posted Feb-25-2006 06:30 PM               

1. because you want to and the pains of such training outweigh the benefits for you. It probably wasn't for you in the first place.

2. improvement in speeds at low heart rate has stopped or
even gone in the wrong direction, consistently for a week or
two.

3. you have reached your target race. Since you're likely not
to run any race below MAF, well, this is obvious.

4. you are within 2-3 weeks of your target race and you're
concerned that you forgot how to run fast.

5. It's been at least 12 weeks and you simply feel it's time
to move on.

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posted Feb-25-2006 09:22 PM            

My max heart rate is about 187 and resting heart rate today was 44.

My heart rate during this hike max 170 average 156 and this was WALKING. Almost 3000 foot elevation climb over 3.5 miles up then the same back down plus a mile back to the house.

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posted Feb-26-2006 10:17 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Well went on a hike today and exceeded my Maf target of 126 beats per minute by a tad.

My max heart rate is about 187 and resting heart rate today was 44.

My heart rate during this hike max 170 average 156 and this was WALKING. Almost 3000 foot elevation climb over 3.5 miles up then the same back down plus a mile back to the house.

---

yeah, those hill climbs can easily be more stressing than
running on flat ground!

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posted Feb-26-2006 10:26 AM               

I felt so good with a half mile left, I sprinted at about
5:10-5:20/mile pace. This is great, because it predicts
faster 5k and 10k than my current PRs, as well as a
faster marathon. On one of the toughest courses around
while running quite conservatively. In fact, I was talking
with a friend of mine for about 4 miles in the middle. Also,
I ran a marathon last week, went back to normal training
schedule, including my 20 miler yesterday. This race was
the only thing I've done this year that has approached
"speed work." Stick with it and it will pay off!

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posted Feb-26-2006 11:26 AM               

Jesse,
Your an animal. Did my second 5 mile MAF test today since starting low HR training 5 weeks ago. Did 5 miles at 10:15 pace with HR of 132. I did have a 30 second drift though. That compares to 5 mile test 2 weeks ago at 11:15 pace and HR of 132 with little drift. What all were you tested for when you did that treadmill test last year? Found a gym near by that does some kind of treadmil tests. Going to find out the details tomorrow.

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posted Feb-26-2006 11:36 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by crb81:

Jesse,
Your an animal. Did my second 5 mile MAF test today since starting low HR training 5 weeks ago. Did 5 miles at 10:15 pace with HR of 132. I did have a 30 second drift though. That compares to 5 mile test 2 weeks ago at 11:15 pace and HR of 132 with little drift. What all were you tested for when you did that treadmill test last year? Found a gym near by that does some kind of treadmil tests. Going to find out the details tomorrow.

---

do you mean my vo2max test? If so, you can read about it
in the "exercise testing" icon at Total Performance Inc.
Basically, you keep a snorkle-like device in your mouth with a tube
connected to some equipment (and head gear to hold everything in
place) and they measure your oxygen uptake and carbon dioxide
exhaust, along with heart rate, over a range of exertion levels until you
ultimately hit your limit and fail. So, you get quantities such as vo2,
heart rate, and respiratory quotient (aka respiratory exchange ratio) - tells
you how much carb vs fat you are using at each level of effort. A
basic treadmill test generally will measure your heart rates over the
range to determine your "near" max heart rate, but not likely how you
are consuming oxygen and exhausting CO2.

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posted Feb-26-2006 01:04 PM               

I was *really* happy with my HR even though it's still much higher than last fall. Friday I did a 15 min Z1 (below 130bpm) which was a min per mile faster than 5 weeks ago *and* my HR was not so close to top of my limit.

Anyway, here are my race splits with HR. My hips are out of whack and I couldn't get a PT visit till Tuesday so I did some walk breaks and stopped and walked at every water station, which are noted. Most of my training runs are at 150 or below. I maxed at 177 in the race. I flew down the hills!

9.03 157
9.25 161
9.47 158 brought pace back down
9.56 156 walk
10.19 151 water
9.27 149
10.57 154 walk half hill
10.30 155 walk half hill
10.20 151 water
9.23 157
9.05 161
10.06 161 water
9.47 168 more hills (no walk)
8.50 174 last hill (no walk)

I finished in 2:09. I had planned on 10's and turned the "HR too high" beep off on the 301. My avg HR was 156.

My half in October was in 1:58 and pretty flat & pouring. Avg HR was 165. I feel less stiff today than I did back then.

Guess my winter training is paying off!

Diane

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posted Feb-27-2006 12:32 AM            

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posted Feb-27-2006 12:39 AM               

The last two times I ran outside without walk breaks on a flat bike trail, without wind:

1/20/06 7 miles 11:33
1/22/06 15 miles 12:02

Getting there. Slowly creeping toward the 10's.

The race is a good cold weather half, 10k, and full marathon (two loops) on beautiful Cape Cod. Went up for the weekend. Drove up to the tip of the Cape and Provincetown. The dunes are incredibly beautiful and otherworldly.

--Jimmy

My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

My Running World

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posted Feb-27-2006 12:48 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by diane143:
I ran a half yesterday as a training run.....

Guess my winter training is paying off!

Diane

---

Excellent, Diane! Was that the Hyannis?

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

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posted Feb-27-2006 08:11 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

Excellent, Diane! Was that the Hyannis?

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

---

It was the Colchester HM in CT. Part of the Hartford Track Club winter series.

The really interesting thing is that I hired a coach to get me through 12 weeks of training before my mtb race season starts. DH has been using him for over a yr for Ironman training. He has me doing so much strength and conditioning that my weekly miles have dropped - to under 20mpw! Part of that is because I've had a hard time grasping the circuit training which has a lot of running intervals as well. Then I messed up my last long (2 hr) run to the blizzard, only got in an hour. So I did about 9 miles last weekend, but as luck would have it, it was in 2 sessions as the group I ran with first only did about 5.

So I was really worried about finishing this one OK, which was one of the reasons I did the walk breaks. I seriously considered not doing it but figured I could always walk the last few miles if I had to.

I forgot to mention I didn't take any gu although I had one with me. Coach also has me doing speed work for the first time and I experimented at the last mile, which as you can see was my quickest and it was uphill.

For the newbies, I would not recommend doing a half at my current weekly milage without guidance. All my runs currently are by time and HR. I am putting in about 10 hours of training per week.

Diane

[This message has been edited by diane143 (edited Feb-27-2006).]

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posted Feb-28-2006 11:08 AM               

I would like to add more volume of exercise to "speed up" my aerobic progress.

I have a stationary recumbent bike at home I would like to use. After reading Slow Burn, the lowest I should exercise at is 116bpm. Yesterday, I tried the bike and had to pedal like a total mad man to get my heart rate over 100.

What should I be doing on the bike to get heart rate up? High resistance? Low resistance? Exercise a long time? High speed and high resistance the entire time?

Sorry if these are silly questions. I've never "biked" before. Also, would this apply the same if I were to ride a real bike outside? Would my heart rate rise faster?

A real bike won't be an option until it gets warmer out.

For background: I am a 34 year old male. For running, I'm using Mittleman's formula and keeping HR below 136. I'm currently running/wogging 14 minute miles for the past 3 weeks.

Thanks

Rich

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posted Feb-28-2006 12:25 PM               

I like the bike for recovery work outs but I don't even get my HR up to 60% of the max. I think it also defeats the purpose of a recovery work out or easy work out if you make your legs burn like heck. I now do the StairMaster because it gets my heart rate up higher without the pounding.

Now, outdoor biking is different. My heart rate elevates with the wind resistance.

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posted Feb-28-2006 06:13 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by BigDaddy2:
I have a quesion regarding x-trainning. I know that while doing Maffetone base-building that all exercise should be done at or below Maff.

I would like to add more volume of exercise to "speed up" my aerobic progress.

I have a stationary recumbent bike at home I would like to use. After reading Slow Burn, the lowest I should exercise at is 116bpm. Yesterday, I tried the bike and had to pedal like a total mad man to get my heart rate over 100.

What should I be doing on the bike to get heart rate up? High resistance? Low resistance? Exercise a long time? High speed and high resistance the entire time?

Sorry if these are silly questions. I've never "biked" before. Also, would this apply the same if I were to ride a real bike outside? Would my heart rate rise faster?

A real bike won't be an option until it gets warmer out.

For background: I am a 34 year old male. For running, I'm using Mittleman's formula and keeping HR below 136. I'm currently running/wogging 14 minute miles for the past 3 weeks.

Thanks

Rich

---

The only way I get any kind of workout at all that's nearly comparable
to riding the bike outside on the big hills around here is to set the thing
at a level 20 (or other highest level) hill setting. You should get to
the point where it's at least a little bit difficult to suppress your heart
rate that way.

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posted Mar-01-2006 07:48 PM               

I was thinking maybe just get out and run at a pace somewhere around my MAFF plus 10-20? Does that sound about right?

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posted Mar-01-2006 07:52 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by blakester:
I've been running using MAFF now for the last 3 months in order to get ready for some spring 10Ks and I am now ready to begin adding some quicker pace runs. Any recommendations on what pace, speeds to run for the first time out after running at my ever so slow pace of 14mpm with my 136 MAFF? The last thing I want to do is start too quickly and come up with and injury.

I was thinking maybe just get out and run at a pace somewhere around my MAFF plus 10-20? Does that sound about right?

---

I would recommend that you start out by picking one of your weekly
runs, preferably your longest, and run the last, 2-3 miles of it at what
you find to be a "comfortably challenging pace," which will probably
be about 20-30 beats over MAF. I would do it more by feel and just
take note of what HR you end up at, rather than picking a heart rate
and sticking to it.

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posted Mar-01-2006 09:01 PM               

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posted Mar-01-2006 10:04 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by blakester:
Thanks for the response, that gives me something to start with. Would my other runs be run back at an easy pace keeping my runs in my MAFF zone? I'm really following any specific training plan, but don't most call for the majority of the runs to be "easy"?

---

Yes, you should try to keep most of your runs under MAF. After
you've sufficiently developed your aerobic system, you can mix in
a few different zones and still maintain your aerobic base as long
as a good majority of your mileage is aerobic.

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posted Mar-01-2006 10:23 PM               

I posted a few weeks ago and it was suggested that if I need to walk to hold MAF...I need to walk!

Running between MAF-2 and MAF+5 for about 8 weeks...average mileage around 25 mi/wk (and I still hate it!).

Did my first MAF test on the treadmill tonight...

Mile 1 MAF+2 12:12
Mile 2 MAF+2 12:17
Mile 3 MAF+3 12:17
Mile 4 MAF+2 12:15
Mile 5 MAF+3 12:13

I also ran ran an out and back (at around MAF+5) and tracked HR/Pace (as was posted by "junkmiles" in this thread last week) for a 7.5 mile run on Sunday...HR/Pace increase was less than 1% on the return leg.

Does this HR stability suggest I am not going to get any better?!?! Or does it just mean it is time to mix in some faster work. I am still walking up some of the steeper hills on my route(s).

Thanks for your insight

dc

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posted Mar-02-2006 12:39 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by run2live99:
I haven't read everything on this thread yet but, from what I have read, I think I might be ready for a change!

I posted a few weeks ago and it was suggested that if I need to walk to hold MAF...I need to walk!

Running between MAF-2 and MAF+5 for about 8 weeks...average mileage around 25 mi/wk (and I still hate it!).

Did my first MAF test on the treadmill tonight...

Mile 1 MAF+2 12:12
Mile 2 MAF+2 12:17
Mile 3 MAF+3 12:17
Mile 4 MAF+2 12:15
Mile 5 MAF+3 12:13

I also ran ran an out and back (at around MAF+5) and tracked HR/Pace (as was posted by "junkmiles" in this thread last week) for a 7.5 mile run on Sunday...HR/Pace increase was less than 1% on the return leg.

Does this HR stability suggest I am not going to get any better?!?! Or does it just mean it is time to mix in some faster work. I am still walking up some of the steeper hills on my route(s).

Thanks for your insight

dc

---

First of all, why have you chosen to do this type of training? Do you have some kind of goal? Why do you hate it?

I'm not sure I understand your 1% rise in HR/pace. What went up by 1%? Heart rate or pace? What do you mean by stability?

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

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posted Mar-02-2006 04:49 AM               

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posted Mar-02-2006 06:54 AM               

1. I've had chronic hamstring problems for the past 3 three years
2. My last 4 half marathons (over two years) have been disappointing with progressively longer times. 1:43, 1:46, 1:47, 1:48 (last few kilometers over 7 minutes each due to cramping)
3. My last two marathons I struggled to finish...walking the last few miles with bad cramping in my calves.
4. Recent training runs, up to January when I started MAF, seemed to be taking much greater effort for llittle to no return and my HR was higher than in the past.

Basically, I was feeling tired and worn out. I think part of it was the fact that I was on Lipitor and it took me a year to figure out it was dramatically affecting my recovery. I finally went off it in favor of a natural solution.

I think that this process has helped me recover but I am not sure what the next steps are to try and improve. At this speed (around 11:00 on the road at MAF+2) I can't find enough time to bump miles up! LOL. I would like to qualify for Boston...need a 3:30 My Marathon PR 3 years ago is 3:56 and my half PR is 1:43 two years ago.

By stable HR, I mean I have very little drift over time. Even up to 10 miles at MAF+3 my times hold fairly constant over the entire run

I hate it because I always feel like I am holding back, and it goes against my intuition that says...to run faster, you have to run faster. I also always feel like I need a good workout.

Thanks for your interest!

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posted Mar-02-2006 08:09 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by run2live99:
I chose to try Maffetone training for a number of reasons:

1. I've had chronic hamstring problems for the past 3 three years
2. My last 4 half marathons (over two years) have been disappointing with progressively longer times. 1:43, 1:46, 1:47, 1:48 (last few kilometers over 7 minutes each due to cramping)
3. My last two marathons I struggled to finish...walking the last few miles with bad cramping in my calves.
4. Recent training runs, up to January when I started MAF, seemed to be taking much greater effort for llittle to no return and my HR was higher than in the past.

Basically, I was feeling tired and worn out. I think part of it was the fact that I was on Lipitor and it took me a year to figure out it was dramatically affecting my recovery. I finally went off it in favor of a natural solution.

I think that this process has helped me recover but I am not sure what the next steps are to try and improve. At this speed (around 11:00 on the road at MAF+2) I can't find enough time to bump miles up! LOL. I would like to qualify for Boston...need a 3:30 My Marathon PR 3 years ago is 3:56 and my half PR is 1:43 two years ago.

By stable HR, I mean I have very little drift over time. Even up to 10 miles at MAF+3 my times hold fairly constant over the entire run

I hate it because I always feel like I am holding back, and it goes against my intuition that says...to run faster, you have to run faster. I also always feel like I need a good workout.

Thanks for your interest!

---

One positive so far is that you are feeling less worn out. Are your hamstrings still bothering you?

Whenever I hear someone say that they hate "holding back" when doing any kind of lower HR zones, I try to point out that you have come to this training for a reason:

Twas in another lifetime
one of toil and blood
when fast training was a virtue
and the road was full of thick freakin mud
I came in from the marathon
cramped and slowing down
Come in MAF might give you
shelter form the storm

Sorry, I couldn't hold back that distorted Dylan from his beautiful "Shelter From The Storm." And I apologize to Bob for mangling his lyrics in such an amateur way (and I apologize if I've spelled amateur wrong--it's one of those words that need to need to be simplified in my opinion).

You have chosen to do this because you are hoping to find some way of training that not only helps you progress in you marathons, but doesn't beat the crap out of your legs. If you keep in mind that you are trying to create a new reality with this method, then your vision should see you through these initial, temporary slow periods. I assure you, it is temporary. Already, I am seeing progress; I started in January as well.
Look at my Maffetone link and you'll see this is true.

I'd just like to point out that you aren't really giving this training your best effort. The proper way to do it is to be averaging under MAF, or at the most at your MAF, not MAF +3 or MAF +5. I can't say for sure that this is impeding your aerobic process, but it might be a variable. If you're going to do this training, I suggest you stick to what the rules are to see if it really works or not. If you're raising the HR ceiling just so you can go faster, then it might be defeating the point. Then again (cliche alert) a man or woman's gotta do what they gotta do.

I understand the time issue, and when running 12 minute miles, as opposed to 9 minute miles, there is a difference. But (cliche alert) where there is a will, there is a way. If you can start building miles on just one run a week by 5-10%, that willl stimulate progress. It's the long runs that really make a difference.

My suggestion to you and anyone else who is frustrated with the "slowness" in the initial stages, is to remember why you are doing this:
what you were doing before was not working.

So, RELAX. Enjoy the fact that you are feeling better already. Enjoy the process, and enter your experiment with joy and the spirit of discovery and fun. The worst that is going to happen is that nothing happens, and you've eliminated a possible method.

Good luck!

--Jimmy

My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

My Running World

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Mar-02-2006).]

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posted Mar-02-2006 08:10 AM               

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posted Mar-02-2006 08:34 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
regarding this maffetone training, for how long a duration do i need to mantain this training at my target HR using the 180 formula for it to be effective? also how many times a week would be optimal? thanks in advance

---

I suggest that you read Training For Endurance by Dr. Phil Maffetone to get educated:

http://www.pccoach.com/products/books/book_fit_t4e.htm

You can also look at LEitnerj's FAQ for more links and answers.

It all depends on what your vision is, and what you are trying to do.

Some people are trying to focus just on building their aerobic endurance.
The idea of this training is to develope your slow twitch, fat-burning fibers to a point where you are burning more fat when you run races.
The author (Maffetone) believes that you should work ALL YOUR MILES under your MAF until your training pace stops progressing, then add anaerobic work like intervals, tempo, and lactate threshold runs for a period of 4 weeks. Then get to the business of racing. Keeping your runs under MAF in between races, with a minimal of anaerobic work. Then after a period of hard racing, get back to developing your aerobic system again. You will find that after a season of racing your aerobic system has degraded a bit (your pace at your MAF will have gotten slower), and it needs to be recharged.

It's a matter of what you are willing to do to see if this works or not. Some people don't have the patience to really give this training method a real try, as almost everyone will find that they are running much slower in their training than they ever have. Even though the author, Mark Allen, Stu Mittleman, Leitnerj and others have said that this slow pace is temporary, it doesn't sit well with some people's egos. So, if you're interested, be prepared that you will be going slow for a few months.
Look at Leitnej's training log and you'll see that he went from 12:00 minute miles down to as low as 7:56 at the same MAF HR on a particular benchmark run. This took 6 months, but looks like it was worth his time. All his race times improved dramatically.

--Jimmy

My Running World
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