posted Feb-09-2006 08:41 PM               

I feel like I am progressing better as I add longer runs.

Do others see good progress by remaining static with the number of miles / long run distance each week?

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posted Feb-09-2006 09:06 PM               

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posted Feb-09-2006 10:28 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Sounds like a good plan. What I really enjoyed doing for my last two marathons was lactate threshold runs and marathon tempo runs. I lifted them from the Pfitzinger book. The LT runs are run for 20-40 minutes between 80-90% MHR. After a few warm-up miles, you can get your HR up to 80%. Keep the pace steady and you'll be up to 90% by the end of the run. The two tempo runs were 12 (of 15 total) and 14 (of 16) miles long at dream marathon pace. The dream pace was based on what I got from the Team Oregon Pace Wizard based on a recent 10k PR. In my case this was 7:50-8:00 miles. These two tempo runs will prepare you well. I did very little interval taining. I don't think it's that necessary for the marathon. Plus, it tends to really zap my legs when I'm also doing 20-milers. I did the race-pace tempo runs on weeks in between long run weeks. Not the same week.

BTW, in May at VCM I wasn't able to hold the 7:50-8:00 pace, but in November at Philly, I held it the whole way. No wall. It's a great memory.

Good luck. Keep us posted on your progress. Which marathon?
How many miles? (just kidding--I get that question all the time from the Muggles and I always reply that a marathon is 26.2 miles and the first 26 miles are easy, but the last .2 is the toughest.)

--Jimmy

My Running World

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Feb-09-2006).]

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This is just a local marathon located in Frederick Maryland. I ran it once before. It is billed as gently rolling hills, and I guess thats true. I'm used to more hills than the marathon, so I hope that will be helpful.
Thanks for the info at Oregon Pace Wizard. That is great info!

BTW This particular marathon isn't 26.2 miles, it happens to be 42.16k The first 42k are easy, it's the last .16k that is the toughest. :

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posted Feb-10-2006 05:20 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Ksabbo:
This is just a local marathon located in Frederick Maryland. I ran it once before. It is billed as gently rolling hills, and I guess thats true. I'm used to more hills than the marathon, so I hope that will be helpful.

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Maybe it was like that when you ran it last, but the Frederick can
sometimes be very HOT! Make sure you get some warm-weather
long distance running in beforehand, as time gets closer.

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posted Feb-10-2006 09:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
Curious about the progress of others with MAF as it related to increasing distance.

I feel like I am progressing better as I add longer runs.

Do others see good progress by remaining static with the number of miles / long run distance each week?

---

longer the better (up to a point). At an easy pace, you are trading off intensity for time. Low intensity adaptations are primarily a function of how long (time) you run.

Jesse's dramatic improvement in 5months was, in large part, based on his volume. He would have had a harder time running (biking and swimming) that much at higher intensities.

BTW, nice job on the progress (per your chart), pretty satisfying isn't it. .

--jm

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posted Feb-10-2006 09:55 AM               

One period was my Hadd period when I was doing multi HR zones, no speedwork, and about 3 all-out races. This period started in May 2004 and ran through October 31st.

The second set are some recovery runs that I started doing during marathon training for Philly after reading the Maffetone thread. I was doing multi-zones, speedwork, the whole Pfitzinger 9 yards with LT runs, V02max intervals, long tempo runs, and long runs that finished at about 83% HRR or 78% HRR.

HADD PERIOD:

This was a zone that peaked at 135 ave. HR
My starting pace in this zone was 13:30 per mile.

Date_____Miles____Pace___Highest Ave HR
10/9/04_____7______9:53____135
10/15/04____7______9:49____135

PFITZINGER PERIOD:

Started using his zones in January 2005. His recovery zone is 70%HRR and below, which equated to my 77% MHR and below. Using that zone, I started out at 10:00 pace and got as low as 8:57 by May. I was at the same pace in this 77% zone in September and October as well. I didn't incorporate Maffetone runs until September. My MAF is 141, and did about 7 Maff runs to rest my beat-up legs. Below are the best.

Date_____Miles____Pace___Highest Ave HR
9/17/05_____7_____9:32_____136
9/25/05_____9_____9:24_____139
10/13/05____7_____9:32_____136

ALL--MAFFETONE:
My current best during this ALL-Maffetone, one-zone period. My best since January 3rd. My best pace (no walk breaks) in the first few weeks for 4 miles with top ave. HR of 137 was 11:08.

Date_____Miles____Pace___Highest Ave HR

2/2/06_____5_____10:57_____135
2/9/06_____5_____10:28_____136

With Hadd, it took me aprox. 6 months to get down to the 9:49 pace.

The Pfitzinger period was basically two sessions with a 8-week summer racing season in between. My best paces in the Pfitzinger 77% MHR zone was the same for both seasons. Since that is true, I'm assuming that my MAFF paces would have been the same in the Spring session.

So, using multi-zones, my 136 (MAFF-5) pace got as low as 9:24.

It should be said that Pfitz considers 83% and below to still be aerobic.During the Pfitz periods, 90% of my miles were 83% MHR (MAFF +22) and below. 80% of those miles were MAFF +10 and below.

Now, the goal of my current all-Maffetone experiment is to see how low I can get my 136 (MAF -5) pace in comparable time periods. I want to see what effects I'll experience using this zone exclusively for at least 12 weeks. For week 13, I'm considering attempting an LT run at 90% HRR, and a few long runs maxing out at 83% MHR to see if running in this one MAFF zone has affected the paces in the higher zones. If so, then I should see paces that equal the best paces I was running in the aformentioned zones during the Pfitzinger period.

Wow. Another statsgasm.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

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posted Feb-10-2006 11:07 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Maybe it was like that when you ran it last, but the Frederick can
sometimes be very HOT! Make sure you get some warm-weather
long distance running in beforehand, as time gets closer.

---

I KNOW!!! It snowed the first year (march marathon), they scheduled it later (April) the second year. I ran it the second year and it was awful weather. The temps rose 20+ degrees. I was laboring even before the half and bonked at 20. I finished at 4:32 and my goal was 4:10 There were no warmer days to train leading up to the race due to the time of year. Hopefully this year will be better.
Karen

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posted Feb-10-2006 05:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I went back into my HR training past and picked out my best recovery runs from different periods of training. These runs either equate to my Maffetone paces and HR, or were actually Maff runs.

Now, the goal of my current all-Maffetone experiment is to see how low I can get my 136 (MAF -5) pace in comparable time periods. I want to see what effects I'll experience using this zone exclusively for at least 12 weeks. For week 13, I'm considering attempting an LT run at 90% HRR, and a few long runs maxing out at 83% MHR to see if running in this one MAFF zone has affected the paces in the higher zones. If so, then I should see paces that equal the best paces I was running in the aformentioned zones during the Pfitzinger period.

---

Interesting data. It'll be nice to see where your maffetone experiment comes out.

On that upcoming LT run: 90%HRR is kind of high isn't it?

How many tries did it take you to nail down an accurate maxHR?

--jm

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posted Feb-10-2006 06:15 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by junkmiles:
longer the better (up to a point). At an easy pace, you are trading off intensity for time. Low intensity adaptations are primarily a function of how long (time) you run.

Jesse's dramatic improvement in 5months was, in large part, based on his volume. He would have had a harder time running (biking and swimming) that much at higher intensities.

BTW, nice job on the progress (per your chart), pretty satisfying isn't it. .

--jm

---

no doubt, the volume paid off! It is indeed nice making progress -
I'm just hoping I can get back to where I was in November. I have
my first marathon of the year next weekend. I'm going to take it easy -
I'm not near where I was last November, but I'm inching closer, trying
to keep my patience (it never gets much easier).

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posted Feb-10-2006 09:01 PM            

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posted Feb-10-2006 09:24 PM               

The pace and HR on the "Easy Effort Training Run" chart have me running either at a pace much slower than the suggested pace at a certain HR, or if I target the suggested HR, my pace would be fairly faster than their suggestion. Does this mean this chart is useless for me? I am assuming that if the "easy effort" chart isn't accurate for me, the "speed work pace" and "Interval paces" would be inaccurate also.

Could this inaccuracy be attributed to increased fittness (due to Maff training), which would make my recent race time inconsequential and throw the whole chart off? Is there some knd of compensating factor I can include? Should I maybe redo the chart with an "estimated race time" that I THINK I could do?

Thanks, Karen

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posted Feb-10-2006 09:31 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
Curious about the progress of others with MAF as it related to increasing distance.

I feel like I am progressing better as I add longer runs.

Do others see good progress by remaining static with the number of miles / long run distance each week?

---

By the way, I just graphed your pace from when you started
your log to today. 1 min/mile improvement in weekly avg
pace so far - that's great. Also, your 22:xx 5k is particularly
good since you hadn't done any fast running, really, no speed
work, and you hadn't raced before. I know that I became faster
in many races after a lot of "slow" running, but I at least had a
history of running many races and doing months of speedwork.
It's quite interesting to see that you did very little running at
all faster than 9-10 min/mile and you were able to sustain the
low 7s for 5k.

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posted Feb-10-2006 11:29 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
It's quite interesting to see that you did very little running at
all faster than 9-10 min/mile and you were able to sustain the
low 7s for 5k.

---

Did I mention I tasted my breakfast again at the end? Yes, gross but I have never felt so beat to hell in my life. I felt fine after like 10 mins of walking but thought I was going to die corssing the line

Anyhow, I am very stoked by my progress. My goal is to run the 1/2 marathon in may in 1:45. This would be 1/2 hour faster than two years ago when I did not know how to run or train. The fact I have run over 10 miles 4 times in the last month is exciting to me. Can't wait for my long run Sunday.

Thanks for the encouragement.

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posted Feb-10-2006 11:44 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by junkmiles:
Interesting data. It'll be nice to see where your maffetone experiment comes out.

On that upcoming LT run: 90%HRR is kind of high isn't it?

How many tries did it take you to nail down an accurate maxHR?

--jm

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oooooooops.
90% Mhr or 88% HRR.

Back in May 2004 I tried a track test ala HAdd once. I carded a 184. All my training was actually aprox. 5% slower than thought. Then I ran a half marathon in September where I held back at a marathon training pace for 10 miles. I then kept speeding up until the last 3/4's of a mile I was running as hard as I could. Especially the last half mile. I thought my heart would burst through my chest. I carded a 195. Steady.
Wouldn't go any higher, I couldn't run any faster, and I never relaxed the pace. So, I've gone with that ever since.

P.S. Did my fastest 10-miler with walk breaks (running 4 minutes/walking 1 at 13:02 pace) today in 11:31. Paces are definitely dropping quickly.
Also my HR is rising much slower and am able to stay under MAF-5 ish without having to slow down.Just as Elder Jesse has reported what would probably happen.

*wb=walk breaks
1/12/06...10 miles*wb...............12:12...Highest Ave. Hr=140
1/18/06...10 miles..(all running)..11:45..Highest Ave. Hr=139
1/29/06...10 miles*wb...............12:51...Highest Ave. Hr=136
2/1/06.....10 miles*wb...............11:58...Highest Ave. Hr=135
2/3/06.....10 miles*wb...............11:41...Highest Ave. Hr=135
2/10/06...10 miles*wb................11:31...Highest Ave. Hr=137

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

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posted Feb-11-2006 05:44 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
Did I mention I tasted my breakfast again at the end?

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That means that you know how to use all you've got!

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posted Feb-11-2006 10:16 AM               

Were these on same day as long run would have been?

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posted Feb-11-2006 06:25 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ksabbo:
I printed off the Team Oregon Pace Wizard and I have a question.....

The pace and HR on the "Easy Effort Training Run" chart have me running either at a pace much slower than the suggested pace at a certain HR, or if I target the suggested HR, my pace would be fairly faster than their suggestion. Does this mean this chart is useless for me? I am assuming that if the "easy effort" chart isn't accurate for me, the "speed work pace" and "Interval paces" would be inaccurate also.

Could this inaccuracy be attributed to increased fittness (due to Maff training), which would make my recent race time inconsequential and throw the whole chart off? Is there some knd of compensating factor I can include? Should I maybe redo the chart with an "estimated race time" that I THINK I could do?

Thanks, Karen

---

Any comments would be helpful

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posted Feb-11-2006 06:55 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ksabbo:
Any comments would be helpful

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I would only use the Team Oregon calculator as a general
guideline for racing, and be careful even for that. It tells
me I should run my marathon pace at 3 beats above lactate
threshold, which is fine for the last 3 miles of the marathon.
It has a decent prediction for my 5k speed, but it has my
heart rate about 25 beats high.
It also has most of my other paces pretty far off. I think it
may have issues when you have a higher than average
max heart rate, which I do. It does give some reasonable
values if I enter in my best 1 mile race time as opposed to
my longer distance times. I don't think it factors in heat,
humidity, or hills well. Are you looking
for an alternative to Maffetone training, or are you looking for
guidance as to how fast you should run in a particular race?
I do recall it being a bit closer to reality about a year ago, so
who knows how the Maffetone training factors in.

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posted Feb-11-2006 09:53 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
Are you looking
for an alternative to Maffetone training, or are you looking for
guidance as to how fast you should run in a particular race?

---

I plan on completing the Maffetone base training for the next two weeks. That will bring me to 12 weeks. Then I want to mix in some tempo runs and a little bit of other faster running in preparation for my end of April marathon. I really have no basis of determining what HR to target for tempo runs as well as a race pace. I don't know what my max HR is, so I have to estimate it. I was hoping to use a comprehensive guide such as the "Team Oregon Pace Wizard" to guide me. Perhaps there is a better way?
Thanks, Karen

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posted Feb-11-2006 10:14 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ksabbo:
I plan on completing the Maffetone base training for the next two weeks. That will bring me to 12 weeks. Then I want to mix in some tempo runs and a little bit of other faster running in preparation for my end of April marathon. I really have no basis of determining what HR to target for tempo runs as well as a race pace. I don't know what my max HR is, so I have to estimate it. I was hoping to use a comprehensive guide such as the "Team Oregon Pace Wizard" to guide me. Perhaps there is a better way?
Thanks, Karen

---

Well, if you don't give the Team Oregon Pace Wizard your max heart rate,
it's going to estimate it using a standard formula, which could easily be
30 beats away, and your results will be arbitrary. If you're just trying to
find your tempo pace, I would suggest you run a 10k (or two) and a half
marathon, and derive it from your performance on those. The pace
wizard is only as good as the data that you put into it, so if you don't
have max heart rate and at least a couple of good representative race
times (actually, one will probably do), you can't expect it to give you
anything useful to work with.

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posted Feb-11-2006 10:38 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, if you don't give the Team Oregon Pace Wizard your max heart rate,
it's going to estimate it using a standard formula, which could easily be
30 beats away, and your results will be arbitrary. If you're just trying to
find your tempo pace, I would suggest you run a 10k (or two) and a half
marathon, and derive it from your performance on those. The pace
wizard is only as good as the data that you put into it, so if you don't
have max heart rate and at least a couple of good representative race
times (actually, one will probably do), you can't expect it to give you
anything useful to work with.

---

Hi Jesse, I do have a good representative race time obtained about 4-5 weeks before starting maff. That's what I used on the calculator along with my age and resting HR. It just seems as though the suggested paces don't correlate with the HR's and vice versa.
Karen

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posted Feb-11-2006 11:08 PM            

Karen, have you tried McMillan? The link is above. It doesn't use heart rate, but gives decent estimated finish times and training times based on your recent race times. All estimates are based on perfect weather and a flat course.

Cash

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posted Feb-12-2006 08:10 AM               

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posted Feb-12-2006 12:03 PM            

I bought a HR monitor in early December (@10 weeks ago) and began training with it then. I followed Roy Benson’s program for a couple weeks before I stumbled onto this site. I liked what I read so about 8 weeks ago I began running at MAF + 5 (141), which according to Mark Allen’s chart was the right HR for me. At a pace two minutes slower than average, and a little biomechanically uncomfortable, I kept at it for two weeks. Then, after reading these postings, I decided to slow down to MAF + 0 (136) and went to the track to see what I could run. This was six-and-a-half weeks ago. I ran the three-mile test. Here are my results:

Mile 1: 9:50
Mile 2: 10:12
Mile 3: 10:34

So, okay, now I had some times to go by. I also ran a 3.32 mile loop around my neighborhood twice that same week, once before the MAF test and once a couple days after it. I ran both within two seconds of each other at 34:34 and 34:32 or @10:24 pace.

Over the next couple of weeks I occasionally ran the same loop and noted that I was running slower. First at 36:00 and then 36:16 a few days later or @10:55 pace. All my other runs—different routes--which I log each day seemed to be getting slower too at the MAF HR. So I asked for some advice here and a couple folks suggested I slow down a bit and be patient. Good things, I was essentially told, come to those who wog.

So, I consciously slowed down a bit for the next two weeks and then set my watch to MAF –3 (that was all I could stand) and made a conscience effort to run even slower with chunks of my runs at MAF –8 or –10. I also added a longer Sunday run to my plate. With hills everywhere around here, I walked often and never cheated, but my HR did bounce around a lot between 124-133. Of course, my times have been even slower (@ 11:30-12:30 pace) with the lower HR.

Now, shoot ahead another two-and-half weeks to this morning. I decided that since it has been about 6-and-one-half weeks since my MAF test and three weeks since I ran my last MAF loop, that I would set my watch back up to MAF 136 and see how fast I could run the 3.32 mile MAF loop. Well, I ran it in 36:00 or @ 1:30 slower than 6 weeks ago. My pace was 25 seconds slower per mile than what it was when I first tested 6 plus weeks ago, under similar conditions.

If all of this isn’t a bit discouraging, I was thumbing through Roy Benson’s training and came across a test that he suggested and that I did about 10 weeks ago on the track. He had me run a mile at a HR between 130-135, and I ran the mile in 9:03! This means, if my estimates are correct, that I’ve slowed down @ 1:15 or more per mile over the past 9 or 10 weeks—and suspect that if I tried to keep my HR between 130-135, instead of below 136, that I might be closer to 1:30 or 1:45 slower!

The worst part is that I have increased my mileage from 15 to 27 miles a week and have increased my time running from 2 hours weekly up to over 5 hours weekly. It seems all I do is run or think about running these days.

I understand that it may take a few months before improvements come. I am usually pretty patient, but even if the times, which have remained pretty flat the past several weeks do start to get faster, it could be many, many months before I even get back to where I was when I was running just 2 hours a week. I am beginning to wonder if all this slow running is worth it.

I would guess my 5k time today would be a good 3 or more minutes slower than what I would be running it had I just added intervals and a weekly long run to my training 8-10 weeks ago.

By the way, before I started this training I ran an average of 7:30-7:40 per mile on my daily runs. I have been running for three years and had leveled off after the first 12 or 18 months. With all the hills around here, I realize now that I probably never ran much of anything aerobically and so thought I would respond well to aerobic training and the higher mileage.

I am wondering, could all my initial approximate 1:30 per mile loss in time be strictly attributed to anaerobic/fast twitch muscle atrophy? As I write this I realize that nearly all my losses came the first month and have leveled off since.

And one more thing, I have noticed that those who do improve seem to not only be running more, but have often added biking and swimming to their agendas. If you go from exercising 2 hours a week up to over 10, you're going to improve aerobically. Is that what it's going to take? Is that the most efficient use of time?

I have put a lot of time into this MAF training and really don’t want to abandon it, but I’m having a tougher and tougher time justifying continuing.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[This message has been edited by GForce1 (edited Feb-12-2006).]

[This message has been edited by GForce1 (edited Feb-12-2006).]

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posted Feb-12-2006 12:08 PM               

As mentioned before, I have two more weeks of Maff base training. I'm not saying I have derived all the benefits that I can expect from Maff after the past 12 weeks. In fact, I'm sure there is still a reasonable amount of improvement possible if I were to continue base training. However; I would like to get the other training in for the upcoming marathon. I will probably resume Maff base building in July if not earlier. This schedule will line up similarly for a fall marathon.

In a couple of weeks, do you think it would be wise to try to get a max HR by running one of the various tests? Do you think I would be better off just sticking with the Macmillan paces rather than using up my supply of Maff . I envision a guage on a fuel tank and don't want it to read "empty" before resuming Maff again :
Karen

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