posted Jan-31-2006 08:06 PM            

Today's 7 mile run was 53 seconds a mile faster than 3 weeks ago over the same course. Still very slow 14 minute miles, but feel like progress is being made. Even walking the freeway overpass, makes my hr go over maf. Look forward to the day when I can jog the overpass and stay at the target heart rate.

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posted Jan-31-2006 08:22 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by scottsaxman:
Jesse, I know it's just your opinion, but why do you think this? And, how much over MAF is would you guess is too much (my MAF is 145)? I walk about 4 mph to maintain 135-140 bpm, and I've found that jogging, even at about 3.7 mph, puts me up to 165 bpm. The super slow jog did wonders for helping figure out how to improve my form, though!

Thanks,
Scott

---

Well, I only say that because it's hard to advocate walking to someone
who has been running. In reality, I think that doing whatever you can
to stay below the MAF HR will yield the most efficient aerobic system
development, but if it's basically causing someone to stop running, it
would be hard to advocate it. I did become a master at the wog, if I
do say so myself (boy, that's impressive), but I found that I didn't
have to stay painfully slow for more than a few weeks (although I did
stay "very" slow for probably a couple of months). I'm kind of the
opposite of you - my heart rate is lower for an equivalent speed wog
compared to a walk.

Let me put it in a different way - if you feel that you are getting benefits
from and you are seeing progress from staying under MAF when you
have to walk a lot, it's probably worth while. It was interesting and
encouraging to see the new post by brigoul above, who seems to have
started in a very similar boat.

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posted Jan-31-2006 09:04 PM               

Kenny

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posted Jan-31-2006 10:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, I only say that because it's hard to advocate walking to someone
who has been running. In reality, I think that doing whatever you can
to stay below the MAF HR will yield the most efficient aerobic system
development, but if it's basically causing someone to stop running, it
would be hard to advocate it. I did become a master at the wog, if I
do say so myself (boy, that's impressive), but I found that I didn't
have to stay painfully slow for more than a few weeks (although I did
stay "very" slow for probably a couple of months). I'm kind of the
opposite of you - my heart rate is lower for an equivalent speed wog
compared to a walk.

Let me put it in a different way - if you feel that you are getting benefits
from and you are seeing progress from staying under MAF when you
have to walk a lot, it's probably worth while. It was interesting and
encouraging to see the new post by brigoul above, who seems to have
started in a very similar boat.

---

I would also add that there are other training adaptations you get from running at any HR that you won't get from walking below MAF. Most of these are with respect to the bones, connective tissues and muscles. For a person who has already been running, then running at a higher HR than MAF and then dropping HR as pace improves (in 20-30s chunks) is arguably a better than mostly walking. If for no other reason than keeping up the structural adaptations, which take considerably longer than the cardiovascular ones. If you're a totally new runner and would be doing the run/walk approach anyway, then it doesn't matter as much.

just my opinion.

--jm

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posted Jan-31-2006 10:44 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdraley:
I have been reading this for about six weeks, but could not start until after the Rock and Roll on the 15th. I ran it in 3:48 and felt great until mile 22. At that point I knew I wanted to try something else for my next marathon. I ordered a 301 and strapped it on for the first time on the 18th and ran 45 minutes with a maf of 139. I had to run at 5.5 but thought that was good after reading all this. Did my first outside run on Sunday. Ran 12 miles at 11.25 pace. On the hills around my house I had to almost run in place to get up them and still keep my hr under the 139. Normally I would have run 16 miles plus in the same time. Today I used the treadmill again and could run at 6.0 for 70 minutes and then had to drop to 5.5 for the last 20 minutes. I find it much easier to run on the treadmill and keep my hr down. I plan to do this untill the Rock and Roll in San Diego in June. I am running between 50 and 60 miles a week so I can report how it is working on a regular basis. I do know that I enjoy the run much more already. I hope it improves my time also.
Thanks for all the information.

Kenny

---

Hey Kenny - welcome to the "I can't stand screeching to a halt
at 22 miles" club! Your timing may be ideal with regard to where
you are and your running background to give you relatively quick
progress and, as you said, while you're finding it slow, you're not
nearly at as a miserable pace as several of us have been at the
beginning. Good luck with your training and let us know how things
go, good or bad.

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posted Feb-01-2006 12:40 AM               

Today I did my first day of a double workout. I ran 5 in the morning straight and my legs felt healthy. I kept my HR ave. no higher than MAF-5 (136) at 10:51 pace in 83% humidity. I'm almost at my pre-layoff aerobic fitness. I walked a slow to quick mile before the run, and powerwalked 1.5 miles afer the run. The second workout was a 2.5 mile powerwalk at 4.2 mph. My ave HR stayed between 110-114 bpm which is MAF-27 or 55-58% MHR. So for the day, I covered 10.25 miles. Legs feeling pretty good.

My plan is to keep building the walking miles as well as the running. I'd like to see if I can get up to 100 miles per week runs and walks combined. At the very least, the extra calories I'm burning ought to offset this eating binge I've been on (trying to fill the void I feel), though it's beginning to subside.

I also have this pipe dream of someday running an ultramarathon. Becoming a good powerwalker won't be a detriment at all to running one of those.

It was a good day. Making progress, and feel excited about this new training program.

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Feb-01-2006 02:04 AM            

I've decided to give HR training a try, after my disasterous first marathon 2 mths ago. I'm a little underage according to mr Leitnerj's FAQ! I'm 23 yrs old and my PBs are 1:51 (half marathon) and 48:30 (10k). Unfortunately, I'm feeling a bit unsure about the whole training process. Using Maffetone's formula, my HR should be under 157bpm. In my first two runs using the HR moniter, I slowed down slightly from my usual LR pace to accommodate this, but currently I find that I actually have to up the pace to maintain around 153bpm. Isn't this rather strange? I keep reading about how people have to make an effort to slow down and I was bracing myself for this when quite the opposite happens!
I have been slacking off training quite a bit since my 4:40s marathon so I assumed the best way was to start buliding my aerobic base before attempting any other race. I just did an 11 mile run in very hot weather yesterday and managed an average HR of 151 although I think it took me about 3 miles to reach the 150s zone reasonably comfortably (without feeling I was going too fast to finish the run). I wonder if I'm going on the right track? And if I am, it doesn't feel much different to when I was training without the HRM,and I've been having no progress with my times for quite a while now.

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posted Feb-01-2006 12:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
[B

My plan is to keep building the walking miles as well as the running. I'd like to see if I can get up to 100 miles per week runs and walks combined. At the very least, the extra calories I'm burning ought to offset this eating binge I've been on (trying to fill the void I feel), though it's beginning to subside.

--Jimmy

My Running World[/B]

---

Anyway, I just think you¡¦re on the right track. Good luck with your training.

Cathy

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posted Feb-01-2006 12:39 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Thanks, Cashmason.

Today I did my first day of a double workout. I ran 5 in the morning straight and my legs felt healthy. I kept my HR ave. no higher than MAF-5 (136) at 10:51 pace in 83% humidity. I'm almost at my pre-layoff aerobic fitness. I walked a slow to quick mile before the run, and powerwalked 1.5 miles afer the run. The second workout was a 2.5 mile powerwalk at 4.2 mph. My ave HR stayed between 110-114 bpm which is MAF-27 or 55-58% MHR. So for the day, I covered 10.25 miles. Legs feeling pretty good.
--Jimmy

My Running World

---

Are you following a program that is in a book or online by Maffetone? I'd like to start HR training and I am looking for a good program instead of just winging it. I did the C25K but am not progressing as far as speed or distance. I've used my HR monitor all through C25K but I was above what MAF suggests, mainly anaerobic.
Thanks

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posted Feb-01-2006 08:10 PM            

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posted Feb-01-2006 08:22 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
Everyone,
I have been a Maffer for the past 4 weeks. Nothing but Maff and have not seen any substantial improvement. I started Maffing after taking time off from a November marathon and nursing an injury. At worse the Maff will allow me to build a good base for the Chicago marathon. Now for the question. There is an 8K on Feb12. Last year I did it just under a 7:30 pace. If I try to do it at a 07:30 pace will it ruin all of the progress I have made in my Maff training? I am probably not in 07:30 pace shape but I want to give it a try. All responses will be apprecriated. BTW.....I am currently Maffing it at a 13:30 pace!

---

4 weeks is about enough time to lose some of your anaerobic fitness
and not yet gain aerobic fitness, although some people are lucky.
One 5 mile race isn't going to help you and might set you back a bit (although if nothing is improved, what's to set back?) If it's an
important race to you, why not? Incidentally, are you using a
conservatively low MAF (subtracting 5 for an injury), or are you
adding 5? If you make a habit of regularly going over MAF, you
won't likely see any progress at low HRs, but 45 minutes here and
there (perhaps once a month or so) shouldn't really have an
impact.

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posted Feb-01-2006 08:48 PM            

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posted Feb-01-2006 09:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcy1998:
Jesse,
Nothing you said surprises me. I will probably do the race because it runs right by my house. I like to think of it as a home course advantage ;-) I cannot say that I have not seen any improvement. 90+% of my miles have been on the treadmill. During this time two 8 mile runs have been outside. The thing I have noticed is that my times have come down from a 14:00 pace to where it is today. The biggest gain is that the variance between my mile01 pace and my last mile (usually 6, 7,8) has really decreased. The first few weeks the variance was 60+ seconds. Today when I did six the variance between mile01 and Mile06 was 20 seconds. I started out with 20 miles and have increased it every week by 2 miles. This week I will finish up with 26 miles. Yes, I have improved but not at the speed I want. My Maf is 135 and today I stated out at 123 and when I completed it was at 133. I am very religous about keeping my Maf under 135. I need to put my log on the web. Thanks for all of your help. Even if Maf is not the thing for me I have learned a lot and will have an excellent base.

---

That actually sounds quite good. In fact, although pace at low HR is
probably one of the biggest things people look at, I believe the
"reduction in slowdown" from beginning to end of a moderately long run
is the real key. When this becomes consistent in your MAF runs for
a while, it becomes consistent at higher HRs as well. Good luck,
whatever you decide to do - for some a brief learning process is what
they need to get out of this, others need to dedicate a long time to fix
some nagging problems.

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posted Feb-02-2006 12:27 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by StealthRunner:

Hi Jimmy- I just wanted to let you know that this is exactly the way I built up to a fast 50mpw for my first marathon. After not running for six months, I jumped right into a four months training program. I must say that my time was nothing to brag about, but I really wanted to do the marathon. I had no problems with injuries building up mileage, and changed walking miles into running miles when I was able to. I had lots of fun doing the marathon. The last few miles were hard, but I was able to run the entire distance. Not too bad for an older lady coming off a hamstring tear! ļ

Anyway, I just think you¡¦re on the right track. Good luck with your training.

Cathy

---

Your story is very encouraging. I'm actually having fun doing something different. I did a lot of reading about ultrarunners over the holidays, and one thing they all do during the race is take walk breaks (especially up steep hills). Walking is an essential part of covering 100 miles. I'm figuring it won't hurt to be a powerful walker as well. I'm not sure how fast I'll run Boston, but at this point, I'll be happy just to be able to run it (and figure out the logistics of getting to an from that massive point to point race where parking is at a premium).

Thansk, cathy.

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Feb-02-2006 12:43 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by goal2run:

Are you following a program that is in a book or online by Maffetone? I'd like to start HR training and I am looking for a good program instead of just winging it. I did the C25K but am not progressing as far as speed or distance. I've used my HR monitor all through C25K but I was above what MAF suggests, mainly anaerobic.
Thanks

---

I'm following the Maffetone guidelines for HR. As far as running mileage, I'm doing what I've been doing for awhile now:

--run 5-6 days a week
--take Monday off religiously
--alternate hard/easy days
--cut mileage avery 4th week by 10-50%
--build mileage by 5-10% per week.

Following those rules, you can create your own schedule ahead of time.
Start with the mileage base you have now, then build 5-10% per week.
It helps to have a race goal in mind like a half -marathon, marathon, or a 135 mile race through Death Valley.

Add mileage to your hard days first, keeping recovery days 3-5 miles of running. Take at least one day of rest per week.

The difference in what I'm doing now is that I'm adding walking workouts either at night or right after a run. I'm using them as crosstraining. Trying to exercise the aerobic muscles without too much impact. I'm attempting to cover as many miles as possible walking workouts and running sessions combined. I'm finding that I can get a nice 55-60% MHR walking workout at night (about 24 beats below my MAF), and a 65% (MAF- 14) after my morning runs.

Good luck.

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Feb-02-2006 10:24 AM               

I am a 29 y.o. female (120 pounds) and I am trying to find a good "easy pace" for endurance training. Yesterday I ran 4 miles on the t-mill. Pace was from 10:00 flat to 10:10 minutes per mile. I repeatedly took my heart rate through out the run. It was basically 137, 143, 135. I figure then that my average is like 138 or something. When I do that formula of 180-age says that my max heart rate should be 151. So does that put my regular runs at 129 (80% of 151?).

Help please... I am trying to figure out if I am running too fast or not fast enough.

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posted Feb-02-2006 12:11 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by running411searcher:
Just want some quick info and I figure this is probably the best place for me to post these questions...

I am a 29 y.o. female (120 pounds) and I am trying to find a good "easy pace" for endurance training. Yesterday I ran 4 miles on the t-mill. Pace was from 10:00 flat to 10:10 minutes per mile. I repeatedly took my heart rate through out the run. It was basically 137, 143, 135. I figure then that my average is like 138 or something. When I do that formula of 180-age says that my max heart rate should be 151. So does that put my regular runs at 129 (80% of 151?).

Help please... I am trying to figure out if I am running too fast or not fast enough.

---

151 is your MAF (Maximum Aerobic Fun------ction). If you are giving this Maffetone stuff a go, then just keep your HR under 151. So 129 is fine. You can probably go a little faster. A good range to shoot for is 136-146ish. After a mile or two, let your HR drift up to 136, then stay at that speed. It all depends on the length of the run of course. You might take a longer time to warm-up to the 136 for long runs. Good luck!

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Feb-02-2006 03:31 PM               

Great thread you have going here. I could probably find most of the answers to my questions in it...but I need to vent!

I have been using the Maffetone approach for three weeks and I hate it. I am 48 y.o. so I am targeting under 132 bpm. On a scale of one to ten I can only assume my conditioning is a 2 and my frustration level about 20!

After three weeks of biking and running a total of about 4 to 5 hours per week (mostly biking), my HR for a given pace is still getting worse. I can’t run up even the slightest grade without exceeding my MAF HR. In fact I can barely run for a couple of minutes on the flat without exceeding 132 bpm. I think my HR is rising even faster due to the frustration of hearing my Garmin alert every 2 minutes!

I have a number of marathons with a pb of 3:56 (5 years ago). My last marathon was in 2003 and I struggled to finish the last few. I have run 4 half marathons in the last 16 months all between 1:43 and 1:47. Most recent was November 2005.

I don’t know what happened, how can I go from running a 1:43 half to walking a 12 minute mile!? Should I be concerned that something is wrong. I have been under the weather for part of the three weeks and I am coming off a very long stretch with hamstring soreness that I think might have been overtraining. I took a couple of weeks at reduced mileage before starting the Maf approach.

Any idea how long should before I should expect to see improvement...

frustrated

dc

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posted Feb-02-2006 06:14 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by run2live99:
How slooow can you go?

I have been using the Maffetone approach for three weeks and I hate it.

I don’t know what happened, how can I go from running a 1:43 half to walking a 12 minute mile!? Should I be concerned that something is wrong. I have been under the weather for part of the three weeks and I am coming off a very long stretch with hamstring soreness that I think might have been overtraining.

Any idea how long should before I should expect to see improvement...

frustrated

dc

---

I totally relate to your post.

1. If you totally hate the Maff approach, you are probably doing it perfect

2. Don't underestimate what being "under the weather" will do to your heart rate.

3. I was one of the lucky ones and began to see measurable results at about 6 weeks. I believe that is early compared to what many others have to say. I did have many small triumphs though. I went from having to walk all hills to only walking two and wogging the rest. Then I was able to not only wog all the hills, but I could actually run up most of the hills without the dang alarm going off.

My times are pretty close to yours. It took me a week or two to ease into the correct Maff zone. Once I did I had MANY runs in the 11:00/min/mile range. Occasionally I would hit a 12 minute mile, but for the most part was lucky to be able to keep them in the 10-11 minute range. After about 6-7 weeks I actually was hitting the 9 min/mile range and even had two miles of a run at 9:03 and 9:08. Then all of a sudden my speed at the correct HR (MAF 133, kept it averaged at 129) plummented, close to 12:00 min/miles. I had no idea what had happened and thought I had simply lost any kind of speed I ever had . A couple of days later I realized I had a cold. The HR has been elevated for almost 2 weeks. Yesterday my resting HR was still about 7 BPM high and was the first day I ran with all miles in the 10 min/mile range. Today is the first day my resting HR has been normal (48 for me). I didn't run today, but my long run of 17 miles is tomorrow and I am very thankful it probably won't all be at 12 min/miles.

Hang in there. You haven't been doing it long enough to see results and IT DOES WORK! I am nowhere near finished with Maff. I still have a long way to go and am very excited about the past and future results.

Karen

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posted Feb-02-2006 08:44 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by run2live99:
How slooow can you go?

Great thread you have going here. I could probably find most of the answers to my questions in it...but I need to vent!

I have been using the Maffetone approach for three weeks and I hate it. I am 48 y.o. so I am targeting under 132 bpm. On a scale of one to ten I can only assume my conditioning is a 2 and my frustration level about 20!

After three weeks of biking and running a total of about 4 to 5 hours per week (mostly biking), my HR for a given pace is still getting worse. I can’t run up even the slightest grade without exceeding my MAF HR. In fact I can barely run for a couple of minutes on the flat without exceeding 132 bpm. I think my HR is rising even faster due to the frustration of hearing my Garmin alert every 2 minutes!

I have a number of marathons with a pb of 3:56 (5 years ago). My last marathon was in 2003 and I struggled to finish the last few. I have run 4 half marathons in the last 16 months all between 1:43 and 1:47. Most recent was November 2005.

I don’t know what happened, how can I go from running a 1:43 half to walking a 12 minute mile!? Should I be concerned that something is wrong. I have been under the weather for part of the three weeks and I am coming off a very long stretch with hamstring soreness that I think might have been overtraining. I took a couple of weeks at reduced mileage before starting the Maf approach.

Any idea how long should before I should expect to see improvement...

frustrated

dc

---

I just ran a 3:28 marathon at Philly in Novemeber, and I am now running 10:47-12:00 miles to keep under MAF, depending on the distance. I know for sure that it's temporay and I''ll get a lot faster. If you didn't do weel in your last few marathons, and are having a hard time keeping under MAF without walking, then you need to be walking, until you can run the whole time. It's just showing you where your aerobic conditioning really is.

It all comes down to what you want, and what you are willing to do to get it.

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Feb-02-2006 09:44 PM               

Thanks for confirming that this is the right thing to do...but six weeks, my other half is already tired of my complaining!

Karen, I'm holding out for some bright spots along the way, and Jimmy, 3:28 to 12:00 min miles...ouch!

I made the decision when I read the book to give it an honest effort, your positive replies should get me through another week, thanks.

dc

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posted Feb-02-2006 10:53 PM            

Maf is easy on the legs but brutal on the ego.

Btw thats 6 weeks at 30-45 miles per week. Somebody posted it took them about 250 miles at Maf to see results. If you are doing 10 miles a week, it may take a lot longer. I don't remember how far you are running.

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posted Feb-03-2006 10:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by run2live99:

I have been using the Maffetone approach for three weeks and I hate it. I am 48 y.o. so I am targeting under 132 bpm. On a scale of one to ten I can only assume my conditioning is a 2 and my frustration level about 20!

.....................

Any idea how long should before I should expect to see improvement...

frustrated

dc

---

See where you are at in 6 weeks. Watch for the following changes:

1. Takes longer for HR to climb past MAF at given pace.
2. Less walking (as a function of #1)
3. HR comes down faster on walking break
4. Avg. HR drops 2-5bpm at given pace

All these are indications of progress, but won't necessarily present as dramatic pace improvements and aren't nearly as satisfying. But you can at least use them as guideposts on the road to faster running. Like the others said, for most people who adopt this approach, 3 weeks isn't enough time for a dramatic pace improvement. Pace improvements will come sporadically, meaning you might have a couple weeks with small, but noticeable progress and then the next week you drop back a few seconds (or more). Try not to sweat it. Look for the positive trend (faster pace) over a minimum 4-8 week period.

It's tough, but if you want to be faster overall you need to be able to hold a decent pace at a relatively lowHR. HR is a decent proxy for effort, but it will fluctate on a day to day basis, which means your pace is going to fluctuate daily. Think of it like the stock market, unless you are a day trader (successful day trader I should say) you make money on the long term trend, not the daily fluctuations. MAF or any other lowHR training approach is definitely a buy and hold strategy.

--jm

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posted Feb-03-2006 01:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ksabbo:

2. Don't underestimate what being "under the weather" will do to your heart rate.
Karen

---

Just wanted to chime in with a recent experience on MAF training and being "under the weather". I track my pace/HR on a daily basis using a Timex BodyLink system and my mile split times have been consistenly faster week-by-week , and also very consistent on a day-by-day basis.

The other day I felt just a wee bit under the weather, but had what I would classify as an unusually hard run. It just didn't feel right and I struggled through the whole 5 miles at my typically easy MAF pace. When I got back and uploaded my times, every single mile split was 1:00-1:45 minutes SLOWER than my typical pace. I honestly thought that my BodyLink was malfunctioning it was so much slower, but sure enough, the next morning I had developed a full-blown head cold that has had me in bed for two days straight now.

I found it quite fascinating that my body/HR was already in full "sick mode" even though none of the symptoms had physically appeared yet. I also wonder if I would be as sick as I am now if I had cut that run short after the first mile when it was clear that I was really struggling...my body was obviously telling me something but I cranked out the full 5 miles regardless.

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posted Feb-03-2006 01:39 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by tcb:
I found it quite fascinating that my body/HR was already in full "sick mode" even though none of the symptoms had physically appeared yet. I also wonder if I would be as sick as I am now if I had cut that run short after the first mile when it was clear that I was really struggling...my body was obviously telling me something but I cranked out the full 5 miles regardless.

---

HR will give you a good 2-3days notice of impending illness, if you pay attention to it. This happened to me, except I thought I just had a bad couple of days until the 3rd day when symptoms popped up and I knew I was sick.

--jm

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