posted Nov-16-2005 09:24 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Run Page Run:
I have read it only takes one month of speed running to build our anaerobic engine and that is as fast as we will get for that period of time,but it takes a minimum of three months to build our aerobic engine. Being a newbie, how can i use periodization if i do the Maffetone method? Should i use this program religously for three months now that i have gotten a HRM and then work on my anaerobic engine some for a month,then back to Maff? Thanks for any input.........Page

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I think you will maximize your benefits if you stick exclusively with
sub-MAF running for 3 months and then jump into the anaerobic
stuff (if you feel you need to). I think if you do much in the high
heart rate range while doing the aerobic workouts, you may not
achieve much aerobic benefit. The story may be different if you
focused your more intense runs as tempos, just below anaerobic
threshold.

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posted Nov-17-2005 09:23 AM            

For future comparison's sake:
Monday, 6.1k, ahr. 142, 6:49/km
Tuesday, 5k, ahr. 142, 34:00, no garmin so no pace
Wednesday, 8..5k, ahr 145, 6:42/km
Any apparent improvement in pace this week is related to learning how to run at a consistent heart rate and differences in weather--we get a lot of windy days at this time of year.

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posted Nov-17-2005 11:39 AM            

Could you tell me what my Maff is? I'm just curious...

-I'm 36 years old
-started walking in April, 2005
-started running in June, 2005
-run a 21-22 minute 5K
-never been seriously ill or any recent surgery
-was obese within the past year (50-60 pounds overweight), now just overweight (about 10-20 pounds)
-max HR seems to be 183 or a little higher
-min HR seems to be about 48-50

Anything else you need to know?

I'm going with the Hadd guidelines, but currently, I'm ramping up my mileage so I'm keeping all my runs pretty near the low-end of my aerobic zone. I'm doing good keeping my runs at <140 BPM. Pace is starting to drop a little, which is encouraging.

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posted Nov-17-2005 01:24 PM            

I am usually running under MAF, but I do like to throw in fartlek or tempo run here and there to make things more interesting and am wondering does it harm my base building effort ?

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posted Nov-17-2005 04:06 PM               

I'm taking it a lot slower this time out. Slower being the key word there.

I can keep my HR at or just above my MAF number, 136 by doing a VERY slow run, or by walking and running combined. The walking and running combined gives me better times than the slow jog but... is that the best thing to do at this point? I'm only in my first couple of weeks of this,"running" about 5 miles at a time, so I really don't have much data yet, but early numbers are roughly 16:00 - 16:45 / 138 and that seems WAY slow.

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posted Nov-17-2005 06:21 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by batfish:
Hi Jesse,

Could you tell me what my Maff is? I'm just curious...

-I'm 36 years old
-started walking in April, 2005
-started running in June, 2005
-run a 21-22 minute 5K
-never been seriously ill or any recent surgery
-was obese within the past year (50-60 pounds overweight), now just overweight (about 10-20 pounds)
-max HR seems to be 183 or a little higher
-min HR seems to be about 48-50

Anything else you need to know?

I'm going with the Hadd guidelines, but currently, I'm ramping up my mileage so I'm keeping all my runs pretty near the low-end of my aerobic zone. I'm doing good keeping my runs at <140 BPM. Pace is starting to drop a little, which is encouraging.

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You're fine going with Hadd guidelines - your conservative
MAF number would be 144 (just like mine). The lower the
better because the lower the heart rate the greater % of
aerobic vs anaerobic properties you use. As your heart
rate goes higher, the respiratory quotient goes up, which
means that the % of glycogen vs fat that you use for
fuel goes up, along with other properties, such as fast
twitch vs slow twitch fibers you use, etc. Stick with
144 for a max, and if you really want to get into it, try
to keep between about 134 and 139 for most, letting
it creep to 144 on the hills. That's just what I would do.

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posted Nov-17-2005 06:26 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by oneeighty:
I am not getting the part about loss of aerobic base once when runs are not under MAF ? MAF for me is 72% of MHR, and I can understand reasoning to stay under MAF while base building, but I do not understand why would aerobic base deteriorate if some of running is at higher rate - 75-82% which is also well in aerobic zone and just under LT ?

I am usually running under MAF, but I do like to throw in fartlek or tempo run here and there to make things more interesting and am wondering does it harm my base building effort ?

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Once you've built a strong aerobic base and you're capable of running
a decent pace at low heart rates, you probably won't wither away at
your aerobic base much or at all, as long as most of your mileage
is well into the aerobic regime. I've done a lot of races as of recent
which have been well over MAF and my base still seems to be strong.
However, if you started to do, say, 1/2 of your weekly mileage up
around or above anaerobic threshold, I think you would really start to
chisel away at it. Nonetheless, that's a possibility during race season,
so you just live with what you want to do and then go back to the
basics when you hit the next offseason.

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posted Nov-17-2005 06:29 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by blakester:
The walking and running combined gives me better times than the slow jog but... is that the best thing to do at this point? I'm only in my first couple of weeks of this,"running" about 5 miles at a time, so I really don't have much data yet, but early numbers are roughly 16:00 - 16:45 / 138 and that seems WAY slow.

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It's hard to say what's better, but Mark Allen says that in the initial
basebuilding for the season he even has to walk the gentle hills.
Many others have posted here saying that one of their big progress
milestones was the point where they no longer had to mix in walks,
so it's reasonable to assume that you can still make progress. My
guess would be that you'd probably do just as well either way. In
either case, good luck - I hope this brings a solution to your running
and avoiding injury.

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posted Nov-17-2005 07:40 PM               

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posted Nov-17-2005 07:42 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by blakester:
Thanks a lot fo the reply, one other questions. Do you also keep the HR in the same range when it comes to any cross training? I added a ride on a stationary bike getting the HR up to the 136 and keeping there for about an hour each session.

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Yes, during the basebuilding phase, I keep it under MAF for everything,
including biking and swimming and I saw similar improvements in
everything.

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posted Nov-18-2005 08:04 AM               

Am I confusing this with the MAF test sessions?

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posted Nov-18-2005 09:32 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
Stick with
144 for a max, and if you really want to get into it, try
to keep between about 134 and 139 for most, letting
it creep to 144 on the hills. That's just what I would do.

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Excellent! I'm already doing that, so I guess I had good intuition. On the flats, I'm generally around 135-139 and it'll creep up to 143-144 on the inclines.

It's getting so I can 'feel' even fairly subtle changes in HR. Anything below about 141 feels the same, but I can actually tell when my HR goes > 143. It's getting very easy to 'lock-in' to a given intensity, which I think has more to do with my quickening pace than anything else...

My last three runs (representing over 20 miles of running) all had an avg. HR of 139 and an avg. pace of 10:56... I'm amazed how precise you can train yourself to be!

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posted Nov-18-2005 09:59 AM               

I normally do runs of 4, 4, 5 and 7 - 8 each week with the two of the shorter runs being either a tempo run or mix in some type of interval work but not quite the intensity as before my goal races.

If I do all my runs below the MAF heart rate will this help me when March comes around as I think about getting in gear for racing in May? I did set personal bests this year in all my races but expected greater improvements as I did specific training plan when in the past I did not. I seem to have a hard time holding pace in 5K, 10K races (which probably everyone does).

Or would it still be ok to do one tempo run per week 20 sec. below 10K pace?

Just curious if this approach would work even on low miles. Thanks.

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posted Nov-18-2005 06:26 PM            

From Maffetone formula, all my runs should be under 150bpm. I'm doing my runs around 145. I plan to follow this for at least three months.

I was considering something like:

Monday - REST
Tuesday - 60 minutes
Wednesday - 60 minutes
Thursday - 60 minutes
Friday - REST
Saturday - 45 minutes
Sunday - 90 minutes

What do you think about this training plan?

Since this training is based on heart rate, how will it evolve in time?. I understand that I should be improving my times, and in consequence doing more miles but besides that, what other changes need to be done in a heart rate based training plan over time?

Thanks a lot for your help!!!

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posted Nov-18-2005 06:58 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by blakester:
When should I begin recording HR during my training runs. I've been doing a short (half mile) walk/jog getting the rate up to my MAF number before beginning monitor to record my training run. Do you include the warm up as part of that average?

Am I confusing this with the MAF test sessions?

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I just record it all always. I don't even subtract out times when
I'm stopping at lights, chatting with people, etc. I count it all
towards my pace. As a general rule, I try not to get too fixated
on MAF tests other than about every 3 weeks, but I do simply
take note of everything. I would normally do a warmup in a fixed
number of miles and record the average heart rate over it. If I'm
really serious about doing a MAF test, I'll start it on the 3rd mile
or so, but I've been pretty casual about it.

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posted Nov-18-2005 07:08 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Tchuck:
The MAF approach intrigues me. I seem to be more fast twitch oriented and love to run tempo and interval work outs and am curious to know if the MAF approach can help me even if I run 20 miles per week (in spring I up to 25 - 28 miles). Will it?

I normally do runs of 4, 4, 5 and 7 - 8 each week with the two of the shorter runs being either a tempo run or mix in some type of interval work but not quite the intensity as before my goal races.

If I do all my runs below the MAF heart rate will this help me when March comes around as I think about getting in gear for racing in May? I did set personal bests this year in all my races but expected greater improvements as I did specific training plan when in the past I did not. I seem to have a hard time holding pace in 5K, 10K races (which probably everyone does).

Or would it still be ok to do one tempo run per week 20 sec. below 10K pace?

Just curious if this approach would work even on low miles. Thanks.

---

I've seen some on here who have seen results with much lower
weekly mileage, but it's likely that more mileage = faster progress.
I would suggest that if you really want to go for it and see the kind
of results that have been described, you pick a time of the year
where you have absolutely no races going on and you can be
very patient. You really have to be willing to let your anaerobic
condition fizzle out a bit for the short term (trust me - you'll have
no trouble rebuilding it, assuming you even need to). I don't think
you will see your anaerobic threshold deteriorate (mine didn't, and
my vo2max improved from 54.3 to 62.5 over a period of 5 months,
with absolutely no speed work or tempo runs). Nonetheless, to
be successful at it, you really have to want to do it. If you're continously
improving and meeting all of your objectives using a different approach,
with your body feeling good with no issues, it may not be the time to
mess with something that works for you. On the other hand, it may
bring you up to a whole new level.

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posted Nov-18-2005 07:13 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by CaracasNewbie:
I've been reading a lot from the links provided, and I'm kind of dizzy ;-). There's a lot of information

From Maffetone formula, all my runs should be under 150bpm. I'm doing my runs around 145. I plan to follow this for at least three months.

I was considering something like:

Monday - REST
Tuesday - 60 minutes
Wednesday - 60 minutes
Thursday - 60 minutes
Friday - REST
Saturday - 45 minutes
Sunday - 90 minutes

What do you think about this training plan?

Since this training is based on heart rate, how will it evolve in time?. I understand that I should be improving my times, and in consequence doing more miles but besides that, what other changes need to be done in a heart rate based training plan over time?

Thanks a lot for your help!!!

---

sounds reasonable, as long as you're not bored with it. Over time
you should find that you can progressively move at slightly faster
paces at the same heart rate and you just want to go along with
that. There are really no prescribed changes you need to follow
over time, it's really in your hands to follow how you're feeling and
whether you want to set any goals for distances or particular races.
In theory, you can continue on the same plan forever, but at some
point, you'll stop seeing improvement at low heart rates at which
point, you may either continue because you enjoy it or start adding
some forms of speed work, such as tempos, vo2max intervals on
the track, or hill intervals, but still keep the bulk of your mileage
under MAF.

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posted Nov-19-2005 12:28 PM               

Is it ok to lift weights (anaerobic)? I have a passion for lifting weights. I generally do upper body twice per week (fairly heavy) and could get by on higher rep leg work once per week to keep the joints strong. Will once per week leg work negate the benefits of staying at a lower heart rate if in the 15 - 25 rep range?

My point is, I am willing to try something different but it would be extremely difficult for me to give up weights because I love the look of my body (I do have a big ego - ha!). I have already dropped from 190 to 175 by running more and balancing my weights - without weights I would drop to probably 155 and probably get a divorce because my wife would consider me scrawny.

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posted Nov-19-2005 03:44 PM               

I remember an article Benji Durden (2nd in Olympic trials in 80) had written in Runner's World back then and he said to throw out all of your 60 minute runs. Instead run 30 minute runs and as many 2 hour runs you can fit in a week, using the 30 minute runs for recovery. This is one example of boosting your aerobic function.

Another way is to run (or do something) every day and maybe 2x a day. Maybe you can bike or run to work if you live close enough and run at lunch. If you're tired, dress for running but go for a walk, it just might turn into a great run!

It's fun to be creative with your schedule and helps to battle burnout.

Dr. Ernst Van Aaken, who's training methods I followed back in the early 80's was very much like Maffetone. He would say run as much as you can, keeping your HR between 130-150. His famous quote was "Run daily, run slowly, eat like a bird and drink like a fish"!

More important than anything....have fun out there!

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posted Nov-19-2005 04:51 PM               

You bring up a good point about the long run. Currently I do one longer run per week of about 60 - 70 minutes which most don't consider a long run. When prepping for half marathon I work up to a 105 min. run. Maybe this offseason I increase my long runs by 5 min. each time until I am doing at least 1 2hr runs per week and maybe another longer one at a comfortable pace and the other 2 runs for 30 min. This also would only be 1 or 2 days per week of time issues with family and work etc. I know I need more base work because I have done everything hard in the past and certainly I can work in more harder stuff in spring. I am curious if this base work can help even at only 20 - 25 miles per week????

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posted Nov-19-2005 07:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Tchuck:
Jesse,

Is it ok to lift weights (anaerobic)? I have a passion for lifting weights. I generally do upper body twice per week (fairly heavy) and could get by on higher rep leg work once per week to keep the joints strong. Will once per week leg work negate the benefits of staying at a lower heart rate if in the 15 - 25 rep range?

My point is, I am willing to try something different but it would be extremely difficult for me to give up weights because I love the look of my body (I do have a big ego - ha!). I have already dropped from 190 to 175 by running more and balancing my weights - without weights I would drop to probably 155 and probably get a divorce because my wife would consider me scrawny.

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I lift weights also, heavy weights even. Don't worry about it.
I should say that I don't do any lower body because I don't need
to with all of the running, biking, and swimming I do. When I start
doing leg workouts, my legs get too big and I can't fit in my pants
anymore. Maffetone says don't, but I don't think it makes much
difference unless you do a large volume of intense training with
your lower body.

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posted Nov-19-2005 07:17 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by ultrasteve:

I'd like to add what Jesse has to say here. You might find it better to break up some of those 60 minute runs into different lengths and try to gradually increase your long run, maybe 10 minutes every other week or so. Increasing your long run will help boost your aerobic fitness better than any speed can!

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couldn't agree more

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posted Nov-19-2005 07:30 PM               

Alas, I was planning to do an easy marathon next weekend
to see if I could PR again, but with this nasty injury I got on
the Appalachian trail, I doubt I'll be able to.

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posted Nov-19-2005 08:49 PM               

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posted Nov-19-2005 09:05 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Boston124:
Jesse, what happened on the trail?

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The trail has a number of 1/4 to 1/2 mile stretches of nothing
but large jagged rocks to run on, sometimes at very steep
up and down slopes. It's not unusual for me to experience
several "ankle collapses" where my foot will sort of slip off the
side or just not get good traction and my foot will do a 90 degree
turn. I had a few of them that
were particularly bad and the results came back to haunt me
later. Nonetheless, while it hurt a lot to run, it hurt more to
walk. Fortunately, I had decided early on that I was going to
try to do the whole thing without walking, except through the
aid stations when I was eating or drinking. It seemed to pay off
for me as I think I'm a more efficient "wogger" than a walker,
so I was wogging up the really steep hills passing everyone that
was walking (which was most everyone in my vicinity on the
really steep hills).

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