off by trying to get into my normal rhythm quickly. I averaged 7:24 pace for 5 miles, but my HR topped out at 186 while running a 7:11 mile (albeit part of it was uphill).

2. Yesterday, it was 101 degrees when I went out to run 5 miles. Although I was cruising along at 8:00+ pace, my HR topped out at 179.

3. When I go over 180, I get miserable in a hurry. Of course, that's approximately 90% of max. I could literally feel the difference in how I felt between 178 bpm and 180 bpm. 178 was pushing; 180 had me dry-heaving after a few minutes.

4. Stayed under 150 bpm this morning for 5 miles. I felt like I was crawling. On the other hand, it was nice knowing that I didn't have to push because I was already tired.

The heat will be an issue in training w/ an HRM.

---

There was a thread started on Parker training progress not too long
ago - perhaps you can dig it up from the last several weeks.
Observations on your observations:

1. easy mile to start out - definitely! no matter what type of
training you do - even in races. In fact, I've found that 3-5 miles
of light warm up before a race is even better (but I don't do that
before anything longer than a half marathon).

2. heat - yes, major factor, will reduce your pace tremendously
at a given heart rate. And it's not artificial.

3. It looks like you've found your lactate threshold and it occurs
around 179. That will be good to know.

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posted Apr-18-2006 08:53 PM            

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posted Apr-18-2006 09:01 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
I am thinking about doing one day on the bike. I do know that riding the bike is is tougher to get the HR up. This is my question. If I ride the bike and my HR is 20-25 below Maf will it be beneficial? Or do I need to stay close to Maf?
TIA,
kc

---

It will still be beneficial as long as you are at least 80% of MAF
heart rate. Just to be clear, are you talking about the stationary
bike or a bike on the road? If you go out on the roads on a hilly
course, it can be very difficult to keep HR down when climbing
the steep hills. If you are on a stationary bike, if you set the level
to 20 or whatever is highest, you may be able to keep it up that
way as well. In either case, there's nothing wrong with being below
MAF.

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posted Apr-19-2006 01:36 AM            

Sorry to but in here guys. I read and follow this thread and it has been very educational.

Again, I but in with a question for Jesse(or anyone else)as it pertains to MAFF.

I'm having trouble with the rule "no carbs before or during exercise". It's not the carbs I'm having trouble with at all, it's electrolytes. Lately, the temps are getting hotter here and on my long runs I seem to be getting dizzy and light headed. I read about my episod's and all info points to a lack of electrolytes. To the best of my knowlege the best way to get the perfect balance of electrolytes is from gatorade. We all know gatorade is loaded with carbs. I went ahead and tried drinking 24oz of gatorade before my long run last week and boy what a difference. This rule makes sense and I understand the benifits of "no carbs" but how else can I get the proper hydration I need?

So Jesse, I guess my question is, what do you drink on your long runs?

BTW sense upping my MAF limit my progress is going great. I wanted to post my test this week but my allergies are going ape sh** causing wacky behavior with my HR.

Jimmy, congrats on the boston. I watched it on tv. All I could thnk is, man what an accomplishment it would be to be their. I have made that my ultimate running goal. I know it's not easy qualifying for the boston, so I really mean it. Congratulations!!!

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posted Apr-19-2006 05:27 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Uhhhmmm!!!

Sorry to but in here guys. I read and follow this thread and it has been very educational.

Again, I but in with a question for Jesse(or anyone else)as it pertains to MAFF.

I'm having trouble with the rule "no carbs before or during exercise". It's not the carbs I'm having trouble with at all, it's electrolytes. Lately, the temps are getting hotter here and on my long runs I seem to be getting dizzy and light headed. I read about my episod's and all info points to a lack of electrolytes. To the best of my knowlege the best way to get the perfect balance of electrolytes is from gatorade. We all know gatorade is loaded with carbs. I went ahead and tried drinking 24oz of gatorade before my long run last week and boy what a difference. This rule makes sense and I understand the benifits of "no carbs" but how else can I get the proper hydration I need?

So Jesse, I guess my question is, what do you drink on your long runs?

BTW sense upping my MAF limit my progress is going great. I wanted to post my test this week but my allergies are going ape sh** causing wacky behavior with my HR.

Jimmy, congrats on the boston. I watched it on tv. All I could thnk is, man what an accomplishment it would be to be their. I have made that my ultimate running goal. I know it's not easy qualifying for the boston, so I really mean it. Congratulations!!!

---

You need electrolytes, especially on hot and long runs! I take crystal
light generally. Ultima replenisher is a good one with pretty much no
calories or carbs - just flavor and electrolytes. Too bad about your
allergies - when my weekly mileage is over about 60, my allergies mostly
go away, fortunately for me.

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posted Apr-19-2006 07:41 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Uhhhmmm!!!

Sorry to but in here guys. I read and follow this thread and it has been very educational.

Again, I but in with a question for Jesse(or anyone else)as it pertains to MAFF.

I'm having trouble with the rule "no carbs before or during exercise". It's not the carbs I'm having trouble with at all, it's electrolytes. Lately, the temps are getting hotter here and on my long runs I seem to be getting dizzy and light headed. I read about my episod's and all info points to a lack of electrolytes. To the best of my knowlege the best way to get the perfect balance of electrolytes is from gatorade. We all know gatorade is loaded with carbs. I went ahead and tried drinking 24oz of gatorade before my long run last week and boy what a difference. This rule makes sense and I understand the benifits of "no carbs" but how else can I get the proper hydration I need?

So Jesse, I guess my question is, what do you drink on your long runs?

BTW sense upping my MAF limit my progress is going great. I wanted to post my test this week but my allergies are going ape sh** causing wacky behavior with my HR.

Jimmy, congrats on the boston. I watched it on tv. All I could thnk is, man what an accomplishment it would be to be their. I have made that my ultimate running goal. I know it's not easy qualifying for the boston, so I really mean it. Congratulations!!!

---

Thanks, Jess. It took a lot of hard aerobic work to get there, and if you keep at it, you'll get there. Just take your time.

On the carbs before a race: I ate my traditional 4 pieces of french toast at 7:45 am for a 12:00 race. I drank only water for the first 50 minutes of the race, and then did Gatorade or water every 20 minutes and a GU every 50 minutes. Never hit the wall. That's two marathons in a row, no slowing and no wall.

On long runs I drink 14-21 oz per hour (depending on the temp) of a water and gatorade mixture (1/2 and 1/2). No gels (i.e. GU) or food.

Tanking up on h2o and electrolytes starts way before any long run or race. You should be fully hydrated by the night before the race or run.
So, basically work on your hydration, salt, potassium, etc. all the time.
You can only absorb so much during a run, and if you come into the day of a run already depleted, drinking Gatorade during a run will only go so far. The only side effect of staying hydrated between runs is that you'll have to go to the bathroom more often. Bananas, nuts, etc. are great sources of potassium. Salt is generally not a problem as it is in almost everything.

Take care. Go for that Boston dream.

Here's a report I wrote for my running club (it's the second one on the page):

http://www.rirr.org/race_reports/racereport_bosmar_2006.html

Kee going!

--Jimmy

Coolrunning profiles:
My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Apr-19-2006).]

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posted Apr-19-2006 07:57 AM               

I do the same for all my runs.

--Jimmy

Coolrunning profiles:
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posted Apr-19-2006 08:20 AM            

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posted Apr-19-2006 10:20 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jimmy,
Great race report. Boston is a goal and I seem to be moving in the right direction. If I can run it as strong as you then it will be success. Your race report makes earning a BQ time even more desireable.
The question about the electorlytes. On training runs you use half water and half Gatorade. Is that correct? Of course you hydrate very well during the week. Is taking an electrolyte during a training run a negative or a positive? Since it is warming up I want to be prepeared for the summer months.
kcy

---

Thanks.

As far as electrolytes during a training run. I don't see a problem with that.
Especially if it's hot. It might not be necessary on runs shorter than an hour. If you do some Gatorade during a long run, you'll get your electolytes. There is something called E-caps that provide just electrolytes. I've never tried them.

--Jimmy

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posted Apr-19-2006 02:24 PM            

Another word to Jimmy. I was just thinking about the boston while doing today's run and you came to mind. I have followed some of your posts and read your training experiements. I think you are a very good roll model to new runners.(imho) I think maybe it was your humble experiements that brought you so far. You seem to have learned the ins and outs of your body well and what works and doesn't. The more I learn about runners the more I see that what you did is not so easy. That takes a great level of humility on a physlogical level. So I'll tel, you again. Good work. I learned something new today.

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posted Apr-19-2006 08:34 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Thanks fot the replies guys!! I ordered some ultima replinsher. I noticed it still has a great deal of carbs in it. I take so long as their not simple carbs than thats ok. Right?

---

Well, ultima has about 6 grams of carb per 20 oz serving, which is
not much. In the realm of "no carbs before running" it doesn't matter
if they are simple or complex. Just wait until you're 15 minutes or
so into the run and you'll stay consistent with the "rules."

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posted Apr-20-2006 08:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, ultima has about 6 grams of carb per 20 oz serving, which is
not much. In the realm of "no carbs before running" it doesn't matter
if they are simple or complex. Just wait until you're 15 minutes or
so into the run and you'll stay consistent with the "rules."

---

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posted Apr-20-2006 08:42 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by leitnerj:
[b] Well, ultima has about 6 grams of carb per 20 oz serving, which is
not much. In the realm of "no carbs before running" it doesn't matter
if they are simple or complex. Just wait until you're 15 minutes or
so into the run and you'll stay consistent with the "rules."

---

[/B][/QUOTE]

You'll be fine 5 miles into the run. I usually do water for the first 50 minutes, then a gatorade/water mix.

I'm curious. What is your MAF, and what is your MHR and RHR (resting heat rate)?

You are showing great progress, and I'm curious at what %HRR your MAF is.

--Jimmy

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posted Apr-20-2006 09:05 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:

Another word to Jimmy. I was just thinking about the boston while doing today's run and you came to mind. I have followed some of your posts and read your training experiements. I think you are a very good roll model to new runners.(imho) I think maybe it was your humble experiements that brought you so far. You seem to have learned the ins and outs of your body well and what works and doesn't. The more I learn about runners the more I see that what you did is not so easy. That takes a great level of humility on a physlogical level. So I'll tel, you again. Good work. I learned something new today.

---

Thanks for your kind words. It's my nature that when I have an interest, I dive in with my whole being. I learn everything there is, keep stats (love stats), and try to do my very best. The interest has to be there, though. Jesse and I, and others, have managed to really stretch our limits in the first three years of running. If I didn't discover aerobic heart rate training, I think I would have been down with a major injury a long time ago (knock on wood--I praise ye running Gods). I enjoy posting my experiments here for a few reasons:

1) Education--might help someone else and I might learn something
2) Communication and connecting with others
3) Expressing the "look at me, Skipper, I'm flying" braggert part of myself.

"Look at me, Skipper..." comes from Gilligan's Island--one of the great mythic TV shows (don't get me started on the symbolism of Mary Ann's coconut cream pies). This is paraphrased, but close:

Gilligan builds some wings and jumps off his hut and begins to fly. There he is , hovering quite well. He calls to the other castaways and they come running:

SKIPPER: Gilligan what are you doing?!

GILLIGAN: Skipper, I'm flying! I'm flying!

SKIPPER: Gilligan!!!

GILLIGAN: What, Skipper?

SKIPPER: You can't fly.

GILLIGAN: I can't?

SKIPPER: No!

GILLIGAN: Oh...

Gilligan falls in a heap to the ground.

Now replace flying with "running a marathon" or "running a marathon 3 days in a row" and you'll see the genius of this simple comedy. :> )
I'm a lot like Gilligan, except I try not to talk to the "Skipper People." That's why I come here and say "Look at me." It's fun.

Running is physical, but what you end up doing, the limits you accept are all in the realm of belief. Be a Gilligan, and slay the Skipper.

Thanks again.

--Jimmy

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posted Apr-20-2006 09:19 AM               

I did MAF for 5 weeks in December and early Jan. My MAF HR and pace was around 8:10 pace outside which did not change throughout the 5 weeks while doing 20-25 miles per week over 4 days per week

In late Jan. I incorporated marathon paced tempo running one day per week for 3-5 miles and finished with 3-4 X 200M at a quick pace and some Fartleks or medium length intervals another day of the week but not too hard, more in the range of 1/2 marathon pace or critical velocity pace. One of the above runs made up my long run. I did not do any anaerobic interval work or just minimal during the quick 200M spurts. I stayed pretty much aerobic up to today.

I did a MAF test outside for 9 miles. My MAF HR is 146. My pace starting at mile 2 was 7:35 and only drifted to 7:41 by mile 8. It felt great. I am ecstatic on my progress just by adding some tempo work and various pace work but not too intense. My body feels great and the work outs are much more interesting and fun.

Now, for comparisons sake, my HR last year at this time was also around 8:00 - 8:10 pace for 146 which is exactly 80% of my max. Last year I did a lot more hard work, faster intervals, faster tempos, more intense long runs etc. but my pace didn't really improve with the same mile either.

It seems that it wasn't until I started doing slower, slightly longer tempo work and slower intervals and short quick reps that I started improving. I also did multiple paces during long runs vs. just one slow pace. I still do a long run every other week but with a bit more effort, like 75-78% of max HR. I really feel this system (as advocated by Tinman for me) has helped me immensely. For me, too much hard work doesn't work, too much slow work doesn't work but in between works very well. Just my thoughts....

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posted Apr-20-2006 11:44 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tchuck:
INTERESTING OBSERVATION BY ME ON MAF TRAINING

It seems that it wasn't until I started doing slower, slightly longer tempo work and slower intervals and short quick reps that I started improving. I also did multiple paces during long runs vs. just one slow pace. I still do a long run every other week but with a bit more effort, like 75-78% of max HR. I really feel this system (as advocated by Tinman for me) has helped me immensely. For me, too much hard work doesn't work, too much slow work doesn't work but in between works very well. Just my thoughts....

---

Your MAF HR is 80% of your maximum? Even giving myself the 5 extra bpm, I'm still at 73% of maximum.

Anyway, the more important question is has your racing improved?

I like your idea of the 200m repeats because I feel that speed is a use or lose proposition. I also agree with your philosophy about running slightly faster a couple of times/week without going anaerobic. Your post was what I was trying to get at when I mentioned doing quality work earlier.

I try to do 100m strides after many easy runs just to get some turnover.

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posted Apr-20-2006 03:51 PM            

I'm curious. What is your MAF, and what is your MHR and RHR (resting heat rate)?

You are showing great progress, and I'm curious at what %HRR your MAF is.

--Jimmy
Jimmy,
Thanks for the kind words. Everyone around here has been a real encouragement. About a year ago I saw my MHR @ 191. My RHR is at 46. My MAF is 135. If my math is correct then I am running at 93% of my HRR.
I have seen improvement but I am still running MUCH SLOWER than my 09:15 pace that I averaged for the last 3 miles of my previous marathon. Last w\e I ran a 08:53 pace for a Half Marathon. Hopefully this works because I have felt and looked like DEATH after my previous two marathons.
Thanks for everything. kcy

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posted Apr-20-2006 06:24 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:

Jimmy,
Thanks for the kind words. Everyone around here has been a real encouragement. About a year ago I saw my MHR @ 191. My RHR is at 46. My MAF is 135. If my math is correct then I am running at 93% of my HRR.
I have seen improvement but I am still running MUCH SLOWER than my 09:15 pace that I averaged for the last 3 miles of my previous marathon. Last w\e I ran a 08:53 pace for a Half Marathon. Hopefully this works because I have felt and looked like DEATH after my previous two marathons.
Thanks for everything. kcy

---

You're probably a little higher than 191, but we'll go with that since you saw it while running hard. Here's your %HRR chart:

Maximum Heart Rate (Entered) = 191 (RHR=46)

% of Heart Rate Reserve*
%HRR.... BPM
------- -------
100....191.0
95....183.8
90....176.5
85....169.2
80....162.0
75....154.7
70....147.5
65....140.2
60....133.0
55....125.7

So your MAF is about 62% HRR.

I used this calculator:
http://www.stevenscreek.com:80/goodies/hr.shtml

--Jimmy

My Running World
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posted Apr-20-2006 06:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
You're probably a little higher than 191, but we'll go with that since you saw it while running hard. Here's your %HRR chart:

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posted Apr-20-2006 06:48 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
[b] You're probably a little higher than 191, but we'll go with that since you saw it while running hard. Here's your %HRR chart:

---

[/B][/QUOTE]

I say that's it probably a little higher because it's very hard to get there. Especially for me. It took a half marathon and almost a mile sprint with my heart hanging out of my mouth to get it to 195. When I used a track test after a 2 mile warm up, my heart was hanging out of my mouth, but I only got it up to 183. I'm not sure how you did your test, so I really don't know. But I probably wouldn't be wrong to say that you are 193-195. 191 will do.

My MAF is now 140, which makes it about 63% HRR.
--Jimmy

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posted Apr-20-2006 09:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by leitnerj:
[b] Well, ultima has about 6 grams of carb per 20 oz serving, which is
not much. In the realm of "no carbs before running" it doesn't matter
if they are simple or complex. Just wait until you're 15 minutes or
so into the run and you'll stay consistent with the "rules."

---

[/B][/QUOTE]

Indeed that's what I'm saying. The fact that I take no carbs during
training runs is really based on a suggestion from McMillan about
running on empty. Maffetone says that as long as you wait until
some time 15 minutes or so into the run, you can take carbs without
countering the approach.

I haven't read all of the new messages yet, but I'll guess that someone
has already responded ...

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posted Apr-20-2006 09:12 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tchuck:
For me, too much hard work doesn't work, too much slow work doesn't work but in between works very well. Just my thoughts....

---

Thanks a lot for coming back in here to post.
I think this is 100% consistent with the data presented by Mark Allen, Maffetone, Hadd, et al. When you started, you weren't exhibiting any of
the "poor aerobic conditioning" problems - your race times correlated
well, you didn't have burnout problems, chronic injuries, etc., and
you were able to run a decent pace at low heart rates. Given that,
there was nowhere strictly low heart rate training could take you -
no further base to build. Hence, the right thing for you was to do
most of your mileage well into the aerobic regime to maintain your
base and a moderate percentage of more aggressive running.
Interestingly enough, I'm seeing the same with some of my guinea
pig office friends whom I have coerced into trying this stuff. I
only have inconclusive data from them thus far, but your post seems
to put the nail in the coffin.

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posted Apr-20-2006 10:14 PM            

http://home.comcast.net/~kc13024/running.html

Thanks for all the information and encouragement.

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posted Apr-21-2006 08:50 AM            

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