posted Dec-03-2005 01:25 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

I've found that the treadmill works just as well as outside for training--I've made gains. Also doing at least one run a week on it reduces some impact.

--Jimmy

My Running World

---

I completely agree. I have no proof, but I do believe I could do all
training on a treadmill at zero incline and do a cool weather race at
the top of my game. Further, I'm not interested in any more
ice slipping injuries, so I'll be using the TM more and more. Winter
storm expected tonight, so it may even be sooner than I expected.

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posted Dec-03-2005 01:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by BJL:
I went for my 5.4m path "run" today and I averaged 14:13 and 137!! Only 4 days ago I was at 16m/m and ave at my MAF # of 141. I'm encouraged! It was my longest run ever time-wise - 1:16:44 - I use to run this route in 50min!

A miracle happened! After 52min, my HR dropped to 133-135 and I was able to stay under 141 for the rest of my run - meaning I actually got to run and not walk?! The first 30 min were brutal - couldn't even jog for more than a 1 min w/o going over 141, then it extended to 2m, 3m and then my heart just downshifted - I also noticed I was deeply belly breathing. The only problem is during the week it's hard for me to dedicate an hour to run due to family life....but I'm excited!! Is this how MAF works? Will I get to a point that my HR will "downshift" after only 15 or 10 minutes?

---

This is the typical trend you'll see. However, never forget there will
be ups and downs and you definitely won't see the same thing every
run. Over the long term, you'll eventually hit an overall
consistency that you've never known before. No burnouts, no arbitrary
results, very little differences between "good days" and "bad days".
Just be careful not to fixate on what happens from one day to the next,
keep about 2-3 weeks as the least significant bit.

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posted Dec-03-2005 01:35 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I think the amount of warmup time is very much a personal thing
that requires experimentation. I do notice that in the early stages of
this, the HR climb is fairly rapid and you'll probably be able to slow
it down quite a bit by resetting to 5, 10, maybe even 15 beats below
(if you can tolerate it). You'll get to the point after 6 weeks or so
where it doesn't climb much at all if you're not in the heat or something.
That's also the point where you really get your arms around how things
stabilize indicating that you're warmed up. Right now you're just starting
to work these very low zones, so it looks like it's climbing a lot from
the start. When you warm up, are you doing it at much lower heart
rates or are you right under MAF? Hopefully you're doing a very slow
jog, otherwise you're jumping right in and you will start the climb quickly.
Also, you want to avoid taking in much in the way of carbs just before
or very early in your run.

---

I generally warm up for .8 miles in the 120s HR and then pick up after that on MAF test. I eat no carbs a few hrs before runs.

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posted Dec-03-2005 04:29 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tchuck:
I generally warm up for .8 miles in the 120s HR and then pick up after that on MAF test. I eat no carbs a few hrs before runs.

---

sounds like you're right on target. If you don't see good results,
it certainly won't be because you're not doing things right! (how's
that for a double negative)

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posted Dec-03-2005 05:52 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I completely agree. I have no proof, but I do believe I could do all
training on a treadmill at zero incline and do a cool weather race at
the top of my game. Further, I'm not interested in any more
ice slipping injuries, so I'll be using the TM more and more. Winter
storm expected tonight, so it may even be sooner than I expected.

---

So smart, Jesse....

After smashing my knee one week ago today, I tried moving on the TM this morning. I did the usual 10 minute warmup and got up tp 4mph walking. I tried running for a few steps, but felt a very dull ache on my knee where I hit it, so I backed off, staying at 4mph and just increased the incline until I hit my MAF and stayed there. I got it to 10% incline, stayed there for about 20 minutes, then began the cooldown for 10 minutes, decreasing the incline and pace slowly. In my final minute my HR was 92!

This afternoon it is a little achy, but that may be from splitting wood for two hours (at a HR of who knows) ;-)

This may mean to not continue focusing on the Feb marathon and look at the long time picture of the Hardrock 100 in July, my 6th...

I'll keep you all posted!

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posted Dec-03-2005 08:21 PM               

http://tinyurl.com/ajpcj

This article is directly related to Maffetone and Mittleman who also recommend that we reduce or eliminate our use of sugar as a fuel and in our daily lives.

*******************************************************
From all the things I have read (but you certainly know better than I) sugar is bad, bad....it causes a spike in energy, and then a crash. As most all of you know, I mainly use Hammer Nutrition products for my fuel and they also send the same message...that simple sugars are not good for us!

Most of my training these days follows a low HR training regimen, ala Phil Maffetone ( and more so, Stu Mittleman. STu's book "Slow Burn" describes in detail how he went from a regular ultrarunner to a world record holder by switching to a low HR training regimen and eliminating simple sugars from his diet. Low HR training is basically run all or almost all of your running at 60-70% of your estimated max. He does give a formula example to use (180-age+10 for fit persons), but also tells you to eventually get away from that formula and go by RPE (relative perceived exertion). After awhile you CAN tell about what HR you are running at.
I started running the low HR training two years ago after I had herniated a disc at Wasatch and could not finish most of my races due to an ever tightening of my hamstring area (Sciatic nerve). After just one month on this training, I went down and finished the Bandera 100K with no pain, no bonking and not a bad finish. My first real test was Bighorn....I started out very slow, way in the back of the pack and after I warmed up (about 30 minutes), I started to move through the field. While running this I used nothing but Sustained Energy (Hammer Nutrition)...I ate nothing and had one other thing, some broth at the turnaround. I finished strong, in 13th place in under 30 hours. I feel the training had a lot to do with it, but the no sugar prevented the nausea that had plagued me in the past.

The idea of the low HR training is to train your body to use more fat as your fuel. In Stu Mittleman's book, he describes the feedback you will get while running in order to know when your HR is low or aerobic (Fat burning) and high or anaerobic (sugar burning). I feel that training to burn fat fits right in with what we are doing in ultrarunning. He also mentions how, if you stay with this training, that you will be running at your previous, faster pace at a much lower HR, therefore finish faster. I'm not sure how this would have worked for me in my old days of road racing...I liked my hill repeats and my track workouts (and sugar).

Anyway, what I'm saying here is that these two things are related....low HR training and low or no sugar intake. I, like Roy, have given up sodas and most candy ( I still love chocolate) and I feel more in control when I'm running my 100's from the low HR training. At MMT this past year I think it helped me in finishing with a PB and feeling strong to the finish. It wasn't until I got off of my game plan after Edinburgh that I crashed and struggled, drinking Coke at every aid station...I think if I had stuck to my SE game plan and not have done the Short Mt section hard, I may have had an even better finish.

Here are some links that refer to the low HR training and the low sugar diet and fueling strategy:

http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/fuelinghandbook.pdf
http://www.eimed.com/Articles/ADS.htm
http://www.rrca.org/publicat/slowdown.html
http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460
http://www.worldultrafit.com/whois.html
http://www.joehenderson.com/lsdbook/forum.html

Happy Trails and training!
Steve P.

PS: Be glad you are living in a mostly snow free state....I slipped on some ice last week slamming my knee hard on the frozen road. I still can't run...I was able to, though, walk on the treadmill today at 4 mph at a 10% grade to get my HR to my aerobic pace ;-) This is Hardrock training!

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posted Dec-03-2005 08:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ultrasteve:
So smart, Jesse....

After smashing my knee one week ago today, I tried moving on the TM this morning. I did the usual 10 minute warmup and got up tp 4mph walking. I tried running for a few steps, but felt a very dull ache on my knee where I hit it, so I backed off, staying at 4mph and just increased the incline until I hit my MAF and stayed there. I got it to 10% incline, stayed there for about 20 minutes, then began the cooldown for 10 minutes, decreasing the incline and pace slowly. In my final minute my HR was 92!

This afternoon it is a little achy, but that may be from splitting wood for two hours (at a HR of who knows) ;-)

This may mean to not continue focusing on the Feb marathon and look at the long time picture of the Hardrock 100 in July, my 6th...

I'll keep you all posted!

---

I don't think you need to ditch the Feb marathon just yet. My
guess is that you can take a couple of weeks off and you'll
be fine as you probably didn't do too much damage to this
point.

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posted Dec-03-2005 08:43 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ultrasteve:


PS: Be glad you are living in a mostly snow free state....I slipped on some ice last week slamming my knee hard on the frozen road. I still can't run...I was able to, though, walk on the treadmill today at 4 mph at a 10% grade to get my HR to my aerobic pace ;-) This is Hardrock training!

---

Hey - VHTRC - I'm thinking of doing the fatass 50k on the bull
run run course next weekend. Unfortunately, we have snow and
even worse, we have lots of ice. I'd rather have more snow,
less ice. It's tough to do MAF running in snow, that's for sure.
I tried that last year.

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posted Dec-04-2005 12:06 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Hey - VHTRC - I'm thinking of doing the fatass 50k on the bull
run run course next weekend. Unfortunately, we have snow and
even worse, we have lots of ice. I'd rather have more snow,
less ice. It's tough to do MAF running in snow, that's for sure.
I tried that last year.

---

Jesse...

You ought to consider joining the club, it's a great one. Tell them all that I said hi, my wife and I usually make the drive down for many of the runs, but we're now raising our grandaughters and can no longer do it.

More snow coming tomorrow and again on Monday night

Treadmill running is great for the winter!
Steve

[This message has been edited by ultrasteve (edited Dec-04-2005).]

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posted Dec-04-2005 05:31 PM            

Mile pace dist ave hr Max HR
1 14:57 1.00 116 129
2 15:48 1.00 118 125
3 15:26 1.00 119 125
4 15:14 1.00 118 125
5 2:02 0.13 114 124

All miles were run around a park. Perfectly flat.

Why did my time per mile get faster?

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posted Dec-04-2005 06:34 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
What is wrong with this picture?

Mile pace dist ave hr Max HR
1 14:57 1.00 116 129
2 15:48 1.00 118 125
3 15:26 1.00 119 125
4 15:14 1.00 118 125
5 2:02 0.13 114 124

All miles were run around a park. Perfectly flat.

Why did my time per mile get faster?

---

Nothing wrong with that picture to me. Remarkably even HR.
Speed variations outside can be due to wind, or lack of, during parts of the run. Running with the wind as opposed to against the win affects pace. Sometimes something that looks flat is actually a slight upgrade or downgrade. Also depends when the performance enhancing drugs kick in.

Have you run the same exact run before and had a different result?

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Dec-04-2005 07:14 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ultrasteve:

Anyway, what I'm saying here is that these two things are related....low HR training and low or no sugar intake. I, like Roy, have given up sodas and most candy ( I still love chocolate) and I feel more in control when I'm running my 100's from the low HR training.

---

Hmmmm.... maybe this is one of my issues with my HR being higher after my HM in early October. I fell a bit off the good food wagon, since the mtb racing season is over as well. While I don't eat nearly as much sugar as I had up till June 2004, I had really cut back during the summer months while in heavy training and race season. I've kind of been in the "I busted my butt for so long and can relax a bit now" mode.

Something to think about and try.... damn the holidays though!

Thanks for the nudge.

Diane

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posted Dec-04-2005 07:16 PM            

Have only done 3 Maf runs and they were all indoors on a treadmill with no incline. I just didn't expect negative splits. Yes its my first week of running this way so maybe this variance is normal.

This is also one to 2 minutes faster per mile than the treadmill. I would not be surprised if the treadmill accuracy was off though.

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posted Dec-04-2005 09:24 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
What is wrong with this picture?

Mile pace dist ave hr Max HR
1 14:57 1.00 116 129
2 15:48 1.00 118 125
3 15:26 1.00 119 125
4 15:14 1.00 118 125
5 2:02 0.13 114 124

All miles were run around a park. Perfectly flat.

Why did my time per mile get faster?

---

I do agree with Jimmy's response. In addition, if you
just do a few miles and you see the increasing pace,
it may imply that you were not fully warmed up. Before
you are fully warmed up, it will be a bit jumpy. You may
even find that after about 6 or 7 miles, you may jump
down by 2-5 beats. After that point, the pace will
continuously slow.

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posted Dec-04-2005 09:45 PM               

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Dec-04-2005 11:20 PM               

I ran my first marathon at NYC on November, and finished in 4:31:52. A respectable time for a first marathon, but I'd run a 2:00 1/2 a couple of months earlier and was hoping for better. I couldn't hold the pace (goal: 4:15) that I'd set. Thinking about my training, I think I ran most of my runs including long runs too fast. Three weeks before the marathon I ran 23 miles at a 9:45 pace, and got sick soon thereafter (it took me 10 days to feel remotely better, and wasn't 100% at the marathon). I'm thinking I didn't yet have the aerobic base to meet my goals.

So, I decided to try HR training, because I just got a new speed and distance system with the HRM. I tried to take my max HR on the track, but I don't think I pushed hard enough. The highest number I saw was 178 but I think I can push harder. Calculated would be max 185. This Maffetone method is attractive because it's straightforward for me: keep the HR at under 145 and run.

My first run was frustrating because my pace was around 11:30, but I'd run 10 the day before at a 9:30 pace and maybe I was tired. Yesterday I did a 7 miler and got these numbers:

Mile Pace avg HR
1 10:23 133
2 10:30 141
3 11:06 140 (two short but steep hills)
4 10:35 139
5 10:39 140
6 10:38 141
7 10:47 142

I was in my target HR for the huge majority of the run, and it felt great. All of my runs were like this during the week, and I loved it because for once I wasn't racing myself, I just focus on the heart rate and let the pace fall where it may.

I'm planning to start a Pfitz program for a 10 miler on April 2, and perhaps increase toward a marathon in late May. The Pfitz program is for 15 weeks, but it starts LT runs early on. I would like to do some more base training, so I'm trying to figure out how long to do pure base training, and when to add some speed. I ran 30 miles last week, and plan to do a minimum of 30 miles per week for the foreseeable future, increasing after the holidays. Sorry I'm so vague, I'd just like some ideas and insight about where to go from here, and this thread seems like a great place to start. Thanks in advance...

Laura

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posted Dec-05-2005 01:14 AM               

The Slow Train to Fitness
(Stu Mittleman, Mark Allen, Maffetone)
http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/0496/9604bsft.html

Q&A with Maffetone (diet)
http://outside1.away.com/outside/disc/guest/phil/2-15-96/pat.html

Mike Pigg & Maffetone Eating:
http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/0596/9605finu.html

Endurance:
http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/0297/9702feendur.html

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Dec-05-2005 07:56 AM               

Thanks,

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[This message has been edited by ultrasteve (edited Dec-05-2005).]

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posted Dec-05-2005 01:53 PM            

Did an 8mile run over the weeknd. Was very slow (avg 12.5/mile) but it was pretty easy I did have to walk a little towards the end more. Then today I decided to do the TM test since someone said you can see if your number is to high or low. I didn't even get it up to 158. It seemed like I would be going alot faster then I normally woul BEFORE I started HR training. So I avg 143 then 149 then 153 in three miles. It did spike a little during the last mile to 156. So is my number to high?

Obvioulsy running outside and on the TM is a huge difference on pace and effort levels. Is doing most of my weekly runs on the TM and my long runs outside going to be okay with the HR training as long as I keep in my zones?

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posted Dec-05-2005 03:21 PM            

I have almost given up talking about it on the Carbo Canteen, but I eat a no-carb diet and fuel on fat. I have a running friend that does a low-carb taper before races and he has been c coming in the top 3 around Boston for his age group.

We also train the Lydiard way...which appears to be very similar (the same) as Maffetone.

Suzette
Boston, MA

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posted Dec-05-2005 07:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ltridico:

I'm planning to start a Pfitz program for a 10 miler on April 2, and perhaps increase toward a marathon in late May. The Pfitz program is for 15 weeks, but it starts LT runs early on. I would like to do some more base training, so I'm trying to figure out how long to do pure base training, and when to add some speed. I ran 30 miles last week, and plan to do a minimum of 30 miles per week for the foreseeable future, increasing after the holidays. Sorry I'm so vague, I'd just like some ideas and insight about where to go from here, and this thread seems like a great place to start. Thanks in advance...

Laura

---

Hi Laura- it sounds like you are on the right track and you have a
good reason to do some base training. If you're race is on 4/2 and
you want to follow a Pfitz program, it sounds like the cards are
already dealt for you - there won't be much space within Pfitz's
training program for base training. His programs are very aggressive,
generally assuming you are already well-conditioned aerobically, so
you won't get much base training effect from them. My best answer
to you would be that you should get in at least 12 weeks of base
training before doing anything aggressive, but that certainly wouldn't
be consistent with the desire to complete a Pfitz 15 week. At this
point, you'll have to decide whether you're ready for intense training
or if you want to work on aerobic conditioning. I'm not sure you'll
be able to cram in both before 4/2. If you mix in tempos and other
speedwork at the beginning, you won't likely reap the benefits of
low heart rate training.

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posted Dec-05-2005 07:27 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jackster:

Did an 8mile run over the weeknd. Was very slow (avg 12.5/mile) but it was pretty easy I did have to walk a little towards the end more. Then today I decided to do the TM test since someone said you can see if your number is to high or low. I didn't even get it up to 158. It seemed like I would be going alot faster then I normally woul BEFORE I started HR training. So I avg 143 then 149 then 153 in three miles. It did spike a little during the last mile to 156. So is my number to high?

Obvioulsy running outside and on the TM is a huge difference on pace and effort levels. Is doing most of my weekly runs on the TM and my long runs outside going to be okay with the HR training as long as I keep in my zones?

---

I'm not sure I know the answer to your first question above. However,
it is most definitely ok to do most of your weekly runs on the TM and
long runs outside as long as you stay in zone. I frequently do that.

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posted Dec-05-2005 10:12 PM               

Just curious, do you think that limited lactate threshhold training has a strong negative effect on building an aerobic base, or can I continue to build base while doing a few of these workouts so long as the majority of my miles are at a HR of 145 bpm or slower? I'm new to the whole HR thing, so I'm gathering a lot of info right now.

Thanks again!

Laura

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posted Dec-05-2005 10:18 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ltridico:

Just curious, do you think that limited lactate threshhold training has a strong negative effect on building an aerobic base, or can I continue to build base while doing a few of these workouts so long as the majority of my miles are at a HR of 145 bpm or slower? I'm new to the whole HR thing, so I'm gathering a lot of info right now.

---

First of all - I want to be clear in stating that LT training can be very
valuable and I don't want to discount it in the least. However, it will
definitely interfere with base building because just below LT, you
are using virtually entirely glycogen as an energy source and you
are using mostly fast twitch vs slow twitch fibers. Part of basebuilding
is a process of exclusively training yourself to run on mostly fat
for fuel and mostly slow twitch fibers, so even once a week will
interfere. That's not to say that it can't work for something, but
it won't likely give you the low heart rate training benefits.

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posted Dec-08-2005 09:48 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by CSuzette:
UltraSteve,

I have almost given up talking about it on the Carbo Canteen, but I eat a no-carb diet and fuel on fat. I have a running friend that does a low-carb taper before races and he has been c coming in the top 3 around Boston for his age group.

We also train the Lydiard way...which appears to be very similar (the same) as Maffetone.

Suzette
Boston, MA

---

Hi Suzette....

What you eat while on this program is as important as the low HR running. The idea is to eat less carbs, more fat in order to fuel the body better. But you need to eat good fat. A good companion book to "Training for Endurance" is "Eating for Endurance" by Phil Maffetone. Stu Mitleman also goes into this is his book, Slow Burn. Looks like you're already doing that!

Lydiard is much more similar to Maffetone than most people realize, as is the Van Aaken Method, which I followed back in the early 80's. The main emphasis is slow aerobic building, then ramp up to the faster stuff to prepare for the more stressful racing. One thing that Lydiard adds is hills, which is a really great way to get your legs stronger for the faster running. In my sport of trail ultrarunning, I mostly use powerhike repeats in the mountains as my "harder" work in the final couple of months before my most important race, which is the Hardrock 100 in July.

Knee is a little better, but not much. I still cannot run and walking is difficult most times. It will be two weeks on Saturday since I fell. I am now considering bagging the marathon and instead going down to run an invitational 72 miler in the Massanutten Mountains in Virginia. I can more easily train for and complete that than I can a faster road marathon. They are on the same weekend, the last weekend of February.

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