posted Feb-08-2006 11:33 AM               

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posted Feb-08-2006 11:57 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ksabbo:
Thanks JM- I am curious how realistic it is for the average runner (simply defined as not elite) to have no drift.

quoted from a Maff article
During any one MAF test, it's normal for your times to get slower; the first mile should always be the fastest, and the last the slowest. If that's not the case, it usually means you have not warmed up enough.

...............................

Thanks again JM, you were already answering my questions from the above post while I was sending it. I guess we cross posted. It's probably better than cross dressing Maybe we should just stick with cross training :
Karen

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Karen,

Actually, I deleted the last post to better respond to your follow-up which I missed.

Check your log and look at pace vs HR on your training runs, you might be pleasantly suprised. It may indicate more progress than you think. In general ignore the first mile or two and focus on rest of the run. For example last 3-4 miles of a 5miler or last 5 miles of a 7 mile run. You do the math.

On degradation of pace (re: your earlier post), I think you started out too fast and HR was still coming up in the first mile. You'd have more even results if you held closer to 10:00 from the start. You were probably about 20s too fast in the first mile. HR was still coming up so it skewed the avg downward. Based on last 3 miles, and allowing for poor wind conditions on the last lap, I'd say 10-10:10 is closer to your current MAF pace, rather than 9:40-9:50 of the first two laps.

On MAF testing and slowing down:

I never understood why you should slow down, if you are aerobically fit (or at least more than before), warmed up, and if you are truly running well within your aerobic zone. How does his claim correlate with the fact that many, many people run even splits for races of 10miles or more, with steady HR, but allowing for cardiac drift. If his MAF tests are meant to account for cardiac drift, then I still don't get it. Anyone running under 12min miles and reasonably fit will (should?) not have any meaningful cardiac drift over 5 miles (assuming reasonable environmental conditions).

I'm not strictly following MAF (too many short speedwork sessions), although 98% of my running time is below my so-called MAF HR. Anyway, FWIW, on a 90-120m run targeting 70%mhr, I'm able to hold my per mile avg HR within 2bpm of the run average and pace variations within 10s of average per mile pace. This is either on a treadmill or outside on a very good day, known route (or easy terrain), and catching all the lights. It's easy on the treadmill and the only variation in pace is related to how fast (or slow) I hit the lap button. Outside it's a little harder, but I'm getting a pretty good sense of pacing on my regular routes. Also, I can barely spell elite, so I guess I'm an average runner

Incidentally, whenever I obtain this type of HR v. Pace stability a noticeable (>15s) pace drop always occurs over the next 1-2 weeks. Then at the new pace the building starts all over again, and I may have to back off a little later in medium to long runs, until pace HR stability sets in again. When I can hold a pace for more than 90m at a stable HR, then I mark that as reasonably significant progress and start to push the pace again.

--jm

p.s. we can't catch anything from cross-posting, can we?

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posted Feb-08-2006 12:20 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by junkmiles:

I never understood why you should slow down, if you are aerobically fit (or at least more than before), warmed up, and if you are truly running well within your aerobic zone. How does his claim correlate with the fact that many, many people run even splits for races of 10miles or more, with steady HR, but allowing for cardiac drift. If his MAF tests are meant to account for cardiac drift, then I still don't get it. Anyone running under 12min miles and reasonably fit will (should?) not have any meaningful cardiac drift over 5 miles (assuming reasonable environmental conditions).

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I don't think I understand "cardiac drift" very well. I always thought HR would increase over a period of time because the longer you run, the more stress on the body. This seems to be "true" stress and would account for the increase in HR. If the HR is drifting up, I don't see how it can be falsely inflated?

Karen

And no, I don't believe cross postng is hamful. It does make some people cross though! (sheesh, ok I'll stop)

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posted Feb-08-2006 12:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ksabbo:
I don't think I understand "cardiac drift" very well. I always thought HR would increase over a period of time because the longer you run, the more stress on the body. This seems to be "true" stress and would account for the increase in HR. If the HR is drifting up, I don't see how it can be falsely inflated?

Karen

And no, I don't believe cross postng is hamful. It does make some people cross though! (sheesh, ok I'll stop)

---

Cardiac drift is just a result of the heart responding to the extended stress of the body working over a long period of time. That is, as time goes on everything gets less efficient and the heart has to work harder. Dehydration, temp regulation, muscle fatigue, electrolyte imbalance are primary factors, as far as I understand things. Usually on moderate intensity runs less than 1 hr in good conditions cardiac drift shouldn't be an issue. Worst case would be about 5bpm, but in well trained folks it probably wouldn't be even that high, if at all. On long runs (say >2.5hrs) you might find 10-15bpm (20 at the outside), but again hydration, electrolytes, and training all work to minimize the impact. On your first 20mile run it will probably be worse than on you 8th. Nothing you can do, but try to minimize and make sure you are trained for the distance.

--jm

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posted Feb-08-2006 01:40 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by junkmiles:
Cardiac drift is just a result of the heart responding to the extended stress of the body working over a long period of time. That is, as time goes on everything gets less efficient and the heart has to work harder. Dehydration, temp regulation, muscle fatigue, electrolyte imbalance are primary factors, as far as I understand things. Usually on moderate intensity runs less than 1 hr in good conditions cardiac drift shouldn't be an issue. Worst case would be about 5bpm, but in well trained folks it probably wouldn't be even that high, if at all. On long runs (say >2.5hrs) you might find 10-15bpm (20 at the outside), but again hydration, electrolytes, and training all work to minimize the impact. On your first 20mile run it will probably be worse than on you 8th. Nothing you can do, but try to minimize and make sure you are trained for the distance.
--jm

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Does this mean that on a long run (>2.5 hrs) it would be ok to allow the additional 10-15bpm, or would it be more beneficial to reduce the pace and stay closer to target HR. Perhaps even split the difference by allowing 5bpm and slow the pace by a lesser amount?

I realize that going over your MAF HR is not staying strictly with Dr. Maf's program in the base building phase. However, I am close to the point where I will be putting a bit more emphasis on marathon training and including longer runs. My last 18 mile run went well, but was frustrating with the really slow pace. With 4 more 20 mile runs scheduled, it would lessen the frustration to relax on the target HR a bit.
Karen

[This message has been edited by Ksabbo (edited Feb-08-2006).]

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posted Feb-08-2006 07:21 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
50 seconds ain't bad decay in pace in an MAF test. My first one, I had about 80-90 seconds decay. I think the purpose of the MAF is to measure your progress in terms of overall pace. You compare one ave. pace from onne test to the other. I think Jesse could probably tell you more about whether or not the decay from mile 1 to 5 lessens over time.

--Jimmy

My Running World

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Indeed it does improve over time! There are many different metrics
that you can use to check progress and for some you may see more
of an effect more quickly than others: fastest pace in a run below
MAF, fastest average pace in a run below MAF, pace decay throughout
a run below MAF, improvement in race times, the sudden capability
to "run" up hills below MAF that you always had to walk before, and
the list goes on. 50 seconds, no big deal. I do find less drift if I
make sure I stay very easy for the 2-3 miles for the run, may be 10-15
below MAF. In many cases, I'll end up with a faster overall average
pace for a run if I start out slower. In either case, you really shouldn't
get fixated over one metric or another. See what's happening with things
overall every 3-4 weeks and make a determination then.

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posted Feb-08-2006 07:28 PM               

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posted Feb-08-2006 07:30 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Ksabbo:
Does this mean that on a long run (>2.5 hrs) it would be ok to allow the additional 10-15bpm, or would it be more beneficial to reduce the pace and stay closer to target HR. Perhaps even split the difference by allowing 5bpm and slow the pace by a lesser amount?

[This message has been edited by Ksabbo (edited Feb-08-2006).]

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It's really up to you. In theory you should keep below MAF the whole
time. The irony is that once your fitness is "there" you won't really
need to let it climb. The more time spend above MAF, the more you
interfere with the process. The only way to tell is to experiment.

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posted Feb-08-2006 08:15 PM               

One thing to note is that I have been adding progressively longer runs into the mix so this route (6.1) allows me to keep my HR lower whereas before it was pretty high. Anyhow, I wouldn't be running longer routes if I didn't feel good like I do with this training. Check out the chart:

My pace today (9:12) at 145 HR is 45 secs less than two years ago when my HR would have been at about 175 for a 10 min pace.

edited to fix graph
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Me ~~~ My Log ~~~Find a Race

[This message has been edited by hurryinhoosier (edited Feb-08-2006).]

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posted Feb-08-2006 10:18 PM               

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posted Feb-08-2006 10:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ksabbo:
Does this mean that on a long run (>2.5 hrs) it would be ok to allow the additional 10-15bpm, or would it be more beneficial to reduce the pace and stay closer to target HR. Perhaps even split the difference by allowing 5bpm and slow the pace by a lesser amount?

I realize that going over your MAF HR is not staying strictly with Dr. Maf's program in the base building phase. However, I am close to the point where I will be putting a bit more emphasis on marathon training and including longer runs. My last 18 mile run went well, but was frustrating with the really slow pace. With 4 more 20 mile runs scheduled, it would lessen the frustration to relax on the target HR a bit.
Karen

[This message has been edited by Ksabbo (edited Feb-08-2006).]

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Jesse has some good responses to this particular segment of the thread. I'd have to agree with him that strict interpretation says stay under. I also agree that, you'll have to make a determination based on where you're at in your marathon training and your goals for the race. You've put in 9 weeks, which is enough to see some definite benefits. If you stopped now the world wouldn't end.

When is the marathon and what kind of training other than MAF were you planning? What are your goals/priorities for the race?

--jm

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posted Feb-09-2006 12:35 AM               

Below is my first MAF test from Dec. followed by today's test. I ran two 5 milers after the Dec test, took the 16 days off. I then ran 182 miles in a little over 5 weeks between that test and today's.

My MAF is 141

Dec. 12th, 2005

MAF Test #2
Mile__Pace___AveHR__decay

1_____9:38____140
2_____9:52____140_____2.42%
3____10:15____140_____6.40%
4____10:31____140_____9.16%
5____10:53____140____12.98%

Ave pace: 10:14 Total decay=%12.98 Ave. rate of decay: 3.25%

Today's:

February 8th, 2006
MAF Test #2
Mile__Pace___AveHR__decay
1_____9:48____140____
2____10:14____141_____4.42%
3____10:37____140_____8.33%
4____10:54____140____11:22%
5____11:06____140____13.27%

Ave pace: 10:32 Total decay=%13.27 Ave. rate of decay: 3.32%

For the fun of it, I extended the test to 9 miles.

6____11:24____140____16.33%
7____11:32____140____17.69%
8____11:50____140____20.75%
9____12:14____140____24.83%

9 mile stats:
Ave pace: 11:05 Total decay=24.83% Ave. rate of decay 3.1%

Since I usually top out at a MAF-5 average, doing this test sort of felt like speedwork in a strange way. The only thing I get from all these numbers is that I'm closing back in on my pre-injury fitness. The layoff, and the subsequent low- mileage during the first few weeks of January, definitely had an effect on my level of aerobic fitness. It looks like it will take a total of about 6-8 weeks to get it back (from Jan 3rd).

I'll test again in a few weeks.

Wow. I think I just had a statsgasm.

--Jimmy

My Running World

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Feb-09-2006).]

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posted Feb-09-2006 06:10 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
I ran a new graph tonight that I think is pretty impressive for results. It shows my pace for the same route I have run for the past 3-4 months.

One thing to note is that I have been adding progressively longer runs into the mix so this route (6.1) allows me to keep my HR lower whereas before it was pretty high. Anyhow, I wouldn't be running longer routes if I didn't feel good like I do with this training. Check out the chart:

My pace today (9:12) at 145 HR is 45 secs less than two years ago when my HR would have been at about 175 for a 10 min pace.

edited to fix graph

---

Just curious, what was different before the 'blips'? ie slower runs...

ukboy

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posted Feb-09-2006 07:36 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by junkmiles:
When is the marathon and what kind of training other than MAF were you planning? What are your goals/priorities for the race?

--jm

---

The marathon is April 30. This isn't exactly a "goal" race, but it is a local marathon and I would like to do reasonably well. Since I really don't know what the result of Maff training will be, I don't feel capable of determining a goal pace until I get in at least 1 or 2 longish tempo runs. At minimum I would like to simply finish feeling great with a 10 minute pace. My BQ is a 9:10 pace which is a dream/goal that I might shoot for in the fall, depends on what this marathon tells me.

My intention is to complete 12 weeks Maff (which will bring me to the first week of March), and then start some hard/easy days to get in a bit of speed work (fartleks and some tempo runs) before the marathon. I tend to respond rather quickly to speed work. Maff training has allowed me to average 40 miles per week, and I'm running weekly long runs that will ultimately include an 18 miler and four 20+ runs every other week. A 10 or 12 mile run in between the long runs until 3 weeks out from the race and then the blessed taper

Does this seem like a reasonable plan?
Karen

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posted Feb-09-2006 08:03 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ksabbo:
The marathon is April 30. This isn't exactly a "goal" race, but it is a local marathon and I would like to do reasonably well. Since I really don't know what the result of Maff training will be, I don't feel capable of determining a goal pace until I get in at least 1 or 2 longish tempo runs. At minimum I would like to simply finish feeling great with a 10 minute pace. My BQ is a 9:10 pace which is a dream/goal that I might shoot for in the fall, depends on what this marathon tells me.

My intention is to complete 12 weeks Maff (which will bring me to the first week of March), and then start some hard/easy days to get in a bit of speed work (fartleks and some tempo runs) before the marathon. I tend to respond rather quickly to speed work. Maff training has allowed me to average 40 miles per week, and I'm running weekly long runs that will ultimately include an 18 miler and four 20+ runs every other week. A 10 or 12 mile run in between the long runs until 3 weeks out from the race and then the blessed taper

Does this seem like a reasonable plan?
Karen

---

Sounds like a good plan. What I really enjoyed doing for my last two marathons was lactate threshold runs and marathon tempo runs. I lifted them from the Pfitzinger book. The LT runs are run for 20-40 minutes between 80-90% MHR. After a few warm-up miles, you can get your HR up to 80%. Keep the pace steady and you'll be up to 90% by the end of the run. The two tempo runs were 12 (of 15 total) and 14 (of 16) miles long at dream marathon pace. The dream pace was based on what I got from the Team Oregon Pace Wizard based on a recent 10k PR. In my case this was 7:50-8:00 miles. These two tempo runs will prepare you well. I did very little interval taining. I don't think it's that necessary for the marathon. Plus, it tends to really zap my legs when I'm also doing 20-milers. I did the race-pace tempo runs on weeks in between long run weeks. Not the same week.

BTW, in May at VCM I wasn't able to hold the 7:50-8:00 pace, but in November at Philly, I held it the whole way. No wall. It's a great memory.

Good luck. Keep us posted on your progress. Which marathon?
How many miles? (just kidding--I get that question all the time from the Muggles and I always reply that a marathon is 26.2 miles and the first 26 miles are easy, but the last .2 is the toughest.)

--Jimmy

My Running World

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Feb-09-2006).]

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posted Feb-09-2006 08:11 AM               

From Training For Endurance Chapter 12 "Anaerobic Training" by Dr. Phillip Maffetone ©2000:

Once you have built sufficient aerobic base, your body may be ready to add anaerobic work...

...keep it short, keep it simple

....don't exceed 45 minutes

...don't exceed 90% MHR (note: keeps the run an LT run)

...the main purpose is to build fast-twitch muscle fibers

...anaerobic workout can be risky and frequently the cause of overtraining, injuriies, fatigue, and poor performance.

...keep it simple, keep it short

...my favorite recommendation for anaerobic workouts is fartlek...

..consider Mike Pigg's 1994 season--one of his best. He won most of his races and finished high up in most of the rest. He did not do any anaerobic work until mid-September, when most of his races were completed.

...When anaerobic training is included into your schedule, there are a few basic rules to follow:

--Including races, do not exceed 2-3 anaerobic workouts per week

--for many athletes, one anaerobic workout per week is sufficient

--most athletes will reach anaerobic benefits after 3-4 weeks of anaerobic work

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posted Feb-09-2006 08:15 AM               

The Team Oregon Pace Wizard will also give you a marathon tempo HR that you can use as a guideline if you use a HRM in your race-pace tempo runs.

http://www.teamoregon.com/publications/wizard.php

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Feb-09-2006 09:48 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ksabbo:
The marathon is April 30. This isn't exactly a "goal" race, but it is a local marathon and I would like to do reasonably well. Since I really don't know what the result of Maff training will be, I don't feel capable of determining a goal pace until I get in at least 1 or 2 longish tempo runs. At minimum I would like to simply finish feeling great with a 10 minute pace. My BQ is a 9:10 pace which is a dream/goal that I might shoot for in the fall, depends on what this marathon tells me.

My intention is to complete 12 weeks Maff (which will bring me to the first week of March), and then start some hard/easy days to get in a bit of speed work (fartleks and some tempo runs) before the marathon. I tend to respond rather quickly to speed work. Maff training has allowed me to average 40 miles per week, and I'm running weekly long runs that will ultimately include an 18 miler and four 20+ runs every other week. A 10 or 12 mile run in between the long runs until 3 weeks out from the race and then the blessed taper

Does this seem like a reasonable plan?
Karen

---

Jimmy's right. The plan sounds good, especially if you know how you respond to speedwork.

Let us know how things go once you start doing the tempo runs. Be interested to hear your feedback on how your MAF cycle impacted your performance at that point.

--jm

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posted Feb-09-2006 11:08 AM               

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posted Feb-09-2006 12:15 PM               

--Including races, do not exceed 2-3 anaerobic workouts per week

--for many athletes, one anaerobic workout per week is sufficient

--most athletes will reach anaerobic benefits after 3-4 weeks of anaerobic work

Since this is by Maffetone, would that mean he considers any run that goes over MAF to be anaerobic?

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crb81

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posted Feb-09-2006 12:21 PM               

--Including races, do not exceed 2-3 anaerobic workouts per week

--for many athletes, one anaerobic workout per week is sufficient

--most athletes will reach anaerobic benefits after 3-4 weeks of anaerobic work

Since this is by Maffetone, would that mean he considers any run that goes over MAF to be anaerobic?

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crb81

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posted Feb-09-2006 12:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by crb81:
When anaerobic training is included into your schedule, there are a few basic rules to follow:

--Including races, do not exceed 2-3 anaerobic workouts per week

--for many athletes, one anaerobic workout per week is sufficient

--most athletes will reach anaerobic benefits after 3-4 weeks of anaerobic work

Since this is by Maffetone, would that mean he considers any run that goes over MAF to be anaerobic?

---

The classic definiton of aerobic is need or dependence on for oxygen, and anaerobic meaning activity in the absence of free oxygen.

In his book "Traing For Endurance" (Dr. Phil Maffetone ©2000) he proposes an amended definiton:

Aerobic: The ability of the body to use more fats and less sugar for energy.

Anaerobic: The ability of the body to use more sugar than fat for energy

So according to his definition, the point at which you are using more sugar than fat would be the anaerobic threshold (AT). After years of working with professionals and amateurs, he deducted based on his empirical evidence that his MAF will keep runners under their AT.
It's highly probable that some of us can go a bit over MAF and still be under AT.

Jesse had a VO2max test done that showed him exactly where his AT is. You might have to look around for his posts, or maybe it's under his FAQ.

Now, common sense says that there is a difference between running over your AT at EG. 80% MHR than there is 95-99% MHR (when your heart is about to leap from your chest and your lungs are burning).

I suggest to anyone trying Maffetone that you read his book. I don't see how anyone could not be informing themselves from the actual source.

You can get the latest edition of Training for Endurance here:

http://www.pccoach.com/products/books/book_fit_t4e.htm

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Feb-09-2006 01:15 PM               

Yesterday I did an 5-mile MAF test and averaged 10:32 pace with my HR always averaging 140.

Today I did a 5-miler and averaged 10:28 pace with My HR averaging no higher than 136, and that was just the last mile. The other miles were less like 129, 132 etc.

My best 5-miler since my layoff.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

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posted Feb-09-2006 02:39 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by uk boy:
Just curious, what was different before the 'blips'? ie slower runs...

ukboy

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I am not real certain. I have noticed in my training I usually have a couple of good days and then a "bad" day. I believe it is really just cyclical for me - probably body tired after a few days. I also tend to like sweets so could be poor nutirion.

I wish I had a better explanation but I don't (could be wind, snow, etc..) I just know not to get too frustrated anymore b/c I see this happen with my training. I can usually tell in the first 1/2 mile how my time will be (good / bad).

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posted Feb-09-2006 05:41 PM               

You can get the latest edition of Training for Endurance here:

http://www.pccoach.com/products/books/book_fit_t4e.htm
Thanks Jimmy. I ordered it. I am currently reading Slow Burn.

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crb81

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