posted Nov-30-2005 06:16 PM               

My problem is a good one...I guess. I started 3 wks ago at 34mpw (running 6 days with one day of rest). I have added 2mpw each wk, so I will do 38 miles this wk. Tomorrow is suppose to be a rest day for me, but I feel great and I am tempted to run 7 days per wk now. Should I run or continue with the rest day each wk?? This is the part of the training that I like the most, but I don't know what is the smarter in the long run.

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posted Nov-30-2005 07:10 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by KudzuRunner:
Thanks for the advice.

I'm 47. 180 - 47 = 133. Add ten points gives me 143.

My max HR is 198-200, based on considerable self-testing over the past two years. So 143 is about 72% of HR max.

I always start my runs easy, having read much about Kenyan athletes who start their progression runs "stumbling slow," as the saying goes. I'm also a fan--well, a disciple--of John Kellogg, who encourages the same thing.

Four days a week I run very easy 3 mile recovery runs. HR there is always 140 or below. Maffetone would have no problem with that.

Although they always start slow, with a HR stabilizing in the high 130s, my other three runs of the week have tended to stabilize around 150. And sometimes, quite honestly, I'm able to work my way into marathon pace--with a HR somewhere in the 160s, which is to say between 80 and 85% HR max--and feel strong and solid there.

I suspect that these latter sorts of high aerobic runs, which Kellogg advocates, are heresy to Maffetone. I'm torn, frankly. Kellogg's approach is definitely a moderated one: don't strain during long runs, warm very easily into runs, don't do much V02max work and anaerobic capacity work until racing season and do it very judiciously then.

Thanks, Jesse, for giving me the quick version.

Now what would you say if I told you that I hate the way the HR monitor constricts my chest?

---

I think the progression style runs you've been doing sound like
a generally good approach, but certainly a contradiction during the
basebuilding phase. If you want to give the MAF stuff a try, you
want to give some period of dedication to it, then after that, I think
the Kellogg approach sounds like a good one. Once you have a
strong base, you burn fat at much higher heart rates so you'll
stay in a good aerobic zone for pretty high speeds. Incidentally,
another feature of this is that you will no longer need carbs, or
at least to a much lesser degree, on marathons and even longer
distances. I didn't go through the glycogen depletion mode this
past Saturday, nor did I experience any shutdown late in the
race, other than legs simply getting tired. I took one gel at
mile 17, as a precaution, since I hadn't sustained that pace
for that long before. Perhaps if I had run it all out at maximum
effort, things would have been different, but I already carried a
pace that I wasn't sure I could maintain (at least not before
the race). Next time, if it's still cool, I'll go for 15-30 sec faster
per mile.

Can't do anything for your HRM discomfort, sorry, and since I'm
not making any $ off of this, it really doesn't matter to me!
Although it is nice getting new guinea pigs to join the science
experiment.

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posted Nov-30-2005 07:17 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by portlander:
I've been considering this type of training as a new year's resolution. But I want to be sure I'm clear on this: I'm 32, MaxHR is 189, been running for 3 years, basically injury free for 2 years. So my MAF number should be (180-32)+10=168? That's 89% of my max. Even if I used MAF-15, I would be at 153 or 80%. An easy run for me today is done at 145-148 bpm.

What would a maffetone schedule look like for me? Maybe I just don't work for this "formula", and should consider a different type of HR-based plan?

---

I saw scoobiedoobie addressed the math error below (but haven't
looked at all the subsequent posts yet), but I would say that you
don't want to add the 10. Maffetone really just gives a +5 for
injury free running, but I wouldn't use it with a low max heart rate.
Mark Allen says to keep your runs at 80-100% of MAF in either
case, the lower the better. My target during basebuilding was
always MAF-10, with an occasional drift nearly up to MAF. I
would suggest you do the same.

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posted Nov-30-2005 07:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:

Do you run the hills at your MAF heart-rate or according to another program. I am still in aerobic only phase but am trying to plan for what I will be doing in a couple of months. Seems you would not follow MAF HR for hills as you already do that during the 12 week phase.

Thanks!

---

In basebuilding, I stay strictly under MAF going up the hills.
Since I spent 5 months basebuilding, I don't worry about it going
up hills anymore, but nowadays, it really doesn't go up much when
I go up hills unless they are really steep. In fact, I will go on a
limb to say that I don't even really need the HR monitor anymore
because I can feel when I'm getting well above MAF, but I use
it just to record the data and track whether something might
be wrong.

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posted Nov-30-2005 07:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by BJL:
Is it okay to run/walk every day while HRT for aerobic base? I'm starting over and find that my 2.25mile loop is so slow while trying stay under my "magic number" - 36min! I'm cold b/c I'm not working very hard - but I'm going to persevere thru the frustration for the next 12 wks. Right now I walk more than run. Do you all recommend every day or 5 or 6 days while base building or is it better to cross train in btn "running" days (I know that this is the recommendation but this aerobic training seems different b/c it feels like it will never get to all running w/o walking!?) I do have a Nordic Trac and bike in the basement, but I prefer being outside. Would I be better off walking fast or on the Nordic Trac in between "running" days? I just feel like I'm not getting anywhere trying to stay under 141 (using the 180 formula; but I did see a 193 on my HRM at the end of a 5k). I'm 39 - running since early July, 3 5ks PR each one; but off the last 4 weeks due to sinusitis/pnuemonia). Thanks.

---

If your body can take running every day (or perhaps 6 days a week,
as I do), I think you're best off doing it. I find that things improve
on subsequent days running and they fizzle off a bit after a day
of rest. Do you have access to a treadmill? I'd be interested to
see what your pace would be at 0 incline on a treadmill. If it's a
bit faster, you may want to mix in some treadmill runs just to get
some more comfortable speeds in. To be honest with you, if you
are walking more than running, I think you should give it about
8 weeks and if things don't change, you should let yourself go
at higher heart rates for a while and revisit. Unless, you are
enjoying things that way. I'm thinking that your pneumonia may
be a major factor in why your pace is what it is. Have you been
checking your resting heart rate and do you know how it compares
to when you were completely healthy?

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posted Nov-30-2005 07:35 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tchuck:
You should probably only add 5 to your MAF HR so for you - with your experience, your max MAF HR would be 153 and Jesse says, the lower the better especially early in the runs.

You can also do steady hill work with this type of training but again, stay under the MAF HR.

To test yourself, warm up a mile or more starting slowly (don't count this as part of the 3 - 5 MAF miles). At the end of that mile try to get to your MAF HR and then maintain that HR as close as possible for the next 3 - 5 miles adjusting the speed as needed. Do the test on the treadmill at the same incline each time for consistency
eg. test below and time
Mile 1 9:00
2 9:10
3 9:14
4 9:21

and then every 3 weeks do the same test at same MAF HR and compare the times. They should go down over time. I just started so I am excited to see what my times will do since I have always trained intensely.

---

You definitely understand this stuff as well as I do! I hope you see
some results - one thing that I really expect is that after a few months
you will be back at your old long run training pace for your typical
training runs, but at 20-30 beats lower heart rate.

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posted Nov-30-2005 07:43 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by tconnor:
I have been only been doing this training for 3 wks now and like most people, I have days when I love it and days when I just hope that it really works. However, I am determined to stay with it for at least 12 wks.

My problem is a good one...I guess. I started 3 wks ago at 34mpw (running 6 days with one day of rest). I have added 2mpw each wk, so I will do 38 miles this wk. Tomorrow is suppose to be a rest day for me, but I feel great and I am tempted to run 7 days per wk now. Should I run or continue with the rest day each wk?? This is the part of the training that I like the most, but I don't know what is the smarter in the long run.

---

You know, it's really hard to say. Rest days are not just to prevent
injury - they are also to enable the muscle recovery and increase
in strength after your workouts. Without enough rest, it may actually
hinder your improvement. With that said, I've noticed throughout
this process for the last 6 months that my recovery time gets shorter
and shorter. Therefore, after these workouts you may actually have,
effectively, a day's recovery by 8-12 hours later. Even I am baffled
by the fact that I can run 5 marathons plus a 50 mile race within
2 months, getting a PR every time, and still feel good afterwards
and be back on normal training schedule within a day. All 6 months
after a three month period of no running whatsoever (and only 2.5
years since I started running from scratch).

I say give it a try for a couple of weeks, take it easy, but definitely
give yourself a rest day at least every 2-3 weeks. Listen carefully
to your body.

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posted Nov-30-2005 10:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
If your body can take running every day (or perhaps 6 days a week,
as I do), I think you're best off doing it. I find that things improve
on subsequent days running and they fizzle off a bit after a day
of rest. Do you have access to a treadmill? I'd be interested to
see what your pace would be at 0 incline on a treadmill. If it's a
bit faster, you may want to mix in some treadmill runs just to get
some more comfortable speeds in. To be honest with you, if you
are walking more than running, I think you should give it about
8 weeks and if things don't change, you should let yourself go
at higher heart rates for a while and revisit. Unless, you are
enjoying things that way. I'm thinking that your pneumonia may
be a major factor in why your pace is what it is. Have you been
checking your resting heart rate and do you know how it compares
to when you were completely healthy?

---

Thanks for your response! I ave'd 155 for HR & 10-10:30/m for Jul-Oct. My last 5k time was 29:06 (9:23/m); my 2nd 5k was 30:09 (9:43/m & ave HR 178); So should I stay under the 141 for 8 weeks or maybe try 145 instead? I've been doing "5ks" on the skier at 133 - not even a sweat or breathing any differently and the pace is 9:50/m. I have no treadmill - just a Nordic skier & bike. I LOVE running! My Rest HR has been as low as 60, but generally 66-72. I'm small (4'10") and like a small animal my HR is fast?! I can "sing" & talk to my ds & dog easily in the 140/150s. HR is always FAST for first 1-2 mi, I don't feel relaxed until 3 or 4 and then get into a "groove" and I can go forever. So should I up my target #? Thank you!

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posted Dec-01-2005 06:54 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by BJL:
Thanks for your response! I ave'd 155 for HR & 10-10:30/m for Jul-Oct. My last 5k time was 29:06 (9:23/m); my 2nd 5k was 30:09 (9:43/m & ave HR 178); So should I stay under the 141 for 8 weeks or maybe try 145 instead? I've been doing "5ks" on the skier at 133 - not even a sweat or breathing any differently and the pace is 9:50/m. I have no treadmill - just a Nordic skier & bike. I LOVE running! My Rest HR has been as low as 60, but generally 66-72. I'm small (4'10") and like a small animal my HR is fast?! I can "sing" & talk to my ds & dog easily in the 140/150s. HR is always FAST for first 1-2 mi, I don't feel relaxed until 3 or 4 and then get into a "groove" and I can go forever. So should I up my target #? Thank you!

---

I will say this - no one's max heart rate or resting heart rate is
too *high* for the Maffetone approach, but some, I believe are too
low, and they have to adjust the MAF to a much lower value. If
you want to focus on building aerobic base, you'll want to choose
the lowest possible value. And you'll want to use that value for
all of your activities during basebuilding. You always want to be
ready to make your own adjustments to make sure that you're
not doing something that will discourage you from wanting to
run. However, you should realize that if you up the running
heart rate, you may see little or no progress in the aerobic
development. But, so what, if you're enjoying your running and
you don't have specific reasons driving you to this approach,
then why let it drive you crazy?

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posted Dec-01-2005 08:15 PM            

First marathon hurt my right IT band second hurt the left IT band.

180-49 = 131. I ran at that or under heartrate last week.

Then I noticed you said subtract 10 bpm. So today tried keeping it under 121. Times are incredibly slow, but if I can hobble through painful marathons, dealing with this frustration is easy.
Today mile one 15 47 ave 117 bpm (Warm up mile)
mile 2 16 20 ave 117 bpm
mile 3 16 58 ave 118 bpm
mile 4 17 20 ave 118 bpm

Do I have the concept correct?

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posted Dec-01-2005 08:22 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
I want to see if I get this right. Am 49 started running in March of 2005 and have run 2 marathons in the last 5 weeks.

First marathon hurt my right IT band second hurt the left IT band.

180-49 = 131. I ran at that or under heartrate last week.

Then I noticed you said subtract 10 bpm. So today tried keeping it under 121. Times are incredibly slow, but if I can hobble through painful marathons, dealing with this frustration is easy.
Today mile one 15 47 ave 117 bpm (Warm up mile)
mile 2 16 20 ave 117 bpm
mile 3 16 58 ave 118 bpm
mile 4 17 20 ave 118 bpm

Do I have the concept correct?

---

Wow, now you are a glutton for punishment! Hurt after the first
one, so why not go back for a second round just over a month
later!! You've got the concept correct and you're being very
conservative. If you're able to tolerate those paces, see what
happens after a 3-6 weeks. Actually, those are the paces I
started with too, back in May, so they're not that wacky. Fortunately,
it didn't last long at that pace. It is interesting how in recovery, the
really slow paces can seem tolerable and, quite frankly, it's a good
way to phase back in with minimal impact.

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posted Dec-01-2005 11:55 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
I want to see if I get this right. Am 49 started running in March of 2005 and have run 2 marathons in the last 5 weeks.

---

Wow! in spite the injuries...awesome achievement. Karnaze-like.

Like Jess said--it's slow at first. I just started this week and am running 10:30:-11:30 miles, even though I just made a 3:28 (7:57 ) marathon with no wall. After doing almost all my miles during training 9:20 and below, it feels like slow motion, but from past experience, I know it's temporary. I'm not only going through recovery from the marathon, (run just 11 days ago), but it's time to rebuild the base.

Stick with it. It'll pay off. You seem to be pushing your limits, which reminds me of "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman--check it out--good book.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

My Running World

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posted Dec-02-2005 10:15 AM            

This morning I tried the 5-mile MAF test. I figured my MAF HR as 180-37=143. I had intended to warm up a little better, but once I got an idea of how slowly I would be running in order to keep my heart rate down, I thought I had better get started... this was going to take a while! I was also getting a poor signal from my HRM during the first 1/2 mile or so, so my pace was a little messed up initially. It was also rather windy, so at certain places on the track I was running into a strong headwind. Anyway, according to my Garmin, this is what I did:

Mile Pace Ave HR
1 12:53 137
2 10:19 142
3 10:53 142
4 10:49 143
5 10:36 144

I expected my pace to decrease over time, but even ignoring the first mile I kind of bounced around. Is this because I didn't warm up properly?

Here's another question: I remember someone suggesting that the rhythm of your breathing is a good indicator of what zone you are training in. When I paid attention this morning, my breathing was mostly 3/3 (3 steps while inhaling, 3 steps while exhaling). Is this a good indicator of an aerobic workout? On most of my training runs I think my breathing has been 2/3 or sometimes 2/2.

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posted Dec-02-2005 01:06 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by msteed:
I'd like some feedback on this.

Mile Pace Ave HR
1 12:53 137
2 10:19 142
3 10:53 142
4 10:49 143
5 10:36 144

I expected my pace to decrease over time, but even ignoring the first mile I kind of bounced around. Is this because I didn't warm up properly?

Here's another question: I remember someone suggesting that the rhythm of your breathing is a good indicator of what zone you are training in. When I paid attention this morning, my breathing was mostly 3/3 (3 steps while inhaling, 3 steps while exhaling). Is this a good indicator of an aerobic workout? On most of my training runs I think my breathing has been 2/3 or sometimes 2/2.

---

You can chuck out the first mile and call it warm-up. You have an expected drop between mile 2+3. Then it looks like you ran a bit faster, and your ave HR reflected it (144 must mean you were 142-146).
The wind definitely can have an effect. It might have been less windy in the last mile.

I do my MAF on a treadmill, so that way variables like wind, rain, and heat are out of the picture. If you're going to do yours outside, you might try a windless day. Although think if you try one every couple of weeks, you'll eeventually see a trend of progress, even if the variables are messing with the time a bit.

The breathing question is beyond my current ken.

That's my analysis. I'm sure others on this thread can take it deeper.

--Jimmy

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posted Dec-02-2005 01:39 PM               

e.g. from today on the TM:

Cool Down 3.0 speed
time av HR
5:00 110
10:00 95
15:00 92

Today, I finally determined a benchmark speed for 5 mile recovery runs on the TM. My current speed for 5 miles is 5.7 mph. After a slow warm-up mile, I keep the last four miles at 5.7 speed on %0 incline. By the very end of the last mile, my HR is peaking at my MAF of 141. I do it this way because I like practicing an even pace, and at best on long runs a progression pace from slow to fast.

From today:
mile time av HR
.5 6:32 103
1 5:55 115
2 10:31 127
3 10:31 132
4 10:31 137
4.5 5:15 139
5 5:16 141 (highest I saw was 142--blips)

Now I have something to work with. When I find my HR is getting lower, I'll just pop it up to 5.8, then 5.9, and so on.

Any comments or observations are always welcome.

--Jimmy

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posted Dec-02-2005 06:35 PM               

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posted Dec-02-2005 06:47 PM               

< sorry - I tried to post a coolrunning graph here, but it seems to
require a password. If you click my running log below, select
the "graph" option, leave "graph all of 2005", select "pace" under
what to graph, select "week" under time block, select "running"
under sport, select "treadmill run" under workout and then you can
pull up this graph>

I'm not sure I've really lost that much aerobic conditioning, but certainly
I'm losing a lot of the great, fast pace, at the low heart rates. It will
be interesting to see if the trend continues if I maintain my same habits.

I also wanted to make clear, if I hadn't earlier, the side benefits, which
may be obvious, but which I didn't fully expect to appreciate:

1. I really don't need any carbs during marathons, certainly nothing
beyond the sports drink they provide.

2. I no longer experience any form of glycogen depletion. Not even
in the 50 mile race!

3. It is absolutely no problem whatsoever to run much faster
for an entire marathon without having ever run a long run at nearly
the pace.

4. If you work in some treadmill runs, you can maximize the
pace at low heart rates and get effectively some "speed work"
in. As long as you do most of your runs, especially the long
ones, you'll be fine setting the TM at 0 incline in order to get
the highest possible speed. I did this on the order of twice
a week.

5. You'll find a switch in what happens late in long races, from
having to slow down because your heart rate is climbing so much
to having to speed up because your heart rate is falling so much
due to legs getting tired. Fortunately, you can push yourself
through legs getting tired, but you can't go past the point where
you've run out of heart rate!

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Dec-02-2005).]

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posted Dec-03-2005 09:55 AM               

I test my MAF on treadmill at 1.5% incline to simulate outside. I did my second test 10 days after my first one at this same incline but this time I did a 1 mile warm up vs. 1/2 mile warm up. Is this enough warm up? My paces are different depending on warm up. Maybe I just use the one mile and work off of that.

1/2 mile w/u maintaining my MAF HR of 146
Mile 1 7:24
Mile 2 7:59
Mile 3 8:01

1 mile w/u
Mile 1 7:57
Mile 2 8:06
Mile 3 8:17

Do you think the 146 might me a bit challenging as I go up 9 -11 beats per mile?????

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posted Dec-03-2005 11:11 AM               

--Jimmy

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posted Dec-03-2005 11:26 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tchuck:
Jesse,
Interesting comment on 0% incline and running at faster speeds (speed work). Never really thought about that.

I test my MAF on treadmill at 1.5% incline to simulate outside. I did my second test 10 days after my first one at this same incline but this time I did a 1 mile warm up vs. 1/2 mile warm up. Is this enough warm up? My paces are different depending on warm up. Maybe I just use the one mile and work off of that.

1/2 mile w/u maintaining my MAF HR of 146
Mile 1 7:24
Mile 2 7:59
Mile 3 8:01

1 mile w/u
Mile 1 7:57
Mile 2 8:06
Mile 3 8:17

Do you think the 146 might me a bit challenging as I go up 9 -11 beats per mile?????

---

I think the amount of warmup time is very much a personal thing
that requires experimentation. I do notice that in the early stages of
this, the HR climb is fairly rapid and you'll probably be able to slow
it down quite a bit by resetting to 5, 10, maybe even 15 beats below
(if you can tolerate it). You'll get to the point after 6 weeks or so
where it doesn't climb much at all if you're not in the heat or something.
That's also the point where you really get your arms around how things
stabilize indicating that you're warmed up. Right now you're just starting
to work these very low zones, so it looks like it's climbing a lot from
the start. When you warm up, are you doing it at much lower heart
rates or are you right under MAF? Hopefully you're doing a very slow
jog, otherwise you're jumping right in and you will start the climb quickly.
Also, you want to avoid taking in much in the way of carbs just before
or very early in your run.

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posted Dec-03-2005 11:28 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I keep the incline on the treadmilll at 0% incline for the majority of the miles. I go by HR, so 138 BPM is 138 BPM--the same exertion outside or inside. On hard days I'll put a .25 mile hill in at 3-4% incline every mile, and a short .15 hill at 1%. The run will average out to 1% incline for the whole run. I don't like the idea of running up a 1-1.5% incline for 10-20 miles. I like to work the flat muscles and my hill muscles,, still keeping below MAF.

--Jimmy

My Running World

---

so are you also doing a lot of your long run miles on the TM?

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posted Dec-03-2005 11:28 AM               

I was looking at your graph. An amazing 35% increase in speed between April 25 and Nov 7, from 12:00 to 7:48! Wow.

Could the slowing you are seeing now just be that you need some recovery and rest, and that your base isn't slipping? You have really let it all hang out lately.

I'm hoping to see 35%--I'll take 20%.

Great work.

--Jimmy

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posted Dec-03-2005 12:54 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:

so are you also doing a lot of your long run miles on the TM?

---

Only when my courses get covered with snow and ice. I don't like running on the roads--I run on a bike trail and on a hills course at a local state park. The bike trail is usually covered with snow for 6-8 weeks, but the state park plows the road there, and is usually bare pavement. No cars are allowed in the winter, so that's nice (not that there is a lot in the hot weather). Generally in January/February, I'll do some long runs on the TM out of necessity.

I just bought a treadmill, it's nice having one when I want it. I'm thinking of using it to do some 3-5 milers when I get in from teaching at night to go along with my morning runs. See if I can do some double sessions.

I've found that the treadmill works just as well as outside for training--I've made gains. Also doing at least one run a week on it reduces some impact.

--Jimmy

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posted Dec-03-2005 01:03 PM               

A miracle happened! After 52min, my HR dropped to 133-135 and I was able to stay under 141 for the rest of my run - meaning I actually got to run and not walk?! The first 30 min were brutal - couldn't even jog for more than a 1 min w/o going over 141, then it extended to 2m, 3m and then my heart just downshifted - I also noticed I was deeply belly breathing. The only problem is during the week it's hard for me to dedicate an hour to run due to family life....but I'm excited!! Is this how MAF works? Will I get to a point that my HR will "downshift" after only 15 or 10 minutes?

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posted Dec-03-2005 01:22 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Jesse,

I was looking at your graph. An amazing 35% increase in speed between April 25 and Nov 7, from 12:00 to 7:48! Wow.

Could the slowing you are seeing now just be that you need some recovery and rest, and that your base isn't slipping? You have really let it all hang out lately.

I'm hoping to see 35%--I'll take 20%.

Great work.

--Jimmy

My Running World

---

The slow down at low heart rates correlates directly with my
increase in running at higher heart rates. My resting heart
rate is still down in the 38-43 range. To be honest with you,
this is the best my legs have felt and I'm dead sure
I could run another marathon in a couple days and beat the
last one! However, my family has had enough and there aren't
any right nearby that I could do conveniently, so I'm holding
back!

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