posted Jan-21-2006 09:00 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:

Looking at the FAQ, do you think any of the #1 categories even loosely ties to yourself?

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Hi Jesse,

Thanks for the feedback.

Looking at the FAQ, there is nothing that really applies to me.

Last year my best 5K (19:55) equates almost exactly to my best 10K (44:15) and 1/2 marathon (1:32.30) and on only 25 miles per week. I would think my 1/2 would slip some.

I do feel tired (but not shot) after my long run but they make up 35-40% of my weekly mileage and I have been putting in a 3 - 4 mile tempo run in the middle.

My times have stabilized even though I PRd on all of the above races last year but not by much. I know they won't improve too much more without more miles.

My question for you and others is, isn't it strange I can run that fast (compared to a 10K) for the 1/2 marathon on only 25 miles per week?????

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posted Jan-21-2006 09:03 AM               

5K (19:55), best 10K (44:15) and 1/2 marathon (1:32.30) and on only 25 miles per week.

Sorry, my best 10K was 41:15

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posted Jan-21-2006 09:24 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tchuck:

My question for you and others is, isn't it strange I can run that fast (compared to a 10K) for the 1/2 marathon on only 25 miles per week?????

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Could be, but I think it's clear that you've probably had good
training habits for your running, maintaining a high level of
aerobic conditioning (even on low mileage) and you have
talent. Put those together and you don't have to work as hard.
Henceforth, your half marathon is well-predicted by
your 10k and even your 5k. So, if you build up the aerobic
fitness by something other than high mileage, it's the fitness
that's important, not the fact that you did that mileage. Just saw your follow-up post - I knew something didn't seem
right about the 44 10k. My guess is that you would PR in a one mile
race around 5:40. I think it's quite clear from your numbers that you
really wouldn't see any improvement without speedwork. I'm not
even sure you need more mileage (unless you were going to move
into marathons).

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posted Jan-21-2006 09:32 AM            

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posted Jan-21-2006 10:42 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by kcy1998:
I have just started MAF and have completed two weeks. Nothing to get excited about but I am giving it a try. The desired goal is to run the Chicago Marathon in 03:45 in October. I have finished two marathons 2004-04:01 and 2005-03:56. The plan is to do a 24 or 18 week marathon training program leading up to Chicago. It will be either the Pfitz or Daniels plan. One thing I am unclear about is how I can accomplish the marathon training plan without killing all of the MAF benefits? Can anyone provide some insight?
TIA

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You've got plenty of time to get a few solid months of MAF basebuilding
before starting either Pfitz's or Daniels' plan. When you move into the
more intense training, it will chip away at your aerobic base, but as long
as you keep your easy and long runs under MAF, the effect shouldn't
be too significant. Daniels' plan would probably be less likely to chip
away at it as Pfitz's will.

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posted Jan-21-2006 12:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tchuck:
My question for you and others is, isn't it strange I can run that fast (compared to a 10K) for the 1/2 marathon on only 25 miles per week?????

---

TChuck: I'd bet there's a simple answer to this: you have a lot of talent. Your body seems to adapt well to running pretty fast and pretty far, which means you've got the right blend of power and efficiency for racing. Some people, elites on down, can thrive even on what seems like shockingly low mileage to most of their peers. I doubt that you could run a marathon or an ultra that corresponds to your other race times without stretching out your long runs (this just because of the glycogen depletion factor, which doesn't play much of a role in the distances you race).

So I'd guess your answer by saying that, yeah, it seems strange to me that you can maintain your speed at half-marathon distances on only 25 miles a week.

But that's only because I don't have talent.

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posted Jan-21-2006 12:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Saturday 12/25/05 27 degrees(light wind)
5.5 miles, 1:02:41 total time
1.- 11:59 136
2.- 11:18 142
3.- 11:23 142
4.- 11:26 141
5.- 11:31 142
6.- 5:41 141/142 (half mile)
Avg hr for workout- 140, Max- 150. Stayed in zone- 54:53, above- 1:59, below- 6:29

After 5 weeks low heart rate training with zone set at 138-145 bpm

Friday 01/20/06 50 degrees (light wind)
5 miles, 53:06 total time. On mile 3 took of a layer of clothing which may have favored my pace.
1.- 10:52 136
2.- 10:44 141
3.- 10:49 142
4.- 10:25 140
5.- 10:14 141

Avg hr for workout- 140, max- 150, Stayed in zone- 47:14, above- 00:40, below- 5:12

I would like to think that I made some pretty good progress but maybe it's to soon to tell. In general my pace seems to be improving on all my runs(different routes,hilly courses etc..) but I still get days when I can barley maintain an 11:00 m/m. I also have increased my mileage from 25 to 34 mpw over the last 5 weeks. I feel so good running at this effort. Not tired at all. Before, I used to get so soar after my runs. Now, I just want to keep running. In fact, I have to force myself to stop and not increase miles to quickly. My legs are feeling stronger.

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runawayjesse: I don't know much about anything, but this looks like fantastic progress, especially since you're feeling stronger and have been able to bump up your mileage comfortably.

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posted Jan-21-2006 01:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Hairy Trotter:

runawayjesse: I don't know much about anything, but this looks like fantastic progress, especially since you're feeling stronger and have been able to bump up your mileage comfortably.

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Thanks Hairy. I'm amazed at my times. Just got back from my long run 9 miles on the road(rolling hills) and all my miles were between 10:12-10:35 pace. I didn't have to slow much on the hills at all. This was my best run yet. It just seems like to much progress to soon. I guess time will tell.

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posted Jan-22-2006 12:18 PM               

I'm sick......, AWESOME BABY!

I'm so happy to find out I have a cold (jumping up and clicking heels)

I now have an explanation for the sudden set back this past week I even posted with a great whine questioning what may be going on. I specifically said "I'm not sick or anything"!

Isn't this silly , but I sincerely am relieved to have an explanation. I was trying to brush it off, but was having lingering doubts that the past 7 weeks were all for nothing.

WooHoo...I'm sick, I'm sick, I'm sick

Karen

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posted Jan-22-2006 03:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Hairy Trotter:
TChuck: I'd bet there's a simple answer to this: you have a lot of talent.

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Thanks! Never been told I have talent as a runner. I come from a weight lifting background and people have always complemented me on my strength and muscular physique but this is a first. I think my strength and work hard/intense attitude allows me to get by on less miles and still perform adequately.

Speaking of talent, one other area I have talent is fantasy football. I just won an online national fantasy football league out of 600 teams - with a very unique format where you can only play one player once a year. Won $10,000.00 from a $50 entry fee. Now that is talent! Ha!

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posted Jan-22-2006 05:17 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tchuck:
Won $10,000.00 from a $50 entry fee. Now that is talent! Ha!

---

much more meaningful talent, indeed. I'll trade a future 36 minute
10k for 10 gs any day!

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posted Jan-22-2006 07:16 PM               

Each time you up the distance of your runs I assume the average pace will go again until your body adapts. For example, I can run 6 miles at a an average pace around 9:40 (for 6 mile route)'. This is down from about an average pace of 10:45 3 months ago (for 6 mile route).

When I have run 10 miles a couple of time in last 4 weeks my average pace has been around 10:05.

I am trying to get my short run to be around 8-10 miles. When I started the MAF training it was at 3.5-4 miles for the easy run.

Anyhow, I am trying to peak for a Marathon in April so am going to start increasing long runs. I am guessing each bump up will be slower pace but then a step back will show a better pace. We shall see!

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[This message has been edited by hurryinhoosier (edited Jan-22-2006).]

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posted Jan-22-2006 07:22 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
One thing I have wondered and I do not see in here...

Each time you up the distance of your runs I assume the pace will go again until your body adapts. For example, I can run 6 miles at a pace around 9:40 (for 6 mile route)'. This is down from about 10:45 3 months ago (for 6 mile route).

When I have run 10 miles a couple of time in last 4 weeks my pace has average around 10:05.

I am trying to get my short run to be around 8-10 miles. When I started the MAF training it was at 3.5-4 miles for the easy run.

Anyhow, I am trying to peak for a Marathon in April so am going to start increasing long runs. I am guessing each bump up will be slower pace but then a step back will show a better pace. We shall see!

---

I think the actual effect that you are seeing is a decrease in the
rate of heart rate drift for the longer runs. This is an important
improvement (in some sense better than simply improvement of
your best pace at sub-MAF) and, as you say, it does seem to
improve as you extend out your runs. So, by "slower pace" I
presume you mean average pace over the run (i.e., there's no
reason the fastest pace in the run will get slower unless you are
using a lower target heart rate). So, even if you see just minor
improvements in your best pace below MAF, it is significant
if you reach a point where a 10 mile run is run at the same average
pace as you originally ran a 5 mile run. This defines endurance
improvement and aerobic conditioning.

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posted Jan-22-2006 09:05 PM            

Ron

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posted Jan-22-2006 09:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by RonPerth:
Well I've finally finished reading the whole thread, and my thanks to all the posters. Especially of course to Leitner, and also to BrianDirect, who is my age, and made it known that a person can actually run at 122 bpm. So I got started a month ago, and so far its working. I've gained 3/4 mph at the same heart rate, and I feel refreshed and energized after 'runs' of up to 2 hours, instead of beat. It made me realize that for the 2 years I've been running, I've almost always been in my lactate threshold zone, and never even knew there was something easier down somewhere down below. So now my goal for this summer is an easy afternoon run, all afternoon.

Ron

---

Great, Ron, thanks for posting your results. 3/4 mph improvement
is fantastic. It sounds like you'll be on target to meet your goal. And
I do know exactly how you feel, "the old way" and "the new way".

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posted Jan-23-2006 12:19 AM            

Run the whole time at a very slow jog. Maf is 131 and I run at 126 beats per minute. Today and a few days ago, the run would start off with 118 bpm, then seconds later be 170 then 2 beats later be 116. Rinse repeat with highs in 160s to high 170s then very quickly back down to normal zone.

Then after 2/3 mile running at 123 bpm with spikes only up to 127 - 130. This lasts until the end of the run after completing 6 miles or so.

These runs are often done shortly after I get up, and I haven't had anything to eat or drink. I do drink water during the run.

This is normal for me. I often don't eat before I run in the morning or wait 2 hours after eating.

Is this normal, or am I doing something wrong.

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posted Jan-23-2006 05:21 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Twice in the last week, I have had problems with very high heart rate the first 2/3 of a mile, and then the heart rate settles down to the normal range.

Run the whole time at a very slow jog. Maf is 131 and I run at 126 beats per minute. Today and a few days ago, the run would start off with 118 bpm, then seconds later be 170 then 2 beats later be 116. Rinse repeat with highs in 160s to high 170s then very quickly back down to normal zone.

Then after 2/3 mile running at 123 bpm with spikes only up to 127 - 130. This lasts until the end of the run after completing 6 miles or so.

These runs are often done shortly after I get up, and I haven't had anything to eat or drink. I do drink water during the run.

This is normal for me. I often don't eat before I run in the morning or wait 2 hours after eating.

Is this normal, or am I doing something wrong.

---

I have a friend at work (whose arm I have twisted to become part
of my "science experiment") who mentions the same thing. If it's
not screwy HRM behavior, I assume it's funky stuff that happens
prior to being warmed up. I told him to do a 20 minute stint on the
stationary bike for an easy warmup to see if that eliminates it.
I doubt you're doing anything wrong, but warmup may be a factor.

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posted Jan-23-2006 11:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Twice in the last week, I have had problems with very high heart rate the first 2/3 of a mile, and then the heart rate settles down to the normal range.

Run the whole time at a very slow jog. Maf is 131 and I run at 126 beats per minute. Today and a few days ago, the run would start off with 118 bpm, then seconds later be 170 then 2 beats later be 116. Rinse repeat with highs in 160s to high 170s then very quickly back down to normal zone.

Then after 2/3 mile running at 123 bpm with spikes only up to 127 - 130. This lasts until the end of the run after completing 6 miles or so.

These runs are often done shortly after I get up, and I haven't had anything to eat or drink. I do drink water during the run.

This is normal for me. I often don't eat before I run in the morning or wait 2 hours after eating.

Is this normal, or am I doing something wrong.

---

This exact thing happened to me this morning (readings of 165, 209, 190, 145, etc. during walking and warmup). I was sick over the weekend and at first thought i was just having a bad reaction. I checked my HR by hand just to gauge and it was nowhere near that high.

I thought it was HR interference at first, but I was in my basement on the treadmill where I've had no similar issues. Then I thought it was possibily faulty contacts, haven't used buh-bump just water. Things settled down after I was warmed up, with a couple of strange spikes, but nothing outrageous.

If it wasn't straight-up interference then I think a faulty connection with the strap electrodes was the culprit.

I wouldn't sweat it, you probably needed to warmup for better response. You could also try the buh-bump as has been recommended by other folks, which seems to provide more consistent readings. I'm going to give it a try myself.

--jm

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posted Jan-23-2006 02:38 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Twice in the last week, I have had problems with very high heart rate the first 2/3 of a mile, and then the heart rate settles down to the normal range.

Run the whole time at a very slow jog. Maf is 131 and I run at 126 beats per minute. Today and a few days ago, the run would start off with 118 bpm, then seconds later be 170 then 2 beats later be 116. Rinse repeat with highs in 160s to high 170s then very quickly back down to normal zone.

Then after 2/3 mile running at 123 bpm with spikes only up to 127 - 130. This lasts until the end of the run after completing 6 miles or so.

These runs are often done shortly after I get up, and I haven't had anything to eat or drink. I do drink water during the run.

This is normal for me. I often don't eat before I run in the morning or wait 2 hours after eating.

Is this normal, or am I doing something wrong.

---

I think this is simply a connection issue. If my electrodes are not just right (and adhering well to skin) when I start my run then the HR will jump from 130 - 140 -160 180-200..... I will adjust and they will be normal then fly up again.
I use a dab of liquid dish soap on the electrodes and it adheres well with no probems. This does not happen in the summer because it is so humid in the midwest that you sweat when stepping outside.

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posted Jan-23-2006 05:16 PM               

I think the reason you don't see deterioration of your times is that the real spiral downward is from the 1/2 marathon to the full 26.2 miles! My times are slower than yours, but this is what I have accomplished with an average of 25-32 mpw:

10K: 48:20
10 miles: 1:27 (very hilly) (Crim-Flint,Mi.)
1/2 mar.: 1:47
Marathon: 4:16 (9:47 pace)

As you can see, the marathon is where I fell off substantially. I ran 9:00 pace thru 20 miles and then my hip flexor locked up, forcing a tough last 6 miles, but I made it. The reason for the fall-off could be several things: lack of aerobic condition, not enough miles, etc. So the answer for myself and possibly you if you want to progress to a full mar. is a lot of long slow running ( ala Maffetone) getting in the range of 50 mpw which is what I am now working towards. When your in good shape which I feel I am and can tell you are as well you really can run a good 1/2 without too much difficulty. When I did the full I was shocked at how much more difficult it really was. Going in I never expected it. For my second I will be much better prepared!

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posted Jan-23-2006 08:21 PM               

My first run was today. "Zone 1" which he rated at 130 bpm, 30 mins. I did a whole 2.01 miles LOL

That's considerably slower than my MAF! At least my next run is "Z2"

And I thought MAF was painful!

Diane

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posted Jan-23-2006 08:32 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by diane143:
So as I posted in another thread, I had a coach write me a 12 week off season program to bring me up to my first mtb race and continue with running.

My first run was today. "Zone 1" which he rated at 130 bpm, 30 mins. I did a whole 2.01 miles LOL

That's considerably slower than my MAF! At least my next run is "Z2"

And I thought MAF was painful!

Diane

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I know the feeling because I've targeted MAF-10 for some periods
of time. I do remember the point where I hit an 8:30 mile at a heart
rate of 125 - now that was where I felt it was all coming together.

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posted Jan-23-2006 08:47 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
I know the feeling because I've targeted MAF-10 for some periods
of time. I do remember the point where I hit an 8:30 mile at a heart
rate of 125 - now that was where I felt it was all coming together.

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I know it will! By the end of summer I was running 10's at 133-135. I've just lost some conditioning, hydration and gained a couple of pounds - or something!

Did it once I can do it again! But man, my pace was over 16 min/miles by the time I finished the run!

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posted Jan-24-2006 03:57 PM               

I have a cold and it has reduced me to a shuffle to keep under Maff. I did cut back the planned mileage on my last two runs, but the pace was very very slow due to elevated HR. I felt like I did on the first couple of days of Maff running (actually worse). I couldn't run even the smallest hills because my HR would push up rather fast, and I walked a good bit on even slight inclines.

I am wondering if it would make sense to just wait out the cold, or continue the shuffle with reduced mileage and of course reduced pace. If I'm still getting the benefit of training, I'll keep at it.

Karen

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posted Jan-24-2006 04:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ksabbo:
Just wondering if there is a difference in the quality of a run as long as it is still at Maff.

I have a cold and it has reduced me to a shuffle to keep under Maff. I did cut back the planned mileage on my last two runs, but the pace was very very slow due to elevated HR. I felt like I did on the first couple of days of Maff running (actually worse). I couldn't run even the smallest hills because my HR would push up rather fast, and I walked a good bit on even slight inclines.

I am wondering if it would make sense to just wait out the cold, or continue the shuffle with reduced mileage and of course reduced pace. If I'm still getting the benefit of training, I'll keep at it.

Karen

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taking one or two days to recover from a cold isn't going to have any long term effect on your training. take a day or two off or do a short easy run. You should focus on recovering as quick as possible, not trying to slog through a long run while sick.

It's been my experience that the quality of my running after taking off a day or so while ill does not suffer,. While if I run thru an illness that noticeably impacts my running, the poor quality runs last a few days longer than if I took time off to recuperate.

--jm

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