posted Oct-06-2005 11:24 AM               

The reason I have not been injured is because I have been running for about 30 years and 90% of my running is slow...very slow compared to what most runners do and I run most of my miles (hours) on trails. I went through the injury period when I started out a long time ago. Shin splints are part of becoming a runner ;-)

...and don't worry about going over your MAF, as you will find out after reading Slow Burn is that you can and will adjust your zones. You just don't want to go over it all the time...and you won't want to because it is much nicer running "in the aerobic zone". :-)

------------------
Steve

http://community.webshots.com/user/ultrastevep

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posted Oct-06-2005 01:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ultrasteve:
I love running at night! It is my favorite time during an ultra...

The reason I have not been injured is because I have been running for about 30 years and 90% of my running is slow...very slow compared to what most runners do and I run most of my miles (hours) on trails. I went through the injury period when I started out a long time ago. Shin splints are part of becoming a runner ;-)

...and don't worry about going over your MAF, as you will find out after reading Slow Burn is that you can and will adjust your zones. You just don't want to go over it all the time...and you won't want to because it is much nicer running "in the aerobic zone". :-)

Yep, I was born to be an ultra runner. I have had my share of start-up injuries. The worst was bone brusing. I almost gave running up, but I enjoy it too much. Last March, I was injured running at the same pace/elevation on a treadmill all the time. I was getting an overuse injury on my hamstring. I was running 45-50 mi/week. Then I slipped on some moss running downhill outside, and ended up with a partial tear. I was unable to run for four months. I started swimming with no kicking. I have found with the Maffetone training, I have been able to get my distance back, but I have only been able to increase my pace less than a minute per mile still keeping under MAF. I can not wait to get that book. This is something that I really want to do. Last year, I was just out of the age group medals for a 5K that I ran doing no speed work. I know that if I train right, I could be right up there. This lady has some killer speed in her when she gets going.

---

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posted Oct-07-2005 08:38 AM               

Well, LEITNER, is running another 26.2 in the Tahoe Triple today! Say prayers, and keep your fingers crossed for a great run for him today!!!

Let Maffetone Training do him well........

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posted Oct-08-2005 08:42 PM            

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posted Oct-08-2005 09:05 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by knurdle:
I've read this whole thread and have been following it with great interest. I'm hoping you guys can help me. Sorry for the somewhat long post.
I'm wondering if it's too early for me to start Maffetone training.
Some background.
I started running about 2 months ago, 28 years old. I'm about the right weight for my height, about 5'10" and 170-175lbs or so.
I started by following the C25k plan loosely on a somewhat accelerated schedule.
I've been fairly active for most of my life, used to play soccer, rode my bike alot, etc but it's been a few years since I've done anything on a regular basis.
I just started running because the beer gut was creeping up on me and I found that I really enjoyed running.
So I tried going out this week and trying to keep my HR low after reading this thread.
I've done a total of 12 miles this week with an average HR of 158 at a 13 min/mile pace.
I know 158 is higher than the 180-age rule but even at this pace, I end up walking about half of the miles if not more.
I'm beginning to think that maybe I should have a few more months of running under my belt before I start try this again.
I barely feel like I've worked up a sweat at the current pace I've been going.
Any advice?

---

Did you read Maffetone's book yet? If not, get it.

I, personally, don't think it is too soon to start Maff. Yes, you will be going slowly, but it won't be long until you are picking up a jog. And, yes, you may walk, a bit, power walk some, and really walk fast downhills, but you will get faster. Plus, you have to start somewhere. This is the time.

You will get stronger as you go, and hopefully avoid any injuries by using this approach.

Please, get the book, read it.

LEITNER will be back from Tahoe in a few days, and I know he will respond to your post. But, in the meatime, start Maffetone. Don't take it as set-back because you may have to walk. I did too. This is my second round of doing Maffetone, and I'm *jogging* along....slowly, but with progress. Remember, the longer it takes the stronger you will be!!!

Keep going........

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posted Oct-08-2005 09:45 PM            

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posted Oct-09-2005 10:45 AM            

Good luck to you, and congratulations on your new running program! - Stealth

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posted Oct-10-2005 02:00 AM               

10/6- tahoe triple race 1 - 26.2 mi - 4:03:12 - HRavg = 162
8:16/144, 8:08/155, 8:03/155, 8:00/157, 9:11/156, 8:54/156,
9:15/156, 9:03/156, 9:12/156, 9:15/155, 9:12/154, 9:24/156,
9:28/158, 9:37/161, 9:19/163, 9:05/165, 9:23/165, 9:24/162,
9:37/167, 8:30/167, 9:31/172, 8:46/171, 9:04/171, 10:10/172,
11:56/172, 12:14/172, 1:02/170

10/7- tahoe triple race 2 - 26.2 mi - 3:58:10 - HRavg = 158
8:22/143, 8:19/150, 9:23/156, 8:05/154, 7:47/153, 9:08/156,
7:42/154, 8:54/155, 8:47/155, 8:53/156, 11:21/148 (stopped for construction
for 4 minutes),
8:45/156, 9:14/157, 9:07/159, 10:25/161, 8:58/157, 8:33/160,
9:10/164, 9:23/161, 9:40/162, 9:13/163, 9:11/166, 9:28/164,
10:03/169, 8:57/162, 9:31/165, 1:37(9:16/mi)/165

10/8 - tahoe triple race 3 - 26.46 mi - 4:03:21 - HRavg = 158
9:04/150, 8:47/157, 8:20/157, 8:38/158, 8:48/159, 8:57/158,
8:52/156, 8:41/158, 9:00/157, 8:37/157, 9:10/156, 9:01/157,
9:00/158, 9:13/158, 8:06/158, 11:12/160, 11:57/162, 9:48/157,
8:33/152, 11:09/160, 8:03/156, 8:25/160, 8:15/162, 8:56/164,
10:04/160, 10:28/156, 4:03(8:45/mi)/161

Back later ...

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MyRunningLog

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posted Oct-10-2005 07:51 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Looks like some great new rounds of discussion going here! I'll
post some responses later when I get some time. I did post a
race report in the "run and race reports" area. For those curious,
here are my split times and avg heart rates for the race:
(I know everyone must be dying for these!)

10/6- tahoe triple race 1 - 26.2 mi - 4:03:12 - HRavg = 162
8:16/144, 8:08/155, 8:03/155, 8:00/157, 9:11/156, 8:54/156,
9:15/156, 9:03/156, 9:12/156, 9:15/155, 9:12/154, 9:24/156,
9:28/158, 9:37/161, 9:19/163, 9:05/165, 9:23/165, 9:24/162,
9:37/167, 8:30/167, 9:31/172, 8:46/171, 9:04/171, 10:10/172,
11:56/172, 12:14/172, 1:02/170

10/7- tahoe triple race 2 - 26.2 mi - 3:58:10 - HRavg = 158
8:22/143, 8:19/150, 9:23/156, 8:05/154, 7:47/153, 9:08/156,
7:42/154, 8:54/155, 8:47/155, 8:53/156, 11:21/148 (stopped for construction
for 4 minutes),
8:45/156, 9:14/157, 9:07/159, 10:25/161, 8:58/157, 8:33/160,
9:10/164, 9:23/161, 9:40/162, 9:13/163, 9:11/166, 9:28/164,
10:03/169, 8:57/162, 9:31/165, 1:37(9:16/mi)/165

10/8 - tahoe triple race 3 - 26.46 mi - 4:03:21 - HRavg = 158
9:04/150, 8:47/157, 8:20/157, 8:38/158, 8:48/159, 8:57/158,
8:52/156, 8:41/158, 9:00/157, 8:37/157, 9:10/156, 9:01/157,
9:00/158, 9:13/158, 8:06/158, 11:12/160, 11:57/162, 9:48/157,
8:33/152, 11:09/160, 8:03/156, 8:25/160, 8:15/162, 8:56/164,
10:04/160, 10:28/156, 4:03(8:45/mi)/161

Back later ...

---

YOU ARE MY MAIN RUNNING MAN WONDER !!!

FOR MY B-DAY WILL YOU RUN WITH MEEEEE ??

Seriously, I'm incredibly PROUD of you, LEITNER !! Was it wonderful or what???!!! Where are the pictures???

Gald your back safe-n-sound....

Ms. Illinois!!!

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posted Oct-10-2005 07:57 AM               

sure, I'll go fer a run with you!

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MyRunningLog

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posted Oct-10-2005 08:07 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ultrasteve:
Hi all...

This is my first post.

I have been reading this forum with great interest...I have been training using the Maffetone approach now for almost 2 years with some success. Running is easier, training is more enjoyable and I am injury free!

My background is that I am a former sub 2:50 marathoner/ sub 34-10K runner/ sub 17-5K er (back in the 80's) who has become an ultrarunner. I regularly run and enjoy running 100 mile trail runs in the Rocky Mountains at altitude. Some I have done is Wasatch in Utah and Hardrock in Colorado (I live in NH). So you can see that I have changed gears in my running life.

Now that I am finished with my year's racing, I am now returning to complete low HR training and it is difficult yet again to run this slow, although I am much faster at the HR than I was a couple of years ago. My reasons for starting was what I thought was a hamstring injury that actually turned out to be a herniated disc from a fall pinching the sciatic nerve. The Maff running allowed it to heal (with the help of a Chiropractor) and allowed me to train while it healed.

My question is has anyone here read or discovered "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman? I have been reading this book with a lot of interest because Stu is an ultrarunner and was the American record holder in the 100 mile and up distances. He switched over with Phil Maffetone's guidance to a low HR program and improved even more, sometimes winning international races.

Anyway, sorry for taking this a bit off topic, but thought this may interest all of you also.

Thanks...

---

thanks for the post Steve, I think it's dead-on topic! I'll have to
check out that book - sounds interesting. I think the longer the
distance, the more you get out of Maffetone training. I noticed
this week that I no longer feel anything different at mile 20, 22,
or longer.

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MyRunningLog

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posted Oct-10-2005 08:10 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by knurdle:
I've read this whole thread and have been following it with great interest. I'm hoping you guys can help me. Sorry for the somewhat long post.
I'm wondering if it's too early for me to start Maffetone training.
Some background.
I started running about 2 months ago, 28 years old. I'm about the right weight for my height, about 5'10" and 170-175lbs or so.
I started by following the C25k plan loosely on a somewhat accelerated schedule.
I've been fairly active for most of my life, used to play soccer, rode my bike alot, etc but it's been a few years since I've done anything on a regular basis.
I just started running because the beer gut was creeping up on me and I found that I really enjoyed running.
So I tried going out this week and trying to keep my HR low after reading this thread.
I've done a total of 12 miles this week with an average HR of 158 at a 13 min/mile pace.
I know 158 is higher than the 180-age rule but even at this pace, I end up walking about half of the miles if not more.
I'm beginning to think that maybe I should have a few more months of running under my belt before I start try this again.
I barely feel like I've worked up a sweat at the current pace I've been going.
Any advice?

---

Yup, it sounds very familiar. That's why I started on the treadmill,
at 3.7 mph! Most people can easily walk faster than that. Certainly
it wouldn't hurt to just run for a while and then give it a try a few
months down the road. It's all in what you have the tolerance for.

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MyRunningLog

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posted Oct-10-2005 01:34 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Yup, it sounds very familiar. That's why I started on the treadmill,
at 3.7 mph! Most people can easily walk faster than that. Certainly
it wouldn't hurt to just run for a while and then give it a try a few
months down the road. It's all in what you have the tolerance for.

---

Thanks for the advice. I don't have access to a treadmill and no matter how slow I've tried to run, I just can't keep my heart rate down. I just can't physically do it unless I walk. I've noticed that my heart rate is generally around 100-110 just before I go for a run. Just normal walking around the house and doing stuff. Just walking to the corner warming up, it gets up to 140 or so. I can easily get it up to 150 just walking at a good pace.

I think I'm going to continue running for maybe another month or so and maybe try this again when I'm in better condition.
I'm also going to try stealthrunners advice about walking the first mile and then running a mile and walking a few minutes.
Thanks for all the advice and I'll continue reading this thread with interest.

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posted Oct-12-2005 06:42 PM               

This morning I did a 3 mile run at < 140 HR and averaged just over
7:50/mi, so the base is still strong. Today was our 10k race at work and,
surprisingly, I got a new PR of 43:05 (sub-7, yeah!), beating my 45:21
in the same race a year ago. It was interesting running at a more
intense pace (most of the race at a HR between about 170 and 185,
up to 190 toward the end). In the past, I definitely would have fizzled
out in the last mile, but in this case everything felt strong. The HR
monitor probably kept me a bit on the conservative side, but that's
ok, with a PR of over 2 minutes. Now, I can say absolutely without
a doubt that the slow running has not made me slower!

Saturday I'll be running the Baltimore Marathon (I've been signed up
for it for a while, but I wasn't expecting to be able to run it a week
after the triple). Now I do wonder if I may even be capable of a PR
in it! After a "taper" of over 100 miles in the week before. We'll
see what happens. Number one goal is to have a strong finish and
to recover promptly afterwards. As always, times are secondary.

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MyRunningLog

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Oct-12-2005).]

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posted Oct-13-2005 08:12 AM               

So, I have a question. You started MAFF, full time in August or was it July? And it brought you to this point of running faster at lower HR, right.

It's taking me much longer....this 2nd time around. I'm finding I'm spending more time in plateau areas, and then breaking them, running again at a new pace, reading another plateau, and so-forth-n-so-on. Strange. But, that's me I guess.

Congrats, as well on the new PR in the 10K. Will you run Boston, or have you already?? That's a goal of mine, someday, before I'm 50!!

Did you run the triple in Pegasus??? A new pair each day??

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posted Oct-13-2005 03:38 PM            

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posted Oct-13-2005 06:43 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:
You are really, really one strong man, LEITNER!!

So, I have a question. You started MAFF, full time in August or was it July? And it brought you to this point of running faster at lower HR, right.

It's taking me much longer....this 2nd time around. I'm finding I'm spending more time in plateau areas, and then breaking them, running again at a new pace, reading another plateau, and so-forth-n-so-on. Strange. But, that's me I guess.

Congrats, as well on the new PR in the 10K. Will you run Boston, or have you already?? That's a goal of mine, someday, before I'm 50!!

Did you run the triple in Pegasus??? A new pair each day??

---

I really started in late May, although between May and June, I
mixed in a duathlon and triathlon, as well as 2 or 3 experimental
high heart rate runs. For the most part, I have spent 5 months
and a lot of miles. Mark Allen spent almost a year, but I think
there was progress the whole time. If you have plateaued, it may
mean that you
need to get in one or two runs a week of a more intense nature,
as Mark Allen suggests, see where that takes you, and then
get back to pure sub-MAF after a few months. You may have
been the opposite of me where you already had a good aerobic
base for your current running distance, but needed to build some
core speed. Just a possibility. It also could be that your meds
are making things a challenge. Do you have a group in the area
that has weekly races, such as 5ks and 10ks that you can
participate in? Those can provide a pretty good amount of
speed work without having to get to the track.

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posted Oct-13-2005 06:57 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by flynnmcmahon:
Hello everyone! Please Help me! I have read this whole thread and I finally ordered the Maffetone Method, got it last night and read every page. Quick history:
36 female, did my first marathon a year after giving birth to my 2 nd child, my first was 10 MONTHS earlier, so 2 in 10 months. After basically 3 years of no running (ran on and off as a teenager and young adult) I decided to run a marathon. "trained" on my own with lots of mileage, finished in a pathetic 5+ hours with an injury in the last 5 miles, took a month or so off, started running again and crashed big 7 miles into a 17 miler and havent been the same since. I have always been a slow runner, but that said and my slow 10-12min mile pace gives me a HR of around 155-160! on most days, sometimes lower. My bodyfat is pretty high, mid to high 20's and I cant seem to lose weight. I have lifted weights for years now and so I have a great muscular development though you cant see it under the layer of fat that I cant get off! In a wierd way, I always thought, wow I cant seem to go to fast running or stairmaster, etc...because I get outta breath so easily. Almost like I understood without actually taking my HR that I was anaerobic. Anyway, I get sick all the time, to the point that my immune system is officially "compromised" so says the Dr's and I'm scared this winter is going to be awful. Well, when I fell upon this thread and now reading his book, I feel like the skies have opened with my answer to health and better running. Not meaning to be a skeptic or anything though, I would ultimately like to try and get my bodyfat/weight down, if he is so against weightlifting, how do all those weightlifters get so ripped if their only burning sugar? I cant believe I have to jog @ 4.2-4.5 to keep my HR around 140 or lower and have that burn any fat, but I have faith. I am on the verge of not lifting another weight for 3 months minimum, is this really what I should be doing? Thank you!

---

Hi flynn! It seems like the main gist of your question involves
weightlifting. Assuming that's the case, my first response is that
I am a weightlifter and I've been doing it for almost 20 years now,
far longer than I've been running. I used to do very heavy weights
(600 lb squats, 350 on bench press, other similar), but now I just
do upper body workouts (with much less weight) because my legs
get too big if I do any leg workouts at all such that I need a bigger
size pants, which I'm really not interested in anymore. Nonetheless,
I've continued my upper body workouts all through the MAF training,
albeit at less intensity and time commitment than I used to. Has
it affected things? Who knows? All I know is that my progress
has been steady nonetheless. Hence, if it is something important
to you, I wouldn't hesitate to keep it going, if at a somewhat low
level. Now, my second question is, what
is your purpose for the weightlifting? It's not obvious that the
muscle-tone under fat is terribly important to you.
If you think it will help you
lose weight or burn body fat, it won't. I can assure you of that. (But
I think you understand that.)
Before running, I did about 12 hours of week of weightlifting, lots
of reps, and while I had good strength and muscles I had plenty
of fat on my butt and hanging over my stomach. Also, weightlifting
puts weight on, it doesn't take it off. If you are using weightlifting
to strengthen the neighboring muscle regions and hence avoid
injury, that's fine, but cycling and swimming can be much more
effective at that, and they will also help you lose weight. In either case,
good luck, and I wouldn't pay too close attention to many of Maffetone's
ancillary comments, but some you can keep in your hip pocket in
case things aren't going well.

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posted Oct-13-2005 07:39 PM            

I was running around 50mpw during my marathon training. Now Im lucky to eek out 2-3 miles before collapsing and thats at a slowwww rate.....thoughts?

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posted Oct-13-2005 08:58 PM               

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posted Oct-13-2005 09:21 PM            

[This message has been edited by flynnmcmahon (edited Oct-13-2005).]

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posted Oct-14-2005 05:20 AM               

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posted Oct-14-2005 07:55 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I really started in late May, although between May and June, I
mixed in a duathlon and triathlon, as well as 2 or 3 experimental
high heart rate runs. For the most part, I have spent 5 months
and a lot of miles. Mark Allen spent almost a year, but I think
there was progress the whole time. If you have plateaued, it may
mean that you
need to get in one or two runs a week of a more intense nature,
as Mark Allen suggests, see where that takes you, and then
get back to pure sub-MAF after a few months. You may have
been the opposite of me where you already had a good aerobic
base for your current running distance, but needed to build some
core speed. Just a possibility. It also could be that your meds
are making things a challenge. Do you have a group in the area
that has weekly races, such as 5ks and 10ks that you can
participate in? Those can provide a pretty good amount of
speed work without having to get to the track.

Thanks, Leitner. There are probably groups around here, but I can't adjust to their time frames. I wait until my last child gets the bus at 7:30 a.m. and head out the door for a run. So, I'm a *lone* runner, and probably perfer it that way....it's just what I'm used to.

However, I have done additional reading that sometimes a run at a faster HR can help you. I've read soooo....many books about training, HR books, and even advanced running (which I'm no where near !). I like Maffetone the best. However, you may have a point, that my aerobic base is fair and maybe a faster (higher HR pace run) run once-a-week, will stir things up.

As you are aware, I was trying to be real careful with this come-back from ITB. That is gone. But, I am being so careful, maybe too much so ? Not sure. I only run 5 days a week, with a max of 7 miles. I think it's time to increase that longish run, and mix a weekly shorter run with some faster HR's during that run. We shall see what happens.

Thanks for yoru reply. And yes, all those allergy/asthma meds. probably make my HR a bit higher than someone else's. However, I'm under control with that stuff, and feeling well!!!! *The silver lining!*

Hence, I'm headed out the door in 25 minutes!

Have a wonderful weekend!

me

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posted Oct-14-2005 06:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:
...

---

I wasn't suggesting that you find running groups - I'm a lone
runner as well, and I like it like that. However, our local
running club has weekly races that they offer (you still
run at your own pace - it's just a race for a measured
course). Perhaps there's one near you. It's a good way to
get something that approaches speed work in and helps your
skills at racing and, in general, pushing yourself.

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posted Oct-14-2005 07:18 PM            

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