posted Aug-14-2005 06:21 PM            

Best,

Jim

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Very First Steps - My training journal, broadly conceived
Unqualified Offerings - Trying to Be Amused Since October 2001

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posted Aug-14-2005 07:02 PM               

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posted Aug-14-2005 11:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by bluecru:
Hoping to get some advice from you guys! I'm in pretty much the same boat that Bishop297 is in. Mileage and speed wise I think. My MAF is 129. I did a treadmill run today to see where I'm at. Started @4.0 and gradually had to move down to 3.6 to keep the HR around 130. This sucked big time! Anyhow, can I allow some extra beats for heat and humidity? If so, then about how many beats? How well will the MAF principles work for someone with pretty low weekly mileage. THough, with this plan I can see taht the mileage will build because the run (if you can call it that) felt easy on the legs. Hlp, advice, suggestions appreciated!

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Hi - you're asking the standard questions. No extra beats for heat,
humidity, and hills, you just need to slow down (miserable as it sounds).
That's why I did all of my runs on the treadmill for the first 6 weeks or
so, until I got up to a reasonable pace. You will get the maximum
possibly pace for your $ on the treadmill (no air resistance, it's
effectively a downhill run). You should still see progress
even on lower mileage, but it will likely be proportionally slower progress-
I'm sure it's an individual thing. Indeed, you should be able to tolerate
more mileage at lower heart rates than you would running at a higher
level of effort.

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posted Aug-15-2005 07:04 AM               

How "damaging" is exceeding the target heartrate and by how much.

As an example, on my LSD run yesterday I spent only 28% of my time running under my Maffetone heartrate (180-39=141). However, I was still trying to keep it down in the lower ranges up until very late in my run. I spent 54% under 145, only allowing it to go up higher during my last 3 1/2 miles of 9.5 (and earlier walking up a very challenging hill, yes it went over even at a brisk walk).

So two parts to the question. How "bad" is it to exceed by small margins (4-5 HR)? Does the system still work if some running is in the 70-80% range of max calculated the traditional way?

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posted Aug-15-2005 07:19 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by dgb2n:
Couple more questions.

How "damaging" is exceeding the target heartrate and by how much.

As an example, on my LSD run yesterday I spent only 28% of my time running under my Maffetone heartrate (180-39=141). However, I was still trying to keep it down in the lower ranges up until very late in my run. I spent 54% under 145, only allowing it to go up higher during my last 3 1/2 miles of 9.5 (and earlier walking up a very challenging hill, yes it went over even at a brisk walk).

So two parts to the question. How "bad" is it to exceed by small margins (4-5 HR)? Does the system still work if some running is in the 70-80% range of max calculated the traditional way?

---

Gosh....I don't think it's *BAD* to go up a few beats. My Maff heart rate is 139. Well, actually, 134. I gave myself 5 extra for a few weeks until I knew I was finishing my runs faster. Then, and now I can 134, and sometimes dropping to 132 and I am running. Mind you, it's slower running, like 13 min miles. But it's still running. Now, since I have somewhat of base, I'm finding the method going faster this time around.

This is the second round of Maffetone aerobic building I have done. In an earlier post to this I started at 14 min. miles.....very grueling. However my runner friend was a good coach to tell me to keep going and not give up. It took several months to get to a 10 min. mile, but it worked.....and I stayed at the same HR. I was prudent with that number!! When hills came, and my HR went up, I'd walk up!

Maybe someone will chime in and give you their thoughts. I do like this method. I feel good after the runs, I can run longer, and build *time-on-my-feet* in a more gentle way. Remember, I'm not marathon training at this time, just enjoying running and base building. Each week brings a new level of success.

Good Luck!

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posted Aug-15-2005 09:09 AM               

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posted Aug-15-2005 10:08 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by bluecru:
A follow to the great answers I've received with more questions. You all seem to be high mileage or marathon types. Just an observation and not a criticism. I'm looking at the MAF system for races in the 10K range. I just don't have the time to spend training right now. Considering that, is MAF for me? Another question! Can one do all their training at a MAF type level or is it just a base building stage? Incidentlly, the run I tried yesterday, though humbling(!!) was really easy on the legs. No rush on my training time is on my side there.

---

It may be a good idea to purchase his books. There is a something in there about the Maf Test and Competition. I don't remember everything it says. The book is a great tools and probably can answer even more questions as they come up.

Good Luck.

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posted Aug-15-2005 11:52 AM               

quote:

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This is the second round of Maffetone aerobic building I have done. In an earlier post to this I started at 14 min. miles.....very grueling. However my runner friend was a good coach to tell me to keep going and not give up. It took several months to get to a 10 min. mile, but it worked.....and I stayed at the same HR. I was prudent with that number!! When hills came, and my HR went up, I'd walk up!

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What kind of mileage were you doing before the MAF program? I'm certainly on the low end. Might I be better off with a HRM for the Complete Idiot" type of program? That keeps the rate under 70%. I'm not competing as such. Just against myself. I'm a 10 m/m runner at best right now.
You also mentioned losing weight. I could lose 10 and probably closer to 15. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by bluecru (edited Aug-15-2005).]

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posted Aug-15-2005 04:43 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by bluecru:
Thanks Boston. Another question for you based on this quote..
What kind of mileage were you doing before the MAF program? I'm certainly on the low end. Might I be better off with a HRM for the Complete Idiot" type of program? That keeps the rate under 70%. I'm not competing as such. Just against myself. I'm a 10 m/m runner at best right now.
You also mentioned losing weight. I could lose 10 and probably closer to 15. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by bluecru (edited Aug-15-2005).]

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I'm trying to remember the exact mileage....I was running everyday, and that meant 4,5,6,7....so, I'll ball park an average of 35 mpw. I didn't use Maffetone until a year later.

I then used Maffetone from Feb. to June, and then started marathon training. I just used the Hal Higdon Intermediate Training program, but ran it using Maffetone. Some of the runs were long....in time that is. About twice-a-week I'd speed myself up to 150/55 HR the last two miles of a run. That's how I did that.

I read HR Training for the Complete Idiot....I think that's the book your referring to. It made sense, too. Is that one asking you to find your max, and the HRR? If I'm thinking of the same book as you, the author/runner was pretty humorous, right? I enjoyed reading that book!! Ahhh....the author was John L. Parker, Jr.!! Very good book, and wonderful ideas. I have considered that method as well.....perhaps that may be good for you, too!!!!

If you do that, you'll have to let us all know how things are going!

I hope I answered some of your questions. Oh, and yes, weight came off, but I watched what I ate as well. Nothing after 7:30pm., a salad and protein for dinner, no cookies, chips, cake! Lots of water. Weight came off fast. I didn't have that much to lose, but the lighter I am, the better I run. I did find that when I ran the long runs (anythong over 10), my appetite decreased. Weird, I know, but I wasn't hungry!

Good Luck~

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posted Aug-15-2005 06:08 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dgb2n:
Couple more questions.

How "damaging" is exceeding the target heartrate and by how much.

As an example, on my LSD run yesterday I spent only 28% of my time running under my Maffetone heartrate (180-39=141). However, I was still trying to keep it down in the lower ranges up until very late in my run. I spent 54% under 145, only allowing it to go up higher during my last 3 1/2 miles of 9.5 (and earlier walking up a very challenging hill, yes it went over even at a brisk walk).

So two parts to the question. How "bad" is it to exceed by small margins (4-5 HR)? Does the system still work if some running is in the 70-80% range of max calculated the traditional way?

---

It's really hard to say. For myself, I saw the most significant results
of pace improving at low heart rates when I was almost exclusively
below MAF, even in miles 20-22 of a run in 90 deg heat. However,
there are times when it just sneaks up on you and you just have to
cut back and move on. Since I've been consistent for about the last
9 or 10 weeks or so, I've been letting things get higher for the last
few miles of my long runs. I've yet to see what the effect will be.
I had a good run in cool weather this morning, so, it hasn't completely
sabotaged everything. I know that when I did this last time, I started
to race (2M, 5k, 10k), once a week, and after a couple of months,
I definitely lost a lot of my conditioning at low heart rates, even though
these runs made up more than about 5-10% of my weekly mileage.
It's hard for me to say what the effects of just running 10-15 beats
high would be on a regular basis, assuming you still did at least around
70% at strictly less than MAF. I would say that if you really want to
see any progress, you would want to put most (80% or so) in strictly
below MAF.

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posted Aug-15-2005 08:00 PM               

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posted Aug-15-2005 08:37 PM               

I'm having trouble setting my ego aside and accepting that I'm really in fairly poor shape, particularly after 8 weeks of consistent running after such a long gap in training. I've taken some satisfaction with increasing my long run up to just under 10 miles but I'd like to really focus on a foundation of cardio fitness.

I can remember looking at Leitnerj's mile times and thinking "wow, for running so much, he's really slow". Now, trying to run a mile in his shoes it doesn't seem so easy. Particularly since he's 3 years younger than me running at 3 beats slower than I'm shooting for.

Tomorrow's another day. Will try and keep my pace slow enough to stay more below MAF than above.

May do a MAF test next week when I get to a treadmill so that I can track progress.

Believe its just a matter of warming up and then running 5 miles at my MAF HR and recording each split right?

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posted Aug-15-2005 09:22 PM               

Worry about recording some mile splits in a month or so. Maybe in two weeks. Don't get caught up in how long it takes to run a mile.

Just run your Maffetone HR.

I, too, was once embrassed at how slow I looked. Runners passed me, but guess what? I never bonked, finished stronger in marathons, and felt good afterwards.

Just give this all a try. Run. Run slow, and you'll soon see that your running routes are being run faster than a few weeks before; and your at the same HR!

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posted Aug-15-2005 09:26 PM               

Hasanyone else had their form break down? If so, what's the trick to maintaining form? My knees hurt a bit as a result. Also, did I waste me time where I was over my suggested MAFF max?

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posted Aug-16-2005 04:34 PM               

I felt real weird the first week or so doing Maffetone!!! O thought I wasn't getting anywhere....anywhere at all!! But, I figured I had nothing to lose, and it worked for my friend, and figured, well, I'm pretty patient, and could do this. I approached it as a challenge.

I developed a kinda hop-jog when I first began Maff. It made me feel like I was running alittle.

It is normal when you first begin to have difficulty staying in your range. But, it will happen. Just wait and see. If you can manage an real early a.m. run, it will be easier on you. However, when I had to run in hotter/humid weather and was forced to go slower, the cooler weather mornings were more fun!!!

Just hand in there. It will all come together. Also, after I had pretty much gotten to where I wanted, my resting heart rate went down from 78 to 44. Quite an accomplishment for me!! It just takes time building a strong aerobic base.

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posted Aug-16-2005 05:01 PM               

For what its worth, my resting pulse is already in the mid 40's. From today's run (85% under MAF and 97% under MAF+4 beats), that translates for me to about 10:15 miles.

I'm not real happy about trying to run consistently that slowly and may hold off on following it until the next time I base build in the spring next year.

If nothing else, it has taught me to run more slowly on recovery days. It just takes discipline. Something I've been in fairly short supply of.

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posted Aug-16-2005 10:32 PM               

1. July, 2003 - started running from scratch - did not pay any
attention to speed, pace, etc., just worked up to high mileage
over a few months, ran first marathon in November, 2003 in
4:03, never having tracked mileage or pace at all. Ended up
with chondromylacia and ITB syndrome immediately after
the race from wearing crappy running shoes and ramping up
mileage too fast. Spent time rebuilding myself, strengthening
quads, etc., then started up running again, now paying attention
to mileage.

2. Jumped into Pfitzinger's marathon program, did at least
one day of speedwork, one day of hills, and one day of tempo
run per week, ignored his rule of 10-20% slower than MRP for long training runs. After all marathon race pace was already slow for me,
why would I think of running slower in training? Every run involved
a careful look at my pace, making sure that it would never fall
below 8-8:30 min/mi - it was very important! Every few weeks I
did Yasso 800s for my speed workouts and I got to the point
where I could do 12 Yasso 800s at 3:20 (which, per Yasso theory,
would go well beyond the requirements for a 3:20 marathon).

3. March, 2004 - Shamrock Marathon, VA Beach - went for a nice
conservative 3:45, slower than my average training pace. Ran with the
3:45 pace group. This was a much easier course than my first
marathon and much, much easier than my typical 20 mile training
course. Had a solid sub 8:30 pace going into my 17 or so, then
started to burn out fast. By mile 18, I was on the verge of death.
The last 8 miles or so were excruciatingly painful and I finished in
4:23. Huh?? After all that hard work? How could I pick up the
pace so much in training and do so much worse in an easier
marathon course?

4. Back to the drawing board. Started back up with a Pfitzinger-like
training program, increasing the intensity of my workouts. Running
starting to take a toll on my body again. Was doing occasional
races, 5ks, 10ks, 1 mile, etc. 5k was around 21:30, 10k 48:30,
1 mile in 6:10.

5. Saw jjwaverly's posts on Hadd training - couldn't believe that
you could get faster by running slower, but I knew I wasn't getting
anywhere with what I was doing and my body needed a break,
so I thought I would give it a try. I followed it fairly strictly for
8 weeks. Starting pace at 70% HRMax was about 11:40/mi,
3 min/mi+ slower than my average training pace. Bore the shame
of watching all the runners I used to hit the trails with zip by me
and I had the impression that they felt sorry for me. I learned
how to eliminate my obsession with my training pace and only
judge myself by what I did in races. It was painful watching my
coolrunning average pace grow and grow from the 8:XXs to the
9:XXs, then 10s, but I learned to accept it. After 8 weeks,
however, my training pace in mild conditions improved into
the 8:50s and low 9:s. As a side note, in following the Hadd
program, I really didn't bother with a strict following of the low
HR training, so I would let it creep a bit on hills, heat, etc.,
and I would occasionally squeeze in some faster paced runs.
Because of this, I believe my success was limited and I didn't
complete the job.

6. End of July, 2004. Race season begins. What would happen
when I've done no speed training of any type, few fast runs at
all, and most runs at slower than 10 min/mi? First race,
the meet of the miles track mile - 5:36.6. Over 30 seconds
faster than my previous best in a track mile, in 85 degree
temps. Next 5k race - 20:39 - about 1 minute faster than
previous best. Next 10k a few weeks later in 45:21, about
3 minutes faster. My target race was the Baltimore Marathon
in October. After doing a lot of races between June and
October, and not paying strict attention to heart rate anymore,
I had lost a lot of my low heart rate speed, but I was still a lot
better than when I started. I did the Baltimore in 3:54 (the
toughest course I've done) in 9 min faster than my first and
almost 30 minutes faster than my previous. The next day,
I ran a 10 mile recovery run in the morning and a 10k race
in just under 48 in the afternoon. I also went on to run several
more marathons in the next couple of months, a 50 mile race
in November, and another marathon 6 days after the JFK 50
(in 3:57). So, with nothing but slow running and several
1M, 5k, and 10k races, all of my times improved, most
very significantly - and now I can tolerate a lot more mileage.

7. fast forward to Feb, 2005. I slipped on the ice while running,
landing on my knee - you know the story. Finally started back
up again, very slowly in late May, 2-3 miles at a time, pace
slower than a 15 min mi on the treadmill. Following Maffetone
strictly for at least 10 weeks. Now my pace on the TM is between
8:20 and 8:40 per mile. My outdoor pace has generally been'
between 1 and 2 min/mi slower, depending on length of run,
hills, heat, and humidity. After 10 weeks, I've started to let
about 3-5% of my running time drift up a bit.
For the last few days, I've been in San Francisco for a conference.
The progress continues and I'm absolutely thrilled with my results
yesterday and today as they're the best I've seen outside.
Yesterday, on an 11.6 mile run, average pace 9:43/mi, average
HR 137, with one mile at less than 9/mi pace. Today, on a very
similar 11.7 mile run, average pace 9:09/mi, average HR 136,
with most miles faster than 9/mi pace. I'll be doing a few long runs
while I'm here and I'm dying to see if my pace will be similar over
longer runs and maybe even see a bit more improvement. Of course,
the real story will be told in this round of races, and then next round,
after going through a second full season of dedicated MAF training.
At least today, for the first time in a while, I felt like I was moving
at a decent pace, actually passing some runners.

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posted Aug-16-2005 11:08 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:

I could do 12 Yasso 800s at 3:20 (which, per Yasso theory,
would go well beyond the requirements for a 3:20 marathon).

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You could theoretically do a 3:20 when you do the rest of Yasso's recommendation which is to fully train for a fast marathon. I read the article in Runners World.

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posted Aug-16-2005 11:20 PM               

Hopefully, someday, I can say all the stuff!

Now, perhaps what I to say is that I am a 46 *almost* year old female, who has only been running 3 years. I have just one marathon under my belt, and a layoff for achilles and ITB!! (that's what I'm still recovering from, and doing just okay with that!!)

My Maff HR should be 134 and I go up to 139. Sometimes 141. I do my VERY BEST to say where I should be.

I think that when you do Maffetone, you've gotta read his book. You have to have a mind-frame, understand the terms and conditions of this kind of base building, and willing to do it. You won't like it at first, but you will like it in the end. Running becomes easier, and your going faster, feeling good, and could keep on going.. That to me, is success!!! I don't think one should feel dead after running, or to me, at least, your not in shape to handle it. Remember, this is just my belief. I don't expect everyone to like it or do it. That's what this forum is for, learning, and trying, and seeing what works for you.....the way you want to run.

I was looking for a comfortable,strong way of building endurance. Maffetone offered me a way. What did I have to lose? I was still new to running, and wanted to run a marathon. The Maffetone Method let me do that, successful, for me, and I felt fine after that.

I think it comes down to what you want. I never cared what other thought. And if anyone would comment on my slower running, it was always someone not running!!! At least I was out there doing something! You've got to past getting over what other people think. You could be passing them a run someday, very comfortably.

Leitnjer (sp??) and I seem to be on the same page of thinking, so-to-speak. I need to talk to him about ITB!!!! (Are you a *him* or *her*??????????) I did overuse as well!!

However, as far as Maffetone, goes, read the book. It will inspire you, and you may rest your goals. If you've got the time, it's worth the try..........

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posted Aug-16-2005 11:39 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Boston124:

Leitnjer (sp??) and I seem to be on the same page of thinking, so-to-speak. I need to talk to him about ITB!!!! (Are you a *him* or *her*??????????) I did overuse as well!!

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No doubt we are on the same page. I've never enjoyed running as
much as I do now. And my cycling and swimming results go way
beyond what I would've expected. Just take a look at the "My Stuff"
link at the bottom of each of my posts and hopefully you'll be able to
guess if I'm a he or a she! :-0

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posted Aug-17-2005 07:39 AM               

I've noticed that Maffetone is one of the training programs people seem to back-off from. How did you find out about when you began?

My good friend, in New England had a biking friend tell her about it when she mentioned she wanted to run a marathon. Her success was much quicker than mine. However, she had been running for 20+ years. Her resting HR is scarey! Especially at night time...has gone as low as 25!!!

Yesterday, on my run, for some reason, I had a had time keeping my HR on my number. But I felt fine.

Tell me about your ITB. You can email me: krisinil@hotmail.com

I don't want to tie-up this thread with questions about that.

Anyway, I will continue Maff. for the next several months with hopefully a later spring marathon on my plate. It all depends on how my recovery from ITB continues, and Maff of course. But the first part is my concern, not Maff. I make progress every week.

I just started biking, too! Got my first bike on Mother's Day. It's been hard to incorporate biking when I'm running so much. Sometimes on shorter runs 4-5 miles I hop on the bike for a 45 min. ride. I have to get mroe consistent with that and watch my HR!!

Okay, I'll check in with you later, *MR. Leitner!!*

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posted Aug-17-2005 10:15 AM               

Thanks

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posted Aug-17-2005 10:23 AM               

History – 44 (soon to be 45). Running AGAIN seriously for last 2+ years. Run/Raced 5,10 & ½ Marathons, and a few sprint tri’s. Best time for the ½, this year 1:37:47

Plan for next May is to run the Ottawa National Capital Marathon. This will be my first Marathon. I want to be able to run/race the WHOLE distance. Don’t want to hit ANY wall. Hoping for a 3:30.

Past training has been mostly, if not all Anaerobic. This has work fine in the past, but I know it won’t work well for the Marathon

Training plan as follows; For the next 18-22 weeks Maf train with Hal Higdon’s Intermediate 1, for distances (maybe). I am getting a HR monitor for my 45th on Sept 2. At this point I am just learning to SLOW down. I have managed to change my morning 10k runs from 47 minutes to almost 60.

Then for the second 18 weeks, I would like to follow Hal Higdon’s Intermediate 2. Not too sure at this point what pace to do most of the training runs at. I will cross that bridge when I get to it next January.

More Later, but thanks for the inspiration to try this.

David.

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posted Aug-17-2005 11:47 AM               

quote:

---

Finally started back
up again, very slowly in late May, 2-3 miles at a time, pace
slower than a 15 min mi on the treadmill. Following Maffetone
strictly for at least 10 weeks. Now my pace on the TM is between
8:20 and 8:40 per mile.

---

I'm running 3 miles now. Four occasionally. I've only run 1 10K in my life. I'm more of a "fitness" runner I guess. My goal (longterm) would be a half marathon. At 51 I'm definitely a "BOOMER" .

So, where would I start? Alternating 2 and 3 mile runs until I speed up on the MAF formula? Or extending runs regardless of the pace @ MAF rate. I'm obviously clueless about this.

[This message has been edited by bluecru (edited Aug-17-2005).]

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posted Aug-17-2005 12:19 PM            

Very impressive results! I checked out your log, and you put in over 15 hours of training in 6 days last week, and 21 hours the week before that. I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that others can expect similar results without putting in similar work. My own experience has shown me that low-HR training at about 30 mpw is less beneficial than multi-pace training at that level. Granted, I was training for 5Ks and 10Ks, not marathons, ultras or tris.

I'm not trying to start an argument or discourage anyone from MAF training...just wanted to add another experience for a low mileage runner to the discussion.

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