posted Nov-01-2005 08:28 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by blakester:
I have a question I hope someone can help me with. I'm somewhat of a new runner, ran/walked my first Peachtree this past July and soon after tore my calf. PT has cleared me to run again, have done very little running the last 6 to 8 weeks and am starting slow this time. I have a HRM and need some advice. Would you suggest using the monitor to build my base back up to where I was prior to the injury? Using the Maffetone formula it would need to stay at 136, did a 30 min run tonight and could barely jog w/o it going over the 136. I just didn't really feel like it pushed me very much. Should I continue on this pace or get a base built back up and then begin training with the HRM.

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That's how it is for most everyone starting this approach. A dead slow
jog at first, walking even the easy hills. You really don't need to worry
about whether you felt like it pushed you very much. Believe me, there's
nothing wrong with that. I return from most 20 mile training runs feeling
like I hardly did anything at all and I'm doing them at a faster pace
than when I used to practically kill myself (this was not much more
than 1-1.5 years ago). I used to return from 20 mile training
runs on my last breath, the living dead, shut down from everything
else for the day.

I built my base from scratch after an injury that kept me from running for
3 months. This was the perfect way of doing it because it was the most
benign way of rebuilding without aggravating the injury.

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posted Nov-01-2005 08:41 PM               

Do you run Maffetone during race or come up with another plan? If so which plan?

Thanks - I am already seeing improvements after a couple of weeks running with this plan. Slow but still see better pace.

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posted Nov-01-2005 08:48 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
How do you approach races? Do you use a plan or do you just continue to run at your Maffetone pace?

Do you run Maffetone during race or come up with another plan? If so which plan?

Thanks - I am already seeing improvements after a couple of weeks running with this plan. Slow but still see better pace.

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I don't use Maffetone in races, nor did I even use it when I ran the
3 marathons on 3 days straight. I start with a very rough idea of the
heart range I believe applies to the particular distance and I use it as
general guidance. I really don't worry about it too much, other than to
make sure that I'm not going too slowly based on where my HR is and
to make sure I don't start rapidly approaching my max heart rate or
anaerobic threshold.

It's funny - I remember how excited I was about 4 months ago when
I first crossed 12 minutes per mile. Then, the thrill of 11 min/mile.
10 min/mile was a dream! 9 min/mi was euphoric. 8 min/mi I was
almost in shock.

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posted Nov-01-2005 09:34 PM               

Well, eventually 13:30 became 9:50 (16 weeks or so), and 12:30 became 9:10. Now they're both below 9:00 in 1.5 years. Building miles is extremely important as to how fast you'll improve. Just keep in your zone.

What I do now with my zones, is run a steady pace that has me peak at the limit by the end. So, I miight be starting 10-15 BPM below in the first miles.

Have fun. Trust it. You won't regret it.

--Jimmy

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posted Nov-01-2005 09:46 PM               

I started Maffetone today after reading the first half of the book and I am full of questions.

Background: I am 34 years old, 214 pounds, and run real slow. Obviously, I could stand to lose 40 or so pounds to get to a healthy BMI. I'm working on that.

My 5K PR is 24:21. I recently fnished my first marathon, Detroit in 4:48:17. Hit the wall hard around mile 20 or so. Heart rate from almost the beginning was 80%+ and 90%+ from mile 15 on. Goal was to hit 4:30 which seemed reasonable from the 5K PR time. I completed Hal Higdon's intermediate II program, completing all the runs including 3 runs of 20 (last one 22).

I would like to build up an aerobic base and improve upon my marathon time for next year's marathon.

Tonight I ran my first training run using what I read.

I started with a 15 minute walk, brisk walk, jog to warm up and get my heart rate up to the 120s or so. I started the treadmill up and gradually increased the speed (up to 6.3) until I pushed my heart rate up to 141 (mid way between 136 and 146). From there, I adjusted the speed as best I could to keep the heart rate around 141.

Questions:
1. Did I warm up enough? When I start the run (after warm up) should my heart rate already be in the 136-146 range?

2. When you post your splits is it time/max HR for the interval or is it time/avg HR for the interval?

3. Today's splits: 9:53/135, 10:18/141, and 11:00/141
that's time/avg HR for each mile.
Any conclusions? Am I doing this right? I've heard many people starting off running 13 and 14 minutes miles. Are these times too low? Obviously, the time is falling off quick. For a 6 mile run, I'll probably be in the 13-14 minute/mile range.
4. For the MAF test. What do you do differently than above? Is the difference to hold the HR at the max? Start with the heart rate at max upon completing warm up?

I apologize for all the questions. Reading the success of everyone else has me excited to get started.

Rich

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posted Nov-01-2005 09:48 PM            

Thanks so much for this encouragement.

I'm 4 weeks into Maffetone and while I admit I see improvement, its only in that I can at least slow jog nearly the whole time rather than frequent walk breaks to keep my heart rate down.

I really needed to see a post about the possibilities today.

I look forward to the 3 - 4 month period and hope for the 11 - 12 minute / mile days!

Thanks!

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posted Nov-01-2005 09:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:

It's funny - I remember how excited I was about 4 months ago when
I first crossed 12 minutes per mile. Then, the thrill of 11 min/mile.
10 min/mile was a dream! 9 min/mi was euphoric. 8 min/mi I was
almost in shock.

[/B]

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I was so discouraged by my times I stopped using my fancy Polar HRM and went back to my older model without the pace/distance monitor on it. You have to do whatever works!
I really should use it again to see how much I have improved as far as pace over the last two months.
Jesse- Yes, I’m guaranteed for life to enter the LV marathon. My marathon running friend made me do it! Would you believe that at age 53 I have never been to Las Vegas and I live in Southern California! So I decided that it was perfect. My first trip to Las Vegas, my first marathon, and the first running of the New Las Vegas Marathon! I will PR for sure. I just need to keep it slow so I can be sure and PR next year! And, of course, to keep up with the Maffetone training so I can get my aerobic pace down. Who knows, maybe next year I can BQ. (Ha-Ha) Cathy

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posted Nov-01-2005 10:03 PM               

Building a massive aerobic base will move that
wall out and eventually get rid of it completely (not to say the last 6
miles won't be HARD). I post time/avg heart rate for each split and
I try to make sure I don't go over MAF at all, so the max isn't all that
relevant. When I do the test, I try to get in at least 7 miles, but for
me the first few are warmup, so if you warm up for the first 20 minutes
or whatever, 3 or 4 should be indicative. I try to always do my MAF
tests in identical conditions, the only way I make sure of it is by doing
it on the treadmill in the same room each time. I also do just as you
are, trying to stay a good 5 beats below, at least for most of the run.
For a while, I was keeping 10 beats below and it really gave me a
boost in progress over a few weeks. I believe it was that period
that gave me the ability to run a reasonable pace at heart rates that
I couldn't even walk within a couple of months earlier.

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posted Nov-02-2005 08:25 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by StealthRunner:
Hello everybody! I haven’t posted in a while, so I thought I would let you know how I was doing so you wouldn’t think that I dropped off the face of the Earth!

Saturday I went out for my long run. I ended up at 22 miles. Most of the run I stayed within my MAF HR, but let it creep up by the end of the run. Since I run in a very hilly area, I walked the two steepest hills. I also did put in a few short walk breaks to help keep the HR down. Sunday I walked for 1hr 30min. I walked to one of the steeper hills and did power walking hill repeats with it. I let my HR get to MAF at the top. My legs felt a bit tired from my long run, but at least I wasn’t sore! Monday I went out for an easy run. I felt great! I got into a very easy nice wonderful pace and looked at my HRM. I was running at 10 beats below my MAF. I think I had a break threw! I tried running up the same hill I had done the hill repeats the night before. I hit the top at just over my MAF and did not walk a step. Of course it being Halloween, there were lots of kids out. A group of young boys passed me going in the opposite direction. The next thing I knew, two of them came running past me. I just had to join in. This old lady passed them up and kept going. I do have a nasty sprint. I did slow back down into my MAF for the way home. Life is good.
Also, I signed up for the Las Vegas Marathon in December. My goals are to just have fun and enjoy the ride. Cathy

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This is really neat! Make sure you get back to post about the Vegas Marathon! Good Luck!~

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posted Nov-02-2005 08:34 AM               

So...Jesse, does this mean you will try running your 50 miler faster? If you do, will it erode, somewhat into your aerobic base? I suspect you would have to be doing that ALOT for your base to be pulled from. One 50 miler at a higher HR wouldn't do that much to all the Maff running you have done.

Question: When you did your Maff runs, how consistent were you with your HR over the past many months?

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posted Nov-02-2005 09:57 AM            

Also, thanks for the kind words. Right now I have such mixed emotions about it. On one hand I’m so excited about it, but then again, I know I’m not really trained fully for it and know I won’t be doing my best. I was eyeing LA in March not Las Vegas!. But, at least it is a starting point. With my determination, if I toe the line, I will make it to the finish line even if I have to crawl!!! Cathy

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posted Nov-02-2005 10:27 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
That's how it is for most everyone starting this approach. A dead slow
jog at first, walking even the easy hills. You really don't need to worry
about whether you felt like it pushed you very much. Believe me, there's
nothing wrong with that. I return from most 20 mile training runs feeling
like I hardly did anything at all and I'm doing them at a faster pace
than when I used to practically kill myself (this was not much more
than 1-1.5 years ago). I used to return from 20 mile training
runs on my last breath, the living dead, shut down from everything
else for the day.

I built my base from scratch after an injury that kept me from running for
3 months. This was the perfect way of doing it because it was the most
benign way of rebuilding without aggravating the injury.

---

Thank you for the reply, as well as for this thread. I've been running now for almost a year, although not straight through due to the calf strain/tear, and have come to love the post on this site.

What schedule would you reccommend for mileage or times to get started back? I thought I'd use the 5k beginner on here but didn't want to overdo it. Prior to the injury, which occurred the second day I had the HRM and then my base was 4 miles with long runs around the 6 mile mark with a 10:40 pace.

Thanks again for all you help.

Blake

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posted Nov-02-2005 06:25 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:

So...Jesse, does this mean you will try running your 50 miler faster? If you do, will it erode, somewhat into your aerobic base? I suspect you would have to be doing that ALOT for your base to be pulled from. One 50 miler at a higher HR wouldn't do that much to all the Maff running you have done.

Question: When you did your Maff runs, how consistent were you with your HR over the past many months?

---

I will be running my 50 miler a bit faster, but still at low heart rate.
Low enough to where it won't likely have any negative effect on the
aerobic base. In fact, one of the key points I got out of the vo2max
test is, because of the aerobic base I've built, how high in heart rate
I can actually go and still use mostly aerobic properties. It's about
25-30 beats over the MAF heart rate I've been using. I definitely would
hope to take a good 1/2 hour or more off the time I got last year.
However, in a 50 mile race, there are so many things that can go
wrong, you never know if something else will bite you.

I was very consistent keeping under MAF over the past 5 months,
when I wasn't in a race. In the last 2 months or so, I've probably
incorporated "fast finishes" on about 5-10 of my runs and in the
last month, I've been letting my heart rate drift up when climbing
steep hills (although it really doesn't go up much at all anymore).
I'm confident that the months of dedication I put in to staying
strictly under really paid off. But, I don't have much to compare
to without being able to turn back the clock and try another way.
This is where it's a good time for others to post their own versions.

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posted Nov-02-2005 06:27 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by StealthRunner:

Boston- I have a feeling that Jesse is very strict about not going over his ceiling. I believe he runs most of his times at least 10 beats below his MAF. I remember him saying that he found his best progress at that lower HR. That is why I was so happy to be finally able to run 10 beats below my MAF. I have progressed some in my pace, but I have found that I have really improved more in being able to cover the mileage without having to walk. Now maybe I will start seeing better improvements since I hope I can keep my HR even lower. Stu Mittleman in his book "Slow Burn" talks about this. He did say that at first a runner would need to use walk breaks. After the runner could run the entire distance, he would start to see improvements in his pace. Also, Jesse has spent a lot of time x-training in his MAF zone. I'm sure all the extra hours with his heart working at that zone has helped. What a wonderful athlete!

---

You've certainly got it right. And, it's hard to say, but it's highly likely
that the accompanying swimming and biking really have contributed.

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posted Nov-03-2005 10:18 PM               

tri-newbies
on base-training

For those who don't like the Maffetone/Mark Allen one size fits
all formula, this identifies the most accurate zones for the individual
which accounts for fitness level and all other factors, i.e., as a percentage
of anaerobic threshold heart rate. The disadvantage is that you need
to know your anaerobic threshold heart rate, which you can only get
accurately from a vo2max test.

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posted Nov-04-2005 06:22 AM               

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posted Nov-04-2005 07:31 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by bluecru:
Is MAF type training appropriate for those of us who only run 15 miles a week or so? It seems as though everyone here is capable of marathon type distances and therefore their training runs are farther to start with. Would I have to up my weekly mileage to benefit from MAF? Or would another type training be appropriate?

---

that's ok, I'll respond here as well. There's always benefit from building
your aerobic system. It will likely take longer that way to see specific
results at low heart rates, but at 15 mpw, that's really enough of a base
to support any kind of speed work, so you're better off staying aerobic
and seeing where it takes you. Your body will be appreciative.

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posted Nov-04-2005 09:49 AM            

It often takes several seasons to see the result of sound base training if you are a novice athlete.

Maybe this is the reason why I have seen such slight pace improvement over the last two months. I will keep going and see what happens next month. Stealth

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posted Nov-04-2005 09:55 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by StealthRunner:
This is a quote from the link that Jesse posted above that I find very interesting:

It often takes several seasons to see the result of sound base training if you are a novice athlete.

Maybe this is the reason why I have seen such slight pace improvement over the last two months. I will keep going and see what happens next month. Stealth

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Yes, I felt that that article seemed to address a few of the questions
that none of the other literature did. I also like how it emphasized that,
while you may love running with a group, it won't be conducive to building
your base. That's obvious to anyone who does this form of running.

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posted Nov-04-2005 04:58 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:

that's ok, I'll respond here as well. There's always benefit from building
your aerobic system. It will likely take longer that way to see specific
results at low heart rates, but at 15 mpw, that's really enough of a base
to support any kind of speed work, so you're better off staying aerobic
and seeing where it takes you. Your body will be appreciative.

---

Ok, good enough. Should I keep the distance the same on every run? Say 5 days @ 3 miles a day using MAF? Or should I vary the run distances and stay in the MAF zone? Can I increase my weekly mileage also? I'd like to increase it. You mention that it will take longer but improve, willing to five a "guesstimate"? I know everyone is different. thanks.

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posted Nov-04-2005 05:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by bluecru:
Ok, good enough. Should I keep the distance the same on every run? Say 5 days @ 3 miles a day using MAF? Or should I vary the run distances and stay in the MAF zone? Can I increase my weekly mileage also? I'd like to increase it. You mention that it will take longer but improve, willing to five a "guesstimate"? I know everyone is different. thanks.

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You should mix up your distances. That's always a good thing, no
matter what form of training you are using. You should also mix up
your routes and even terrains if possible. I think that even at 15 miles
per week you should see some noticeable progress in 10-12 weeks
if you've been running a year or so, faster if you've been running longer
or if you have a history (track in high school or whatever), or perhaps
16 weeks if you're mostly a brand new runner. I basically started from
scratch at the end of May this year after 3 months off and I was just
running 2 or 3 miles at a time at first. However, I had been running
some pretty good mileage for about 1.5 years before that.

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posted Nov-04-2005 08:07 PM               

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posted Nov-04-2005 09:53 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by bluecru:
Ok, thanks for the answers. I do have a couple of questions and I hope they're appropriate. Say I do the MAF pace starting out at a 15 min/mile. Eventually, (whenever) I get the pace down to a 10 or 11 min/mile can one stay at that pace forever if they're comfortable? Is there a point of diminishing returns with the MAF? I'd like to work up to 25 miles a week running and run a half marathon next fall. Am I ahead of myself? Is this a realistic goal?

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There will likely be a point, each season, where you plateau. Assuming
that you followed all the rules and are not overtrained or racing a lot,
it means that you've done all the aerobic conditioning you can and to
go to the next step, you'll have to start incorporating speed work, but
still at a small percentage of your overall mileage. You're not ahead
of yourself and you have a personally reasonable goal. In fact, if you
did things right, you can even work up to a marathon next fall.

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posted Nov-06-2005 06:49 PM            

My plan is to do all my runs until Christmas under MAF, and then I will re-evaluate.

My target is 130-135 bpm - I am 44 years old and with no adjustments my MAF is 136.

Todays run (in the rain) was 2 hours at 134 bpm average. My pace was a sluglike 12:07/mile, starting at about 11:28 and rising slowly during the run. The last half hour was ainfully slow. I will try and do splits for next week (I just bought a new Garmin 301 and forgot to set it up for laps).

cheers all,

Bill

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posted Nov-06-2005 07:08 PM            

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