posted Mar-04-2006 03:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fredurie:
Saturday
AM 15 @ around 6:55, HR 112, tired, indoor track, age 58.

---

You are my hero.

--jm

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posted Mar-04-2006 11:59 PM               

I have been reading Pfitz advanced marathoning and am considering trying this plan to prepare for my first marathon in 3 months.

My question, with regard to such plans, is how will this affect my base training I have done for nearly 6 months. I almost feel like taking on a new plan and leaving the Maff training for the spring season is like cheating on a my wife . I feel I have gained a lot from this base trianing but think I could benefit (speed) from a well devised training plan.

Do seasoned runners routinely follow this sort of plan - base training to training plan for season and back...

**edit - I also think that mixing some speedwork could help kick my weight loss. I have slowly gained weight and think my body has adjusted to my predictable running style.

Thoughts appreciated.

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[This message has been edited by hurryinhoosier (edited Mar-05-2006).]

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posted Mar-05-2006 12:38 AM               

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posted Mar-05-2006 05:44 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
Couple of updates - ran my first 10k today. Check my log for details but was pleased with pace, effort, finish.

I have been reading Pfitz advanced marathoning and am considering trying this plan to prepare for my first marathon in 3 months.

My question, with regard to such plans, is how will this affect my base training I have done for nearly 6 months. I almost feel like taking on a new plan and leaving the Maff training for the spring season is like cheating on a my wife . I feel I have gained a lot from this base trianing but think I could benefit (speed) from a well devised training plan.

Do seasoned runners routinely follow this sort of plan - base training to training plan for season and back...

**edit - I also think that mixing some speedwork could help kick my weight loss. I have slowly gained weight and think my body has adjusted to my predictable running style.

Thoughts appreciated.

---

First, congrats on the great progress! Well, keep in mind that MAF
running is first and foremost a basebuilding phase, sort of like the
time you are bringing up your child. Then you have to decide when
you're ready to let him go. Your preps will make your transition into
Pfitzinger all the more smooth. If you maintain MAF pace for most
of the recovery runs and long runs (at least for the first half or so
of the training period), you should be able to maintain most of your
base. Eventually, you may wither it away some, but that's also a
natural aspect of race season. You'll have to rebuild for next season,
but it's probably done what you want it to do for now. Good luck and
please post how things work out.

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posted Mar-05-2006 05:48 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
i did my first maffetone training yesterday (6km, 37min) and today my heart rate feels a little higher than normal. am i doing it correctly? am i supposed to feel perfectly normal?

---

One run where you have slowed down should really have almost no
effect. Are you saying you measured your rest heart rate and it's higher?
If so, there's something else going on there, such as onset of an illness
or other indicator. Now, after your first few runs where you slow down
a lot, you may experience soreness in new places, as if you have been
doing a new form of cross-training. This is natural and it will subside.
There's nothing significant about doing it correctly other than staying below
a heart rate.

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posted Mar-05-2006 12:40 PM               

avg HR = 169 overall, max of 184
7:27/151, 7:17/164, 7:34/166, 7:18/166, 7:25/166,
7:10/165, 7:05/166, 7:36/168, 7:31/166, 7:28/166,
7:14/167, 7:24/167, 7:29/169, 7:27/171, 7:38/173,
7:46/171, 7:33/175, 7:46/173, 7:44/173, 7:46/168,
7:43/173, 8:01/173, 8:02/172, 8:00/173, 7:59/171,
7:55/176, 2:17(7:52/mi)/180

Finished 28th overall (I'm not sure out of how many, probably
about 220 or so) in 3:19:37 chip, about 5 minutes faster than
my PR in November. Pretty close to McMillan's prediction
based on my 10 mile race last weekend. I still haven't gotten
around to speed work yet and this year I haven't even gotten to
fast-finish long runs.
Now getting ready for next weekend.

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posted Mar-05-2006 03:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Hey all - got a new PR today for the marathon, took it slightly
less conservatively, but still stayed under the bar, not fully
expending myself (until the last 2 miles, where I pushed it a
bit). This time, I was considering using gels since I was going
to push a bit harder, but I forgot the ones I like, so I blew it off.
I posted the race report in run & race reports, but here are my
splits with avg heart rate for those interested (reminder - my
MAF HR is 144 if I don't give myself 5 extra, HRMax is 210,
lactate threshold ~ 178:

avg HR = 169 overall, max of 184
7:27/151, 7:17/164, 7:34/166, 7:18/166, 7:25/166,
7:10/165, 7:05/166, 7:36/168, 7:31/166, 7:28/166,
7:14/167, 7:24/167, 7:29/169, 7:27/171, 7:38/173,
7:46/171, 7:33/175, 7:46/173, 7:44/173, 7:46/168,
7:43/173, 8:01/173, 8:02/172, 8:00/173, 7:59/171,
7:55/176, 2:17(7:52/mi)/180

Finished 28th overall (I'm not sure out of how many, probably
about 220 or so) in 3:19:37 chip, about 5 minutes faster than
my PR in November. Pretty close to McMillan's prediction
based on my 10 mile race last weekend. I still haven't gotten
around to speed work yet and this year I haven't even gotten to
fast-finish long runs.
Now getting ready for next weekend.

---

Nice job Jesse!

Did you plan on going out a bit faster or did you just try to maintain a constant effort?

So I'm guessing you've only had about 8-10 weeks of strictly MAF before you started racing again? Notice any differences, is the pace dropping faster this time around or is the progress about the same rate as last time?

Keep up the good work.

--jm

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posted Mar-05-2006 03:52 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by junkmiles:
Nice job Jesse!

Did you plan on going out a bit faster or did you just try to maintain a constant effort?

So I'm guessing you've only had about 8-10 weeks of strictly MAF before you started racing again? Notice any differences, is the pace dropping faster this time around or is the progress about the same rate as last time?

Keep up the good work.

--jm

---

I went out a little bit faster, and consciously decided to stay at
a few beats higher heart rate. I increased my effort slightly
throughout the race (but after about 14 miles or so, an increased
effort did not amount to increased pace!) That's correct - other than the
10 mile race last weekend and the marathon the weekend before,
everything has been pretty much strict low heart rate. The pace
seems to be improving slightly faster this time, but I'm not nearly
where I was back in November. Keep in mind also that when I
started back up last time, it was just after injury recovery so I
hadn't been running for months and I was just starting at the 2-3
miles at a stint point.

I put the pieces together for a little factoid today. I was thinking
about how much I enjoy running marathons now, compared to
just a year ago, when they were really painful. The exception
(on the enjoyment part) has been in the last 3 miles or so, when
it starts to get hard. So, in thinking about it today, I noticed that
it only really gets hard at that point if I try to maintain pace. If
I let myself naturally slow down (not tremendously, but perhaps
by 1:30 min/mile), then it can be enjoyable to the end. However,
since all was going so well today, I didn't want to waste it!

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posted Mar-05-2006 05:05 PM               

Jesse,
If you were going for maximum effort, what HR would you shoot for? How would it compare to similar effort for 10 mile, 5k, 10k? I guess one would have to have measured lactate threshold to know what HR to shoot for. In my 5k yesterday I was pacing off a guy in my age group that runs similar times. I had avg HR of 184 with a max of 194 at the end. My time was at my maximum effort. I'm just wondering how one would decided HR to shoot for at different distances if you don't know your lactate threshold.

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posted Mar-05-2006 05:20 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by crb81:

Jesse,
If you were going for maximum effort, what HR would you shoot for? How would it compare to similar effort for 10 mile, 5k, 10k? I guess one would have to have measured lactate threshold to know what HR to shoot for. In my 5k yesterday I was pacing off a guy in my age group that runs similar times. I had avg HR of 184 with a max of 194 at the end. My time was at my maximum effort. I'm just wondering how one would decided HR to shoot for at different distances if you don't know your lactate threshold.

---

This is definitely a very individual thing and I wouldn't trust any formula
other than as a general guideline. Nonetheless, these were my splits
from my 10 miler last week (unfortunately, the first two miles were
haywire with my HRM):
6:50/xx, 7:06/xx, 6:59/169, 7:02/172, 7:15/168,
7:46/171, 7:00/174, 7:13/176, 7:04/176, 6:41/181

For 10k, I would be about 3 beats higher in each mile, right up against
my LT. For 5k, a few beats higher than that.

I did not actually use my LT to pick my target heart rate. Basically,
for a marathon, I believe in using a "comfortably challenging" pace
to start out, moving to "more challenging" after about mile 15, then
very challenging after mile 20. In reality the increasing levels don't
do much more than maintain the pace you were going as best you
can. Once I find that "comfortably challenging" pace, I note the
heart rate to myself and I use it as a baseline for that race only.
For the 10 miler, I move these ambiguous levels to "hard," "harder,"
and "very hard." For a one mile race, I try to make my best assessment
of what I think I can do and I try to run by pace, observing each quarter.

I wish I could give you real information here, but it's really trial and
error. You can try the Team Oregon calculator, but that will just
help you if you have no other place to start.

Another factoid - at about mile 13 or so, I decided I was going to
set a higher target for the 16+ and 20+ regions. However, I was
just to tired to put it into practice and it was difficult just maintaining
the heart rate I had been running at from about mile 20 on (I've seen
this every time and it probably has to do with all of the races I do and
the fact that I do not taper). Then I kick it up a notch for the last
mile and give it all I've got. Incidentally, this is a major difference
from my "old days" of running marathons (i.e., last year and the
year before!) in that my glycogen stores and my aerobic system
were the limiting factor, much more than how tired I was. I would
simply hit the wall and that's it - game over.

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posted Mar-05-2006 05:50 PM            

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posted Mar-05-2006 06:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by crb81:

Jesse,
If you were going for maximum effort, what HR would you shoot for? How would it compare to similar effort for 10 mile, 5k, 10k? I guess one would have to have measured lactate threshold to know what HR to shoot for. In my 5k yesterday I was pacing off a guy in my age group that runs similar times. I had avg HR of 184 with a max of 194 at the end. My time was at my maximum effort. I'm just wondering how one would decided HR to shoot for at different distances if you don't know your lactate threshold.

---

FWIW, a very well trained runner with a big aerobic base, built up over a few years could probably run a marathon within 15bpm of their maximum, but that's because its hard to push your LT up much past 90% maxHR. For everyone else to really go all out on a marathon they would be hanging out a few beats short of LT, what ever that may be. Looks like Jesse averaged within 10bpm of his LT. Speedwork in the form of real tempo runs might help push his LT up further, but at 178 it is right in the expected range 83-85%mhr. Some VO2max work may help his economy at those higher efforts, but his base is what has carried him this far.

A 5K all out is going to be well above LT and a fast 10K will also.

--jm

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posted Mar-05-2006 08:42 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Jesse, so you never incorporate speedwork in to your training? Do you think that would benifit you? So when you race 5k do you still use your LTHR as a guide? Plz explain.

---

The main reason I haven't incorporated any speed work is because
I still haven't plateaued, i.e., my pace at low HR continues to improve.
After 5 months of low HR training, my low HR pace became faster
than my tempo pace was before I started. That's why I started hitting
PR after PR. I think of myself as following Mark Allen's approach -
follow the low HR training until you hit a plateau, then get back to
the grindstone and work on speed. Repeat. Endlessly. Mark Allen
did pretty much exclusive low HR training for over a year - his pace
under MAF was about 8:15/mile when he started and eventually hit
5:30/mile. You can imagine how one could really kick some butt in
the ironman (or any race for that matter) if pace at a very low HR were
in the 5s.

For the most part, I just run a 5k by feel (although I haven't really
raced a 5k in a while). I wouldn't get too fixated on HR in a 5k and
really not even in most races, although HR can be very helpful to
keep things under control in a marathon (and nowadays I use it
towards the end of the marathon to make sure I keep it up high
enough).

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posted Mar-05-2006 09:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
The main reason I haven't incorporated any speed work is because
I still haven't plateaued, i.e., my pace at low HR continues to improve.
After 5 months of low HR training, my low HR pace became faster
than my tempo pace was before I started. That's why I started hitting
PR after PR. I think of myself as following Mark Allen's approach -
follow the low HR training until you hit a plateau, then get back to
the grindstone and work on speed. Repeat. Endlessly. Mark Allen
did pretty much exclusive low HR training for over a year - his pace
under MAF was about 8:15/mile when he started and eventually hit
5:30/mile. You can imagine how one could really kick some butt in
the ironman (or any race for that matter) if pace at a very low HR were
in the 5s.

For the most part, I just run a 5k by feel (although I haven't really
raced a 5k in a while). I wouldn't get too fixated on HR in a 5k and
really not even in most races, although HR can be very helpful to
keep things under control in a marathon (and nowadays I use it
towards the end of the marathon to make sure I keep it up high
enough).

---

So when you do plateau, you add speed work. Than does your pace improve more at your MAFF HR(144) as well. Is their a point when your paces start to decrease at MAF HR from too much speed work? When you start speedwork, what % of your weekly mileage do you run above your MAF and at what HR's do you push?

Thanks

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posted Mar-05-2006 09:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
So when you do plateau, you add speed work. Than does your pace improve more at your MAFF HR(144) as well. Is their a point when your paces start to decrease at MAF HR from too much speed work? When you start speedwork, what % of your weekly mileage do you run above your MAF and at what HR's do you push?

Thanks

---

You should read a couple of Mark Allen's articles (listed in the
1st question of the FAQ) where he talks about that. Speed work
is still a very small percentage. I have no idea if or how much it will improve
pace under MAF HR. Indeed, if you do too much speed work you
will wear down your aerobic base. He talks about that as well.

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posted Mar-05-2006 11:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
You should read a couple of Mark Allen's articles (listed in the
1st question of the FAQ) where he talks about that. Speed work
is still a very small percentage. I have no idea if or how much it will improve
pace under MAF HR. Indeed, if you do too much speed work you
will wear down your aerobic base. He talks about that as well.

---

Thanks, that answers my questions. Funny I read those articles before.

One thing I just noticed when reading the articles. Mark Allen uses a different formula than Maffetone to dertermin max aerobic hr. I have been using a 144 bpm as my max. Thats 180-my age- 10, per Maffeton's questionnaire.On the other hand following Mark Allen's questionnaire, my max should be 154 bpm. Could 10 bpm make that much difference? Who's formula should I use?

Thanks

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posted Mar-05-2006 11:59 PM               

This was my first long run of the year with hill work (10 .25 mile hills at 3.0 incline). I was dropping speed down bigtime on the hills in order to stay under MAF. Was hugging MAF (141) the last few miles.

Getting there. Not fast. But getting there.

--Jimmy

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posted Mar-06-2006 12:19 AM            

My hr monitor kept losing signal throughout my run today. I had to run by feel over half the time. Ave hr was 1 beat over my Maf-5 target for the data it collected. My first long run of the year though at 12.2 miles in the park.

Later I was evil. My best friend who's top pace is about 7:48 has been trash talking me while I plod along at my Maf pace. Today I ran a second run with him at the gym. He finished his run, came over and looked at my machine. Before he said anything I cranked the pace to 6:40 per minute for the quarter mile of my run, while he looked on. Went way over Maf and was anaerobic, but since I did 50 miles this week and this was only a quarter mile I felt pretty good about it. Don't think I have ever run under an 8:16 pace ever before even for a short distance. I feel like the maf training gave me some top end speed as well today.

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posted Mar-06-2006 02:33 AM               

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posted Mar-06-2006 03:05 AM            

I have been on blood pressure med for about 10 years. It is a small dosage that has never increased. I see in the Maffetone article that he suggests I subtract 10 from my areobic max for the prescription med. I'm good with that, but my question is do I need to subtract further for poor areobic conditioning? I have been running off and on for about 5 years, no more than 3 days/week, not more than 20 miles/week. i periodiacally take time off running. Last fall I took 4 months off to focus on weight training, muscle building. I started running again 1/1/06.

I would appreciate any input?

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posted Mar-06-2006 04:29 AM               

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posted Mar-06-2006 05:22 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Woot way to go Jesse!

My hr monitor kept losing signal throughout my run today. I had to run by feel over half the time. Ave hr was 1 beat over my Maf-5 target for the data it collected. My first long run of the year though at 12.2 miles in the park.

Later I was evil. My best friend who's top pace is about 7:48 has been trash talking me while I plod along at my Maf pace. Today I ran a second run with him at the gym. He finished his run, came over and looked at my machine. Before he said anything I cranked the pace to 6:40 per minute for the quarter mile of my run, while he looked on. Went way over Maf and was anaerobic, but since I did 50 miles this week and this was only a quarter mile I felt pretty good about it. Don't think I have ever run under an 8:16 pace ever before even for a short distance. I feel like the maf training gave me some top end speed as well today.

---

That's great! You've put in plenty of mileage and it was indeed time
to test yourself a bit. Good for you!

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posted Mar-06-2006 05:27 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Thanks, that answers my questions. Funny I read those articles before.

One thing I just noticed when reading the articles. Mark Allen uses a different formula than Maffetone to dertermin max aerobic hr. I have been using a 144 bpm as my max. Thats 180-my age- 10, per Maffeton's questionnaire.On the other hand following Mark Allen's questionnaire, my max should be 154 bpm. Could 10 bpm make that much difference? Who's formula should I use?

Thanks

---

I still feel for starting a new that Maffetone's more conservative
formulas are the most applicable because they really ensure that
you target your aerobic system as much as possible. Stu Mittleman's
in Slow Burn even goes further in the other direction, but I really
think it only applies to people who hae been at it for a while. The
lower you go, the higher percentage of fat you use for fuel and the
higher proportion of slow twitch fibers you use vs fast twitch. Those
are the keys. Nonetheless, you've been at it for a while, so why
not sprinkle in a couple of runs during the week at 10 beats higher
just to see. 10 beats make a lot of difference (in both ways - you'll
go much faster, but use much fewer in the way of aerobic
properties).

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posted Mar-06-2006 05:30 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by corland14:
Sorry to interrupt all.

I have been on blood pressure med for about 10 years. It is a small dosage that has never increased. I see in the Maffetone article that he suggests I subtract 10 from my areobic max for the prescription med. I'm good with that, but my question is do I need to subtract further for poor areobic conditioning? I have been running off and on for about 5 years, no more than 3 days/week, not more than 20 miles/week. i periodiacally take time off running. Last fall I took 4 months off to focus on weight training, muscle building. I started running again 1/1/06.

I would appreciate any input?

---

It's really hard to say, but 15 beats is a lot to subtract. See where it
takes you. I always say, the lower the better, but there's a good
possibility that you won't even be able to walk and the wog might
be even too slow. Don't hesitate to try 10, maybe even 5 subtracted
and see if you can work down to the lower number.

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posted Mar-06-2006 05:38 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
just a few questions jesse, how many times a week do you recommend i run below my maf? i normally do it for abt 40 minutes and i plan to add 10% milage per week. also do i just consistently add milage to improve? i've read that speed will naturally come but im curious to know how will it come to you despite going at the same heart rate and increasing distance, i mean, should you just be suited more to the longer dist and mantain the same speed? just curious.

---

Unfortunately, I can't give an intelligent answer to the how many times or
how much mileage you need to run. The more the better, but you need to
be careful, as always, while you build up mileage so as no to build up too
quickly. Improvement doesn't just come in adding mileage, it comes in
consistent aerobic volume, even if at the same mileage (for a while). The
more volume, the faster the rate of improvement. Be sure to read
through the articles in the first Q of the FAQ, in particular, that from
Matt Russ, because he gives a warning that if you are a relatively new
runner, you may not see as much progress your first time trying. Most
people here have, they have just had to find "the right thing." Also, keep
in mind that the point is not to maintain the same *speed*, it's too keep
the heart rate down. The idea is that your speed will improve at the lower
heart rates as your aerobic system develops.

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Mar-06-2006).]

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